AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Macross

Notices

View Poll Results: Macross Frontier: Sayonara no Tsubasa Movie Rating
Perfect 10 40 42.11%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 33 34.74%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 12 12.63%
7 out of 10 : Good 5 5.26%
6 out of 10 : Average 3 3.16%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 2 2.11%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 95. You may not vote on this poll

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 2011-04-29, 20:20   Link #2081
Tak
☭ автомат Калашникова ☭
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Neu Herzogtum Zeon
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
Macross the Ride is set before Frontier, yeah, but it's not really a prequel to it...
Is that like saying Macross Plus is not a sequel to the original Macross?

- Tak
__________________
- Flight to Brazil? $1,500
- FIFA Stadium Ticket? $500
- Witnessing Coach Joachim Lw crack a smile at the World-Cup Final? PRICELESS


There are some things money can't buy. For everything else, there is Master Card.


Get strong like ROCK! Not weak like Barack! Putincize now!

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
Tak is offline  
Old 2011-04-29, 20:24   Link #2082
Yot-chan
Minmay Guard
*Fansubber
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Tokyo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak View Post
Is that like saying Macross Plus is not a sequel to the original Macross?

- Tak
Hmmm...good point.

But still, I think labeling Macross the Ride as a "prequel" is a little misleading...
Yot-chan is offline  
Old 2011-04-30, 01:42   Link #2083
uranium235
Junior Member
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Sweden
Prequel .... I think it is not a accurate way to say it.

isn't that every happen after Macross crash on the earth?

I think it's good a idea to re-watch the Do You Still Remember The Love for me. catch up with you guys.
__________________

Macross 2012 30th
uranium235 is offline  
Old 2011-04-30, 03:40   Link #2084
magnuskn
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Age: 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
Me, I just marvel at the way they seem to continually give AruSheri fans almost exactly what they want to hear, but never quite manage to push it all the way.

There's a certain artfulness to it, I suppose.
Yeah, it's almost Whedonesque.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
I wouldn't call it trolling. Most people, upon first encountering Romeo and Juliet (to cite just one of countless examples), want the two young lovers to run away and live happily ever after. The fact that that's NOT what happens is what makes the story a classic.

Not saying that Frontier is on that same level (of either artistic merit or tragedy), but generally, listening to what portions of the audience want (even large portions) often spells doom for stories. Much better for the storyteller to do what he or she thinks is best. The audience will follow or it won't, but the work itself will be better off for it.

And yes, I'm dead serious about that, and yes, it's an issue I feel strongly about. I don't believe in giving people what they want, I believe in giving people what I want, and if they like it, too, then that's just gravy.
Hmm, I know what you are talking about, and I would like to refute it, in part. I called that "never giving the fans what they want" "Whedonesque", and with good reason. Joss Whedon had almost perfected the art of withholding the most obvious and desired end goals for his audience in Buffy the Vampire Slayer, often not bringing together couples that were widely desired. He instead opted in most parts for completely different outcomes, which were interesting on their own, yet still quite frustrating. The problem with doing that serially ( and I postulate that Kawamori is starting to do that with things like whisking Alto away with the Vajra queen, which was quite similar to what happened to Shin in Zero ) is that fans start to get cynical about your work after a while, because they know they can expect to be trolled at the end. I think you could also call it "dangling a carrot in front of a horse", with the pay-off never happening.

For me, that is a problem. When unpredictability itself becomes predictable, it is difficult to trust the product of a writer. Which, at least in my case, leeches off a considerable amount of fun from reading/watching it.
__________________

Last edited by magnuskn; 2011-04-30 at 03:55.
magnuskn is offline  
Old 2011-04-30, 10:32   Link #2085
Yot-chan
Minmay Guard
*Fansubber
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Tokyo
Quote:
Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
Hmm, I know what you are talking about, and I would like to refute it, in part. I called that "never giving the fans what they want" "Whedonesque", and with good reason. Joss Whedon had almost perfected the art of withholding the most obvious and desired end goals for his audience in Buffy the Vampire Slayer, often not bringing together couples that were widely desired. He instead opted in most parts for completely different outcomes, which were interesting on their own, yet still quite frustrating. The problem with doing that serially ( and I postulate that Kawamori is starting to do that with things like whisking Alto away with the Vajra queen, which was quite similar to what happened to Shin in Zero ) is that fans start to get cynical about your work after a while, because they know they can expect to be trolled at the end. I think you could also call it "dangling a carrot in front of a horse", with the pay-off never happening.

For me, that is a problem. When unpredictability itself becomes predictable, it is difficult to trust the product of a writer. Which, at least in my case, leeches off a considerable amount of fun from reading/watching it.
Well...the simple answer to that is: write your own story and end it however YOU see fit.
Yot-chan is offline  
Old 2011-04-30, 10:39   Link #2086
magnuskn
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Age: 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
Well...the simple answer to that is: write your own story and end it however YOU see fit.
Not a valid answer to a complaint about writing styles.
__________________
magnuskn is offline  
Old 2011-04-30, 10:47   Link #2087
Yot-chan
Minmay Guard
*Fansubber
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Tokyo
Quote:
Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
Not a valid answer to a complaint about writing styles.
What do you mean? It's perfectly valid. Whedon has a formula. You think you know a better way. So give it up and strut your stuff!
Yot-chan is offline  
Old 2011-04-30, 10:47   Link #2088
musouka
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
Not saying that Frontier is on that same level (of either artistic merit or tragedy), but generally, listening to what portions of the audience want (even large portions) often spells doom for stories. Much better for the storyteller to do what he or she thinks is best. The audience will follow or it won't, but the work itself will be better off for it.
The trick to being an entertaining writer is twofold.

1. Make the reader want what you are planning to do.
2. Make them believe there's a chance it won't happen.

Do that and you will have happy fans who are thrilled that they were "right" but also had enjoyable tension in how (un)sure they were of the outcome.
__________________
雨の日も晴れの日も
いつの日も愛してた
それだけは 今もまだ
ずっと変りはしない
musouka is offline  
Old 2011-04-30, 10:51   Link #2089
Yot-chan
Minmay Guard
*Fansubber
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Tokyo
Quote:
Originally Posted by musouka View Post
The trick to being an entertaining writer is twofold.

1. Make the reader want what you are planning to do.
2. Make them believe there's a chance it won't happen.

Do that and you will have happy fans who are thrilled that they were "right" but also had enjoyable tension in how (un)sure they were of the outcome.
So again, everyone WANTS Romeo and Juliet to die, but is afraid they'll survive? I don't buy it. Besides, who says the audience has to leave happy?

But back to important topics, the gashapon machine is being less trollish, but still slightly so. Today, it gave me the Ranka-Type YF-29. Not what I wanted, but at least it's one I didn't previously have.
Yot-chan is offline  
Old 2011-04-30, 10:59   Link #2090
magnuskn
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Age: 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
What do you mean? It's perfectly valid. Whedon has a formula. You think you know a better way. So give it up and strut your stuff!
No, saying "write your own stuff" is just a device to avoid engaging with the actual argument. It's no better than "Oh, yeah?" and "Up yours!".
__________________
magnuskn is offline  
Old 2011-04-30, 11:07   Link #2091
Yot-chan
Minmay Guard
*Fansubber
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Tokyo
Quote:
Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
No, saying "write your own stuff" is just a device to avoid engaging with the actual argument. It's no better than "Oh, yeah?" and "Up yours!".
Don't tempt me.

But no, it's not an evasion. It's called "putting your money where your mouth is."
Yot-chan is offline  
Old 2011-04-30, 11:14   Link #2092
magnuskn
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Age: 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
Don't tempt me.

But no, it's not an evasion. It's called "putting your money where your mouth is."
I'm just one dude in Germany, just as you are one in Japan and the rest of us are elsewhere. Nobody of us is famous and as such we are all only giving comments from the peanut gallery. And it's not wrong nor presumptuous for me to be saying that I personally don't like certain penchants by a certain group of writers.

Also, if you think only "true writer" opinions are valid, where are your widely accredited novels?
__________________
magnuskn is offline  
Old 2011-04-30, 11:21   Link #2093
Yot-chan
Minmay Guard
*Fansubber
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Tokyo
Quote:
Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
I'm just one dude in Germany, just as you are one in Japan and the rest of us are elsewhere. Nobody of us is famous and as such we are all only giving comments from the peanut gallery. And it's not wrong nor presumptuous for me to be saying that I personally don't like certain penchants by a certain group of writers.

Also, if you think only "true writer" opinions are valid, where are your widely accredited novels?
Hey, I'm not the one criticizing here.

And yeah, while I've published no novels, I have had stories published in literary magazines...for what that's worth (not much).

But hey, if you want to have a discussion about (say) the live-action Transformers, I'll tell you EXACTLY why I thought it was crap, and I'll show you how I would've done it differently, and I'll even explain why my version is better.
Yot-chan is offline  
Old 2011-04-30, 11:32   Link #2094
magnuskn
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Age: 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
Hey, I'm not the one criticizing here.

And yeah, while I've published no novels, I have had stories published in literary magazines...for what that's worth (not much).

But hey, if you want to have a discussion about (say) the live-action Transformers, I'll tell you EXACTLY why I thought it was crap, and I'll show you how I would've done it differently, and I'll even explain why my version is better.
I was criticising a certain school of writing, which avoids having satisfactory pay-offs to their storyline by throwing unexpected curveballs at the audience. Writers of that school are so invested in being "unpredictable" and "non-traditional" that getting such an ending becomes predictable with them. And I expressed how for me that doesn't work very well, because I like a storyline with good foreshadowing and strong emotional links to come to its logical conclusion, because that seems to me to be the better emotional pay-off.

I really don't know how that merits such a dismissive "Why don't you write your own stuff?!?" response.
__________________
magnuskn is offline  
Old 2011-04-30, 11:37   Link #2095
Yot-chan
Minmay Guard
*Fansubber
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Tokyo
Quote:
Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
I was criticising a certain school of writing, which avoids having satisfactory pay-offs to their storyline by throwing unexpected curveballs at the audience. Writers of that school are so invested in being "unpredictable" and "non-traditional" that getting such an ending becomes predictable with them. And I expressed how for me that doesn't work very well, because I like a storyline with good foreshadowing and strong emotional links to come to its logical conclusion, because that seems to me to be the better emotional pay-off.

I really don't know how that merits such a dismissive "Why don't you write your own stuff?!?" response.
Honestly, I'm not being dismissive...but I am trying to stir the budding creator in you.

If you'd rather I stifle your creative juices instead, just let me know.
Yot-chan is offline  
Old 2011-04-30, 11:40   Link #2096
magnuskn
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Age: 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
Honestly, I'm not being dismissive...but I am trying to stir the budding creator in you.

If you'd rather I stifle your creative juices instead, just let me know.
I'm rather occupied writing papers for college at the moment. When I get my magister, have a steady job and then have time to write a book ( probably about socio-economic history ), I'll get back to you. Until then, I'll just keep to writing semi-short postings on message boards.
__________________
magnuskn is offline  
Old 2011-04-30, 11:44   Link #2097
Yot-chan
Minmay Guard
*Fansubber
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Tokyo
Quote:
Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
I'm rather occupied writing papers for college at the moment. When I get my magister, have a steady job and then have time to write a book ( probably about socio-economic history ), I'll get back to you. Until then, I'll just keep to writing semi-short postings on message boards.
Until then, I've got a Ranka YF-29 gashapon...do you want it?
Yot-chan is offline  
Old 2011-04-30, 11:48   Link #2098
magnuskn
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Age: 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
Until then, I've got a Ranka YF-29 gashapon...do you want it?
I'm fine. I think my only model of something I got is a mini-Minas Tirith, which came with the extended version of Return of the King. Collecting miniatures and stuff really isn't my thing ( hides old trading cards ^^ ).
__________________
magnuskn is offline  
Old 2011-04-30, 14:13   Link #2099
Thess
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
So again, everyone WANTS Romeo and Juliet to die, but is afraid they'll survive? I don't buy it. Besides, who says the audience has to leave happy?
Romeo and Juliet are frankly a terrible example. I haven't met anyone who liked that couple in all seriousness. I read the play WISHING they would die for being so ridiculously stupid (and forced me to read their blandness in high school when King Lear was a superior tragedy). Some people even say the play is a cautionary satire instead of a tragic romance.

The only place I like them was that crack Gonzo Anime Romeo x Juliet because they were the OPPOSITE of their play counterparts.
__________________

"Who would understand you after I die? Who else would march forward by your side?"
Thess is offline  
Old 2011-04-30, 15:03   Link #2100
Yot-chan
Minmay Guard
*Fansubber
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Tokyo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thess View Post
Romeo and Juliet are frankly a terrible example. I haven't met anyone who liked that couple in all seriousness. I read the play WISHING they would die for being so ridiculously stupid (and forced me to read their blandness in high school when King Lear was a superior tragedy). Some people even say the play is a cautionary satire instead of a tragic romance.

The only place I like them was that crack Gonzo Anime Romeo x Juliet because they were the OPPOSITE of their play counterparts.
Again, as I said before, it's merely one of countless examples I could provide. Your suggestion of King Lear is a good one, where for a while in the 18th century, a new, happier ending was provided for the play, and was used for a while...but it didn't last.

Musouka's theory of how to be "an entertaining writer" is interesting, but if you look at the works that have endured throughout the centuries, you'll find very few that fit that mold.
Yot-chan is offline  
Closed Thread

Tags
mecha, military, movie, romance, science fiction, song

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:19.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.