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View Poll Results: Macross Frontier: Sayonara no Tsubasa Movie Rating
Perfect 10 40 42.11%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 33 34.74%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 12 12.63%
7 out of 10 : Good 5 5.26%
6 out of 10 : Average 3 3.16%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 2 2.11%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 95. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2011-10-29, 22:42   Link #2801
Kirarakim
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Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
As for "flat," I don't agree. He gave some good contribution to lovely moments in the series that started the "action" needed (and I don't refer to the triangle here).
Well okay but let's just say I tend to use the words "boring & flat" together. I'll admit I didn't really think of my word usage too carefully.

Also I shouldn't have said that Movie!Alto had better development than TV!Alto just that I didn't end up caring about TV!Alto's development because I personally found him to not be an engaging character.

And yes I didn't like how Alto's response to the war was written in the TV series. It wasn't his fault in the TV series but an Alto who had the right information about the Vajra early on (and he still got to show some doubt in the movie too) & could actually act on it becomes a much more likable character to me.
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Old 2011-10-29, 22:59   Link #2802
Tak
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Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
Wait...Tak, did you find a scan or something of the original Japanese interview? If so, please share!
I recall an interview a while back where Kawamori simply commented on Alto having folded as opposed to being obliterated in a small continental explosion.

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Old 2011-10-29, 23:24   Link #2803
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Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
Yes.
You know, they focused so much on Sheryl that they left out Alto's progression as a character. He seemed more tied to Sheryl like a boy to his mother, depending on her for reasons unknown, and even opted to quit after Sheryl's arrest. If not for Ozma talking him back into fighting, I would've called him a "mama's boy" with Sheryl for letting her arrest hurt him that bad. He made the same exact implies from the series of being upset with Sheryl's betrayal (just like Ranka) and looked at artifacts that reminded him of said girl. I felt series Alto shine through right then.
Considering how much he was falling for her, wouldn't it be unrealistic for him not to take what happened pretty hard? How do you expect a person to react when someone important to them is accused of a serious crime, they put faith in that person's innocence, and then something happens that makes them think that person is actually guilty?
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Old 2011-10-29, 23:43   Link #2804
Yot-chan
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Originally Posted by Tak View Post
I recall an interview a while back where Kawamori simply commented on Alto having folded as opposed to being obliterated in a small continental explosion.

- Tak
Yes, but again...we have the purported translation of the interview, but not a scan (or even a transcript) of the ACTUAL interview, right?
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Old 2011-10-30, 00:13   Link #2805
karice67
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Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
Yes, but again...we have the purported translation of the interview, but not a scan (or even a transcript) of the ACTUAL interview, right?
From what I can tell from various 2ch archives, that was the transcript. It seems to have been replicated all over 2ch.

In the third link, someone also posted this:
Quote:
最低人類0号[sage]投稿日:2011/04/09 19:30:00 ID:STaoB/wO0
アニメディアの記事、自分も見て来たぞ~ [=> I've just gone and read the Animedia article myself~]
生存確定(アルト)復活確定(シェリル)おめでとう!帰還もほぼ確定だなこりゃ。
そしてランカもやっぱ強くなってたんだな成長確定オメ!

結局、ランカはアルラン厨なんかと違って余程大人で強かったわけだな。
いいかげん愛しのランカを見習えばいいのに遺伝子BABA&SION
To 'non-Japanese readers': sorry, I think it's stll too early after the sub release to put up translations of the contents (though if you really want to know what this particularly controversial article says, follow the forum link above).

Also, one part of the interview was confirmed by a scan, another part sort of confirmed in the Official Complete Book Interview, and the 3rd part sort of confirmed in the interview in the Sheryl manga, 3rd volume.

But if we all still want to check, I can get the magazine it was supposedly in with the help of a friend in Japan (it's available through amazon marketplace...)...though I might try something else first...

Description of relevant contents as follows - please google if you want to check:
Quote:
物語の真相に迫る特集
謎解きはおやつのあとで
劇場版マクロスF ~サヨナラノツバサ~ ●STAR DRIVER 輝きのタクト ●STEINS;GATE
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Last edited by karice67; 2011-10-30 at 01:10.
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Old 2011-10-30, 00:23   Link #2806
LoveMeKags
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Originally Posted by Darthtabby View Post
Considering how much he was falling for her, wouldn't it be unrealistic for him not to take what happened pretty hard? How do you expect a person to react when someone important to them is accused of a serious crime, they put faith in that person's innocence, and then something happens that makes them think that person is actually guilty?
Actually, at that time, I'm sure Alto wasn't sure that Sheryl was innocent. They had the proof, as Mishima said, via Sheryl's fold quartz. And he was ready to throw out the matching earring too, meaning he didn't quite believe she was innocent. It is not about Sheryl being accused but holding the evidence to back it up. And, in this case, Ranka had good means to say that Sheryl hurt Alto by lying to him and deceiving him, regardless if she'd meant to or not; because that's how it played out. And Alto is pretty much going "did she really have feelings for me or were those fake" and "was it all just a lie?" Alto is hardly thinking about his feelings for her at this moment but rather trying to uncover if she is innocent or truly was deceiving him. Notice that when Ranka opts to save Sheryl, he decides to take Ranka's word that Sheryl is innocent and helps rescue her. Up until that point, Alto made no move to help or otherwise prove Sheryl's innocence.

That was a good triangle moment too, because it showed how strong their friendship is at this point, something that was misplaced in the series. Although, I digress, Ranka's "I will rescue Sheryl" scene is similar to Sheryl's "rescue Ranka" scene; both girls requesting his help to save the other in a similar fashion of break them out.
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Old 2011-10-30, 00:36   Link #2807
Darthtabby
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Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
Actually, at that time, I'm sure Alto wasn't sure that Sheryl was innocent. They had the proof, as Mishima said, via Sheryl's fold quartz. And he was ready to throw out the matching earring too, meaning he didn't quite believe she was innocent. It is not about Sheryl being accused but holding the evidence to back it up. And, in this case, Ranka had good means to say that Sheryl hurt Alto by lying to him and deceiving him, regardless if she'd meant to or not; because that's how it played out. And Alto is pretty much going "did she really have feelings for me or were those fake" and "was it all just a lie?" Alto is hardly thinking about his feelings for her at this moment but rather trying to uncover if she is innocent or truly was deceiving him. Notice that when Ranka opts to save Sheryl, he decides to take Ranka's word that Sheryl is innocent and helps rescue her. Up until that point, Alto made no move to help or otherwise prove Sheryl's innocence.

That was a good triangle moment too, because it showed how strong their friendship is at this point, something that was misplaced in the series. Although, I digress, Ranka's "I will rescue Sheryl" scene is similar to Sheryl's "rescue Ranka" scene; both girls requesting his help to save the other in a similar fashion of break them out.
So what's your beef with Alto getting down in the dumps about things then? You just more or less admitted that it made sense...
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Old 2011-10-30, 00:45   Link #2808
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Originally Posted by Darthtabby View Post
So what's your beef with Alto getting down in the dumps about things then? You just more or less admitted that it made sense...
When I said it didn't make sense, I was referring to why they (meaning the story writers) gave a similar situation for both girls (in series and movies) and Alto acted the same. There should have been SOME change; but instead, both girls had to tell him to rescue the other in said situations, he didn't take action. That's what I meant.
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Old 2011-10-30, 01:13   Link #2809
Darthtabby
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Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
When I said it didn't make sense, I was referring to why they (meaning the story writers) gave a similar situation for both girls (in series and movies) and Alto acted the same. There should have been SOME change; but instead, both girls had to tell him to rescue the other in said situations, he didn't take action. That's what I meant.
As long as it made sense under the individual circumstances of each situation, I don't see it as a problem. But at least that clears up the confusion.
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Old 2011-10-30, 01:15   Link #2810
pinoy78
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I see that scoring is out...I gave SnT a 9/10.

As for Macross movies go it's right up there with DYRL.
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Old 2011-10-30, 01:26   Link #2811
Yunbo
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I finally got to finish watching the movie, it was so worth the wait.

Although I would have like to actually SEE Alto and Sheryl happy together, the ending was beautiful.

And so, now that the triangle is over I wonder what the next Macross Series will be about. XD
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Old 2011-10-30, 01:32   Link #2812
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Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
There should have been SOME change; but instead, both girls had to tell him to rescue the other in said situations, he didn't take action. That's what I meant.
Errmm dont mean to butt in but did technically Captain Wilder said to rescue Sheryl since she is still their client. . .Ranka only told the SMS what Brera told her, she never actually told him to save her. . .
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Old 2011-10-30, 01:37   Link #2813
LoveMeKags
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Originally Posted by Darthtabby View Post
As long as it made sense under the individual circumstances of each situation, I don't see it as a problem. But at least that clears up the confusion.
Yes.

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Originally Posted by Yunbo View Post
Errmm dont mean to butt in but did technically Captain Wilder said to rescue Sheryl since she is still their client. . .Ranka only told the SMS what Brera told her, she never actually told him to save her. . .
Ranka said she'd do it. Alto's face in that scene was of concern. Kinda like this () but more of a concerned expression like "you'll risk your life when she betrayed us?" But regardless, Alto never took action before Ranka said "I have an idea." Thus, a good triangle build between them, the two girls understanding each other more than the boy... common. Which, by the way, the cut from that scene straight to the concert was funny. I went "what is it?" for but a moment.
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Old 2011-10-30, 01:54   Link #2814
karice67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
Ranka said she'd do it. Alto's face in that scene was of concern. Kinda like this () but more of a concerned expression like "you'll risk your life when she betrayed us?" But regardless, Alto never took action before Ranka said "I have an idea." Thus, a good triangle build between them, the two girls understanding each other more than the boy... common. Which, by the way, the cut from that scene straight to the concert was funny. I went "what is it?" for but a moment.
Please, LMK, can we not get into another debate about who understands whom and whatnot?

To me, it's a matter of what the character could plausibly do at that point.

In the movie, Alto was effectively powerless in that situation - how in the world could he have proposed an effective plan to break Sheryl out? The plan HAD to come from Ranka - not from Alto, or from any other character - because she was the key to it actually working.

Also, had anyone else proposed it, there would have been a "but that's too dangerous for Ranka!" discussion. So, for simplicity's sake, Ranka does it. Which is a good thing for her character, but, IMHO, doesn't say anything particularly negative about Alto.

So please, let's not go there.
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Old 2011-10-30, 01:55   Link #2815
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Take my love, take my land
Take me where I cannot stand
I don't care, I'm still free
You can't take the sky from me
Take me out to the black
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Burn the land and boil the sea
You can't take the sky from me
There's no place I can be
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Old 2011-10-30, 01:58   Link #2816
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As much as there's plenty in this movie that's great and worthy of attention, I still can't seem to move past the whole "what did Sheryl know?" issue. My perspective on the issue has changed multiple times since I first started watching the movie a little over 24 hours ago. I think I'm now back in the "confused and uncertain" state. Seriously... Grace tells Sheryl that she can survive if she gets a transfusion of Ranka's blood, but later Sheryl tells Ranka Galaxy plans to put Ranka's organs in her -with no indication whatsoever of when and where she got that info. Is one a translation error? Is there a plot hole? Also Sheryl's behaviour surrounding Ranka' concert at times seems to suggest she's in on something not so nice, but on the other hand Grace seems to be ordering her people to capture both girls, which suggests Sheryl's cooperation was less than certain.

I'd really like to love the movie version of Sheryl -I see a lot to like. But this is just too big for me to ignore. Granted, at one time I was hugely bothered by TV Sheryl's bitchy prima donna act in episode one, but later I more or less accepted that yes, she got upset about having to work with amateurs and got nasty about it. But accepting that someone can get bitchy sometimes and accepting something with moral implications of the kind of magnitude this issue possesses are two different things.
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Old 2011-10-30, 01:59   Link #2817
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Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
Please, LMK, can we not get into another debate about who understands whom and whatnot?

To me, it's a matter of what the character could plausibly do at that point.

In the movie, Alto was effectively powerless in that situation - how in the world could he have proposed an effective plan to break Sheryl out? The plan HAD to come from Ranka - not from Alto, or from any other character - because she was the key to it actually working.

Also, had anyone else proposed it, there would have been a "but that's too dangerous for Ranka!" discussion. So, for simplicity's sake, Ranka does it. Which is a good thing for her character, but, IMHO, doesn't say anything particularly negative about Alto.
I understand all of that, and I wasn't trying to make it sound negative towards Alto but rather the creators for making such similar situations with questionable outcomes. That's a bit on the troll side.

I wasn't trying to exactly single out the character either but point out the similarities and how said character reacted in both.

And actually, Alto was ready to quit the S.M.S. after Sheryl so-called "betrayed" him. That was his plan. Alto never was good at coming up with a plan. Notice that all other characters come up with the plans and he follows them. He's more of the type to just jump into something and follow others directions (though he hates that, it's what he does). That could, and I'll just put this out there, be part of his kabuki days kicking in: following a script.

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Originally Posted by Darthtabby View Post
Seriously... Grace tells Sheryl that she can survive if she gets a transfusion of Ranka's blood, but later Sheryl tells Ranka Galaxy plans to put Ranka's organs in her -with no indication whatsoever of when and where she got that info. Is one a translation error? Is there a plot hole?
Actually, due to the cut in the film, it is easy to suggest that Grace tells Sheryl more about the severity of the situation whilst Ranka is with Alto on the beach. Sheryl even has a little flashback of it in the car, which is to suggest that Grace has told her the truth (or her version of it).

Quote:
Also Sheryl's behaviour surrounding Ranka' concert at times seems to suggest she's in on something not so nice, but on the other hand Grace seems to be ordering her people to capture both girls, which suggests Sheryl's cooperation was less than certain.
I actually noticed this too. Sheryl's attitude at Ranka's concert was a little foreboding to me that Sheryl was actually out to get Ranka (mostly because she was holding her hat and looking like "I hate her"). But I think she was trying to figure out if there was a loophole rather than actually watching Ranka's concert. I could easily say that Sheryl was surprised that Ranka figured she needed cheering up.

Grace tells Sheryl in the room (back during Alto and Ranka's beach date) that she signed up to be a tool until the real person who could communicate with the Vajra was found (or Ranka, in this case) and once said person is found, Sheryl is no longer needed. However, for Grace to mention there's a way to save her, I have a feeling that outside of her implant, Grace had formed a mother/daughter relationship with Sheryl. But remember that Grace with the implant and Grace without the implant are two different beings, they both have different agendas. Grace with the implant is out to destroy Sheryl and take Ranka, therefore carry out the plans from the series. Grace without the implant is out to save Sheryl by any means necessary. I think the loop hole that you failed to notice was that Grace had an implant just like Brera and was forced to act against her original intentions by Galaxy. I understood that and therefore liked her character more this time around.

Quote:
I'd really like to love the movie version of Sheryl -I see a lot to like. But this is just too big for me to ignore. Granted, at one time I was hugely bothered by TV Sheryl's bitchy prima donna act in episode one, but later I more or less accepted that yes, she got upset about having to work with amateurs and got nasty about it. But accepting that someone can get bitchy sometimes and accepting something with moral implications of the kind of magnitude this issue possesses are two different things.
Well, I never really liked Sheryl's enter in the series... I hated her attitude. It took me ten or more episodes to warm up to her being a character. She was way out of place as a Macross character, complete the opposite of ANY annoying character I've seen (and this includes Mylene and Minmei). But later, you get used to it.

I think the plothole in the series was why Sheryl was hooked up to that equipment in the picture that Michael and Klan find if Sheryl was only picked up by Grace. So, to fill in that plothole, Sheryl actually agreed to become an experiment for Galaxy. Thus it explains why Sheryl got the V-type virus and why she was used, and therefore, it saves time without Sheryl actually hitting rock bottom like in the series. I think it worked well for the production too.
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Old 2011-10-30, 02:07   Link #2818
karice67
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Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
And actually, Alto was ready to quit the S.M.S. after Sheryl so-called "betrayed" him. That was his plan.
Actually, he never said that. He just didn't answer Ozma, i.e. you are assuming that that was his plan.

It's not contradicted, but that doesn't mean that it's 100% true either. Please don't put words or plans into the character's mouth.

I get something else out of that scene, but since Alto doesn't say much, I can only make conjectures about how much of what Ozma suggested is true. I suggest you recognise that that's all that you can do as well.
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Old 2011-10-30, 02:20   Link #2819
LoveMeKags
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Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
Actually, he never said that. He just didn't answer Ozma, i.e. you are assuming that that was his plan.

It's not contradicted, but that doesn't mean that it's 100% true either. Please don't put words or plans into the character's mouth.

I get something else out of that scene, but since Alto doesn't say much, I can only make conjectures about how much of what Ozma suggested is true. I suggest you recognise that that's all that you can do as well.
Hm, the subtitle is wrong?

Alto's body language also answered Ozma's question regardless of saying or not. One thing I've learned about anime is you have to listen to the characters words and actions. Alto's actions were "I want to quit." He did not need to speak it to truly say that. Even Ozma understood that much.
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Old 2011-10-30, 02:24   Link #2820
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Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
Alto's body language also answered Ozma's question regardless of saying or not. One thing I've learned about anime is you have to listen to the characters words and actions. Alto's actions were "I want to quit." He did not need to speak it to truly say that. Even Ozma understood that much.
You are still assuming and sticking lines in the movie that did not exist. And please, for the love of Protoculture, don't tell us how to watch anime, most of us seen a lot more than you ever have. Geez.

OTOH, Ranka's crowning moment of cool in the movie was to actually assist putting a plan in motion that actually worked (see what you can accomplish if you consult with everybody?). To that, she deserves credit, nothing less, but nothing more.

- Tak
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