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View Poll Results: Macross Frontier: Sayonara no Tsubasa Movie Rating
Perfect 10 40 42.11%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 33 34.74%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 12 12.63%
7 out of 10 : Good 5 5.26%
6 out of 10 : Average 3 3.16%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 2 2.11%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 95. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2011-11-25, 17:32   Link #3501
Thess
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...

Anyway, back to the movie, I like that Alto's and Ranka's personality changed to be more mature. While they admit Sheryl's basically the same, only with a subplot (the spy one) to shoulder. But her personality is unchanged, just given different circumstances to handle. The cuteness and harsh edges were there. Why would they change their most profitable protagonist? That never made sense how come people claimed this.
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Last edited by CrowKenobi; 2011-11-25 at 19:55. Reason: Anything labeled "off-topic" is going to get deleted unless moved to the appropriate thread.
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Old 2011-11-25, 17:36   Link #3502
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Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
Fared better...? He got a bullet in the forehead!!

(But if you mean he was smarter, more sinister, and got a lot more done, then yeah...I agree.)
That's what I meant. His ultimate fate... well, as with everything in the series, we simply don't know with absolute certitude. But if the movies are anything to go by, he probably got some harsh frontier justice, yo.
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Old 2011-11-25, 19:53   Link #3503
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Originally Posted by cheesie View Post
You mean like these beauties?

I like how you try to soften the blow of the Alto x Ranka ship, but ended up giving extra ammunition to legions of yaoi fangirls in their shipping wars instead, a sign that some serious Space Cadet logic is at work here lol.
And your point?

I'm talking about official triangle couples. Sheryl/Alto/Ranka had official art for Alto/Sheryl and Alto/Ranka to prove both sides were canon but one was the official winner. Michael was not part of the "triangle" nor do they ever show him in a romantic fashion but rather a brotherly fashion with Alto. The point remains that there were official art for both sides of this triangle: Ranka and Sheryl alike, thus meaning they were both canon but one was chosen over the other.

Basically, you saying Alto/Ranka was not canon (at all) means that Hikaru and Minmei didn't go on a date, they didn't kiss, neither was in love with the other. That's also like saying that when he chose Misa, his relationship beforehand with Minmei wasn't canon. It happened. It was in the timeline. It is canon. And it works no different for Alto and Ranka either.

And I do believe this is a discussion for the 'Canon' thread.
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Old 2011-11-25, 19:58   Link #3504
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I would like to remind everyone that this is the second Macross Frontier movie discussion thread. If anyone feels the need to discuss anything beyond the scope of this thread, please find a more suitable thread for it since I'm going to start editing/deleting posts that go off-topic.

Thank you.
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Old 2011-11-26, 02:56   Link #3505
Thess
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I think that speaking about the resolution of the triangle isn't off-topic since... was the whole point for this movie?

Anyway, LMK, nobody is saying that Alto/Ranka wasn't canon in terms of feelings or potentially, when we use it like that is because it wasn't mean to be endgame canon. That better?

That, as this film explicitly pointed out is Sheryl and Alto.
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Old 2011-11-26, 03:16   Link #3506
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Originally Posted by Thess View Post
Anyway, LMK, nobody is saying that Alto/Ranka wasn't canon in terms of feelings or potentially, when we use it like that is because it wasn't mean to be endgame canon. That better?

That, as this film explicitly pointed out is Sheryl and Alto.
Actually, they're saying Alto/Ranka wasn't canon at all. Which was my point of stating they are.

And like I said, they just weren't the winners. That's all. Doesn't make them less canon.
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Old 2011-11-26, 04:28   Link #3507
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What the fudge is going on here? (Thess, you are being waaay too nice, like pacifying a tantrum). What the hell is the point of 'canon' (even if that term is cr4zy in Macross) if people can just walk all over what the staff established? The END of Triangle, people. But fanon is okay, it's great even. And if some people can't accept who wins who in fictional relationship games, then they should just channel what they want with fanmade material, not put up tl;dr posts trying to make their stance as Word of God. Frankly, it's embarrassing and facepalm-worthy. >.>

"I see the real true pairings!" - Sure, now write a fanfic about it.

---

*Sigh* I just had to get that out because really! <.<

On to the movie: I guess the staff realized that the stage 2 version of Ai-kun in the series didn't make a cute sidekick for Ranka in the movies. Hence, the cutesy wings.
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Old 2011-11-26, 11:21   Link #3508
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Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
^
Why did the staff say “it’s fine if Sheryl doesn’t change”?

During the TV series, we managed to get just about the right balance for Sheryl as a character, getting the audience to almost hating her but, in the end, liking her as ‘the Galaxy Fairy’. In fact, we used a lot of different tricks to achieve that. For example, the depictions of Sheryl in the deculture edition and the TV broadcast are different. In the deculture edition, we left out much of Sheryl’s cuteness, whilst in the TV version, we cut down on her harshness and increased the ‘cute’ scenes where you can see what she’s like inside. In other words, all the versions are different. I’m glad that, in creating her this way, we managed to get the audience behind her.[/SPOILER]
That's interesting to know. So I guess the fact that the two editions of the first episode having slightly different material wasn't due entirely to schedule or run time limitations (although I still think the Bluray version of the first episode that combines the two was by far the best version). One thing though -are you sure it was the TV version that's supposed to make Sheryl cute while the Deculture one was supposed to make her seem harsh? Because the Deculture edition is the one that had her murmuring about strawberry pie and squealing with child-like delight when she's viewing frontier through her transport's viewport. Meanwhile the main thing I'm aware of the TV broadcast having that the Deculture edition didn't was the scene where Sheryl takes a fall, then glares at Alto and tells him to keep flying after he catches her. That scene was pretty awesome but it's not exactly one I would say emphasizes her cute side.
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Old 2011-11-27, 01:22   Link #3509
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Originally Posted by BetoJR View Post
What about Leon's picture with Luca's sister? He's holding a surfboard! Clearly, there's something else afoot.
A kappa on a surfboard! Argh!!! My eyes!

Quote:
Originally Posted by BetoJR View Post
Also, thanks for the interview! I agree that Sheryl didn't need to change - speaking as one who totally disliked her the first couple of episodes in the TV series - but I loved what they did just the same.
I wasn't particularly keen on Sheryl either, until much much later in my case though. But there seem to be a few of us around, huh?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Thess View Post
Why would they change their most profitable protagonist? That never made sense how come people claimed this.
To highlight another side of her that most people didn't get, perhaps? It seems like only Endo Aya really felt the connection between Sheryl and Grace prior to this second film.



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Originally Posted by Darthtabby View Post
One thing though -are you sure it was the TV version that's supposed to make Sheryl cute while the Deculture one was supposed to make her seem harsh?
Absolutely positive. There are actually three versions of the episode. The Deculture edition (broadcast Dec 26th 2007), the TV broadcast version (April 3rd 2008) and the Yack Deculture edition (Blu-ray and DVD). Kawamori goes into this in greater detail in the commentary for the first episode (more detailed writeup here), where he notes that the latter is the complete one.
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Old 2011-11-27, 02:58   Link #3510
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Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
To highlight another side of her that most people didn't get, perhaps? It seems like only Endo Aya really felt the connection between Sheryl and Grace prior to this second film.
You see occasional signs of Grace and Sheryl having a bond in the TV series (Grace's showing up at the shelter for instance) but if they were supposed to have a particularly strong bond then that's something the TV series kind of failed at portraying. That's one of my biggest problems with the Drama CD stuff about Sheryl and Grace actually -it explains some things pretty well if you accept that they had a strong relationship, something which didn't seem to be the case in the TV series.

Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
Absolutely positive. There are actually three versions of the episode. The Deculture edition (broadcast Dec 26th 2007), the TV broadcast version (April 3rd 2008) and the Yack Deculture edition (Blu-ray and DVD). Kawamori goes into this in greater detail in the commentary for the first episode (more detailed writeup here), where he notes that the latter is the complete one.
I know that, I mostly watch the Bluray version -I'm not sure if I even have copies of the other two around anymore. It's just that from what I can remember from the differences between the two (and my memory on this is kind of spotty) it seems like it was the Deculture edition that portrayed Sheryl in more of a cute light ("strawberry pie" and her delight upon getting her first look at the Frontier fleet).

Does anyone else wonder if we should move this to another topic? While it came out of a movie related interview that talked about the changes between the TV series and the movie, this is till getting into discussion about the TV series...
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Old 2011-11-27, 03:22   Link #3511
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Originally Posted by Darthtabby View Post
That's one of my biggest problems with the Drama CD stuff about Sheryl and Grace actually -it explains some things pretty well if you accept that they had a strong relationship, something which didn't seem to be the case in the TV series.
It was something they couldn't fit in the TV series. In various extra materials, they make it quite clear that there is a fair amount of background stuff (little incidents here and there - e.g. Michel seeing Alto in a kabuki performance as a kid) that didn't make it into the TV series. You can also see how hurt Sheryl is by Grace's betrayal in the TV series, which hints at how much trust she put in the latter. But obviously, it's not something that all viewers pick up on/put stock in.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtabby View Post
I know that, I mostly watch the Bluray version -I'm not sure if I even have copies of the other two around anymore. It's just that from what I can remember from the differences between the two (and my memory on this is kind of spotty) it seems like it was the Deculture edition that portrayed Sheryl in more of a cute light ("strawberry pie" and her delight upon getting her first look at the Frontier fleet).
I double-checked the interview to make sure I had the versions/editions correct...so if anything, it's Kawamori who's not remembering right! (I don't have either of them myself...)



Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtabby View Post
Does anyone else wonder if we should move this to another topic? While it came out of a movie related interview that talked about the changes between the TV series and the movie, this is till getting into discussion about the TV series...
True...it's only after I started breaking up the interview that I realised how much is related more to the TV series than the films. I'm completely fine with it because I see them all as showing different facets of one story...but if we do want to keep them separate...

Alternatively, would a separate thread for interviews and other background material be better? (cheesie dear, how is your project coming along?)
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Last edited by karice67; 2011-11-27 at 13:00.
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Old 2011-11-27, 05:00   Link #3512
Thess
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Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
To highlight another side of her that most people didn't get, perhaps? It seems like only Endo Aya really felt the connection between Sheryl and Grace prior to this second film.
I think that was mostly Grace's change. Sheryl herself didn't change, what they did was to give her a reason to pull her nicer side sooner (with all her barriers): the childhood meeting with Alto, he rescuing her. Those were brought by circumstances, but the base personality is the same.
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Old 2011-11-27, 11:44   Link #3513
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Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
It was something they couldn't fit in the TV series. In various extra materials, they make it quite clear that there is a fair amount of background stuff (little incidents here and there - e.g. Michel seeing Alto in a kabuki performance as a kid) that doesn't make it into the TV series. You can also see how hurt Sheryl is by Grace's betrayal in the TV series, which hints at how much trust she put in the latter. But obviously, it's not something that all viewers pick up on/put stock in.



I double-checked the interview to make sure I had the versions/editions correct...so if anything, it's Kawamori who's not remembering right! (I don't have either of them myself...)



True...it's only after I started breaking up the interview that I realised how much is related more to the TV series than the films. I'm completely fine with it because I seem them all as showing different facets of one story...but if we do want to keep them separate...

Alternatively, would a separate thread for interviews and other background material be better? (cheesie dear, how is your project coming along?)
A new thread for interviews might be nice (although there is the question of what to do about all the old interview translations -it seems like it would be good to amalgamate them into one thread so they're easy to find, but on the other hand going through all of that might interfere with the continuing discussion of current interviews). I also wonder what would happen to activity in this thread if the interviews are discussed elsewhere.

But anyhow, let me know what you want to do. If you want to try to make an interview thread we can discuss things there, otherwise I can maybe move some of the TV series related discussion to other threads.
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Old 2011-11-28, 17:39   Link #3514
karice67
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(^ moving that elsewhere for the moment)

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Originally Posted by Thess View Post
I think that was mostly Grace's change. Sheryl herself didn't change,*snip* Those were brought by circumstances, but the base personality is the same.
Well, I do agree that her personality doesn't change, they just made her loneliness a bit more explicit.

(Though I wouldn't say that Alto or Ranka's personalities have changed all that much either - they just made them a little more mature, almost as if they'd gone through the trials of the TV series before the start of the films.)

But what I meant was that the addition of the spy plot also makes the closeness between Sheryl and Grace more explicit.

======

Official Complete Book Interview: Kawamori Shouji, Part 5

This section is mostly about the films, so without further ado...

[To me, the extent to which I could separate myself from “Macross F” and look at it from the perspective of the audience [was always on my mind.]]

Spoiler for length:


======

edit: also, see my sig for what will probably be my final version of the subs. It's basically a pretty extensive reedit of what CGs put out, but I still don't have my copies of the script, so a few lines (especially the technical stuff) might still be off. I also had no time to do more than the briefest of touch-ups to the lyrics, and there's also a Zero reference that I need to check. And please excuse any grammatical errors, it was a rush job... But hopefully, Heibi and co. will come through with their version soon! edit: removed
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Last edited by karice67; 2012-04-13 at 01:45.
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Old 2011-11-29, 22:57   Link #3515
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(Though I wouldn't say that Alto or Ranka's personalities have changed all that much either - they just made them a little more mature, almost as if they'd gone through the trials of the TV series before the start of the films.)
Strangely enough, that's exactly how I feel, and exactly how I feel about DYRL as well.

It's as though the PLOT is covering (roughly) the same events and time frame, but the CHARACTERS and MECHA are from a sequel. (In DYRL it helps that the characters actually are a year or two older than their TV counterparts...that doesn't seem to be the case for the Frontier movies, however.)
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Old 2011-11-29, 23:27   Link #3516
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Strangely enough, that's exactly how I feel, and exactly how I feel about DYRL as well.
Perhaps not too coincidental. Both Hikaru and Alto were not as clueless as their TV counterparts. Its a nice change.

As for the ages... 17 year old as a bridge operator for Earth fleet's flagship... erm... nah... cannot believe!

- Tak
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Old 2011-11-30, 03:58   Link #3517
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They did skip all the rivalry between Alto and Michael, removed Altos family problems, changed his rage over not having a clear direction in life into and inability to reconcile his loathing of being confined and his inherent love for his home to some unneeded gender issues.

So, yeah, they removed all of Altos old baggage and replaced it with some weird pseudo-issues, which made his character start out more mature. Any character without major internal conflicts would do so.
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Old 2011-11-30, 05:12   Link #3518
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Perhaps not too coincidental. Both Hikaru and Alto were not as clueless as their TV counterparts. Its a nice change.

As for the ages... 17 year old as a bridge operator for Earth fleet's flagship... erm... nah... cannot believe!

- Tak
the bridge bunnies?

even cathy being only 22, thats just not really possible.

hell if we go by timelines then ozuma was 17 when he saved ranka on the 117th fleet.

and cathy was 12
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Old 2011-11-30, 10:46   Link #3519
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the bridge bunnies?

even cathy being only 22, thats just not really possible.
At 22, being a bridge bunny is believable. Naval operators aren't very old people even in real life. Nonetheless, I was more or less referring to SDF Macross. Most of the bridge bunnies in the original show were in their teens!!

- Tak
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Old 2011-11-30, 11:38   Link #3520
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At 22, being a bridge bunny is believable. Naval operators aren't very old people even in real life. Nonetheless, I was more or less referring to SDF Macross. Most of the bridge bunnies in the original show were in their teens!!

- Tak
...because nearly every qualified person who was older had been killed in the Unification Wars.
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