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View Poll Results: Macross Frontier: Sayonara no Tsubasa Movie Rating
Perfect 10 40 42.11%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 33 34.74%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 12 12.63%
7 out of 10 : Good 5 5.26%
6 out of 10 : Average 3 3.16%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 2 2.11%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 95. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2011-11-30, 11:39   Link #3521
kira-sama
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what a great movie!!!!
At first i scared to watch the ending of triangle love between Alto, Sheryl and Ranka. But after watched this movie I'm happy with tears especially
Spoiler:
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Old 2011-11-30, 11:54   Link #3522
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definately a great movie with good songs, a shame that it didn't focus much on other pairings like Michael and Klan (at least in this one Michael is alive)
sometimes Sheryl was getting on my nerves and Alto and Ranka improved quite a lot in contrast with the anime in my opinion (liked how they behaved during the movie)
I'm also happy that Alto chose Sheryl, just if they had a happy ending...

now just wait to see what they'll do for the 30th anniversary
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Old 2011-11-30, 12:22   Link #3523
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Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
...because nearly every qualified person who was older had been killed in the Unification Wars.
The Unification Wars was neither World War II nor anything akin to a total war. It was frequent, but fairly limited in scale. Its not as if the world's young men & women were emptied as a result of the wars.

To suggest that they lacked qualified less-than-half-dozen adult individuals to crew Earth's one and only is a tad bit... difficult to come across, if not utterly impossible.

- Tak
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Old 2011-11-30, 12:36   Link #3524
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Originally Posted by Tak View Post
The Unification Wars was neither World War II nor anything akin to a total war. It was frequent, but fairly limited in scale. Its not as if the world's young men & women were emptied as a result of the wars.

To suggest that they lacked qualified half-dozen adult individuals to crew Earth's one and only is a tad bit... difficult to come across.

- Tak
*shrug* That's what it said in this book when the question was asked, "Why are the bridge crew and pilots all teenagers?"

It was also backed up by dialogue in Macross Zero ("All the capable people have already died," said the grizzled old technician in episode...two, I think).
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Old 2011-11-30, 12:51   Link #3525
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Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
*shrug* That's what it said in this book when the question was asked, "Why are the bridge crew and pilots all teenagers
Except you and I both know it defies logic to suggest the inability to find less than half-dozen adults to crew Earth's best ship. There were plenty of adults and military personnel in Macross city alone. That was on the first episode, man.

Then again, not that it matters. Strangely enough, all of them grew several years in DYRL.

- Tak
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Old 2011-11-30, 22:49   Link #3526
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Except you and I both know it defies logic to suggest the inability to find less than half-dozen adults to crew Earth's best ship. There were plenty of adults and military personnel in Macross city alone. That was on the first episode, man.

Then again, not that it matters. Strangely enough, all of them grew several years in DYRL.

- Tak
Moving the topic here.
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Old 2011-12-03, 06:37   Link #3527
karice67
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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
They did skip all the rivalry between Alto and Michael, removed Altos family problems, changed his rage over not having a clear direction in life into and inability to reconcile his loathing of being confined and his inherent love for his home to some unneeded gender issues.
*Just skimmed Itsuwari again*
Not really. The other issues are still there, just in the background with the gender/identity issues foregrounded. And really, you didn't find Ozma's "what am I?" spiel in "Sayonara" the slightest bit inspirational at all?

=======

And the final part of of the director's interview

Official Complete Book Interview: Kawamori Shouji

aka, the part the contains Kawamori's answer to something everyone keeps bugging him about: why they can't make a direct sequel to Frontier...

Part 1, 2, 3, 4, 5...

Spoiler for length:
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Last edited by karice67; 2011-12-03 at 09:32.
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Old 2011-12-03, 08:28   Link #3528
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Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
Spoiler for for length:
So...

What I gather from this is that he's answered our question of which is canon right there: neither.

The story of Frontier cannot (apparently) join with future Macross' because of how it ended and what became of the characters. It basically is just like Zero (all characters had no tie on future Macross'). So this is how Zero ties to Frontier, because they are both not canon in the Macross universe.

I find it interesting because what he says makes it sound like there are two universes to Macross: one which is canon, and one that is not. The "canon" side are the ones that are direct sequels to the original (like Macross 7). The "non-canon" ones are ones that aren't direct sequels (like Macross Plus and Frontier). And so, for Macross Frontier, we saw cameos appear from non-canon Macross' (like Isamu from Plus, the ship from DYRL which isn't canon in universe). He basically explains how he sees the Macross universe just above by saying this.

I could be wrong and he's only talking about continuing just Macross Frontier, but I've always wondered why Zero is supposed to be a prequel yet no past Macross' have shown connection to it, nor has Plus had an influence on Seven. SDF had an influence on Seven (which is a direct continuation). But overall, all the non-canon type material was brought into Frontier: connection to Zero, Plus, and even DYRL. It's questionable I guess, but I think that's what he's saying above.

Once again, I could be wrong; but I do believe he's saying Macross Frontier (as a whole) is not canon. Which means we're shipping characters that will not appear (if at all) in the next Macross and possibly not till the next non-canon Macross. So I guess we can kiss Alto, Ranka, and Sheryl goodbye for another few years unless the next Macross is also a non-direct sequel to SDF. That's how it seems to work. (And, before you rant, notice that Seven did not have an impact beyond music in Frontier. This shows that it does have connections to the canon side, but it doesn't tie in very well with SDF, holding more themes from DYRL than the original.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
Spoiler for for length:
So we're not gonna get a TV series or a film. Perhaps he's leaning towards an OVA instead. But the way he sounds, it's like he's aware that Macross has started to become repetitive like I've mentioned in the past. He wants to break that and start something new and profound. I salute his words here.


Thanks for all the hard work, karice, it's much appreciated.
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Old 2011-12-03, 08:55   Link #3529
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Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
So...

What I gather from this is that he's answered our question of which is canon right there: neither.

The story of Frontier cannot (apparently) join with future Macross' because of how it ended and what became of the characters. It basically is just like Zero (all characters had no tie on future Macross').
Roy Focker...? Mao Nome...?
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Old 2011-12-03, 09:09   Link #3530
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Roy Focker...? Mao Nome...?
I'm wondering at what you're driving towards with that question.

According to Kawamori, Zero was supposed to serve as a prequel to SDF. However, it had no ties. None of the characters knew the other nor were they mentioned, and it had no relation to the Macross whatsoever. It was a stand-alone instead. Therefore it began a thread of "non-canon" Macross' like Plus and Frontier (which also followed behind DYRL). It's not a nice trend, but it seems to work, creating two universes for Kawamori to explore and gain happiness off of. There's nothing wrong with that.

It is possible that Roy tied to Zero, but he doesn't show it. It is possible to surmise that DYRL Roy was tied to Zero in some way but not SDF Roy.

Let's not forget that in the opening meant to remind us of the past Macross' for Frontier showed DYRL scenes, and some minor "cleaned up" scenes from SDF that could easily replace the explanation missing in DYRL for how the Macross left Earth. And, looking carefully, it shows the Macross leaving Earth when it wasn't in peril, thus tying it alone to DYRL. So Frontier follows DYRL (a non-canon movie for Macross).

Once again, it's the creator who should be happy, not us. And when you look at it, if Macross really does have two universes (one canon and one not) then that's fine. As long as we get triangles, music, and mecha, who is really complaining?
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Old 2011-12-03, 09:12   Link #3531
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I'm wondering at what you're driving towards with that question.

According to Kawamori, Zero was supposed to serve as a prequel to SDF.
Do you have a link to any interview where he said that?
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Old 2011-12-03, 10:11   Link #3532
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Do you have a link to any interview where he said that?
Well, for starters, it's in every summary on every site that you look up information for Zero. Anime Network and various other sites get their information directly from Japan and not Wikipedia, and even it says it's a prequel. (It also shows it in the anime when they mention that a meteor fell out of the sky, thus connecting it to SDF since the Macross fell to Earth.)

He has also stated it. There is an interview that was in one of these threads (I would skim through but am too busy) that either karice or one of the other Japanese translators on here had done that was an interview about Kawamori saying how Zero was tied to SDF in some ways.

I don't remember the whole interview clearly but, I'll try:
Macross Zero ties to Super Dimensional Fortress Macross (or Do You Remember Love) by bringing the protoculture in. Later when Misa finds the song "Do You Remember Love," it is ultimately tied to those who'd been left behind on Earth years before the Macross landed or departed. The stone found in the sea that Mao holds as a 'treasure' is a connection to these 'protoculture beings.' As a prequel, Macross Zero shows viewers the discovery of the 'protoculture' that later, in Super Dimensional Fortress, became their one way of combating with enemy forces in a calm manner. The 'protoculture' thus means 'song.'

Now, notice for a moment that in that summarized interview (from my memory) every Macross has literally (whether canon or not) been tied to this short OVA series for the "protoculture." If there is one canon thing Macross has always carried, it is "protoculture."

However, it does not tie into SDF. There were no "protoculture beings" on Earth beforehand in SDF. This is where Zero becomes a non-canon universe that ties with DYRL and later Frontier, because in DYRL, Misa finds "Ai Oboete Imasu ka" on the Earth, left behind by those "protoculture beings." Mao had previously given you a hint to this in Zero (had it come out before DYRL) by guarding that ancient relic in the ocean as a treasure. Those are the connections to the "protoculture beings." Therefore, Zero is the prequel to DYRL and not SDF, and therefore Frontier follows that same aspect. And since DYRL is not canon, neither is Zero or Frontier by that.

Like I said, it seems like there are two universes to Macross: one that is canon (direct sequels to the original) and one that isn't (in-direct sequels that continue after each other and not the original).

This shouldn't break into an argument, Yot.
If you watched Zero carefully, they do hint that the Macross had just crashed. If it had been a sequel, don't you think they would've been far more advanced and have better technology, after all, once the Macross had returned to Earth in both universes, they grew and expanded again. But Zero had old-style Valkyries that only flew in the sky (not able to go into space from the specs) and focused more on the fact Earth's population had died down (which was mentioned early on SDF as an explanation to why mankind wanted to leave Earth in the Macross). If it had been a sequel, then it wouldn't have made sense if you look at Frontier. Mao is Sheryl's grandmother. Had it been a sequel to SDF, then it would be unexplainable how Mao became her grandmother. Take age into account and also the fact that Mao had to leave on the Macross to become a researcher and later show up in Frontier. Which is another way it ties to DYRL in "unexplainable events."
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Old 2011-12-03, 10:17   Link #3533
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Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
He has also stated it. There is an interview that was in one of these threads (I would skim through but am too busy) that either karice or one of the other Japanese translators on here had done that was an interview about Kawamori saying how Zero was tied to SDF in some ways.
I'd be very interested to see that interview. Let me know when your busy schedule lightens up so you can find it. Thanks!
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Old 2011-12-03, 10:24   Link #3534
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I'd be very interested to see that interview. Let me know when your busy schedule lightens up so you can find it. Thanks!
They even give it in the FAQ for this series.

Year 2008. A year before the Macross took off from Earth.

Notice that also, DYRL is in 2031; way off from the timeline, thus making it non-canon. And it later ties to Plus in 2040 and finally to Frontier in 2059. So if you look at it, it is possible that Zero (2008) is a prequel to DYRL, which would become a way to explain how the Macross took off from Earth with so many resources that it managed to make it halfway back without a problem. It gave them 23 years to build up defenses on the Macross, thus making it stronger, and it shows in DYRL.

Also, taken from Wikipedia:
Quote:
Macross Zero is set in 2008 A.D., one year before the events of the original Macross series, depicting the final battles of the U.N. Wars between the U.N. Spacy and the Anti-UN forces, and is also set in the South Pacific, where a gigantic alien spaceship crash landed 9 years earlier. Amidst the violence, a U.N. Spacy F-14KAI pilot named Shin Kudo is attacked by a strange enemy aircraft that can transform itself into a robot. Crash landing on Mayan Island he learns that this remote island and its peaceful native inhabitants hold a great secret linking them to the alien space ship and would become the focus of the war, whether they like it or not. Shin eventually returns to his carrier fleet and joins the Skull Squadron, who also operate brand new transforming fighters, the VF-0 Phoenix. He trains and engages Anti-UN forces operating from a converted ballistic missile submarine as both sides fight to locate and control alien artifacts, with the peaceful and agrarian Mayan caught in the middle of the war.
I'm not trying to say you're wrong, Yot; it could be possible that Kawamori created it as a stand-alone, but every description for the series says "prequel." And because of how the storyline plays out in Zero (the things that happen and whatnot), it becomes tied more to DYRL than SDF, and becomes non-canon by that.
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Old 2011-12-03, 10:33   Link #3535
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Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
They even give it in the FAQ for this series.

Year 2008. A year before the Macross took off from Earth.

Notice that also, DYRL is in 2031; way off from the timeline, thus making it non-canon. And it later ties to Plus in 2040 and finally to Frontier in 2059. So if you look at it, it is possible that Zero (2008) is a prequel to DYRL, which would become a way to explain how the Macross took off from Earth with so many resources that it managed to make it halfway back without a problem. It gave them 23 years to build up defenses on the Macross, thus making it stronger, and it shows in DYRL.
Erm...of course Macross Zero is set in 2008, before SDFM and DYRL, that wasn't what I was referring to.

I was referring to this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
According to Kawamori, Zero was supposed to serve as a prequel to SDF. However, it had no ties. None of the characters knew the other nor were they mentioned, and it had no relation to the Macross whatsoever. It was a stand-alone instead.
You said that Kawamori said it would be a prequel, not a stand-alone work. I don't think he ever said that.

Have you found the time to find that interview yet?
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Old 2011-12-03, 10:41   Link #3536
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You said that Kawamori said it would be a prequel, not a stand-alone work. I don't think he ever said that.

Have you found the time to find that interview yet?
He did.

No, I haven't been looking. Instead, I'm gonna go to school to learn how to create my own website.

But regardless of whether it was an interview or not, for it to be on the back of the box states along that it is a prequel. There should be no question there. The interview was more about how it connected to future Macross' rather than proof it was. So you really are getting worked up about nothing there.
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Old 2011-12-03, 10:51   Link #3537
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Moved the discussion HERE.
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Old 2011-12-03, 17:13   Link #3538
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Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
So...

What I gather from this is that he's answered our question of which is canon right there: neither.

The story of Frontier cannot (apparently) join with future Macross' because of how it ended and what became of the characters. It basically is just like Zero (all characters had no tie on future Macross'). So this is how Zero ties to Frontier, because they are both not canon in the Macross universe.
...I seriously have no idea how you got this from the interview.

Fact: Kawamori has established a basic 'continuity', of which Zero and Frontier are both a part. Macross II is the only one that is treated by Kawamori (and the other creators) as being of a separate continuity.

Note: I wrote 'direct sequel', by which I meant a detailed continuation of the Frontier story in anime (or any other form of work, even if Kawamori says it's a possibility). If they ever make another future Macross, I bet we'd hear the names of at least one of Alto, Sheryl and Ranka again - but it'll be just in passing, much like Sharon Apple and Lynn Minmay were mentioned/seen in passing in Frontier.



Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
But the way he sounds, it's like he's aware that Macross has started to become repetitive like I've mentioned in the past. He wants to break that and start something new and profound.
Repetitive? Really? E.g. Before all the spoilers came out, you could have predicted the entire plot of the movies? And two songstresses, was that ever done before? And a protagonist who was a kabuki actor, i.e. as far away from a pilot as one could probably get?

Sorry, I just don't agree with your premise (that they're all that repetitive).
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Last edited by karice67; 2011-12-06 at 08:55.
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Old 2011-12-04, 05:39   Link #3539
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...I seriously have no idea how you got this from the interview.
The interview. When he says there's no way to continue it due to how Ranka and Sheryl are changed blood wise.

Quote:
Note: I wrote 'direct sequel', by which I meant a detailed continuation of the Frontier story in anime (or any other form of work, even if Kawamori says it's a possibility). If they ever make another future Macross, I bet we'd hear the names of at least one of Alto, Sheryl and Ranka again - but it'll be just in passing, much like Sharon Apple and Lynn Minmei were mentioned/seen in passing in Frontier.
Well, yes; but it'd hold no direct connection to the future Macross. Which is what I was implying.

Quote:
Repetitive? Really? E.g. Before all the spoilers came out, you could have predicted the entire plot of the movies? And two songstresses, was that ever done before? And a protagonist who was a kabuki actor, i.e. as far away from a pilot as one could probably get?
Triangle: mature girl wins.
Plot: quick and shaky
Enemy: 2D
Mecha: excellent

The repetitive piece I'm referring to is the fact that in the love triangle, the elder girl or most mature always tends to win or they have a triangular ending, the plot is either quick or not well delivered (like with Zero) and the enemy is always 2D. And ninety percent of the time, we deal with the Zentradi. The whole series, as a franchise is repetitive this way.

And your sentences are really a fool's questions. Kawamori was talking about what is stated above. He's more referring to the genres in his stories: triangle, music, and mecha. So far, the music is only repetitive with reminding you about past Macross'. The mecha continues to grow. But the triangles are repetitive as a whole: guy/girl picks more mature girl/guy. And one thing he mentions very well is story. I've been thinking that the 2nd movie had a shaky plot even when you single out the important plot (not the triangle but the war). He seems to believe that until he finds a solid plot, Macross might go on hiatus.
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Old 2011-12-04, 06:07   Link #3540
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No. Kawamori doesn't say that their story doesn't continue. He merely says that they cannot depict it.

Quote:
From here on, we can’t talk about either Ranka or Sheryl in terms of [‘normal’ representations of emotion]. It might be possible to do something in the novel format, taking it deeper into the SF realm, but I don’t know whether that’s something an audience would enjoy if it were animated.


Which has absolutely nothing to do with whether it is 'canon' of not. If you want to talk about there being a single, definable 'Macross canon', that is. To be honest, I don't particularly see the point of doing that.

I don't think you know what you are talking about when you use the word 'canon', and if that continues to be the case, this will be my last reply to you on this subject.

====

On the supposed 'repetitiveness': I still think that's your own opinion (and possibly that of others), but that's fine. I have nothing more to say on it so we can continue to disagree about it.
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