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View Poll Results: Macross Frontier: Sayonara no Tsubasa Movie Rating
Perfect 10 40 42.11%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 33 34.74%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 12 12.63%
7 out of 10 : Good 5 5.26%
6 out of 10 : Average 3 3.16%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 2 2.11%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 95. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2011-02-26, 08:20   Link #1061
Westlo
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I still don't forgive Yoshino for what he came up with for My-Otome, and I lol'd when I found out he was the story writer for the Seikon no Qwaser manga. Guess that explains his fanservice tendencies....
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Old 2011-02-26, 08:22   Link #1062
magnuskn
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Originally Posted by Westlo View Post
I still don't forgive Yoshino for what he came up with for My-Otome, and I lol'd when I found out he was the story writer for the Seikon no Qwaser manga. Guess that explains his fanservice tendencies....
Really? What was so disagreeable about Mai-Otome? I guess if you didn't like what Nina ended up doing, but otherwise it was happy endings all around. And they didn't seem as forced as in Mai-Hime.
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Old 2011-02-26, 08:24   Link #1063
Natsuki Hyuga
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
Okay, so which shows do you think of as "Kawamori shows"?

Does DYRL have a bittersweet ending? How about Anyamaru Tantei Kiruminzuu? What about Spring and Chaos? Shanghai Dragon

And Kawamori was the scriptwriter for Escaflowne, but he wasn't the writer. He took the stories the writing team wrote and hammered them into screenplays (teleplays, if you want to get anal about it).

Yoshino, on the other hand, wrote, from scratch, every episode of Frontier. So wouldn't he be the one you should be praising or blaming?
*cough* Yotchan, I think the little point that Wes is really trying to make here is, like it or not, some shows that has Kawamori's final decision as the director (or sth that is also relating to story decisions) have bittersweet ending, like it or not he HAS done some EDs like that. It doesn't mean that ALL Kawamori stories must have iteration of bittersweet ED. Some people are protesting here about the bittersweet part (not me, I personally am quite the masochist ), and trying to use the bittersweet end in any ways to justify the arguments.

And that's why he pointed out that, yes, Kawamori HAS the guts to do Bittersweet ED, so munch your cookies and don't use that as your ammo. Or to make Kawa take the full blame, for some reason.

Wes, put your thoughts a bit coherent after you ranted to us IRCers!
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Old 2011-02-26, 08:25   Link #1064
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Originally Posted by Westlo View Post
Kawamori was the creator of Escaflowne, did screenplay and was the story editor as well as supervisor of the team. It's silly to downplay the involvement of Kawamori in that series which was pretty much his baby. The biggest misconception about Escaflowne is that Kawamori did the mecha designs for the series, he didn't do that all which is surprising for a lot of people.
Fair enough. But Tak and Magnus were arguing that the DIRECTOR is the most important person, and any criticism should be laid at their feet, since they call the shots.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Westlo View Post
I've already said that not every Kawamori show had a bittersweet ending so I don't know why you're listing all his shows that didn't. But when Escaflowne, Macross Zero, Aquarion, Macross Frontier Movie and more than likely Aquarion 2 (and maybe Arjuna) have bittersweet endings than...
So SDFM, DYRL, Macross Plus, The Daichis, Shanghai Dragon, Spring and Chaos, and possibly Aquarion 2 and Arjuna don't. What's you point?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Westlo View Post
Anyamaru Tantei Kiruminzuu only lists him as the original creator and it seems he had no input after coming up with the concept.
So, similar to, say, Macross Dynamite 7.
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Old 2011-02-26, 08:25   Link #1065
choji
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Alright, so quick question cause got not much time on my hands to check every page and shit so:

Spoiler for endgame baby:
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Old 2011-02-26, 08:25   Link #1066
Westlo
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My-Otome was terrible period aside from the music (so good) and animation, it's part of the Sunrise sequel curse.

Speaking of My-Otome's music.... You know I would like to see Yuki Kajiura-sensei produce the music for Macross 30....
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Old 2011-02-26, 08:26   Link #1067
wisteria233
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Originally Posted by Westlo View Post
Kawamori was the creator of Escaflowne, did screenplay and was the story editor as well as supervisor of the team. It's silly to downplay the involvement of Kawamori in that series which was pretty much his baby. The biggest misconception about Escaflowne is that Kawamori did the mecha designs for the series, he didn't do that all which is surprising for a lot of people.

I've already said that not every Kawamori show had a bittersweet ending so I don't know why you're listing all his shows that didn't. But when Escaflowne, Macross Zero, Aquarion, Macross Frontier Movie and more than likely Aquarion 2 (and maybe Arjuna) have bittersweet endings than...

Anyamaru Tantei Kiruminzuu only lists him as the original creator and it seems he had no input after coming up with the concept.
Arjuna's ending was kinda bittersweet in that the main character loses her ability to talk, and it seems that she becomes unable to walk as well, but by then her boyfriend can understand her without words anyway and just wants to be with her. But yeah its pretty much implied that they had a happy ending (at least in my opinion).
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Old 2011-02-26, 08:27   Link #1068
magnuskn
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Originally Posted by Westlo View Post
My-Otome was terrible period aside from the music (so good) and animation, it's part of the Sunrise sequel curse.
Um, I guess we must part ways here in our opinions. I liked the show very much.
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Old 2011-02-26, 08:28   Link #1069
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Originally Posted by Natsuki Hyuga View Post
*cough* Yotchan, I think the little point that Wes is really trying to make here is, like it or not, some shows that has Kawamori's final decision as the director (or sth that is also relating to story decisions) have bittersweet ending, like it or not he HAS done some EDs like that. It doesn't mean that ALL Kawamori stories must have iteration of bittersweet ED. Some people are protesting here about the bittersweet part (not me, I personally am quite the masochist ), and trying to use the bittersweet end in any ways to justify the arguments.

And that's why he pointed out that, yes, Kawamori HAS the guts to do Bittersweet ED, so munch your cookies and don't use that as your ammo. Or to make Kawa take the full blame, for some reason.

Wes, put your thoughts a bit coherent after you ranted to us IRCers!
All I'm saying is that people seeme to have a fixed idea of what a "Kawamori ending" is, despite a majority of his own shows not having that kind of ending.

I'd argue the same thing for "'Kill 'Em All' Tomino," who only really 'killed 'em all' in a few instances (although you could easily argue that Ideon makes up for all the others).

Quote:
Originally Posted by choji View Post
Alright, so quick question cause got not much time on my hands to check every page and shit so:

Spoiler for endgame baby:
Kinda. It's complicated.

Last edited by CrowKenobi; 2011-02-27 at 01:45. Reason: Edit button, edit button...
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Old 2011-02-26, 08:30   Link #1070
Westlo
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Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
Fair enough. But Tak and Magnus were arguing that the DIRECTOR is the most important person, and any criticism should be laid at their feet, since they call the shots.
Whatever, I didn't read that crap. But there's directors and than there's DIRECTORS. Like in SHAFT it doesn't matter who's directing Shinbo checks over EVERYTHING. Some people take on more importance than their position reveals. Anno didn't direct the new Evangelion movies but you bet your ass he's the main man in that team.

Quote:
So SDFM, DYRL, Macross Plus, The Daichis, Shanghai Dragon, Spring and Chaos, and possibly Aquarion 2 and Arjuna don't. What's you point?
Over half his shows (I might as well add in Aquarion Movie as well than since we're listing minor movies he's made) contain a certain type of ending while the ones you listed can't be labeled into any group aside from non-bittersweet?
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Old 2011-02-26, 08:31   Link #1071
magnuskn
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Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
All I'm saying is that people seeme to have a fixed idea of what a "Kawamori ending" is, despite a majority of his own shows not having that kind of ending.

I'd argue the same thing for "'Kill 'Em All' Tomino," who only really 'killed 'em all' in a few instances (although you could easily argue that Ideon makes up for all the others).
Well, what kind of endings did we get after, say, Macross Plus. I might be off my rocker here, but mostly non-resolutions to the romance and bittersweet endings. Or am I missing any shows?
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Old 2011-02-26, 08:32   Link #1072
choji
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Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
Kinda. It's complicated.
Went and read it, kinda in this circumstances means fuck yes. And I'm totally content with that. Now, all I need is
Spoiler for good ol' epi 22 anyone?:
and everything's all right with the world.

Who didn't see that one coming anyway, hur. : DDD
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Old 2011-02-26, 08:33   Link #1073
wisteria233
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Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
Fair enough. But Tak and Magnus were arguing that the DIRECTOR is the most important person, and any criticism should be laid at their feet, since they call the shots.
Again, not really, the director isn't the be all end all of any series they direct. A writer can in fact have just as much if not more power over the story than the director. After all they are the ones actually "writing" the story.

An example is a stupid one but, in Digimon Adventure 02 they had a lot of writers who could not see eye to eye on the direction of the show, as each one wanted the story to follow their own planning, and as such the story was all over the place, and even though the director for both the first and second season was the same, the head writer(s) were not. The end result was a series, which though it wasn't boring by any stretch of the imagination its story was just bad and filled with plot holes.

Then in the sequel Digimon Tamers was directed by Yukio Kaizawa the one who ended up having the most say in the sequel was the head writer Chiaki J. Konaka.

Anime is made from the collective work of many people with the director as the head, however it doesn't mean that the input of the others doesn't have anything to do with the end product. That being said a writer is the one who makes the story itself while the director is the one who tells the story, which is why you sometimes hear criticisms for various anime, tv series, and movies which point out that even though they like/dislike the story told, but hate\love the way the story was told.

At the end of the day even a director has someone he has to answer to, unless he's also filling in that role.
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Old 2011-02-26, 08:37   Link #1074
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Whatever, I didn't read that crap. But there's directors and than there's DIRECTORS. Like in SHAFT it doesn't matter who's directing Shinbo checks over EVERYTHING. Some people take on more importance than their position reveals. Anno didn't direct the new Evangelion movies but you bet your ass he's the main man in that team.
Yeah, he did. He's the chief director of them.

So you're asserting that Kawamori is that type of person? I've never heard him described as such in any interviews or articles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Westlo View Post
Over half his shows (I might as well add in Aquarion Movie as well than since we're listing minor movies he's made) contain a certain type of ending while the ones you listed can't be labeled into any group aside from non-bittersweet?
I think your math is faulty here. Count again.

And I think you're fudging with Aquarion EVOL, since it hasn't even started yet.
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Old 2011-02-26, 08:39   Link #1075
AlaAlba
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just made it in here today and it already page 54

Spoiler for ending:
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Old 2011-02-26, 08:39   Link #1076
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Again, not really, the director isn't the be all end all of any series they direct. A writer can in fact have just as much if not more power over the story than the director. After all they are the ones actually "writing" the story.

An example is a stupid one but, in Digimon Adventure 02 they had a lot of writers who could not see eye to eye on the direction of the show, as each one wanted the story to follow their own planning, and as such the story was all over the place, and even though the director for both the first and second season was the same, the head writer(s) were not. The end result was a series, which though it wasn't boring by any stretch of the imagination its story was just bad and filled with plot holes.

Then in the sequel Digimon Tamers was directed by Yukio Kaizawa the one who ended up having the most say in the sequel was the head writer Chiaki J. Konaka.

Anime is made from the collective work of many people with the director as the head, however it doesn't mean that the input of the others doesn't have anything to do with the end product. That being said a writer is the one who makes the story itself while the director is the one who tells the story, which is why you sometimes hear criticisms for various anime, tv series, and movies which point out that even though they like/dislike the story told, but hate\love the way the story was told.

At the end of the day even a director has someone he has to answer to, unless he's also filling in that role.
Which is pretty much the point I was making, and which Magnus and especially Tak vigorously opposed.

Again, you can't it both ways.
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Old 2011-02-26, 08:41   Link #1077
cheesie
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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
which sounded exactly like someone trying to forbid me from expressing my opinion.
I shall take that as a subtle dig on my part.

You are generally a good person to get along with here, though I do notice that you tend to be quite overly defensive at times when there's no need - the suggestion on moving your previous discussion points to the Romance thread certainly wasn't to 'forbid' you from expressing your own opinions in this movie thread, but more on your proposed discussion that links both the movie and the TV series together. Shifting this to the other thread where it encompasses a wide range of discussion, not to mention having the added advantage of not getting buried under mountains of posts along the way for future read, like what is happening right now, helps.

People here generally recognize the range of their 'posting rights', and, despite escalating some discussions the point of fervor, have respected one another for it.

I did realize you were in quite a disappointed state, and all I have to say is : cheer up.

This'll be the last I'll comment on the matter.
___

Since there was a brief discussion on this, let me tell you what this Alto x Sheryl fan thinks in regards to the ending.

Spoiler:
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Old 2011-02-26, 08:42   Link #1078
Westlo
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Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
I'd argue the same thing for "'Kill 'Em All' Tomino," who only really 'killed 'em all' in a few instances (although you could easily argue that Ideon makes up for all the others).
It's like being typecast, if the majority of your stuff over a period of time is one thing than guess what, even if you have done other stuff too bad! You're typecast!

You've had

Escaflowne 1996
Escaflowne Movie 2000
Arjuna 2001
Macross Zero 2002-2004
Aquarion 2005
Shanghai Dragon 2007 (short film)
Aquarion Movie 2007
Macross Frontier 2007
Macross Frontier Movie 1 2009
Macross Frontier Movie 2 2011

Guess what the majority of them fit, 6 out of 9 (counting the MF movies as one duh), or 6 out of 10 if you want to add Basquash to the mix even though it was more Romain's baby. And it seems you can take Arjuna's as bittersweet as well in some manner... and I doubt Aquarion 2 will be much different considering the characters if they go with the reincarnation route again.

Edit - Escaflowne Movie had the same ending as TV series right? Only seen the opening scene of that...
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Old 2011-02-26, 08:42   Link #1079
choji
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just made it in here today and it already page 54

Spoiler for ending:
Spoiler for certain charm though:
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Old 2011-02-26, 08:43   Link #1080
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Slightly back on topic...after an hour of "getting her ready," I'm currently eating Sheryl out.

She tastes like blueberry cream.

Y'all are jealous.
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