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Old 2010-12-13, 23:10   Link #241
Isako
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I'm kinda neutral, but I do follow some guidelines when it comes to name order. If the anime is set in Japan, then yea, I'm not going to switch name orders. If the anime isn't, then I'll let the VAs dictate how I should order the names.

I kinda see it the same way as editing engrish. You don't really correct engrish in subs, because that's how it was intended to be spoken. Likewise, the same could be said for Japanese names.

When it comes to dubbing obviously, you are free to do w/e you wish.
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Old 2010-12-14, 08:08   Link #242
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iwata View Post
When it comes to dubbing obviously, you are free to do w/e you wish.

No, you are not. While not anime related, the best (worst) example I can give is Persona 3 for the PS2. In the English dub, not only did they keep the Japanese name order, but they kept the honorifics as well. You have no clue how stupid that dub sounded. Thank God for the people who released the UnDub, cause the Dub was bad enough to kill the whole game.

In dubs, western name order should be used, and no honorifics.
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Old 2010-12-14, 08:46   Link #243
Hestia
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Count me in for the no-honorifics side. As a matter of personal opinion, I find it aesthetically annoying to come across "Sakura-san" and "Kotaro-kun" and "Akiko-chan" every other line or so. I understand that the extended use of honorifics may create the illusion of immersion in the japanese language, but it's very different from the actual reality.

More objectively speaking, from what I could gather the main argument in favor of honorifics is that they convey some more subtle nuances to those familiar with them. Let us not forget however that people familiar with the use and meaning of honorifics can also bloody well pick them up through hearing when they're attached to the same name they see in the subtitles. There's no need to hammer it into their brains.

On the other hand, there are probably a couple of honorifics that cannot be translated, the over-celebrated senpai being the first that pops into my mind. In most cases I'd keep that one and try to explain it in a note, depending on the kind of anime.

Changing name order is also another pet peeve of mine. First of all, not all western countries place their "first names" first and "last names" last. Coming from one such country, I found it extremely confusing the first time I met a group that was changing the name order in their subs. I spent half the series thinking there was some clue about the names I was missing. And since a good deal of your audience will not always be true-bred americans, please don't fall into this kind of trap. (Btw, now would be a good time to mention that 9/10 countries have 3-year middle and senior high schools, like Japan, and that while I can name every single obscure kitchen utensil in english, I had no idea what a sophomore precisely might be other than "some kind of college year rank", so umm, yeah)

PS: Off topic, hence the spoiler tag...
Spoiler for Japanese social nuances:
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Old 2010-12-14, 09:26   Link #244
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hestia View Post
Changing name order is also another pet peeve of mine. First of all, not all western countries place their "first names" first and "last names" last. Coming from one such country, I found it extremely confusing the first time I met a group that was changing the name order in their subs.
I'm Romanian, and here we also usually state last name first, so you have a good point: America is not the only country.

Also, on the shows I work on, there will always be honorifics and Japanese name order, regardless of where the action is taking place. For all I know, even if they are in Fantasy Land No.345211, how can I be sure that they don't also have the same culture as Japan? It's a fantasy world, so it can have it, or it can't. For example, Fairy Tail. They are not in Japan (or planet Earth), but they use honorifics all the time, usually for jokes. True, in this particular anime, you can pretty much translate them, and still keep the jokes.

And yes, Bakano with honorifics is a little... odd. But I think they shouldn't have used honorifics in the dialogue to begin with.
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Old 2010-12-14, 11:55   Link #245
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DmonHiro View Post
I'm Romanian, and here we also usually state last name first, so you have a good point: America is not the only country.

Also, on the shows I work on, there will always be honorifics and Japanese name order, regardless of where the action is taking place. For all I know, even if they are in Fantasy Land No.345211, how can I be sure that they don't also have the same culture as Japan? It's a fantasy world, so it can have it, or it can't. For example, Fairy Tail. They are not in Japan (or planet Earth), but they use honorifics all the time, usually for jokes. True, in this particular anime, you can pretty much translate them, and still keep the jokes.
Well my point was, there are some animes out there, like Sora no Woto that have a mixture of Western and Japanese names and are set in a fantasy land. In that case, I would most definitely not put everything in Japanese honorfics and Japanese name order in that situation. In such a case as this, the best thing to do is to well leave it as was intended to be: mixed. Though, I'd probably even take out the honorifics for such an anime, or give them equivalent English substitutions where possible.

And as for as dubbing, I agree. That's kinda what I meant. You aren't bound to stick to Japanese principals when you do a dub. Sorry if I wasn't clear.
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Old 2010-12-14, 18:33   Link #246
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Originally Posted by PCSExponent View Post
The point, which Mentar has perhaps not stated clearly enough and TheFluff & Schneizel seem to be avoiding to respond to, is that even without a "native" understanding of honorifics, someone familiar (again, not on a "native" level of familiarity) with their usage can still benefit from their retainment in a translation. They might still convey more to those familiar with their usage than any localized version you can come up with.
"I benefit from reading something I can already hear."

Yeah okay buddy I don't know why Fluff or I would "avoid" responding to that with anything other than "I disagree".

Also I would say that a common mistake is posting in this thread.
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Old 2010-12-15, 09:26   Link #247
Heibi
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For name order I prefer putting them in the way the character says it. In Frontier that we just finished recently Alto, and occasionally others in the show, would change the order of his name. Most of the time it said as "Saotome Alto" but at others it would be "Alto Saotome".

So a question to all those "we must reverse the order"-freaks - Are you going to reverse the order all the time? I mean, if the anime started out with him and others says Alto Saotome all the time would you reverse it?(say that maybe you didn't know when you start that Alto is his given name).

Or if you're going to really "westernize" the anime to "localize" it maybe you should always replace the family name with the first name. I've seen companies do this.

Anyway I find reversing of a name that is clearly spoken one way to be reversed on the screen.
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Old 2010-12-22, 21:32   Link #248
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Common mistakes, not personal peeves, hmm…
*semi bites her tongue*

1. Forgetting the most simple and fundamental objective of releasing subtitles.
  • Easy on the eyes (colouring, why? And really, typesetting lines to match the colour of characters hair?) x.x
  • Good balance on length of lines and time on screen
  • Simple font so we’re not code breaking or deciphering letters to figure out the words.
  • Spelling, grammar. Give it some love.

2: Not being courteous. *hears the crickets*
Should try to support and help each other, rather than trolling, bitching and slandering for no particular reason save petty self gratification.

(hears the boos and hisses from the audience)
Most of us got shit to deal with offline (in “real life”) away from our computers, so it’d be nice to have less shit to deal with online, especially for a hobby or doing something we enjoy.
It’s IRC, I must be an asshole. Gah!
Riiight, then be a ‘nice asshole’ if you must, plus I got a good shepherd to introduce to you.


3: Thinking that the ever growing broadband, youtube/streaming generation even know or have ever heard of the concept of "fansubs" and its groups, let alone support or appreciate it.
This was an amusing one for me that I discovered offline back in 07/08 post the West's "Naruto/Bleach craze".
A few introduced me to CR back in the day just knowing that they can watch stuff with subs that just "magically" come accompanied.
With tens of ads titled ‘get free streaming anime here!’, it’s just instant ‘click and play’, it’s all too readily available. At least where anime is concerned, there isn’t much of a community anymore.
(Not sure on the deal for Asian drama fansubbing though…)

4. Thinking that it doesn’t actually require some effort, teamwork and compromise.
Got a lazy, esygoing, carefree attitude with school/work offline? It won't change online and depending on group, some people won't apprecate it.

Lastly:
5. Males thinking that they can score with chicks through it.
Correeeeection~♪:
Placing female fansubbers on a pedestal. Keep the blood flow up not down.
We are bad for your health; we can lead you by your dicks and manipulate your hearts, it’s better to live by Rule #16 (or 30), truly.
(Or even better, don't treat us any differently cause we claim to have a set of breasts)

Too long, didn’t read?
In short, I said a common mistake made by fansubbers is the males not coming up with the female equivalent of the term e-peen so we can share the stroking love.
I mean it's all for the common goal of releasing, right?
Also since red is the colour of love and affection, it’d be positively criminal to not accept those lil’ dots of appreciation

Merry Christmas, peeps
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Last edited by Mystique; 2010-12-23 at 00:30.
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Old 2010-12-22, 22:41   Link #249
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystique View Post
In short, I said a common mistake made by fansubbers is the males not coming up with the female equivalent of the term e-peen so we can share the stroking love.[/IMG]

E-vajeen maybe?
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Old 2011-11-18, 23:25   Link #250
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One thing that always irks me when it comes to anime subtitling (whether official or not) is the translation of the words "papa" and "mama" to "dad" and "mom" respectively, or "daddy" and "mommy" or some other variation. Why do this? The words "papa" and "mama" are universally used in languages around the world, including English. Even English speakers who never used the words understand what they mean when they hear them. This practice is as annoying as subbing a character's name as "George" when you can clearly hear the character referred to as "Frank". It's even worse knowing that some of the translators who do this keep honorifics in their subs (I'm looking at you, Eclipse). Oh, so the average anime watcher knows what "-dono", "de arimasu ka" and "onii-chan" mean but they have no idea what "papa" and "mama" mean?

Just because "dad" and "mom" are the more common words in the United States doesn't mean you have to use those words in place of something that already works well enough.
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Old 2011-11-20, 02:11   Link #251
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempester View Post
One thing that always irks me when it comes to anime subtitling (whether official or not) is the translation of the words "papa" and "mama" to "dad" and "mom" respectively, or "daddy" and "mommy" or some other variation. Why do this? The words "papa" and "mama" are universally used in languages around the world, including English. Even English speakers who never used the words understand what they mean when they hear them. This practice is as annoying as subbing a character's name as "George" when you can clearly hear the character referred to as "Frank". It's even worse knowing that some of the translators who do this keep honorifics in their subs (I'm looking at you, Eclipse). Oh, so the average anime watcher knows what "-dono", "de arimasu ka" and "onii-chan" mean but they have no idea what "papa" and "mama" mean?

Just because "dad" and "mom" are the more common words in the United States doesn't mean you have to use those words in place of something that already works well enough.
This is a good point of debate, actually. To put your position in simple terms: You're upset by hearing something different than you're reading. (Audio-Visual Dissonance)

For example, if it were a dub, you'd have no trouble with them saying "Mom" instead of "Mama". In fact, "Mama" might sound strange coming from someone with an american english accent in a dub.
And there's the important thing to weigh:

Audio-Visual Dissonance vs. Naturalness

It's similar to the debate over honorifics.

However there's a crucial difference in this case which changes my take on the issue subject: Papa/Mama _are_ used in english as well as Japanese, but -san, -chan are only used in Japanese and are meaningless in english.

There are ton of english words that are used in different ways than usual english in Japanese. E.g. "Ice" means "ice cream" (or any frozen treat) in Japanese, not "ice". When a character says "Aisu, aisu!" translating it as "Ice, ice!" is simply incorrect, I think everyone will agree.

"Papa" and "Mama" have some very deep connotations when used in american english. Mainly it makes people sound british, or "proper" (and in a couple other accents). No actual US teenager says "papa" or "mama". In Japan, however, it's quite common and doesn't hold any of those extra baggage to its meaning.
I.e. using them as they are said in the Japanese can _add in_ characterization to the voicing that is inappropriate. Using "Mom" or "Dad" fixes that at the cost of increasing Audio-visual dissonance.

When it comes to honorifics, they are meaningless in the english, therefore do not distort the meaning when included (although you can argue their presence might confuse people who are unfamiliar with them). But leaving "papa" and "mama" as is should only be done if the character is appropriate for it, in my personal opinion.

E.g. The fact that people know what they mean: and they "mean" something slightly different in english than in Japanese! That's the fundamental problem.
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Old 2011-11-20, 06:28   Link #252
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I can honestly say, as a Brit, that I've never used papa or mama in my life.
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Old 2011-11-20, 07:07   Link #253
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Quote:
Originally Posted by False Dawn View Post
I can honestly say, as a Brit, that I've never used papa or mama in my life.
That's probably true. The point I was making is that to an American it _sounds british. Or like I said, "proper" in general. Overly polite.
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Old 2011-11-20, 08:34   Link #254
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when aiming for overly polite we're at mother, or father
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Old 2011-11-20, 13:55   Link #255
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Originally Posted by Quarkboy View Post
That's probably true. The point I was making is that to an American it _sounds british. Or like I said, "proper" in general. Overly polite.
I'd say more old-fashioned than "British" necessarily. Perhaps Americans might perceive it as "British" because of classic British literature (Dickensian characters might have said "mama" or "papa" for example, though I don't really remember) but I think the terms were common enough in the United States as well, a century or so ago. Modern British and Australian English both use "mum" and "dad" so far as I know.

Actually, I'd also add that "mama" and "papa" might sound a bit reminiscent of the deep South to American viewers. It may be more of a stereotype than truth, but even today folks down South use "mama" and "papa" or "ma" and "pa". Or at least that's the perception. "Rednecks" and all, you know. And let's not even get started on "yo momma" jokes and whatnot.

Of course the point still stands that it carries unwieldy cultural baggage that isn't present in Japanese, and that translators are justified in swapping out for the more natural terms in their target dialect of English. Words are certainly fascinating, though.
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Old 2012-03-11, 00:45   Link #256
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Originally Posted by DmonHiro View Post
No, you are not. While not anime related, the best (worst) example I can give is Persona 3 for the PS2. In the English dub, not only did they keep the Japanese name order, but they kept the honorifics as well. You have no clue how stupid that dub sounded. Thank God for the people who released the UnDub, cause the Dub was bad enough to kill the whole game.

In dubs, western name order should be used, and no honorifics.
this is really subjective, i heard around that ATLUS are highly praised for their dub, read this tvtropes page
Quote:
Their American branch is also famous for the translation of their games: Woolseyism and Superlative Dubbing abound in games they publish.
i'm also played persona 3 and i loved how they kept the honorifics
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Old 2012-03-11, 11:53   Link #257
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Originally Posted by Kimidori View Post
this is really subjective, i heard around that ATLUS are highly praised for their dub, read this tvtropes page


i'm also played persona 3 and i loved how they kept the honorifics
One man's trash is another man's treasure etc. While I lean more towards keeping honorifics and the like in subs, I'd say dubs need to sound natural in the target language far more than subs do. Honorifics aren't exactly my definition of "natural".
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Old 2012-03-11, 13:19   Link #258
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The "best" part of the Persona 3 dub was how the characters couldn't even pronounce their own names correctly. Given there wasn't even an attempt to get basic pronunciation right, the honorifics sounded out of place and ridiculous.

Retaining honorifics in an undubbed translation is probably okay, but trying to dub them with voices sounds extremely corny in English.

Last edited by Dark Shikari; 2012-03-19 at 15:53.
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Old 2012-03-12, 04:08   Link #259
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I often my scratch my head when I encounter English dubbed animes with English subtitles... They dialogues are different.... hehehe
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Old 2012-06-20, 02:31   Link #260
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Why does every "dos and don'ts in fansubbing" conversation somehow plunge into the honorifics argument? ( ;ω; )
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