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View Poll Results: Claymore - Chapter 107 rating
Perfect 10 21 14.89%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 14 9.93%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 16 11.35%
7 out of 10 : Good 20 14.18%
6 out of 10 : Average 8 5.67%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 3 2.13%
4 out of 10 : Poor 3 2.13%
3 out of 10 : Bad 2 1.42%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 1 0.71%
1 out of 10 : Painful 53 37.59%
Voters: 141. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2010-09-05, 07:18   Link #1021
MalakTawus
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But in the end, she was over confident and her vanity got to her.
Like i said in older posts i don't see it this way.
Imo she knew perfectly well that there was a great chance that her kamikaze attack would fail (since she IS intelligent it doesn't make sense to think otherwise imo),it's just that her friends became too important to her and since she didn't want them to die she betted on this crazy plan since it was the only way to not put her friends in danger.
She did a stupid thing but imo she KNEW that she was doing a stupid thing,it's just that her fear to lose other friends was more important than using her friends to plan a more rational attack.
That was an emotional decision,not a logic one..... and for all of you that don't see how much emotional Miria really is (i'm talking in general here,so don't take it personal) imo you just haven't looked at Miria close enough (and no,perverted stares don't count).


Btw,now that the first ghost is dead (maybe?) i think that even the others are in danger plot-wise:
-Deneve and Helen have so much luck that it's almost unbelivable,but they are often in danger so they could die any moment,and even if i hope that they'll stay alive i can totally see them die together
-Yuma was quite cool in the last chapters,but sinece she's not very strong i always fear for her
-Cinzia....to be honest i don't see her dying anytime soon,probably 'cause it would be a waste after all Yuma did to save her
-Tabitha is the next one to die imo.She is good in sensing,but since we have already Gala that is a lot better in everything she's potentially quite useless,and after what happened to Miria i think she'll do something uber stupid.
-Gala.........i don't even want to think about her death,but imo if she dies the most probable scenario is a huge attack to Rabona from the org
-Miata and Clarice: i can't even imagine their death,i don't know why but i just can't feel it
-Claire: she can't die,not now.If she dies it will happen at the end of Claymore,but i REALLY hope that at least her and Raki will survive.


.....btw,no one has ever suicided in claymore,Claire tried sometimes..........i bet someone will die this way sooner ar later.......

Last edited by MalakTawus; 2010-09-05 at 07:42.
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Old 2010-09-05, 07:34   Link #1022
An4rchy99
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@ Malak.

Vanity means taking excessive pride in something (ie her value for life: other claymores in the HQ and her fear of harming her friends, her own skill set though only the first two is implied) You just summarized those points in a longer manner. Over confidence is just another way of saying it was a stupid decision i.e. kamikaze mission.

Either way I totally agree that Miria is same as Claire in her heart i.e. her emotional state and caring for friends and allies. (Check what I said about Miria character's emotional state)

EDIT: well its just the perspective different people perceive this situation. Sorry to Miria fans out there if this came out in a harsher tone but you have to face the reality.
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Old 2010-09-05, 07:49   Link #1023
MalakTawus
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Vanity means taking excessive pride in something (ie her value for life: other claymores in the HQ and her fear of harming her friends, her own skill set though only the first two is implied) You just summarized those points in a longer manner. Over confidence is just another way of saying it was a stupid decision i.e. kamikaze mission.
I see.It seems i assumed wrongly that you were talking about "vanity for her strenght".

....but to be honest overconfidence was used a bit improperly here if you only mean that it was a stupid decision,'cause confidence was not the cause of that stupid decision....but anyway,i think to understand what you mean.

Last edited by MalakTawus; 2010-09-05 at 08:00.
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Old 2010-09-05, 08:05   Link #1024
An4rchy99
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Good that you are putting in some ideas of future implications. I hope when Deneve die or Helen, they go together. But reallllly hope they don't (I love these too alot). Yuma saving Cynthy and her dying all of a sudden would seem as forced as how Miria hit the dirt. Current status indicates Gala would be more fit to lead them if she wishes (I reallllllllllllllllly hope she does this). Miata and Clarice still seems too early in the plot. I don't perceive they would go any sooner.

But hey if one thing we learned from this chapter is how much Yagi loves to play with us by making the unpredictable happen. But I hope if anyone else goes there is a nicer plot to conclude it.
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Old 2010-09-05, 08:19   Link #1025
irvinethearcher
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MalakTawus
She did a stupid thing but imo she KNEW that she was doing a stupid thing,it's just that her fear to lose other friends was more important than using her friends to plan a more rational attack.
I think that's it. Being responsible for others the whole time, sending them on suicide mission, using them as war resources is nothing someone like miria enjoys.
She said it over and over that she doesn't want to allow any casualties any more(Rabona) and even agatha tried to use it to her advantage to escape taking galatea hostage.
And she said before clare and the others left that she would act even if she had to go alone. Perhaps she planed it in some way the whole time and wanted to get rid of the burden of responsibility for her friends.

IMO yagi knew since chapter 79 that miria would die that way and go alone at rabona. He gave those hints long ago.
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Old 2010-09-05, 08:41   Link #1026
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Well it was an interesting chapter i'll admit, but i'm still not sure if i understood everything that went on in it...

As far as i can see Miria's downfall was yoki release, and going against the #10 who she didn't know about whilst fighting the replacement #1 and #2's. It looks like whoever the #10 is is trained in yoki manipulation as a form of 'battle meditation' (to steal from star wars kotor game). This is evident in Miria's misperception whilst attacking the twins, i don't think she intended to take an arm off either, that was #10 distorting the perceptions, which is why we get to see Miria's shining eyes confirming she had used yoki and lost her cloak, and why Raftela or whatever her name, already had evident yoki veins when the mib was talking to her.

Now this is where the confusing hallucination starts. And what 'could' entirely be a mind trip, given that in the previous chapter it was shown that when Miria puts someone down they won't be getting up anytime soon, and so it's a bit contradictory to have all those warriors get up to join in hacking her down.

Since this is a subset skill of the #10 to get the opponent to hallucinate i think there's gonna be problems trying that on someone who has either a) already faced yoki manipulation and soul links etc and/or b) is a yoki manipulator.

So Miria's bigger mistake wasn't just leaving Tabitha behind but leaving behind a 'yoki sensing' type which is the subset requirement for yoki manipulation. Regardless of having someone watch your back, this is a trick i don't think would work well at all if any of the following had been around... Tabitha, Galatea, Cynthia, Clare, and even i suspect Clarice and Yuma which is pretty much everyone except Helen, Deneve and Miata

I've read the interpretation which said 'yoki synchronicity' which is interesting because right there you have a reason to see why the org really wanted to get rid of Cynthia, who uses the same skill set for healing purposes which we've seen Yuma copy.

Either way i'll have to wait till next month to see if there's a reason we haven't seen Clarice and Miata recently or what's going on with Clare &Co...
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Old 2010-09-05, 08:54   Link #1027
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Either way i'll have to wait till next month to see if there's a reason we haven't seen Clarice and Miata recently
I was disappointed to not see them at all, where were they?
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Old 2010-09-05, 09:03   Link #1028
An4rchy99
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@ Sleepy
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Now this is where the confusing hallucination starts. And what 'could' entirely be a mind trip, given that in the previous chapter it was shown that when Miria puts someone down they won't be getting up anytime soon, and so it's a bit contradictory to have all those warriors get up to join in hacking her down.
I think most of are hoping that somehow this whole thing is a hallucination or an illusion and its not the death scene for Miria. Some of us have already been speculating alternative endings than an immediate death scene for Miria.
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Old 2010-09-05, 09:09   Link #1029
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Originally Posted by Sleepy Speculator View Post
I've read the interpretation which said 'yoki synchronicity' which is interesting because right there you have a reason to see why the org really wanted to get rid of Cynthia, who uses the same skill set for healing purposes which we've seen Yuma copy.
You always find something that escapes everyone's attention. Nice observation.
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Old 2010-09-05, 09:28   Link #1030
SagaraSouske
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Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
Teresa didn't invade Organization's HQ. #10 would have been left in HQ precisely for such emergency. They wouldn't leave themselves completely defenceless, and they wouldn't go for overkill since they were sure #2-5 will be enough for Teresa. What you're suggesting is that they used everything they've got to kill Teresa that wasn't even a bother to them and tried to stay low. As Aimless said, you don't use your trump card if you don't need to, he wrote that 3 times and you still don't get it . MiB used on Miria warriors #3-47, then shrimps and then their trump card. They wouldn't even use shrimps if they didn't need to. On Teresa they also used some random warriors first, when that didn't work they used more drastic measures.
Besides, they wouldn't risk losing this trump card to Teresa. They knew she was exceptionally good in youki sensing and #10 would stand no chance in a fight against her. It would be a gamble that she wouldn't detect her, maybe she would, maybe she wouldn't but losing their #10 and revealing to other Claymores they have mind scrambler wasn't a good idea. If Claymores knew there was sth like that it wouldn't be their trump card and rebellious warriors would be prepared for her.

...

You're missing the point. You don't use your trump card if you don't need to. Why go such roundabout way if you have enough power to take Galatea down? Unless you want to say that someone stronger than Alicia wouldn't be enough to kill Galatea from MiB's point of view?
You guys really need to get out of the narrow focus of calling #10 the "trump card" since it is only in the sense as a trump card to a rebel claymore and nothing else. This so called "trump card" would been useless against an AO that invades the Org or an large army of ABs. #10 has a very limited function and is to be used against a solo, powerful claymore that went against the Org. It is not useful against multiple claymores and it is not useful against AB/AOs. In the three example I raised, if indeed a specific counter claymore existed, it should be used against in each case since all 3 are basically the most powerful rebel claymore at the time. The fact that you keep #10 always on def in the Org is paranoid and Org is not paranoid. The only reason #10 didn't get revealed until now is entirely due to plot-kai.

The whole idea of sending just enough is also unlike the Org's methods. They specifically tailored AFs to deal with Isley and send Alicia + Beth + AFs to deal with Riful. If anything, the Org tends to send what they believe was an overwhelming force against foes that it wants to eliminate or send a force to suicide like Pieta and Slasher Arc. Even if they underestimated Teresa, if #10 existed, they would have sent her along to ensure Teresa gets eliminated.

As for youki sensors pose a danger - Miria herself is a good youki sensor after 7 years of ghost training. She sensed Alicia and Beth moving from very far away before Dietrich got to her. There wasn't any risk of #10 being detected by her since until the ability is used against you, #10 is a just another claymore. But by the time you are under influence of her ability, it's too late to do anything about it. Teresa/Galatea/Irene would have been haxed just like Miria did.

So no, a trump card whose sole purpose is counter a single strong rebel claymore is not a strategic reserve to be held for def at all times. It has specific utility and would be used as what it is intended to do. Rubel use the term specifically against Miria and not as something in general. A real "trump card" of the org to be held in reserve would be something that they can use to deal with any type of threat. The Org clearly doesn't have one since in both Riful and Luciella's cases, their awakening devastated the Org and they were not put down by the Org. This is a constructed scenario by the author to kill Miria off because things just occured too conveniently
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Old 2010-09-05, 09:30   Link #1031
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Yoki Sync are also performed by Galatea and she taught it to Clare. I doubt that's the sole reason the Org wants to get rid of Cynthia.
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Old 2010-09-05, 09:59   Link #1032
SagaraSouske
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Originally Posted by MalakTawus View Post
...........did you miss the part where i say that her friends weren't in danger 'cause this happened BEFORE that?
i admit that if she knew that her friends were in danger she would have gone to help (even if quite useless),but since they weren't in danger Miria didn't act out of character at all.


Well,this is just plain wrong.Even if Miria is not very good with sensing yoki,you can bet that she can feel the immense Yoki from all those monsters and since she's not stupid she knows that she is too weak,said that she would have gone anyway......but since this happens after she is gone to attack the org, this in not even a real problem.
You are contradicting yourself here. First part of your response state Miria didn't think Clare and Co are in danger and second part you mention Miria can sense the large youki from west and knows that she is too weak to help her friends. Although neither are based on facts.

Here are what we know:
1. In Chap 90, Miria sensed Alicia and Beth heading West.
2. Dietch told Miria about the demise of Isley and existence of AF and the fact that Denev and Helen head west to help Clare and co.
3. Miria now know that Alicia/Beth and AF are being sent against Riful and as Galatea explained to Tabitha, Clare and Co + Denev and Helen are in danger as they will likely be in the cross fire between Riful and Alicia/Beth + AF.

Knowing that she knows nothing about Destroyer nor Priscilla at this point. Her logical choice should have been go west and not east. Her friends ARE in danger and she CAN help against Riful as they have encounter her before. Due to Alicia and Beth heading that way, it's even more imperative for her to go help her friends in the west if she wants to increase their odds of survival.

On the other hand, she have just heard about a new weapon created by the Org - AFs and was used to kill Isley. She doesn't wonder what other new weapons might have been created by the org or if she can handle AFs by herself when Isley have failed?

The choice would have been crystal clear to the Miria we know.
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Old 2010-09-05, 11:04   Link #1033
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Miria is 100% alive.

First of all that last page in 107 was totally unnecessary. It was design to manipulate the readers mind (Many has fallen for Yagi mind manipulation trick and don't even know it).

Remember when Clare met Ruble after they left Mira in Ramona? Ruble told Clare if they were captured by the Org they would be experimented on. Mira was clearly an easy pray.

Have no fear Mira fans, she is somewhere in the Org's lab with no limbs.
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Old 2010-09-05, 11:09   Link #1034
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Just read the chapter and well that was quite a lame way to go out, kinda expected more of a bang from Miria but oh well.

I guess the only person I expect to die in some flashy big bang way would be Helen
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Old 2010-09-05, 11:22   Link #1035
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Originally Posted by SagaraSouske View Post
(...)This so called "trump card" would been useless against an AO that invades the Org or an large army of ABs. #10 has a very limited function and is to be used against a solo, powerful claymore that went against the Org. It is not useful against multiple claymores and it is not useful against AB/AOs.
For now we don't know whether she would be useless against ABs or not, that's just your guess. You also can't know whether she can be used against more than one Claymore or not. Rubel was only speculating here. "If only", "you may" only mean that she would have higher chances of survival if she wasn't alone (which is no surprise). But somehow I doubt Rubel would know this #10 so well since she was rarely (if ever) used. #10 using her abilities should be able to take down the strongest warrior even if there was a huge bunch of rebellious warriors with her. Also, she might be able to mess up perception of mass of Claymores. Maybe she wouldn't be able to make them all completely bonkers but messing up with many of them, why not? We don't know extent of her powers. And as I've written earlier she might be able to turn warriors against each other.
And MiB are not paranoid by not revealing their trump card or however you want to call her. That's common sense. If it was known to everyone she wouldn't be their trump card but almost useless tool since if some group wanted to rebel they would take into account her abilities. Without that knowledge they would need a quick thinker like Clare or Galatea to deal with such situation swiftly but that still wouldn't guarantee them immunity. Anyway how I look at it #10 is a very valuable asset to MiB and could become a deciding factor in battle between ghosts and the organization.
Quote:
In the three example I raised, if indeed a specific counter claymore existed, it should be used against in each case since all 3 are basically the most powerful rebel claymore at the time. The fact that you keep #10 always on def in the Org is paranoid and Org is not paranoid. The only reason #10 didn't get revealed until now is entirely due to plot-kai.
You're still missing the point here and didn't understand my earlier post at all. There was no reason for using #10 to hunt Teresa down since they were sure #2-5 would suffice (and as it turned out they were right in a way). Teresa wasn't much of a threat to them and they knew it (after Teresa injured first death squad they knew it definitely - she cared only about Clare, if she was dangerous to them she wouldn't let Orsay live). They were hunting her down because of their principles not because they felt unsafe. Miria on the other hand attacked HQ while they were quite vulnerable. There was no reason to hold back and yet they waited with dispatching shrimps. If they used #10 to hunt Teresa down they would either lose her (there were high chances of that, she would be travelling and could be killed by some random AB even, or Teresa who excelled in youki perception) - and we know she was too valuable to them - or they would succeed but Irene and co. would know about her existence and they didn't want that. Once this trick would be known she would be useless. They obviously wouldn't get rid of #2-5 just because they knew too much.

Example that you've brought up only shows that they usually judged the strength of their dispatched teams accurately (but that's only one example so it could go either way). In fact Alicia and Beth +AFs weren't enough for Riful, Duff and the Destroyer that turned out to be super-powerful. They would have just enough fire-power for defeating Riful and Duff but for her secret research (which they knew she was conducting) not at all. AFs were there to make up for soul-link's weakness and as backup in case Riful's project was completed. If it was only Alicia & Beth against Riful and Duff I wouldn't be so sure they would defeat them. Even if they did they would be in a similar state Isley was when he fought Luciella.

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Originally Posted by SagaraSouske View Post
(...) Knowing that she knows nothing about Destroyer nor Priscilla at this point. Her logical choice should have been go west and not east. Her friends ARE in danger and she CAN help against Riful as they have encounter her before. Due to Alicia and Beth heading that way, it's even more imperative for her to go help her friends in the west if she wants to increase their odds of survival.
Miria didn't even twitch when Dee told her that Helen received serious injury. She didn't ask what this "serious injury" was. Also notice that Dee didn't reveal to her they're not ghosts any more. Probably that was the reason why she wasn't too concerned since it was possible to heal her without decloaking (Yuma and Cynthia released their youki to speed this process up but for all Miria knew they didn't need to rush). Also she knew that with Helen, Deneve, Cynthia and Yuma is the strongest ghost - Clare so her decision is completely understandable to me.
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Old 2010-09-05, 11:43   Link #1036
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Originally Posted by Awakened View Post
Miria is 100% alive.

First of all that last page in 107 was totally unnecessary. It was design to manipulate the readers mind (Many has fallen for Yagi mind manipulation trick and don't even know it).

Remember when Clare met Ruble after they left Mira in Ramona? Ruble told Clare if they were captured by the Org they would be experimented on. Mira was clearly an easy pray.

Have no fear Mira fans, she is somewhere in the Org's lab with no limbs.
Lol...no limb for long time = no regeneration = handicapped = useless = still dead imo
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Old 2010-09-05, 11:47   Link #1037
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So many good arguments and counter arguments. I'm totally going to have to go back and read the last 4-5 chapters just because this chapter threw me into a loop.

Still on the fence on what I think of the chapter. Haven't even voted yet. Perhaps after rereading I'll come to a conclusion. However, I'm still stumped on how the next chapter will progress. I'm still putting my chips on Miria will be left alive for some reason.

My only guess is that the org may put her in such a weaken state that they could use her to draw the others in. Perhaps create some sort of animosity within the ghosts. Stringing up your leader and throwing her on display is quite a sight to see and most wouldn't be able to keep such a cool head about it. It may be a gamble for the org, seeing as they could be facing a full assault from the ghosts and risk the chance of someone snatching up Miria and fleeing. However with #10 in the back, someone else would surely fall.

Going with that though, what if the ghosts appear and never draw their blades? What if they took a purely defensive stance and dodged their way in close enough to a MiB do some heavy damage? Would #10 have enough cause to use her power before hand?

So much that could happen... Le' Sigh.

**Edit: Also, any clarification on the "?" at end of the chapter from the raw? Haven't really heard much more on that.

Last edited by I <3 Teresa; 2010-09-05 at 11:49. Reason: Adding a question.
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Old 2010-09-05, 11:52   Link #1038
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@Sagara
Quote:
You are contradicting yourself here. First part of your response state Miria didn't think Clare and Co are in danger and second part you mention Miria can sense the large youki from west and knows that she is too weak to help her friends. Although neither are based on facts.
I begin to think that you can't read.Reread my post again 'cause there is no contradiction.
Miria friends AREN'T IN DANGER AT THAT MOMENT!!!!!!!
All i said is that EVEN IF (i said "if") her friends where really in danger she would have felt the huge yoki........

Quote:
1. In Chap 90, Miria sensed Alicia and Beth heading West.
So what?West is big you know?
Like Claire said it's not that just 'cause since they go west they'll meet Riful,they were just unlucky (or Claire was attracted by Raph.....or whatever other reason,it doesn't matter).
And on the contrary,the fact that A&B are going to attack Riful is theoretically another reason that Claire and company aren't in danger since those monsters are busy fighting each other.

Quote:
2. Dietch told Miria about the demise of Isley and existence of AF and the fact that Denev and Helen head west to help Clare and co.
No,this is all wrong.
Helen and Deneve aren't going to help Claire at all!!!
They are going to Cinzia so she can cure Helen's eye.



......................................wait a second!
Don't tell me that you consider "great danger" the fact that Claire and company are near the battle between Riful and A&B,'cause if that's what you mean than we have a misunderstanding.Even if Gala called that situation dangerous imo that's absolutely not dangerous at that time,i consider the situation "REALLY DANGEROUS" when the destroyer comes in action (and than Prissy),before that imo the situation is nothing special that Miria should really worry,Claire and friends can handle that without problem,or at least escape if things get hot.
Before the destroyer, Claire was at best in an hypothetical dangerous situation with a really low probability.

Last edited by MalakTawus; 2010-09-05 at 12:11.
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Old 2010-09-05, 11:54   Link #1039
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Originally Posted by SagaraSouske
The only reason #10 didn't get revealed until now is entirely due to plot-kai.
It was no "plot-kai". You think of it only in a way of power. But information is powerful also. Knowledge is power too.
So if the org would expose number 10 and send them with irene, noelle, sophia and priscilla. PERHAPS theresa would have fallen and priscilla wouldn't have awakened. BUT
Theresa was no ordinary claymore. The org did not know about her strength but they did know about her yoki sensing therefore a sensing genius like theresa could have sensed that something is wrong snapped out of the illusion and killed number 10.
the secret technique would have been exposed to a lot of claymores.
Miria for example would have easily won the fight if she would have known about #10.
She would have dismembered the twins than killed number 10 and would have never released an ounce of yoki.
I am not even sure if those other claymores who killed miria are knowing what really happened to miria. Those brainwashed twins are only killing robots they will probably not think about it at all how they suddenly were able to wound miria and the others were still wounded and have probably seen nothing at all.
But sending number 10 with an execution squad would have probably revealed her secret to the squad.
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Old 2010-09-05, 12:03   Link #1040
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From Rubel said...it seemed like there have been previous #10's...if they were held within the org, how'd they die?
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