|View Poll Results: Claymore - Chapter 107 rating|
|9 out of 10 : Excellent||14||9.93%|
|8 out of 10 : Very Good||16||11.35%|
|7 out of 10 : Good||20||14.18%|
|6 out of 10 : Average||8||5.67%|
|5 out of 10 : Below Average||3||2.13%|
|4 out of 10 : Poor||3||2.13%|
|3 out of 10 : Bad||2||1.42%|
|2 out of 10 : Very Bad||1||0.71%|
|1 out of 10 : Painful||53||37.59%|
|Voters: 141. You may not vote on this poll|
|2011-08-05, 18:09||Link #1561|
Let's play a game!
Join Date: Sep 2006
Had a general feeling that I disagreed with you, though there's a bit of ambiguity between the statements you disagree with and the statements that you assert. So, going along with your analysis to see how my conclusions match up with yours.
Using ""'s instead of quote blocks to keep things from getting out of hand.
Also, as much as I hate the general practice, going to use abbreviations for the twins to help keep them straight.
T1/T2 - Twin 1 or twin 2 in standard human form
T1A/T2A - Twin 1 or twin 2 in awakened or partially awakened form (ie: not the one holding the soul ball)
Continuity of T1 or T2 referring to the same individual not guaranteed across the full chapter. Will note when I reset the reference if continuity can't be assured.
1) Pictures 1 and 2, which are pages 1, 2 and 3, but 2+3 are a full spread so considering them together as page "2".
"one twin is using awakened form, the other is fighting without releasing youki at all."
Agreed. Their typical fight strategy. (using T1A+T2)
"Miria fails to incapacitate the one that's not releasing."
Would disagree here. There's no indication of an explicit attempt, so not valid to say that she 'failed'. Miria phantom-dodged T2 and then crossed swords with her.
"Also in picture 1 we see she struggles against even one twin (awakened one)."
Would disagree. She dodged the first attack by T1A, but T2 took advantage of Miria's airtime to position herself to where she could attack before Miria could move away. The "ku" was annoyance at the cooperative advantage T2 got due to the dodge.
"Then for some reason the awakened twin doesn't attack but the first one takes over and uses only 30% of youki +awakened parts but the other isn't in shrimp form and attacks Miria using 0-10% of youki so this attack is weaker than previous one since in previous one was completely awakened. "
Long run-on sentence. Moving on to page 3 and 4 for this as well.
T1A reverts to T1 while T2 makes the attack against falling Miria. T2 continues the attack, and, since T1 is no longer awakened, is able to draw on her own power to make a 'surprise' attack, which Miria dodged. T2A presses the attack, positioning Miria so that T1 can attack from behind.
Miria notices the pin just in time, and phantoms out as the twins make their scissor attack.
Yes, the raw power of the attack is 'weaker' (possibly; conceivably each individual attack was just as strong since each used the awakened form; cf: Quick Sword). However the point was not pure strength, but tactical advantage. Pin Miria down in a desperate defense to allow the other twin to make an unobserved attack from the rear. Excellent use of tactics.
2) The entirety of this block, I don't have any particular disagreement with, though there are subtle aspects of the fight which are entirely up to subjective interpretation, and comparing with Raki's fight is largely guesswork.
3) "At this point Miria was really close to leaking youki since the fight exhausted her (pic 5)."
While it's definitely tiring, saying that "the fight exhausted her" is a bit of an overstatement. Even Rubel's statement is that exhaustion is "beginning to set in". One must also consider that, even if they weren't especially challenging, she has had to work her way through ~30 other Claymores already before this point.
"On the other hand we don't see that twins made a sweat."
They aren't sweating after their fight with Roxanne either. Just bleeding a lot. Their complete blankness when fighting makes me think that you wouldn't notice exhaustion in them until they were just about ready to fall over dead.
"Funny thing is, they've weakened their attacks yet again (the first weakening was when they've stopped using their awakened forms) attacking Miria while not using youki at all (picture 6). I don't know how you would interpret it but to me it's clear they've noticed Miria was holding back so they also held back."
This I'll agree with you on. This is the point that is most comparable to Raki's fight.
"They've also noticed that Miria is exhausted while they weren't so they slowed down. And only then Miria thought that it would be easy to cut their heads off."
Debatable that they slowed down. But I'd argue that it should be trivial for her to cut off their heads regardless. Any time she's used her phantom, it was always to move some significant distance away. It would have been easy to instead cut their heads off at those points.
4) The most distinctive point in this sequenece in Miria's reaction to cutting off the twin's arm. She was surprised and dismayed; she hadn't intended to nor wanted to do that. I will agree that there doesn't seem to be any evidence that Raftela is interfering at this point. It was purely an accident, most likely her body reacting instinctively to the attack while her mind was debating whether it was proper for her to do so.
Your comments about the other twin's reaction and interaction with Miria seem misplaced. Note the MiB's comments about the effect. Essentially, T2 got mad, but in her own somewhat quiet way (instead of the yelling and screaming other, more tempermental types might do), and immediately started releasing at 30%+ in her attempt to retaliate.
"Miria however was basically fighting as if she had 30% youki released 7 years ago (otherwise she couldn't do her phantom, at least not until Pieta).So the difference is huge and shows that what Miria did was nothing. "
Unfortunately I don't really understand the point you're trying to make here, as the assertion doesn't seem to make any sense.
5) "It seems that twins' berserk attack was just enough to make her leak youki and a while later Raftela marched in and it was over."
"At this point I don't really see much of a difference between Hysteria's technique and Miria's. As picture 9 shows Miria was also doing her move with 1 mm margin."
Disagree. She wasn't using her technique during that event, she was merely evading per normal battle tactics. If you know the exact limit of the opponent's attack, you stay a bit further back than that point. Maybe millimeters, maybe inches, but certainly you're not going to back up an entire extra step. Every step further you move back is another step you have to move forward in order to attack again, which does nothing but slow you down.
You play it safe while you take the measure of an opponent, but once combat has been engaged for real you stay in as close as possible.
Plus, that's entirely separate from her Phantom use, which she always leaves a *huge* margin for. After every Phantom, she always reappears several meters away.
Why? Well, remember that bit about it being easy to take their heads? I suspect that if she has absolutely no margin for error at the speeds she moves while using the Phantom. If she doesn't judge per movement path exactly, someone (possibly the opponent, probably her) is going to lose some bits and pieces. She's not comfortable moving that close to the opponent at those speeds, so her Phantoms always maintain a wide distance from the target rather than practically merging with the opponent, as Hysteria does.
As a personal comparison, I'm extremely reluctant to get closer than a yard or two away from the edge of a tall building, while there are construction workers who are perfectly fine eating lunch on an I-beam at the top of a skyscraper.
6) "In picture 10 we see another proof of Miria being overconfident. How come she didn't do such move earlier? Because when fighting two of them she couldn't (which she admitted herself). I.e. with two of them she wouldn't be able to chop their heads off."
No. She at no point (here, especially, after her internal thought process) intended to cut their heads off. Her intent here was to "seal her movement"; ie: knock her out, put her to sleep, use the paralysis attack, whatever the actual implementation was.
The problems with doing it against both twins together, that I see:
a) They work extremely well together, cooperatively, in coordinating their attacks and movements. Since they watch each others' back, attacking one from behind is rather difficult without the other taking action.
b) Even if they aren't explicitly back-to-back, they seem to have a shared awareness of the combat situation. That is, you can't really sneak up on one of them while the other is able to even see you approach.
c) They can awaken on the fly. There is the possibility that whatever attack she used to paralyze the other Claymore warriors wouldn't have worked as well or properly on an awakened twin, rendering the attack useless.
"If Miria would be so much faster as she claimed she should have been able to do it but the fact she didn't shows us she was being too generous to herself."
While I agree that Miria 'should' have been able to do it, there is also the fact that we don't know the full prerequisites for her disabling attack to work. From what we've seen, I'd guess that she needs to be able to use it against an opponent that is mostly defenseless, unprepared and/or unaware, or just generally caught with their pants down, so to speak. Thus why she made the move to shift to behind the remaining twin.
7) "Maybe I should have asked it at the start, but why she didn't release youki at this point is beyond me."
I would argue that, from what we've seen throughout the series, releasing yoki is, for a Claymore, the equivalent of declaring "I seriously want to kill you." Miria has at this point decided explicitly against killing them. Thus releasing yoki would be giving mixed signals.
8) "The first thing tells us that since they did not know about Raftela (no Claymore knew) and yet they were not going all out they didn't consider Miria as much of a threat."
I would amend that to say that they didn't consider Miria to be a lethal threat. That is, she hadn't killed any of the warriors up to that point, so there was no reason to expect that she would take lethal action now. This changed when Miria accidentally cut off one of the twins' arm, leading the other to upgrade the threat status considerably and go all berserker on her.
In fact, one could argue that the entirety of her failure hinged on that one careless mistake. If she hadn't taken the one twin's arm, the other wouldn't have gone berserk on her. If she hadn't been so pressed, she wouldn't have started to leak yoki. If she hadn't started releasing yoki, Raftela could not have affected her. If Raftela couldn't affect her then it was only a matter of time before she would likely subdue the twins, and then she could have waltzed through the MiBs. Of course then she'd probably fall to the abyssal feeders...
Of course the primary argument was about the status of Miria relative to a standard #1 Claymore, and none of this convinces me of it being any more or less likely.
Personally, I'm inclined to think that she's a solid #2, with special advantages such as leadership, and able to match some #1s under certain circumstances. The mindset of a leader is different from what one would expect from someone who wants to be the absolute best (ie: #1), and leads to a different power grid growth, likely more overall balanced than truly exceptional. See Irene during Teresa's hunt.
|2011-08-06, 01:26||Link #1562|
Join Date: Jul 2008
Do you think current Miria not cloaked is able to defeat current Galatea (and Ophelia was around Galatea's level, she had very good stats as a claymore)?
Since Miria has not half-awakened again, she didn't increase her yoki power like Claire (at least not that much, since Miria had a big yoki from the very beginning).
I think Miria under normal circumstances (not being cloaked) wouldn't win that easily over Galatea.
|2011-08-14, 05:03||Link #1563|
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: The town where Copernicus was born.
1) "Would disagree here. There's no indication of an explicit attempt, so not valid to say that she 'failed'. Miria phantom-dodged T2 and then crossed swords with her."
Yes, there's no indication. And yes, word "fail" may not have been the best to use. Let me reiterate. Miria, despite having a good clue how one twin can fight in an awakened form (seeing them switch but never two of them fighting in such form at the same time) did not target the T2 after escaping from T1A. So unless she knew that she would risk the other awakening for good (although seeing how fast they were in switching and de-awakening the chances of that were rather slim) it would just mean she wasn't fast enough to do it.
"Would disagree. She dodged the first attack by T1A, but T2 took advantage of Miria's airtime to position herself to where she could attack before Miria could move away. The "ku" was annoyance at the cooperative advantage T2 got due to the dodge."
Would disagree. It would be hard for Yagi to write "ku" while having Miria's back in the picture and she said ku just after T1A attacked. Also, T1A should be much faster than T1 not using youki and Miria managed only - with difficulty which ku suggests - to dodge T1A and couldn't position herself so that she wouldn't be vulnerable to attack performed by T2. So T1A was enough to make her struggle. She couldn't do a THING to T1A and couldn't do a thing to 0% youki T2 when she attacked Miria using her being cornered by her sister. At this time she was attacked by 0% T2 and she didn't use this chance to incapacitate her because she just couldn't. She wasn't prepared and properly positioned to do it and wasn't fast enough to change it all of this because of T1A.
"T1A reverts to T1 while T2 makes the attack against falling Miria. T2 continues the attack, and, since T1 is no longer awakened, is able to draw on her own power to make a 'surprise' attack, which Miria dodged. T2A presses the attack, positioning Miria so that T1 can attack from behind."
Which was possible only because their attacks were too slow. Miria could barely manage to dodge T1A attacks but she could do it, so it's no wonder she could dodge attacks performed by unawakened twins. Yes, there were two of them fighting combined but the same situation was earlier. Instead of pushing Miria to the limit by attacking with T1A + T2 combination they've powered down. I don't see how that could add element of surprise to their attacks by doing that. They were not cloaked even at 0% youki. Maybe she would make less noise and wouldn't cast such a big shadow (although Miria might not have noticed it if T1A would be "on the right side of the sun") but that's irrelevant when taking into account much higher speed and power advantage (and attack range). It would be obvious to Miria that the other twin was somewhere close and would attack and she was on her guard and knew from which directions she was likely to be attacked (of course from the directions she wouldn't be able to spot) and ultimately everything came down to speed difference.
"Yes, the raw power of the attack is 'weaker' (possibly; conceivably each individual attack was just as strong since each used the awakened form; cf: Quick Sword). However the point was not pure strength, but tactical advantage. Pin Miria down in a desperate defense to allow the other twin to make an unobserved attack from the rear. Excellent use of tactics. "
And they couldn't have use the same tactic in a T1A + T2 scenario? How come? Besides being faster the other twin would also have a wider range of attacks so it would be additionally more difficult to dodge. Don't forget that Miria was on a defensive this whole time and she was being cornered just by 30% T2 (or maybe more than 30% seeing her awakened tentacles)! And you're most probably wrong by saying it was as QS. In QS you store ALL your youki in your arm, we don't have any indication it was the case in their case (awakened beings have their youki spread out, they do not enhance particular parts of the body at the cost of other parts at their will AFAWK). They were using their awakened limbs but the rest of their bodies were unawakened so they weren't as fast or as strong or as armored, it was only a fraction of their awakened powers.
3) "While it's definitely tiring, saying that "the fight exhausted her" is a bit of an overstatement. Even Rubel's statement is that exhaustion is "beginning to set in". One must also consider that, even if they weren't especially challenging, she has had to work her way through ~30 other Claymores already before this point."
Let's be honest here, Miria could have insta-KOed 27 out of these 30 Claymores with one phantom. And as far as Miria knew she could have performed her phantom as many times as she wanted (we know it thanks to Deneve who most likely knew about new phantom from Miria herself when she told Helen about it). Obviously Miria did not feel a thing at this point and while it may have shortened her number of mirages she could perform before starting to leak youki by 1 or 2 mirages it was insignificant when compared to the strain she had to endure while fighting twins. Clearly they were making her use her new phantom to the limit and at some point to keep her speed she had to leak youki. Maybe if she didn't go to the absolute speed limit of her new mirage she could really do her phantoms many, many times but with them Miria couldn't go half-assed. And yet she said "I could easily chop their heads off" which is the main thing I have problem with and with which I disagree seeing her performance.
"They aren't sweating after their fight with Roxanne either. Just bleeding a lot. Their complete blankness when fighting makes me think that you wouldn't notice exhaustion in them until they were just about ready to fall over dead."
Actually we also see "haa, haa, haa" from them which suggests exhaustion. Earlier we don't see that because it was the start of the fight and because we haven't seen much of a fight (more like not at all). In short, if anything it confirms that Miria was a much easier opponent to them and it certainly does not in any way suggest they just don't show exhaustion. What matters the most however is that while we could see signs of exhaustion (so to not overstate) on Miria's face we don't see anything like it on twins' faces.
"Debatable that they slowed down. But I'd argue that it should be trivial for her to cut off their heads regardless. Any time she's used her phantom, it was always to move some significant distance away. It would have been easy to instead cut their heads off at those points."
In that case I wouldn't see how her phantom would be worse than Hysteria's elegant attack. Also I would wonder why would it be more difficult to target their necks or stomachs with a blunt side of the sword to make them unconscious (similar to what Deneve did in Riful encounter). I think the main problem of Miria that her phantom is used mainly as a defensive measure is because while she has super fast legs she doesn't have super fast swings and she certainly does not have as fast swings as Hysteria and doesn't have enough overall power to match her leg's speed, hence she can't perform such precise attacks. So when she would try to chop their heads off while doing her phantom it would either be countered since she wouldn't have swing fast enough or she wouldn't be able to hit their necks since at the moment she would start the cut she would be 10 m away the next moment and would only manage to make a shallow, easily closed wound.
4) I'll admit she was surprised and dismayed but you haven't commented my main point - she cut an arm of a 0% T1. So while I could admit that Miria would be able to defeat/kill 0% twins I doubt she could do it if they were more serious. You also seem to use an excuse of Miria being dismayed for her being on a defensive which I disagree with. She couldn't have a better chance to deal with the twins than when one had no arm and the other had no backup and she failed to do it because IMO the other twin did not let her because T2 was too fast at 30%.
"Miria however was basically fighting as if she had 30% youki released 7 years ago (otherwise she couldn't do her phantom, at least not until Pieta).So the difference is huge and shows that what Miria did was nothing."
Let me try to explain what I meant by that and correct me if I'm wrong. Basically I meant that Miria defeating 0% T1 while she herself was using 30% youki was nothing special. After half-awakening she had almost the same speed and power of phantom as 7 years ago in Slasher's arc when she had to use 30% youki. We know thanks to Deneve that half-awakening allows to increase youki they can use at normal times (literally she said: "My first youriki release in 7 years seems to be increasing my youki almost to the limit even during normal times"), i.e. they have more access to it while not releasing it externally. But they are using huge amounts of it as Claymores, it just doesn't show. That's a huge advantage. To be able to use 80% youki and not awaken. They don't have to awaken any more to have huge power boost. And Miria has that access to her hidden power. You may disagree here but that was the point I was making relevant to Miria vs. twins discussion since it would show (assuming I'm right) that Miria wasn't fighting them at 0% but she was using more youki, it just couldn't be detected. So it's not like Miria would have be much more powerful if she would release 30% youki (at least not in leg speed). Although after seeing 116th chapter this argument has become weaker and has made Miria a retard at the same time (by not releasing youki when fighting Riguald or twins). I've written sth more about this here.
5) "Every step further you move back is another step you have to move forward in order to attack again, which does nothing but slow you down."
Sure, but the opponent is also moving towards you, and not one but two of them. So in this case I would think that side-stepping or backing away that one step further would be more safe since the opponent would nevertheless be close. Miria would always be closer to one of them than the other and could attack that one. Plus if she would actually be able to make a bigger dodging move she should also be able to make an attack move this much closer.
6) Yes, she did not intend to cut their heads off but she said it would be EASY to cut their heads and that's the problem I've been arguing from the start. It was NOT easy to her since she couldn't have incapacitated them even when she was being serious and was going as much as she could without releasing youki. And since she couldn't do a slightly more difficult thing to even one of them (and in 0% mode, not 30% or awakened !!!) I don't see how she could EASILY cut heads of both of them.
7) Possible maybe, but not too good argument IMO. After all, at this point she had already defeated all Claymores and twins were the only ones left (as far as she knew). So seeing that she could "easily cut their heads off" if she released youki they shouldn't even have time to think that she intends to "seriously kill them". Besides, you're indirectly admitting here that twins must have known Miria didn't want to kill them, which would further explain why they also weren't serious and didn't fight in a T1A+T2 combination the whole time.
8) I pretty much agree with everything you said here.
"Of course the primary argument was about the status of Miria relative to a standard #1 Claymore, and none of this convinces me of it being any more or less likely."
Actually, what I was trying to argue here primarily was that Miria, contrary to what she thought, COULD NOT cut the twins' heads easily. I agree she's a strong #2 but the way I see it she would never have #1 position unless there would be warriors of lower class than the shrimp twins.