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Old 2010-10-16, 09:51   Link #381
sayde
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Originally Posted by Fran~ View Post
You can think how long that filler would be?... i only recall Naruto's pre-time skip fillers.
Yup. I remember that too. 80+ eps of pure awesomesauce.
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Old 2010-10-16, 09:58   Link #382
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Originally Posted by Fran~ View Post
IMHO, Naruto is in a whole new level, Kishi found a way to develop the plot creating a logic plot based in Madara's ambition. You got new characters, the return of old characters and the explanation of why certain things happened... and the explanations were quite solid.



That explains everything
Kishi hasn't been quite good with Sasuke lately.


You can think how long that filler would be?... i only recall Naruto's pre-time skip fillers. Well, perhaps animation team can make a fun-to-watch filler, who knows?

The Arrancar arc wasn't bad, it wasn't like the SS arc, but it wasn't THIS bad. It would be helpful to know the flaming war at 2chan.




Well, animation will be awesome, you can see it right in the op sequences. But, that's not my point. The conclusion, the loose ends, etc... that's what sucks, IMHO, which is not the ultimate truth though
I guess your points about Naruto are true, and for me all Bleach fillers expect two were boring (Zanpaktou rebellion arc and Bount arc were great two me)



The ending of Decide I agree does suck, but what does the ending have to do with making the ratings just skyrocket down. I mean in anime version and maybe since the anime has been making the most changes from the manga I see it not really mattering. I mean I remember hating certain parts in the top 3 espada battle and the anime makes changes especially with Kyoraku's zanpaktou that makes it understandable. So in all I can see the anime actually filling some if not all potholes

This chapter also helps. 423 is pretty good so yea that helps and it also keeps the hope up this guy expressing 423 better than anybody http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-_75BWqGf4
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Old 2010-10-16, 11:06   Link #383
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Ah Haak i gotta disagree a little with you there. While hueco mundo was a similar rescue the chick angle other wise up until the deicide chapters i was enjoying myself. Most of he battles werent to bad compared to the soul society battles which were.....less than great
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Originally Posted by secretzfan View Post
Well he recycled it fro the soul society arc, abut it was better than the soul society arc. The arrancar arc had more over the soul society arc. The battles were much more awesome than the soul society arc. Then your entire thought goes wrong at the near end when Decide comes in, but the base is from soul society arc
I don't see it. What exactly did Hueco Mundo have?

It certainly wasn't the characters.

In Soul Society, Ichigo fought two characters that were torn between their duty to the rules and their love for Rukia, and a Blood Knight with a cute little girl that DIDN'T turn out to be his Morality Pet, but a metaphor for what he was really like inside. In Hueco Mundo, Ichigo fought a cliche Only One Allowed To Defeat You, and a cliche Nietzsche Wannabe villian. The Heuco Mundo Blood Knight counterpart turned out to be completely played straight. Soul Society had a talented, powerful and likable boy who, in any other story, would've solved everything like the Gary Stu he was set up to be. Instead he was completely used by the Big Bad (who DIDN'T turn out to be snakey shady character everybody believed to be) and promptly taken down in a matter of seconds. In Heuco Mundo we have a woman arrancar who inexplicably turned into a child form because she was hit in the head once (Because THAT explains everything).

It certainly wasn't the plot.

Both stories were pretty typical Rescue the Damsel in Dsitress, but Soul Society had internal politics and fighting that lead to the central issue and was a key factor that allowed the heroes to get as far as they did. In Heuco Mundo the only reason, dumbass Ichigo survived after getting his ass handed to him by Ulquiorra (Ironically, Ichigo wouldn't have fought him and lost had he not lost his composure and thus proved Ulquiorra's point), was because Grimmjow is a really dumb fuck. The clever twist that Ulquiorra was not, in fact, the strongest of them all as he was hyped up to be was promptly shat on when he revealed his second form (for no actual reason).

And what was so good about the fights?

As far as I'm aware of, both the Soul Society arc and the Heuco Mundo arc sucked ass with the fights. In Heuco Mundo, they were all pretty much resolved with New Powers As The Plot Demands, with the only exception of Byakuya vs Zommari which was basically resolved by comparing cock sizes. Nnoitra lost to kendo for fuck sake. Atleast Soul Society had a semi-intelligent Ichigo vs Ikkaku fight, and Ichigo's hollow form wasn't so God damn convenient against Byakuya. Ichigo's final fight with Ulqiorra spanned over Twelve. Agonizising. Weeks. And did you fucking see Girmmjows ressurection form?

So as far as i can see, Soul Society was atleast passably okay whilst Heuco Mundo was just ridiculous.

[/rant]
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Old 2010-10-16, 11:33   Link #384
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
I don't see it. What exactly did Hueco Mundo have?

It certainly wasn't the characters.

In Soul Society, Ichigo fought two characters that were torn between their duty to the rules and their love for Rukia, and a Blood Knight with a cute little girl that DIDN'T turn out to be his Morality Pet, but a metaphor for what he was really like inside. In Hueco Mundo, Ichigo fought a cliche Only One Allowed To Defeat You, and a cliche "Emotions are irrational, there is no hope!" villian. The Heuco Mundo Blood Knight counterpart turned out to be completely played straight. Soul Society had a talented, powerful and likable boy who, in any other story, would've solved everything like the Gary Stu he was set up to be. Instead he was completely used by the Big Bad (who DIDN'T turn out to be snakey shady character everybody believed to be) and promptly taken down in a matter of seconds. In Heuco Mundo we have a woman arrancar who inexplicably turned into a child form because she was hit in the head once (Because THAT explains everything).

It certainly wasn't the plot.

Both stories were pretty typical Rescue the Damsel in Dsitress, but Soul Society had internal politics and fighting that lead to the central issue and was a key factor that allowed the heroes to get as far as they did. In Heuco Mundo the only reason, dumbass Ichigo survived after getting his ass handed to him by Ulquiorra (Ironically, Ichigo wouldn't have fought him and lost had he not lost his composure and thus proved Ulquiorra's point), was because Grimmjow is a really dumb fuck. The clever twist that Ulquiorra was not, in fact, the strongest of them all as he was hyped up to be was promptly shat on when he revealed his second form (for no actual reason).

And what was so good about the fights?

As far as I'm aware of, both the Soul Society arc and the Heuco Mundo arc sucked ass with the fights. In Heuco Mundo, they were all pretty much resolved with New Powers As The Plot Demands, with the only exception of Byakuya vs Zommari which was basically resolved by comparing cock sizes. Nnoitra lost to kendo for fuck sake. Atleast Soul Society had a semi-intelligent Ichigo vs Ikkaku fight, and Ichigo's hollow form wasn't so God damn convenient against Byakuya. Ichigo's final fight with Ulqiorra spanned over Twelve. Agonizising. Weeks. And did you fucking see Girmmjows ressurection form?

So as far as i can see, Soul Society was atleast passably okay whilst Heuco Mundo was just ridiculous.

[/rant]
Well some of your first points like Orihime needing to be rescued is what makes it a recycle of the SS arc. I do understand that the HM arc has a lot of plot kai, but in fights you got o be kidding me. I don't see the problem with having a character getting a overwhelming power up.

From the moment the arrancar arc was started I was hyped up especially after I saw the bount arc and I saw Shinji coming in and they did the exact same thing from the first episode so right then and there I was over hyped. If your looking for a intelligent fight yea it wasn't in the arrancar arc, but since when were any of Ichigo's fights intelligent. Umm Ichigo has never been that type of person.


The characters in my opinion were the best part about HM arc. They were bringing in something much different than we would normally see. Yes Ulquirra was a original emo guy, but he was my favorite charter since he brought a little coolness to the battles especially when we see his double resurrection.

Grimmjow was way beyond when I first saw him. Grimmjow was the first character to single handy beat Ichigo in there first fight so that made me love that character to a great extent just since I love to see Ichigo get slammed to the floor. Of course his resurrection shocked me, but still neat and the final battle brings up a reason for me not to be a fan of Ichihime.

Now the other respected arrancar besides Yammy were all made from charcters in the soul society which saddened me into I saw he HM restart and I saw he soul society characters who created the arrncar versions were fighting them.

Basically
Syzael was created from Mayuri (I think Syzael was proably the best shown character)
Nnoritra from Kenpachi


all except for Zommari who was weird

Then comes the top 3 whose battles weren't that great, but was most understandable since 2 out of three fought who they were created from. And I think the anime shows this best.
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Old 2010-10-16, 11:48   Link #385
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Grimmjow was way beyond when I first saw him. Grimmjow was the first character to single handy beat Ichigo in there first fight so that made me love that character to a great extent just since I love to see Ichigo get slammed to the floor.
There are so many things in your post that make me question whether or not you have a high school education, but I'm going to single this one out. I guess Byakuya, Gin, and Ai-chan don't count? Byakuya beat Ichigo so bad that Ichigo lost his shinigami powers.
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Old 2010-10-16, 11:57   Link #386
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Come on people!

Enough with the negativity.

We must be hopeful that Kubo will turn things around for Bleach when it comes back.

He must try and recreate the magic of the SS Arc.

You can do it Kubo!
I agree, let's all be a bit more optimistic. While it's true that Bleach has been dissapointing for a long time, if you read the last few arcs in one or two sittings, you'll realise that Kubo has managed to have a lot happen while at the same time barely explaining any of it (a bad thing but at the same time it has a silver lining).

In this sense Bleach hasn't been particularly terrible, it's just felt empty. I stopped caring about what was going on, the characterisation of every character was stuck in limbo, but at least because of this nothing was knocked over and damaged irreparably (if you understand my meaning).

What I really care about is the close interaction between Ichigo and his friends, which was almost completely absent. Even when Ichigo was rescuing Orihime from Ulquiorra, Kubo didn't use the opportunity to advance their relationship, or even the characters themselves.

Now that everything has cooled off it seems like a good time to put some of what's happened into context. And of course if nothing else we may as well look foward the prospect of a fresh start, where we can put this shit behind us and move on.
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Old 2010-10-16, 11:59   Link #387
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There are so many things in your post that make me question whether or not you have a high school education, but I'm going to single this one out. I guess Byakuya, Gin, and Ai-chan don't count? Byakuya beat Ichigo so bad that Ichigo lost his shinigami powers.
They count, but I am being questioned on just HM arc, and Aizen never beat Ichigo up the way Grimmjow and Byakuya did. Gin's fight with Ichigo wasn't bad, but when I first saw that chapter and saw Gin's bankai was just getting longer it didn't catch me
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Old 2010-10-16, 11:59   Link #388
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Nnoitra from Kenpachi
Then comes the top 3 whose battles weren't that great, but was most understandable since 2 out of three fought who they were created from. And I think the anime shows this best.
First off, Nnoitra is not so much like Kenpachi...he allied himself with Szayel and attacked a girl from behind, while Kenpachi would just try again and again till he could win instead.
The top three are also nothing like each other. Stark is actually a split soul running away from solitude, Barragan is the self-declared king of HM and Halibel was just another soldier with a relatively weak theme which could apply to any army.
For me, the best part of the arc was GJ VS Ichigo, he's definitely the best villain in bleach and he actually gave Ichigo something to think about, instead of entering random hollow berserker mode. The Privaron battles were also better than the ranked ones, especially the god-awful 10 to 7 fights, AA had over 30k powers and died after using...one, Zommari didn't 1HKO Byakuya by going for the head for no apparent reason, Szayel was only useful while dying a most painful death.
SS was a LOT better than HM imo, maybe because I got into bleach just when the SS arc had ended and didn't wait a single day to get on with the story, but generally it was Ichigo doing his thing for himself, not taking any crap from anyone out there besides Urahara and Yoruichi. On the other hand, in HM he sides with an army, which decided to ruin his life by letting him go on as a shinigami sub instead of letting him live a close-to-normal human life, and that's when the attention shifted from the main character to the whole effin secondary cast, and THAT killed a lot of the impact bleach had on me.
@ Gin: Leave the decide arc out of this :P
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if you read the last few arcs in one or two sittings, you'll realise that Kubo has managed to have a lot happen while at the same time barely explaining any of it
See, the problem is that a lot of it didn't need to happen, it was purely a waste of space, and I'm not just talking about foot panels or whatever, but the very essence of their contribution to the plot: Ulq's 2nd release, when the first one was more than enough, Yammy as a character in bleach, even more so as Ulquiorra's partner, a lot of Aizen's actions and quite a few more of less...insignificance, which could have still been reduced in length.
Quote:
Now that everything has cooled off it seems like a good time to put some of what's happened into context. And of course if nothing else we may as well look foward the prospect of a fresh start, where we can put this shit behind us and move on.
I shall second this notion.
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Old 2010-10-16, 12:13   Link #389
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First off, Nnoitra is not so much like Kenpachi...he allied himself with Szayel and attacked a girl from behind, while Kenpachi would just try again and again till he could win instead.
The top three are also nothing like each other. Stark is actually a split soul running away from solitude, Barragan is the self-declared king of HM and Halibel was just another soldier with a relatively weak theme which could apply to any army.
For me, the best part of the arc was GJ VS Ichigo, he's definitely the best villain in bleach and he actually gave Ichigo something to think about, instead of entering random hollow berserker mode. The Privaron battles were also better than the ranked ones, especially the god-awful 10 to 7 fights, AA had over 30k powers and died after using...one, Zommari didn't 1HKO Byakuya by going for the head for no apparent reason, Szayel was only useful while dying a most painful death.
SS was a LOT better than HM imo, maybe because I got into bleach just when the SS arc had ended and didn't wait a single day to get on with the story, but generally it was Ichigo doing his thing for himself, not taking any crap from anyone out there besides Urahara and Yoruichi. On the other hand, in HM he sides with an army, which decided to ruin his life by letting him go on as a shinigami sub instead of letting him live a close-to-normal human life, and that's when the attention shifted from the main character to the whole effin secondary cast, and THAT killed a lot of the impact bleach had on me.
@ Gin: Leave the decide arc out of this :P

See, the problem is that a lot of it didn't need to happen, it was purely a waste of space, and I'm not just talking about foot panels or whatever, but the very essence of their contribution to the plot: Ulq's 2nd release, when the first one was more than enough, Yammy as a character in bleach, even more so as Ulquiorra's partner, a lot of Aizen's actions and quite a few more of less...insignificance, which could have still been reduced in length.

I shall second this notion.
Hey I didn't say Nnoritra and Kenpachi were exactly alike I am talking about who the characters seemed like they were created from.

As for Ulquirra it is dudh that he could beat ichigo with his first release kay, but thet was a plotkai on Tite's part. Of courese that was a good plotkai in my opion. Tell ya the truth a lot of Tite's plotkai were good (Looks left and right) well you can attack that sentence alone.

Tch Aizen could shut his mouth for a minute instead of talking up a storm don't even bring Aizen in it because my thoughts on Aizen are away from this discussion
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Old 2010-10-16, 12:20   Link #390
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Originally Posted by Kafriel View Post
See, the problem is that a lot of it didn't need to happen, it was purely a waste of space, and I'm not just talking about foot panels or whatever, but the very essence of their contribution to the plot: Ulq's 2nd release, when the first one was more than enough, Yammy as a character in bleach, even more so as Ulquiorra's partner, a lot of Aizen's actions and quite a few more of less...insignificance, which could have still been reduced in length.

I shall second this notion.
Very true, but since by default we must have lowered standards and expectations when it comes to Bleach, we can overlook that and see the positive in that at least the story hasn't been so badly damaged by Kubo digging himself into a crater sized hole (which was a possibility a few chapters ago had the arc not ended as it did with kubo hitting the reset button).
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Old 2010-10-16, 12:26   Link #391
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Very true, but since by default most have lowered standards and expectations when it comes to Bleach, we can overlook that and see the positive in that at least the story hasn't badly damaged by Kubo digging himself into a crater-sized hole (which was a possibility a few chapters ago had the arc not ended as it did with kubo hitting the reset button).
Now that's what I call a true bleach fan, almost makes me feel bad for myself...
Quote:
As for Ulquirra it is dudh that he could beat ichigo with his first release kay, but thet was a plotkai on Tite's part. Of courese that was a good plotkai in my opion. Tell ya the truth a lot of Tite's plotkai were good (Looks left and right) well you can attack that sentence alone.
Why was it a good plot device? Power beyond comprehension is what people perceive as OP, imba and many other synonyms, and Ulquiorra was able to totally buttrape Ichigo in his first release. What would have changed if he had gotten angry with Ichigo not being desperate or giving up and killing him with a black cero right then and there? Ulquiorra's character development would have remained intact, the impact of his power would be the same, and Ichigo could still have had a huge hole on his torso.
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Old 2010-10-16, 12:31   Link #392
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Now that's what I call a true bleach fan, almost makes me feel bad for myself...

Why was it a good plot device? Power beyond comprehension is what people perceive as OP, imba and many other synonyms, and Ulquiorra was able to totally buttrape Ichigo in his first release. What would have changed if he had gotten angry with Ichigo not being desperate or giving up and killing him with a black cero right then and there? Ulquiorra's character development would have remained intact, the impact of his power would be the same, and Ichigo could still have had a huge hole on his torso.
It was good because since Ulquirra was going to die anyway ya mighta s well get the full power out of him

and it make Ulquirra seem much cooler so rather if he could beat Ichigo first or again it makes no difference besides Ulquirra was going to use it anyway when Ichigo gained his own power up
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Old 2010-10-16, 12:33   Link #393
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I wasn't talking about deicide, I was talking about SS when Gin and Ai-chan both effortlessly defeated Ichigo on their first meeting. (separate occasions)
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Old 2010-10-16, 12:35   Link #394
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@kaf
I wasn't talking about deicide, I was talking about SS when Gin and Ai-chan both effortlessly defeated Ichigo on their first meeting. (separate occasions)
Oh that is back in SS which we all know was good
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Old 2010-10-16, 12:45   Link #395
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It was good because since Ulquirra was going to die anyway ya mighta s well get the full power out of him
Beating the crap out of Ichigo counts as full power to me, raising the bar was just meaningless.
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I wasn't talking about deicide, I was talking about SS when Gin and Ai-chan both effortlessly defeated Ichigo on their first meeting. (separate occasions)
I had a hunch...still wanted to say Decide arc just to get on your nerves

btw @ S.fan: Ichigo got stomped on by Tesla too^^
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Old 2010-10-16, 12:51   Link #396
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Beating the crap out of Ichigo counts as full power to me, raising the bar was just meaningless.

I had a hunch...still wanted to say Decide arc just to get on your nerves

btw @ S.fan: Ichigo got stomped on by Tesla too^^
It really shouldn't matter since he was going to have to use that form anyway when fighting Super hollow Ichigo and if you think about it showing it early was actually good thing. If they showed his second resurrection when fighting hollow Ichigo then it cause problems because it would make Ulquirra look weak
Okay I get Ichigo got beat up by a lot of people, but I was just speaking what made HM so good
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Old 2010-10-16, 12:53   Link #397
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I had a hunch...still wanted to say Decide arc just to get on your nerves
Ah so the misspelling was intentional. Thank goodness.

(...so why did you misspell it this time?)

As for the main argument, I suppose it all boils down to how much depth you're looking for compared to how high the Rule of Cool is on your priority list...
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Old 2010-10-16, 12:58   Link #398
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The thing about Bleach is that in some point lost foundation... which is pretty common in a lot of mangas, but here was a train wreck.

We're so much interesting in what the hell the Hougyoku was, why Ichigo was special, why Orihime got such powers, what was Isshin's past... so much questions and Kubo wasn't capable to come with solid answers... i think that the way this arc ends and this hiatus weeks are like throw in the towel for Kubo.

I expect that this hiatus can solve things for Kubo.
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Old 2010-10-16, 12:59   Link #399
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The thing about Bleach is that in some point lost foundation... which is pretty common in a lot of mangas, but here was a train wreck.

We're so much interesting in what the hell the Hougyoku was, why Ichigo was special, why Orihime got such powers, what was Isshin's past... so much questions and Kubo wasn't capable to come with solid answers... i think that the way this arc ends and this hiatus weeks are like throw in the towel for Kubo.

I expect that this hiatus can solve things for Kubo.
I always thought a break was good
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Old 2010-10-16, 13:04   Link #400
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If Kubo still can't think of a good storyline after dragging out the last arc for years, I fail to see how a 2 week break will suddenly solve things...
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