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View Poll Results: Your impression of the movie - A Wakening of the Trailblazer
091 - 100: Amazing 78 24.30%
081 - 090: Great 66 20.56%
071 - 080: Very Good 46 14.33%
061 - 070: Good 50 15.58%
051 - 060: Average 24 7.48%
041 - 050: Below Average 16 4.98%
031 - 040: Bad 6 1.87%
021 - 030: Very Bad 4 1.25%
011 - 020: Awful 10 3.12%
001 - 010: You would rather watch Britney Spears exposing her crotch. *shudder* 21 6.54%
Voters: 321. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2011-01-04, 19:06   Link #461
Kallen4life
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The most disappointing point of the movie for me was the fights; just laser/missle spams on pointy objects most of the time. The graphics were eye catching at first, but you would have to get bored when its repeated over and over again
this is actually my biggest complain, I mean the fights are quite likely the best thing about this movie, and yet they can still dissapoint with this .. rest is uuh yeah, but I didn't expect much there anyway


Unicorn is better sry
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Old 2011-01-04, 19:14   Link #462
DragoZERO
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Originally Posted by GN0010 Nosferatu View Post
I'd love a 00P miniseries. But I don't think the prequel stories are popular enough to warrant animation.
Yes, a 00P would be great. And I think their popularity would increase should it be animated. I think it's serialized in a niche magazine, so it's hard to judge it's mainstream popularity... I think. Well, I just hope they do something in this universe or UC and not give us a new one, should their be a new TV/OVA series in the future.
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Old 2011-01-04, 19:43   Link #463
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Originally Posted by nines View Post
The fighting scenes were obviously awesome but the introduction of ELS and how they explained why they moved to people with Quantum Brain Waves was horribly explained. And it's hard to understand what Setsuna did when he somehow did a warp through space and made a giant flower appear, it's obvious what the flower stands for but still random as hell.

And how they played out the romance with Feldt I actually liked that was hoping for the ending to be a peaceful thing, well it was but he turned into part ELS didn't age and goes to an old Marina, and then somehow his 00 Quantum turns into flowers =.=.
I thought the reason ELS was attract to people with quantum brain waves was trying to learn about them. In doing so learn about other planets and live there. And Setsuna warped to ELS home in order to communicate with them and it is possible that ELS created the flower as a sign to end the war.

And 00 Quanta being covered with flower is more symbolic than anything else.
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Old 2011-01-04, 19:44   Link #464
GN0010 Nosferatu
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Originally Posted by Kallen4life View Post
this is actually my biggest complain, I mean the fights are quite likely the best thing about this movie, and yet they can still dissapoint with this .. rest is uuh yeah, but I didn't expect much there anyway


Unicorn is better sry
You must not seen the older UC battles, because a lot of them are beams and missiles flying everywhere too.

That's usually what happens when two giant warring factions collide.
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Old 2011-01-04, 19:58   Link #465
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Originally Posted by GN0010 Nosferatu View Post
You must not seen the older UC battles, because a lot of them are beams and missiles flying everywhere too.

That's usually what happens when two giant warring factions collide.
The beam spamming was done right this time. Usually beam spamming was used because it lowering the budget, but people can clearly see the quality of the fight here.

Is it me, or people just hate beam stuffs because of previous Gundam's way of using beam? It's not like they use the same way of beam firing over and over, as in some series.

Funny how people keep bringing Unicorn here, when most of the battle is just rehash of the first Gundam's scenes (I don't say it's bad, because it has its intention), and beam firing everywhere. I guess if it's UC, basically it will be good.
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Old 2011-01-04, 20:09   Link #466
RDF2050
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Missile are useless against the ELS. Close Combat isn't recommended either because of how many units the ELS have. Also, beams seems to be the best way to destroy the ELS's units.
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Old 2011-01-04, 20:13   Link #467
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I enjoyed this movie very much. You can tell that someone on the staff is a huge Arthur C. Clarke fan.

I guess I'll start this off with Saji, because really he's supposed to be our window into the 00verse, and he was the first one to show up in the movie (not counting the movie in a movie). The movie finally cements his character development. He went through S1 mostly as just a naive kid. Then shit happened to him; that is, in the process of bringing peace to all of humanity, not just the people that currently had it, his peace was shattered. Saji's reaction was to run away and find a new peace.

Turns out, that peace was even worse than his old peace. It wasn't the peace that a subset of humanity had ushered in, but left others behind; it was the smothering, all-encompassing peace that comes at the barrel of a gun. Saji tried to run, but circumstances didn't allow him to. Even seeing what was happening before him, he tried to close his eyes, tried to keep himself above the fray, thinking that if he could disassociate himself with all of the fighters, he could still live in his own little world. When he finally realized that he had to help, he finally found his reason to fight, a perhaps over-used but perfectly legitimate reason: To get his woman back. And in the epilogue he states how people can't ignore what goes on in the world, and need to always be vigilant.

In the movie, he keeps an eye on Louise and defends her from the ELS version of the innovade that was on Europa. And when they're in the QB isolation facility, he offers to go out and help with the Orbital Elevators. As such, I find that Saji served his purpose well. He acted as a window to the 00verse for us, and he helped us see what was actually happening to the normal people.

Thematically, it built off of the series: Peace cannot be kept by force (S1) It can only be achieved by understanding (S2). Humans and ELS have both reached a level that the conflict of man vs. man (or the more PC character vs. character) doesn't happen. Humanity no longer has wars between itself. However, from the POV of humanity the ELS weren't man, they were other (and vice versa). And humans and ELS were both willing to engage in man vs. other (or man vs. else ). It wasn't until Setsuna managed to communicate with the ELS that the ELS realized that the fight was a giant cultural misunderstanding and inability to mutually communicate.

About what people were mentioning about self-defense. The Federation simply launched some missiles to push a derelict ship out of position so it wouldn't crash into the Earth. The fragments that landed on the Earth created strange incidents which killed people. Then, the federation tried to stop a clearly invading fleet from annihilating humanity.

Look at that same situation from the POV of the ELS, they send a probe to a planet, they get attacked without provocation, after landing and trying to say hi and learn about what's down there (assimilated a sample of things that it encounters). From the ELS POV, Earth is full of technologically advanced barbarians that would attack a research probe and the ELS on it with no provocation. Imagine if you stumble into some village in the middle of nowhere, say "hello" in the hopes that someone understands you, and they try to kill you. They seems like a bunch of crazy people, but it turns out that in their language "hello" means something terrible and offensive. So, the entire fight between them was a giant misunderstanding, combined with what both sides thought was self-defense against an irrational enemy.

To borrow from Orson Scott Card, Humans and ELS think they are Varelse (pronounced var-ELSS-uh), "strangers from another species who are not able to communicate with us." We find out that that thought was wrong, and in fact Humans and ELS are Ramen, "strangers from another species who are capable of communication and peaceful coexistence." Card even points out the same thing "The difference between ramen and varelse is not in the creature judged, but in the creature judging. When we declare an alien species to be ramen, it does not mean that they have passed a threshold of moral maturity. It means that we have."

About the battles. Beautiful. I particularly liked how they showed the difference between Descartes's fighting style and Graham's near Mars. Descartes just rushed in, ignoring his allies, and although he did do a ton of damage, he ended up failing pretty badly. Whereas Graham's Solbrave squad understood the value of teamwork and formations. The sheer number of assists in that battle was amazing. You may notice that the Braves almost exclusively didn't bother attacking the ELS that were attacking them. They spent the entire battle setting up the ELS that were chasing them to be attacked by their squad mates while setting themselves in a position to attack the ELS chasing their squad mates. We got a taste of this back in S1 ep. 19 with Exia + Virtue vs. Trinities, but nothing on this level of skill and mutual trust.

The battle at the absolute defense line was amazing. While I'm sure people would have preferred duels, I love fleet engagements, in fact I haven't seen a good sci-fi fleet engagement since Return of the Jedi (I am open to recommendations). It showed off how this wasn't CB's fight it was humanity's fight (more in next paragraph). It allowed people who so far have only had Informed Ability a chance to show that they are skillful, and not just claim to be with no justification. I particularly liked how in a short moment, Andrei realized that he was in a dilemma, life or duty, chose duty, and finally understood what his parents did. Graham's death was a little underwhelming, but he died as he lived, epically, if not particularly dramatically.

People are, and I'm sure will continue, complaining that CB didn't do enough. I agree that it would have been nice to see some more of the Raphael, and see the Qan[t] do something, but what 00 has been trying to say for the longest time is that although CB existed to put humanity on its feet (childhood of humanity ends), and help ease the tensions associated with the emergence of true innovators, even pre-innovated humanity was supposed to stand on its own feet, with maybe a little help from the innovades (that's a bit of a necessity since the original plan for CB was to be destroyed, and even 50 years in the future, humanity is only 25% innovated, but behaving maturely).

The ending resembled S2 but on a grander scale, as would be expected of a movie. Some of you may remember my defense of the TAB in S2 ep24 as not only a logical extension of what we had seen so far, but also a great story-telling technique. Much like how in S2 most of the people fighting didn't have a good reason to fight each other, the fight here was a giant misunderstanding, as I detailed above. This of course leads to Setsuna's want to communicate with the ELS as the correct approach, not the battle. However, the ELS only connected with Setsuna, not with all of humanity. They still needed some way to communicate with the rest humanity. So they pulled an image from Setsuna's mind, the flower that has been showing up throughout the show. The flower that Setsuna saw as life struggling to live, despite hardship, tragedy, and inability understand one another.

The epilogue wasn't Deathly Hallows epilogue bad, but it did leave a lot to be desired. I'm sure a lot of people, myself included, wanted to know what happened to to the survivors. We got Klaus leading the Sumeragi on a mission of some sort, but no mention of Shirin. Marina retired, her adopted kids grew up and she met up with a hybridized Setsuna, and they say that they finally achieved their dream. But we aren't told what happens to the rest of CB, Patrick, Kati, Billy or Mina. The reason it's not as bad as the DH epilogue, is that the story never really was about them. The story in 00 is about humanity growing up, and the short scene with the Sumeragi was enough to show that. The childhood of humanity has ended. Mankind has achieved peace through understanding, they made First contact, and even though it was a violent process, it was resolved peacefully, and mankind is ready to venture out into the vastness of space without bringing the seeds of conflict with them.

Overall, this was a great movie. It had its flaws, but I enjoyed it, and it tied in very well with what the previous 50 episodes have established, and continued the established theme very well. And in regards to this not being a "Gundam" movie because "Gundam is about humanity's conflicts with itself," I hope I have convinced people with my Ramen and Varelse argument above, that this is still the same theme, just who exactly are "ourselves" is being expanded. Just like how we have already expanded our definition of "ourselves" from family, to tribe, to cities, to countries, and have been slowly expanding it to bloc, humanity in the movie has expanded their definition of "ourselves" from bloc, to species, and now finally to sentience. It also fit into the main theme of Gundam "an anti-war war story." Some shows approach this in a very depressing way, (V, Z), but this one simultaneously manged to convey: "war is bad", "We have no choice but to fight", "Fighting isn't the answer", "If only we could understand each other we wouldn't have to fight", and most importantly "we can understand each other."

TL;DR I though about this movie deeply, and I liked it. It has managed to push the bounds of what Gundam is, while still staying true to what Gundam is.
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Old 2011-01-04, 20:14   Link #468
GN0010 Nosferatu
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Another reason close combat isn't recommenced because, I think the ELS are somewhat immune to being sliced in half. I noticed in during the first fight between the ESF a GN-XIV sliced a ELS probe in half, only to have it assimilate the GN-X.

You gotta blow them to nothing in order to kill em.
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Old 2011-01-04, 20:39   Link #469
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Originally Posted by GN0010 Nosferatu View Post
Randomcuriosity lives? I thought that place shut down.
it lives indeed! Omni was going to shut it down but it is now being run mainly by Divine and a few others.

www.randomc.net
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Old 2011-01-04, 20:40   Link #470
Kuroi Hadou
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Originally Posted by GN0010 Nosferatu View Post
You gotta blow them to nothing in order to kill em.
Yeah, in this case "overkill" was the minimum amount of force needed to even damage them. And how are you supposed to fight mass-swarm tactics with something other than beam spamming them to hell and back?
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Old 2011-01-04, 20:52   Link #471
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Just watched the movie.

It was pretty much a slaugther fest on the ESF side.

Though one thing that bugs me are the aliens.

So their home gets destroyed, they go out, and then they just decide to "reform" and "assimilate" any planet they come across?

I mean the people they assimilated during the battles, are those people dead then? I'm surprised that such powerful aliens who have no qualms about killing people, reforming planets, etc. would so easily just agree to peace all because of a misunderstanding.
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Old 2011-01-04, 20:59   Link #472
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Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
I mean the people they assimilated during the battles, are those people dead then?
Yep; they're gone forever.

Quote:
I'm surprised that such powerful aliens who have no qualms about killing people, reforming planets, etc. would so easily just agree to peace all because of a misunderstanding.
... you're operating under the assumption that those aliens are human-like in their mentality. What part of "alien" is so hard to understand?
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Old 2011-01-04, 20:59   Link #473
fizzmaister
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It's not that they had no qualms, they just didn't consider anything wrong with assimilating. That's just what they do, nothing complained about it until these jerks from a terrestrial planet started shooting at them for no reason.
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Old 2011-01-04, 21:00   Link #474
SoldierOfDarkness
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Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou View Post
Yep; they're gone forever.



... you're operating under the assumption that those aliens are human-like in their mentality. What part of "alien" is so hard to understand?
Apparently human-like enough to say, "oops sorry we misunderstood you, we'll pull back and put a flower in orbit of your planet."

To say that "Oh their aliens" so whatever they do will make sense is a little weak to follow. If we were to follow that argument then they should've just ignored setsuna and just continued attacking.

Throughout their history they had no qualms about assimliating other planets and such so why should they stop at a highly technological civilization?
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Old 2011-01-04, 21:01   Link #475
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Originally Posted by fizzmaister View Post
That's just what they do, nothing complained about it until these jerks from a terrestrial planet started shooting at them for no reason.
Actually, those "jerks" are probably the only other intelligent species they'd ever encountered in their entire history.

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Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
Apparently human-like enough to say, "oops sorry we misunderstood you, sorry for slaughtering thousands of you people."
That's because of the means used to communicate with each other. And understanding was what the ELS wanted in the first place.
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Old 2011-01-04, 21:04   Link #476
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Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
Just
So their home gets destroyed, they go out, and then they just decide to "reform" and "assimilate" any planet they come across?
You do realize that assimilation is their primary way of learning? It's like touching and feeling an object to them, as natural to them as breathing air and looking to us. It's the fact that their method is violently incompatible with us that's the result of the misunderstanding that the ELS are hostile. In the first place, they only came to Earth because they found people who can use Quantum Brainwaves just like they do, and therefore wish to understand. The movie does make the point that the ELS want mutual understanding, which means that they want humans to understand them too. And Setsuna and the 00 Qan[T] gave them the means to finally understand that humans don't like what the ELS are doing.
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Old 2011-01-04, 21:06   Link #477
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That's one thing I like about the ELS: along with their other unorthodox portrayal on aliens, they are also not depicted as super-older or super-wiser aliens that are superior to humanity in every conceivable way.

From the looks of it, they're a fledgling race, like humanity. They're out there trying to learn. In that sense, they're in a similar boat as humanity.
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Old 2011-01-04, 21:08   Link #478
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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
From the looks of it, they're a fledgling race, like humanity. They're out there trying to learn. In that sense, they're in a similar boat as humanity.
That brings up an interesting question: Which of the two do you think is older biologically?
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Old 2011-01-04, 21:10   Link #479
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Originally Posted by fizzmaister View Post
I enjoyed this movie very much. You can tell that someone on the staff is a huge Arthur C. Clarke fan.

I guess I'll start this off with Saji, because really he's supposed to be our window into the 00verse, and he was the first one to show up in the movie (not counting the movie in a movie). The movie finally cements his character development. He went through S1 mostly as just a naive kid. Then shit happened to him; that is, in the process of bringing peace to all of humanity, not just the people that currently had it, his peace was shattered. Saji's reaction was to run away and find a new peace.

Turns out, that peace was even worse than his old peace. It wasn't the peace that a subset of humanity had ushered in, but left others behind; it was the smothering, all-encompassing peace that comes at the barrel of a gun. Saji tried to run, but circumstances didn't allow him to. Even seeing what was happening before him, he tried to close his eyes, tried to keep himself above the fray, thinking that if he could disassociate himself with all of the fighters, he could still live in his own little world. When he finally realized that he had to help, he finally found his reason to fight, a perhaps over-used but perfectly legitimate reason: To get his woman back. And in the epilogue he states how people can't ignore what goes on in the world, and need to always be vigilant.

In the movie, he keeps an eye on Louise and defends her from the ELS version of the innovade that was on Europa. And when they're in the QB isolation facility, he offers to go out and help with the Orbital Elevators. As such, I find that Saji served his purpose well. He acted as a window to the 00verse for us, and he helped us see what was actually happening to the normal people.

Thematically, it built off of the series: Peace cannot be kept by force (S1) It can only be achieved by understanding (S2). Humans and ELS have both reached a level that the conflict of man vs. man (or the more PC character vs. character) doesn't happen. Humanity no longer has wars between itself. However, from the POV of humanity the ELS weren't man, they were other (and vice versa). And humans and ELS were both willing to engage in man vs. other (or man vs. else ). It wasn't until Setsuna managed to communicate with the ELS that the ELS realized that the fight was a giant cultural misunderstanding and inability to mutually communicate.

About what people were mentioning about self-defense. The Federation simply launched some missiles to push a derelict ship out of position so it wouldn't crash into the Earth. The fragments that landed on the Earth created strange incidents which killed people. Then, the federation tried to stop a clearly invading fleet from annihilating humanity.

Look at that same situation from the POV of the ELS, they send a probe to a planet, they get attacked without provocation, after landing and trying to say hi and learn about what's down there (assimilated a sample of things that it encounters). From the ELS POV, Earth is full of technologically advanced barbarians that would attack a research probe and the ELS on it with no provocation. Imagine if you stumble into some village in the middle of nowhere, say "hello" in the hopes that someone understands you, and they try to kill you. They seems like a bunch of crazy people, but it turns out that in their language "hello" means something terrible and offensive. So, the entire fight between them was a giant misunderstanding, combined with what both sides thought was self-defense against an irrational enemy.

To borrow from Orson Scott Card, Humans and ELS think they are Varelse (pronounced var-ELSS-uh), "strangers from another species who are not able to communicate with us." We find out that that thought was wrong, and in fact Humans and ELS are Ramen, "strangers from another species who are capable of communication and peaceful coexistence." Card even points out the same thing "The difference between ramen and varelse is not in the creature judged, but in the creature judging. When we declare an alien species to be ramen, it does not mean that they have passed a threshold of moral maturity. It means that we have."

About the battles. Beautiful. I particularly liked how they showed the difference between Descartes's fighting style and Graham's near Mars. Descartes just rushed in, ignoring his allies, and although he did do a ton of damage, he ended up failing pretty badly. Whereas Graham's Solbrave squad understood the value of teamwork and formations. The sheer number of assists in that battle was amazing. You may notice that the Braves almost exclusively didn't bother attacking the ELS that were attacking them. They spent the entire battle setting up the ELS that were chasing them to be attacked by their squad mates while setting themselves in a position to attack the ELS chasing their squad mates. We got a taste of this back in S1 ep. 19 with Exia + Virtue vs. Trinities, but nothing on this level of skill and mutual trust.

The battle at the absolute defense line was amazing. While I'm sure people would have preferred duels, I love fleet engagements, in fact I haven't seen a good sci-fi fleet engagement since Return of the Jedi (I am open to recommendations). It showed off how this wasn't CB's fight it was humanity's fight (more in next paragraph). It allowed people who so far have only had Informed Ability a chance to show that they are skillful, and not just claim to be with no justification. I particularly liked how in a short moment, Andrei realized that he was in a dilemma, life or duty, chose duty, and finally understood what his parents did. Graham's death was a little underwhelming, but he died as he lived, epically, if not particularly dramatically.

People are, and I'm sure will continue, complaining that CB didn't do enough. I agree that it would have been nice to see some more of the Raphael, and see the Qan[t] do something, but what 00 has been trying to say for the longest time is that although CB existed to put humanity on its feet (childhood of humanity ends), and help ease the tensions associated with the emergence of true innovators, even pre-innovated humanity was supposed to stand on its own feet, with maybe a little help from the innovades (that's a bit of a necessity since the original plan for CB was to be destroyed, and even 50 years in the future, humanity is only 25% innovated, but behaving maturely).

The ending resembled S2 but on a grander scale, as would be expected of a movie. Some of you may remember my defense of the TAB in S2 ep24 as not only a logical extension of what we had seen so far, but also a great story-telling technique. Much like how in S2 most of the people fighting didn't have a good reason to fight each other, the fight here was a giant misunderstanding, as I detailed above. This of course leads to Setsuna's want to communicate with the ELS as the correct approach, not the battle. However, the ELS only connected with Setsuna, not with all of humanity. They still needed some way to communicate with the rest humanity. So they pulled an image from Setsuna's mind, the flower that has been showing up throughout the show. The flower that Setsuna saw as life struggling to live, despite hardship, tragedy, and inability understand one another.

The epilogue wasn't Deathly Hallows epilogue bad, but it did leave a lot to be desired. I'm sure a lot of people, myself included, wanted to know what happened to to the survivors. We got Klaus leading the Sumeragi on a mission of some sort, but no mention of Shirin. Marina retired, her adopted kids grew up and she met up with a hybridized Setsuna, and they say that they finally achieved their dream. But we aren't told what happens to the rest of CB, Patrick, Kati, Billy or Mina. The reason it's not as bad as the DH epilogue, is that the story never really was about them. The story in 00 is about humanity growing up, and the short scene with the Sumeragi was enough to show that. The childhood of humanity has ended. Mankind has achieved peace through understanding, they made First contact, and even though it was a violent process, it was resolved peacefully, and mankind is ready to venture out into the vastness of space without bringing the seeds of conflict with them.

Overall, this was a great movie. It had its flaws, but I enjoyed it, and it tied in very well with what the previous 50 episodes have established, and continued the established theme very well. And in regards to this not being a "Gundam" movie because "Gundam is about humanity's conflicts with itself," I hope I have convinced people with my Ramen and Varelse argument above, that this is still the same theme, just who exactly are "ourselves" is being expanded. Just like how we have already expanded our definition of "ourselves" from family, to tribe, cities, to countries, and have been slowly expanding it to bloc, humanity in the movie has expanded their definition of "ourselves" from bloc, to species, and now finally to sentience. It also fit into the main theme of Gundam "an anti-war war story." Some shows approach this in a very depressing way, (V, Z), but this one simultaneously manged to convey: "war is bad", "We have no choice but to fight", "Fighting isn't the answer", "If only we could understand each other we wouldn't have to fight", and most importantly "we can understand each other."

TL;DR I though about this movie deeply, and I liked it. It has managed to push the bounds of what Gundam is, while still staying true to what Gundam is.
Talk about a desperately needed post coming at just the right time. I wad about to petition a mod to change the thread title to, "what was the most disappointing part of Gundam 00 A Wakening Of The Trailblazer?"

This is the perfect example what I was talking about earlier of an opinion posts that I tend to take into consideration. A clear understanding of the genre being dealt with and the important works and writers therein, discussion about the whole movie and not just parts that support a particular leaning and insight into what the poster too away from it. Sadly these are rare and may i say you just upped the ante for my post later on tonight. I tip my hat to you Fizzmaister, and trust me there's more to come in touching upon what you brought up here.
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Old 2011-01-04, 21:14   Link #480
ReddyRedWolf
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Join Date: Jun 2006
As I said in the other thread Assimilation is normal to them and did not realize they were doing harm to a sentient being. Their primary means of understanding concepts is absorbing them.

They did it on their homeworld and in their new homeworld. They continued their emigration and colonization because they were already burned once staying on one system.

In fact the ELS were lucky they encountered the ESF. Aeolia Schenberg pulled a Batman Gambit for any situation. He predicted Humans would eventually meet aliens and laid down the infrastructure to communicate with them. But this does not mean Schenberg was a absolute pacifist. He was smart enough to develop the GN technologies as a means of defense and escape. The Quan[T] was powerful enough to destroy the entire ELS emigration fleet if Setsuna chose to do so. GN drives with the right adjustments and equipment can be used as FTL.

If the ELS encountered a interstellar empire and did their thing they would be viewed as a threat to all life that has to be exterminated.
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