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Old 2011-01-09, 19:35   Link #861
Dop
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Yasaburo is an interesting character, because you'd think it would be in his interest (in terms of the succession) if Alto never came back. Alto is #1 son and bound to inherit if he returned, but Yasuburo would presumably inherit if Alto remained estranged from his father...
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Old 2011-01-09, 21:03   Link #862
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Originally Posted by Irisiel View Post
You know, after having watched some other Kawamori anime, and being generally well-versed in several story-telling tropes, I can't help but to think that Yasaburo was a Red Herring Character.

Basically, when a wise older relative from Main Character's past shows up and talks about Main Character, the conventional story takes it as the gospel of truth. The Main Character is then supposed to reconcile with their past in order to move forwards; the future lays with the past.

It's what we're used to seeing, nevermind that in the real world, months, years, of separation, would nullify a lot of Wise Older Relative's words.

To bring this into context with Macross Frontier: Yasaburo plays the role of Wise Old Relative to a tee, including showing up out of the blue at school and bringing Alto to fancy restaurant just to drop the bomb that Ranzou is sick and Alto should see him.

We, the watchers, who aren't privy to many of Alto's thoughts then lead on a wild goose chase, with Yasaburo's statement as the false lead to Alto's true personality.

This is corroborated later when not only did Yasaburo's Wise Old Relative shtick NOT work out, but his B-plan was character changing into Bastard Older Brother and "kidnap" an unconscious Sheryl as bait, which actually worked in bringing Alto back to the house.

So when gauging Yasaburo's ability to read Alto, and which approach held the most veracity, we should look at how Alto reacted to them, and the results (first one, ended up with Alto in a plane on another planet. Second one, ended up with Alto sneaking into the house from the back garden. Third one could have been the charm).

Also, keep in mind that Yasaburo might not be someone to judge whether or not Alto is acting, since the statement could be turned around against Yasaburo (except, Yasaburo is still acting; the cliché role of adoptive younger son who takes the "burden" of the bio-son yet still sincerely tries to bring him back to the family! Sorry, Yasa-nii, you're a good actor, but you should take a leaf from Alto's book and go out and find the real you, except I suspect that even if you did, you would return, and while you would like for Alto to triumphantly return to the stage and bring prestige to Saotome and Kabuki [even big-time movie directors fanboys Alto] alike, you have not problems with inheriting per se. You know, if you told Alto that, he might have agreed to show up in a few plays in the future when he feels ready to face his acting, but as it is now, you tried to dump the whole burden of Saotome and acting on him. No wonder he ran away).

As far as Sheryl the Seductress Planning to Show Up Ranka goes, I honestly think that she just thought of Alto's hopes and dreams in that moment (yes, phrase very much intended that way, because the writers, in a playful way, told us that they're talking about hopes and dreams in that scene). There was no thought about Ranka, because Alto's birthday isn't about Ranka, it's about Alto, and Alto is who Sheryl thought of. No backstabbing, just a very thoughtful gift of giving Alto the opportunity to fulfil his dream.
Actually with Yasaburo he may not be acting his own role at all, in fact the whole reason why he may want Alto back is because he feels inadequate as a Kabuki actor in comparison to Alto who he views as superior. He may feel as though he was just handed the position of inheritor to Ranzo's school because Alto wasn't there to take up the mantel. Also Ranzo is not his real father, all of these are things to take into account. Maybe Yasaburo is doing what he wants to do, after all unlike Alto he had a choice to let it go, much earlier. Also Yasaburo never once said that he didn't like being a Kabuki actor, just that Alto was better. When gauging a character you need to take everything into account, and try to look at a situation from more than one angle. However, judging by the end of the episode and by the end of the series Ranzo doesn't share Yasaburo's feelings and believes that Yasaburo is a great Kabuki actor.

But just to point out on how Yasaburo may not be totally wrong. Remember Alto's first practice match in the episode when he met Klan Klan, right after Alto made a successful hit, he posed with his Valkyrie. Or more specifically he did the pose that came from the Sakura-hime play. Then again in episode 10 Alto remembers and recites his father's advice on acting, and in the very same episode Alto has not forgotten how to act.

But you are right about Sheryl and Ranka in the end it is Alto's birthday. It is his day not Ranka's. So who is anyone to expect Sheryl to not give Alto a present that he really does want, because the shy girl who has a crush on him and yet can't even be bothered to try to get to know him wants him to eat her bitter cookies and attend her concert? Keep in mind that said shy girl isn't even his girlfriend, hell Sheryl is more close to Alto than Ranka is at this point (and it continues to stay this way). I mean I were Alto I'd be upset is my friend decided to hold back from giving me a once in a lifetime awesome gift that I've always wanted, because another friend wants me to attend her first concert. I probably wouldn't talk to either of them for a while, if that ever happened.
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Old 2011-01-10, 03:14   Link #863
karice67
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Right, now that I've seen 11, I'm going to have to say that my understanding of Alto hasn't changed much at all.

Going back to this...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irisiel View Post
Alto, on the other hand, feels more like someone who just STOPPED acting in the beginning of the series.
...
This is why he becomes so annoyed when Yasaburo calls his current persona cliché acting; Alto isn't acting, this is who Alto is, or what he's found so far that he is.
I have to disagree with the idea that he "STOPPED acting in the beginning of the series", because he is acting with regards to at least a couple of points, one of them being the 'I don't care' front he put on, after his initial shock at hearing that his father had collapsed.

Perhaps I shouldn't call it 'acting', because in a sense, it's part of who he is. Looking back at what Kawamori said in that commentary about "becoming a role", I'd argue that how we see Alto behave - e.g. how he wears his uniform, how he sits, how he reacts to certain provocations etc - could be what he decided to do at some point to contrast with how he looks, because he hates being mistaken for a girl. His behaviour may be part of him, but it's also something that he consciously decided to do (because that was not how he was brought up to behave).

So I'd hazard a guess that one reason Alto can't outrightly deny Yasaburo's accusation in episode 11 is because he HAS consciously approached some things in his life as he would a role, and thus really doesn't know, as Kawamori once said, "how far his true feelings go".
Spoiler for source of quote:

----

And this would be why I don't try to read Alto just from what he says, or even take what he says at face value. If he doesn't even know how far his true feelings go, then he can't express them accurately. At least at this point in the series - not entirely sure yet if I'll keep thinking this way as we approach the end.
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Old 2011-01-10, 05:08   Link #864
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I still see a big difference at what Yasaburo thinks Alto is doing ( being a fake and acting out a stereotypical role ) to what Alto is doing ( discovering who he really is, while sometimes putting up fronts to escape from some of the constant teasing Michael does ).
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Old 2011-01-10, 09:16   Link #865
wisteria233
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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
I still see a big difference at what Yasaburo thinks Alto is doing ( being a fake and acting out a stereotypical role ) to what Alto is doing ( discovering who he really is, while sometimes putting up fronts to escape from some of the constant teasing Michael does ).
Look at it this way Alto is trying to find himself but he's going about it the wrong way. He's treating it like he does an acting role. No one is saying that Alto doesn't want to be a pilot, but what is being said is that the way he's going about is by acting the way he thinks a pilot should act. One thing to remember is that unlike the rest of the cast, and despite what you say Yasaburo has probably known Alto for far longer than any of the characters. Not only that but he's also acted with him, so its not off the mark to say that he can tell more so than most when Alto is acting, because he knows what Alto looks like when he is acting, something that we the audience have never seen for a prolonged time. In other words we have nothing to compare it to, for instance the way how Alto doesn't care about certain things, may not be true at all.

For all we know at the beginning of the series Alto may have been a sensitive person who did care about a lot of things, a stark difference from his current persona.

By the way though the way is behaving is like that of a stereotypical male who doesn't care about most things, and a pilot who joined the military (or SMS but its pretty much the same thing in the tv series) in order to protect something.

Last edited by wisteria233; 2011-01-10 at 09:37.
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Old 2011-01-10, 09:42   Link #866
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@magnus
Just going back to this...
Quote:
Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
The problem here for me is that a good many forum members seem to think that "Yasaburo was right", when for me he was completely wrong.
I went back to check the relevant 'conversation', and I'm going to have to correct something I said in response to you.

Spoiler for string of quotes:

What I said about agreeing with Yasaburo was in response to you saying that Dex was just reciting what he said in episode 11. Now that I've seen the episode, I take that back since, in my opinion, Dex WASN'T saying the same thing as Yasaburo. I agree with Dex in that Alto can't separate acting from who he is, (but) in the sense of how Swampstorm put it here. And as noted in previous posts, it's based NOT on what Yasaburo said, but rather on what Kawamori has said about Alto.

(Though Dex, I think I may have to disagree with you on the idea that Alto despises acting per se. I have my reasons, but I'm trying to figure out first whether he ever voices how he feels about acting in the series...)

======
@magnus again
As for what Yasaburo actually says and why I think you're dismissing it too quickly...

Quote:
Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
This patently false assertion and misreading by Yasaburo has somehow mutated into people questioning all of Altos motivations. If the original source already did a clear misreading, why do other people use it as their primary reference for totally other motivations? That doesn't make sense to me.
As others have noted before (e.g. wisteria here), Alto's reaction to Yasaburo's accusation is suspect. Why doesn't he deny it outright, providing a reason and all? Yasaburo has hit a nail on the head - but we have to figure out which one it is. (And I think it's actually answered next episode.)

Still doesn't stop me from questioning what Alto says are his motivations though, since we can see that he isn't sure either. The only thing I'm hundred percent sure of is that he wants to fly.
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Last edited by karice67; 2011-01-10 at 10:34.
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Old 2011-01-10, 10:19   Link #867
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BTW guys, what is up with Ranka's mobile phone?



A plushie that it can shape-shifting anything like a starting light from False songtress movie?



And so was Ozma's who his phone is like...... anyone knows about it?

Last edited by Jeffry2009; 2011-01-10 at 12:11.
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Old 2011-01-10, 10:35   Link #868
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Originally Posted by Jeffry2009 View Post
BTW guys, what is up with Ranka's mobile phone?



A plushie that it can shape-shifting anything like a starting light from False songtress movie.



And so was Ozma's who his phone is like...... anyone knows about it?
tis the future good friend, the awesome cellphones are a given.
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Old 2011-01-10, 12:32   Link #869
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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
Look at it this way Alto is trying to find himself but he's going about it the wrong way. He's treating it like he does an acting role. No one is saying that Alto doesn't want to be a pilot, but what is being said is that the way he's going about is by acting the way he thinks a pilot should act. One thing to remember is that unlike the rest of the cast, and despite what you say Yasaburo has probably known Alto for far longer than any of the characters. Not only that but he's also acted with him, so its not off the mark to say that he can tell more so than most when Alto is acting, because he knows what Alto looks like when he is acting, something that we the audience have never seen for a prolonged time. In other words we have nothing to compare it to, for instance the way how Alto doesn't care about certain things, may not be true at all.
At the same time Yasaburo is someone who'd know more than most how to push Altos buttons to make him uncomfortable and who has a very much defined agenda, which is getting Alto back to acting and to assuming the role of Ranzo.

I do not see the act of him getting under Altos skin as him having a greater knowledge of Altos true motivations, but rather as his obvious intentions upsetting Alto, who is stuck on the horns of a dilemma: He has forsaken his family for his personal freedom, yet his father has gotten sick enough to be mostly out of comission ( although the show undercuts this somewhat later with their show of Ranzo doing classes ). He has to decide if he wants to return to his family, which would mean abandoning his own plans for his life to please his father.

This alone provides enough emotional distress to account for Alto getting so upset during his conversation with Yasaburo. Tellingly, when we later cut to Alto contemplating the three presents offered to him, he is not thinking anymore about the assertions of fakeness from Yasaburo, but rather about the offer to return to his family.

Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
As others have noted before (e.g. wisteria here), Alto's reaction to Yasaburo's accusation is suspect. Why doesn't he deny it outright, providing a reason and all? Yasaburo has hit a nail on the head - but we have to figure out which one it is. (And I think it's actually answered next episode.)

Still doesn't stop me from questioning what Alto says are his motivations though, since we can see that he isn't sure either. The only thing I'm hundred percent sure of is that he wants to fly.
Well, maybe we are talking past each other here. I see Yasaburos accusations as an attempt to discredit Altos greater motivations in life, which is designed to destroy those ambitions by seeding doubt in Alto as to his personal identity.

Later on in the series, Alto himself presents himself as someone who deceived himself earlier, when he used protecting Ranka as a motivation to join SMS; he did so, by his own words ( which I think were quite sincere ), to disguise his desire to protect Frontier. We never see him later on seriously considering a return to his household as an full-time actor. He does conciliate his past with his present in episode 25, but he never wavers from his chosen course during the series.

We also never see him doubting his decision to become a pilot. Not. Once. As such, it seems laughable to me that Yasaburo tries to convince him here that he is only acting out to be rebellious, when we later can see that he never even considers anymore another course of life for himself than as a protector of his home and a pilot. That alone tells me that he is sincere in his intentions and that Yasaburo was completely and utterly full of shit during their conversation in this episode. The question remaining for me here is not if Alto is the actor, but if Yasaburo is, by either doing a misguided appeal to Alto based on his false interpretation of Altos motivations OR by maliciously trying to mindfuck Alto into going back home and abandoning his own dreams for life.
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Old 2011-01-10, 13:32   Link #870
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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
At the same time Yasaburo is someone who'd know more than most how to push Altos buttons to make him uncomfortable and who has a very much defined agenda, which is getting Alto back to acting and to assuming the role of Ranzo.

I do not see the act of him getting under Altos skin as him having a greater knowledge of Altos true motivations, but rather as his obvious intentions upsetting Alto, who is stuck on the horns of a dilemma: He has forsaken his family for his personal freedom, yet his father has gotten sick enough to be mostly out of comission ( although the show undercuts this somewhat later with their show of Ranzo doing classes ). He has to decide if he wants to return to his family, which would mean abandoning his own plans for his life to please his father.

This alone provides enough emotional distress to account for Alto getting so upset during his conversation with Yasaburo. Tellingly, when we later cut to Alto contemplating the three presents offered to him, he is not thinking anymore about the assertions of fakeness from Yasaburo, but rather about the offer to return to his family.
Well I don't know you were watching but in mine from Central Anime Yasaburo says is...
Quote:
"I have a gift for you. I convinced the Master to make a promise. He will reinstate his relationship with you if you see him on your birthday. ...Stop lying after watching that show and the movie... I definitely realized something. You can't quit acting ...Are you sure. You're acting even now...playing the role of a young man who rebelled against his father to become a pilot ...See? You're intoxicated in such a cheesy role, stop trying to act tough, you have the blood that I can never have no matter how hard I try. The Blood of an actor is like a curse"
those are the Yasaburo's words which Alto flashes back to when he before he meets up with Sheryl. In fact Alto's entire conversation to Yasaburo is one big flashback. The conversation could have very well been longer but what we see from that conversation was all Alto's flashback, in other words the entire conversation was Alto thinking back on it. You can't say its just Yasaburo trying to get under Alto's skin because as we can see from this episode he did.

Also Yasaburo never says anything about Alto returning to Kabuki he merely tells Alto that he's glad Alto didn't give up acting and to go see his father. He never talks down Alto's dream to become a pilot he merely talks down his way of going about it, which actually works more in with what Swampstorm said. When does Yasaburo ever in this episode talk down Alto's dream to be a pilot itself? Because he's more talking down the way Alto is behaving than what he wants to do.
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Old 2011-01-10, 14:08   Link #871
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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
Well I don't know you were watching but in mine from Central Anime Yasaburo says is... those are the Yasaburo's words which Alto flashes back to when he before he meets up with Sheryl. In fact Alto's entire conversation to Yasaburo is one big flashback. The conversation could have very well been longer but what we see from that conversation was all Alto's flashback, in other words the entire conversation was Alto thinking back on it. You can't say its just Yasaburo trying to get under Alto's skin because as we can see from this episode he did.

Also Yasaburo never says anything about Alto returning to Kabuki he merely tells Alto that he's glad Alto didn't give up acting and to go see his father. He never talks down Alto's dream to become a pilot he merely talks down his way of going about it, which actually works more in with what Swampstorm said. When does Yasaburo ever in this episode talk down Alto's dream to be a pilot itself? Because he's more talking down the way Alto is behaving than what he wants to do.
Oh, come on, really now. Why did Alto run away from home? To become a pilot and because he did not want to be an actor anymore. What would mean Alto returning home and making up with his father mean, at least from Yasaburos point of view, mean? Return to being a full-time actor and stop being a military pilot. I don't see how the two professions are reconcilable, especially given how fanatic Altos father is being portrayed about the whole thing.

And that also has nothing to do with my assertion that Alto was living his honest dream about who he was being, instead of just acting the rebellious youth, as Yasaburo asserts. Look at farther episodes, tell me where Alto is even once questioning his current way in life, unless it is Yasaburo stirring the pot and trying to plant doubts.
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Old 2011-01-10, 14:56   Link #872
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Oh, come on, really now. Why did Alto run away from home? To become a pilot and because he did not want to be an actor anymore. What would mean Alto returning home and making up with his father mean, at least from Yasaburos point of view, mean? Return to being a full-time actor and stop being a military pilot. I don't see how the two professions are reconcilable, especially given how fanatic Altos father is being portrayed about the whole thing.

And that also has nothing to do with my assertion that Alto was living his honest dream about who he was being, instead of just acting the rebellious youth, as Yasaburo asserts. Look at farther episodes, tell me where Alto is even once questioning his current way in life, unless it is Yasaburo stirring the pot and trying to plant doubts.
Exactly what would it mean, it could mean many things, especially because we know that Ranzo does understand Alto's desire to become a pilot. Alto returning to his home could mean that he is making amends with his father, and that they both understand that Alto doesn't want to be in Kabuki. This is especially true because Ranzo is sick and Alto is Ranzo's only child. Because, again Yasaburo never says anything about Kabuki, so saying that is what he meant when he never even hinted at that is just grasping at straws. If you've ever something similar happen in your family, then you can compare it that?

Even when Yasaburo takes Sheryl to force Alto to go back home, did Alto return to Kabuki? or did he return to being a pilot? Also to point something that you may not have taken into account with Alto refusing his role as Ranzo's heir Yasaburo is now the inheritor of the dojo. If Alto returned to Kabuki (read: not just return home, he has to return to the practice of the dojo) then Yasaburo would lose out. However, Alto is still Ranzo's child, and if you're teacher was sick and had an estranged child that you have contact with, and he doesn't want to inherit the dojo (meaning your position is safe anyway) then wouldn't you at least want your master to see their only child, before its too late.

Plus once Alto did finally return to his home, wasn't he more confident after wards? Keep in mind that Yasaburo set that up, whose to say that wasn't what he was after in the first place? Yasaburo never said that Alto didn't want to be a pilot, heck he never even implied it. All he spoke of was Alto's behavior not what Alto possible inheritance to the dojo. Also Yasaburo is right when he said that Alto never really did give up acting, while citing his role as a stunt double as an example, that in and of itself is a type of acting. And as shown from episode 10 Alto doesn't mind acting just as long as it isn't a female role.

Your putting in words and meanings that aren't even there or hinted at, by either of the characters. Doing stunts and playing an extra yes it is acting, but it is different from Kabuki. In fact if Yasaburo was any other family member of Alto's how would you look at the same scene with the same conversation, which keep in mind Alto is thinking about?
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Old 2011-01-10, 15:56   Link #873
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Exactly what would it mean, it could mean many things, especially because we know that Ranzo does understand Alto's desire to become a pilot. Alto returning to his home could mean that he is making amends with his father, and that they both understand that Alto doesn't want to be in Kabuki. This is especially true because Ranzo is sick and Alto is Ranzo's only child. Because, again Yasaburo never says anything about Kabuki, so saying that is what he meant when he never even hinted at that is just grasping at straws. If you've ever something similar happen in your family, then you can compare it that?
1.) We know Yasaburo wants Alto to return to being an actor from episode 19, it is made explicit there.
2.) Ranzo accepting that Altos passion is flying only happens in episode 24, when we get his short scene of accepting it. It is made quite clear from episode 4 that at this point he only sees the Kabuki actor in Alto and is not accepting that Alto chose his own path.
3.) Given that at this point Ranzo is unaccepting of Altos chosen path and that Yasaburo also wants Alto to return to acting, it is clear that both do not see his chosen vocation as a pilot as something which they need to accept and respect. They want to impose their vision of Altos future on him, without his opinion being taken into account. This is why Yasaburo constantly tries to manipulate Alto, by calling Altos motives into doubt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
Even when Yasaburo takes Sheryl to force Alto to go back home, did Alto return to Kabuki? or did he return to being a pilot? Also to point something that you may not have taken into account with Alto refusing his role as Ranzo's heir Yasaburo is now the inheritor of the dojo. If Alto returned to Kabuki (read: not just return home, he has to return to the practice of the dojo) then Yasaburo would lose out. However, Alto is still Ranzo's child, and if you're teacher was sick and had an estranged child that you have contact with, and he doesn't want to inherit the dojo (meaning your position is safe anyway) then wouldn't you at least want your master to see their only child, before its too late.
I am not completely discounting that Yasaburo also wants Alto to simply reconcile with his father. But his stated motivation, as said in episode 19, is to want to manipulate Alto back into acting. I am not saying that he didn't amend his motivations somewhat over the next episodes, as it is clear that he saw that his first overt attempt at manipulating Alto didn't work out, but I do not see the simply altruistic Yasaburo you are portraying.

Maybe you could call him altruistic in the sense that he doesn't want to get the inheritance and responsibility of Ranzo and that he simply sees Alto as the better candidate, but until Altos refusal to come back opens his eyes, it seems very clear to me that he isn't taking Altos choice to be a pilot seriously and just thinks that Alto is "acting a cheap role".

Which, of course, comes back to the main topic of our discussion, that Yasaburo is full of shit when he says that, because his motives are suspect and his information faulty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
Your putting in words and meanings that aren't even there or hinted at, by either of the characters. Doing stunts and playing an extra yes it is acting, but it is different from Kabuki. In fact if Yasaburo was any other family member of Alto's how would you look at the same scene with the same conversation, which keep in mind Alto is thinking about?
Both instances of him acting were under duress, i.e. first off orders to be stunt double by SMS and secondly after being emotionally manipulated into it by his friends for the underwater shot.

Which other family member of Alto would that actually be? He only has his father and I wouldn't view the conversation any different then, given that his father was just as highly biased as Yasaburo was.
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Old 2011-01-10, 17:32   Link #874
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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
1.) We know Yasaburo wants Alto to return to being an actor from episode 19, it is made explicit there.
2.) Ranzo accepting that Altos passion is flying only happens in episode 24, when we get his short scene of accepting it. It is made quite clear from episode 4 that at this point he only sees the Kabuki actor in Alto and is not accepting that Alto chose his own path.
3.) Given that at this point Ranzo is unaccepting of Altos chosen path and that Yasaburo also wants Alto to return to acting, it is clear that both do not see his chosen vocation as a pilot as something which they need to accept and respect. They want to impose their vision of Altos future on him, without his opinion being taken into account. This is why Yasaburo constantly tries to manipulate Alto, by calling Altos motives into doubt.
1. I think you're getting ahead of yourself, but keep the context of the conversation in mind. Is he talking about Alto or is he talking about Sheryl, who he just overheard Alto yell at.

2. If you were a father ( a proud man) and you're only son (and only child mind you) ran away from home, not that long after your wife died. Then you see him sometime later on, but he makes no effort to go talk to you. How would you feel? upset? angry? Take that into account and then look again at Ranzo's reaction to seeing Alto after so long.

3. How do we know that Ranzo unaccepting of Alto's chosen path? Alto hasn't spoken to him yet. In fact we've never once heard Ranzo speak on the subject, at all until episode 24. In other words you're drawing your own conclusion without a base.



Quote:
I am not completely discounting that Yasaburo also wants Alto to simply reconcile with his father. But his stated motivation, as said in episode 19, is to want to manipulate Alto back into acting. I am not saying that he didn't amend his motivations somewhat over the next episodes, as it is clear that he saw that his first overt attempt at manipulating Alto didn't work out, but I do not see the simply altruistic Yasaburo you are portraying.

Maybe you could call him altruistic in the sense that he doesn't want to get the inheritance and responsibility of Ranzo and that he simply sees Alto as the better candidate, but until Altos refusal to come back opens his eyes, it seems very clear to me that he isn't taking Altos choice to be a pilot seriously and just thinks that Alto is "acting a cheap role".

Which, of course, comes back to the main topic of our discussion, that Yasaburo is full of shit when he says that, because his motives are suspect and his information faulty.
I already said that I don't really want to bring it up until episode 19, but consider the context and who Yasaburo may be talking about, is it Alto or is it Sheryl? I mean he basically just overheard all of Sheryl's conversation with Alto, and he heard what Alto told her.

Something to also keep in mind is Alto's position as a stunt pilot at the beginning of the series, a role which Alto doesn't give up, even after he joins SMS. In fact he seemingly continues this role up until, episode 22, after which he joins the military to protect Frontier. Remember that Alto was accused of showing off by posing when he first joined SMS. Alto is never really does stop performing until the later episodes when sh*t hits the fan, and Alto can finally admit to himself that he does care about Frontier, the very same place he loathed at the beginning of the series. We can't very well say that Alto in the later episodes is the same Alto at the beginning of the series, when their behavior and motivations are different.

Its still way too early in the series to say that Alto has his motivations straight, as his words to not line up with his actions. Its not that Yasaburo says that Alto should return to acting it's that he already has, despite Alto saying differently. He was just pointing out the truth, and again if there wasn't a ring of truth to it then why was Alto thinking about it? Things don't get under your skin unless they are somewhat true, and Alto is still thinking about it hours later. Now stop and tell me have you ever mulled over something that someone has said all day, when it wasn't true? If something is not true you usually forget about in one or two hours but not the whole day, and especially not so seriously.

No matter how you try to water that down it is suspicious. And yes Alto may not truly know himself fully yet (or until the later episodes at least), but he may know himself enough to know when he his treating something like a roll. So no I wouldn't say that one should throw out the conservation as just Yasaburo being conniving because it was Alto who was shown mulling over the conversation, long after it happened not Yasaburo.

On that note I'm merely pointing out the various reasons why Yasaburo would want Alto to talk to Ranzo, which is gamble itself (albeit not a very good one).

Quote:
Both instances of him acting were under duress, i.e. first off orders to be stunt double by SMS and secondly after being emotionally manipulated into it by his friends for the underwater shot.

Which other family member of Alto would that actually be? He only has his father and I wouldn't view the conversation any different then, given that his father was just as highly biased as Yasaburo was.
He did it at the beginning of the series, and he could have refused those orders or let someone else take it (which wouldn't be very hard, considering Sheryl's popularity). Not only that but the series starts off with Alto doing stunts for Sheryl's concert, and then again in episode 19. With the "Bird Human" movie Alto wasn't really at all. The director just made a deal to give Ranka more scenes if and only if Alto played a part in the movie. But then Alto got upset when he believed that he'd have to play a female and so outright refused even when his friends begged him to. Now if Alto was truly abhorred to acting then he would have stuck to his guns. But instead he just keeps re-iterating the fact that he doesn't want to play the role of a female. He doesn't volunteer for the role of Shin for that one scene until much later in the episode. If he truly hated acting then he would have stuck to his guns and said no. In other words non of them were times that Alto acted under duress.

Exactly what it says if any other family member who used the same words, would you ignore their words as well?
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Old 2011-01-10, 19:39   Link #875
karice67
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@magnus
Regarding the material you've brought up from later episodes. Before my last post, I did go off to look at some of those conversations, e.g. the one with Klan in 23, and yes, I still don't take everything Alto says just at face value, because I think there are some things I have to interpret there to get to what I think his motivations are at that point. But I'm not going to talk about it til we get there.

Unlike you, I see Yasaburo as someone who really believes the idea that's bothering Alto here, i.e. 'that acting really is something that's in one's blood, so it's something that Alto can't get rid of and that Yasaburo can't obtain.' As I said before, Alto resolves this because of something that happens next episode, but it will bother Yasaburo for the rest of the series.

====
@wisteria
Personally, I think Yasaburo got under Alto's skin for reasons other than what you stated. I don't know if this will change how you interpret the scene, but Yasaburo was actually talking about Alto inheriting the Ranzou name, i.e. succeeding Ranzou as the head of the family line, not just about reconciliation.
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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
Quote:
"I have a gift for you. I convinced the Master to make a promise. He will reinstate his relationship with you if you see him on your birthday. ...Stop lying after watching that show and the movie... I definitely realized something. You can't quit acting ...Are you sure. You're acting even now...playing the role of a young man who rebelled against his father to become a pilot ...See? You're intoxicated in such a cheesy role, stop trying to act tough, you have the blood that I can never have no matter how hard I try. The Blood of an actor is like a curse"
"He will reinstate his relationship with you"
=> lit. "reverse your disinheritance" (or 'reinstate your inheritance')

That's why Ranzou asked Yasaburo about the 'succession of the name' at the end of the episode.
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Old 2011-01-10, 19:50   Link #876
Berlin
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Man this thread is such a great Idea I wish I was here when you guys started this! I hope to find more threads like this!
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Old 2011-01-11, 00:36   Link #877
wisteria233
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Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
@wisteria
Personally, I think Yasaburo got under Alto's skin for reasons other than what you stated. I don't know if this will change how you interpret the scene, but Yasaburo was actually talking about Alto inheriting the Ranzou name, i.e. succeeding Ranzou as the head of the family line, not just about reconciliation.

"He will reinstate his relationship with you"
=> lit. "reverse your disinheritance" (or 'reinstate your inheritance')

That's why Ranzou asked Yasaburo about the 'succession of the name' at the end of the episode.
Not really, I pointed that out to Magnuskn myself. I was just pointing out the various reasons that Yasaburo would want Alto to meet up with his father.

@Berlin no reason why you can't jump in now.
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Old 2011-01-11, 01:31   Link #878
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
What I said about agreeing with Yasaburo was in response to you saying that Dex was just reciting what he said in episode 11. Now that I've seen the episode, I take that back since, in my opinion, Dex WASN'T saying the same thing as Yasaburo. I agree with Dex in that Alto can't separate acting from who he is, (but) in the sense of how Swampstorm put it here. And as noted in previous posts, it's based NOT on what Yasaburo said, but rather on what Kawamori has said about Alto.

(Though Dex, I think I may have to disagree with you on the idea that Alto despises acting per se. I have my reasons, but I'm trying to figure out first whether he ever voices how he feels about acting in the series...)
I appreciate you making things clear, thank you I completely agree with how Swampy so eloquently put it. Simply put, Alto's real obstacle throughout the series was himself.

About your disagreement, I did say "at that point" in the series Going by how he reacted to acting in the movie in episode 10, it was apparent that he wasn't exactly fond of the idea. Maybe despise is too strong a word?
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Old 2011-01-11, 02:59   Link #879
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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
1. I think you're getting ahead of yourself, but keep the context of the conversation in mind. Is he talking about Alto or is he talking about Sheryl, who he just overheard Alto yell at.
It's made clear early on in that conversation that bringing her to the Saotome estate was a ploy by Yasaburo to get Alto to come home and get him back to acting. That Yasaburos monologue also spoke to Sheryl was a side-product of that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
2. If you were a father ( a proud man) and you're only son (and only child mind you) ran away from home, not that long after your wife died. Then you see him sometime later on, but he makes no effort to go talk to you. How would you feel? upset? angry? Take that into account and then look again at Ranzo's reaction to seeing Alto after so long.
So, you do say that you don't know him? How is that not the archetypal conflict between a father who only sees the future he chose for his son and the rebellious youth?

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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
3. How do we know that Ranzo unaccepting of Alto's chosen path? Alto hasn't spoken to him yet. In fact we've never once heard Ranzo speak on the subject, at all until episode 24. In other words you're drawing your own conclusion without a base.
COME ON. Really, now. Do I really need to go and waste two hours of my time to dig out the information about why Alto ran away from home? Because I got better things to do with my day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
He did it at the beginning of the series, and he could have refused those orders or let someone else take it (which wouldn't be very hard, considering Sheryl's popularity). Not only that but the series starts off with Alto doing stunts for Sheryl's concert, and then again in episode 19. With the "Bird Human" movie Alto wasn't really at all. The director just made a deal to give Ranka more scenes if and only if Alto played a part in the movie. But then Alto got upset when he believed that he'd have to play a female and so outright refused even when his friends begged him to. Now if Alto was truly abhorred to acting then he would have stuck to his guns. But instead he just keeps re-iterating the fact that he doesn't want to play the role of a female. He doesn't volunteer for the role of Shin for that one scene until much later in the episode. If he truly hated acting then he would have stuck to his guns and said no. In other words non of them were times that Alto acted under duress.

Exactly what it says if any other family member who used the same words, would you ignore their words as well?
I really don't know which other family member than his father you are alluding to. He has none we know of.

And doing stunt-work is not acting per se. It was a flying gig where he could show off his talents as a EX-Gear pilot, not his acting.

And, yes, being brow-beaten by your friends into accepting an acting gig counts as "under duress" by me. Refusing an order by a military organization also would not be realistically feasible. If Ozma gives that order, Alto has to comply.

Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
@magnus
Regarding the material you've brought up from later episodes. Before my last post, I did go off to look at some of those conversations, e.g. the one with Klan in 23, and yes, I still don't take everything Alto says just at face value, because I think there are some things I have to interpret there to get to what I think his motivations are at that point. But I'm not going to talk about it til we get there.

Unlike you, I see Yasaburo as someone who really believes the idea that's bothering Alto here, i.e. 'that acting really is something that's in one's blood, so it's something that Alto can't get rid of and that Yasaburo can't obtain.' As I said before, Alto resolves this because of something that happens next episode, but it will bother Yasaburo for the rest of the series.
Well, I am quite sure that Yasaburos motivations are to get Alto back to his family. I am not sure, however, if his methods are just his own misguided reasoning or if he deliberately tries to mindfuck Alto, because he knows that telling Alto that he is "only acting" will make him doubt himself.

As for episode 23, good enough. I am pretty sure that he is very genuine at that point, but let's wait until we get there to go into the details.
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Old 2011-01-11, 09:09   Link #880
wisteria233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
It's made clear early on in that conversation that bringing her to the Saotome estate was a ploy by Yasaburo to get Alto to come home and get him back to acting. That Yasaburos monologue also spoke to Sheryl was a side-product of that.
FYI I believe that Yasaburo was speaking about the both of them


Quote:
So, you do say that you don't know him? How is that not the archetypal conflict between a father who only sees the future he chose for his son and the rebellious youth?
I'm not saying that I don't understand what's going on, I'm saying that your oversimplifying something that isn't as simple as you make it out to be.

Quote:
COME ON. Really, now. Do I really need to go and waste two hours of my time to dig out the information about why Alto ran away from home? Because I got better things to do with my day.
He left home because he wanted to become a pilot, though his father was against it, then swore to never return home again. Its probably been years since Alto and Ranzo sat down and had a talk. But like I said Ranzo seems to accept Alto's decision in episode so whose to say Alto didn't talk to father from episodes 19-24?

Quote:
I really don't know which other family member than his father you are alluding to. He has none we know of.

And doing stunt-work is not acting per se. It was a flying gig where he could show off his talents as a EX-Gear pilot, not his acting.

And, yes, being brow-beaten by your friends into accepting an acting gig counts as "under duress" by me. Refusing an order by a military organization also would not be realistically feasible. If Ozma gives that order, Alto has to comply.
That's why I'm saying for you to make one up. Use your imagination.

It is performing, and yes stunt work is a type of acting, and yes you do have to have knowledge over whatever you are doing a stunt of, but that is also true for acting. Because if you want to become a role you have to know something about it first.

Except they didn't brow-beat him they said what they said and after said no they left it alone. I don't really consider someone saying "come on Alto please just do it you know she'll get extra scenes if you do" to be brow-beating. Especially when all Alto said was that he would not play the role of a female. He never denied the acting gig, just playing of a female. Plus, it was only until later on that Alto jumped at the chance to be Shin. It was Alto's decision at the end of the day. A decision which he made. While I don't really take Alto's word for it at this point, he certainly didn't act like it was anything big, the only time was he was upset was when he thought he would have to play the role of a female. And technically speaking SMS is a mercenary organization, not a military one, but fair enough. Point is Alto doesn't hate acting.

But like Swampstorm was saying Alto's biggest adversary is himself, the only thing he is sure about himself at this point in time is the fact that he wants to be a pilot, and that he wants to be able to fly through a real sky. However, the way he is going about it may not be the sincerest route for him, which may be because he doesn't know himself yet, but he may know himself enough to know whether or not what he's doing feels right, though he may deny the reasons for him doing it. But as both myself and Karice67 pointed out it is suspicious that Alto is the one thinking Yasaburo's words, rather than the scene playing out at the beginning of the episode, which took place during the day. We see the flashback at night, meaning that Alto was giving it some serious thought, that is how we are introduced to the conversation.
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