AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Macross

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2011-03-20, 12:21   Link #1001
raile
<3
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Lala rainbow land~
The stairs and rooftop scene reminds me of School Days. I also still remember that parody picture of MacrossF x School Days.
__________________
raile is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-21, 09:56   Link #1002
Father Hentai
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Munich, Germany
Even though I risk to get bashed I like the step that Ranka took courage "to sing for someone special" and finally see what she wants and not what other desire or see in her.

That's what I liked about the episode that.

A point I question is what the army has been doing all the time or even at this point why science is not that faro to create better weapons. Only planning a coup de grace?
__________________
Born the same day as Satoshi Urushihara... Ill fated?
Father Hentai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-21, 10:21   Link #1003
magnuskn
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Age: 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtabby View Post
I wonder what could have been done to make Ranka more sympathetic at this point in the storyline. One of the problems I have is that I would have liked to have seen better from Ranka in this show (though I don't condemn her to the degree that many fans do), but at the same time I question whether some of the elements I liked in the show would have survived if major changes were made. (One of the reasons I'm not always keen to jump in with other fans saying something about a show should have been done differently -it's not always easy for a writer to gain something without losing something.)
Well, that really would have necessitated a wholly new direction for Rankas character, which probably would have resulted in her not abandoning her responsibilities to focus it all on Alto, which in turn would have meant that the Vajra probably wouldn't have rampaged all over Frontier or at least in a lesser manner. Then Leons coup would maybe have failed outright, Ranka wouldn't have left Frontier... it would certainly have changed the later episodes to being less tragic. But I guess that would be better addressed in some fanfiction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtabby View Post
On another note, Klan seems to really be taking a liking to Sheryl in this episode, kind of interesting considering how little they'd interacted before Michael roped her into helping his investigation. I wonder if they might become close friends post Episode 25.
It seems highly likely. They hit it off pretty well on instinct when they first met in episode five.

<sigh> I WANT SO MUCH an OVA which shows the series aftermath, to see so many little questions answered, to see in which directions the lifes of the protagonists go after they don't have to be in war anymore.
__________________
magnuskn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-24, 19:17   Link #1004
Darthtabby
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
It seems highly likely. They hit it off pretty well on instinct when they first met in episode five.
Ah, right, that scene. :lol: I really ought to have that episode in mind considering I rewatched it just recently.

Though that scene makes me wonder what dreams Klan is chasing after. I'm kind of hoping she has something beyond just her interest in Michael, but given her whole "there was no question I'd be a soldier" line during her conversation with Alto in Episode 23...

In some respects it's too bad Klan and Sheryl didn't have more interaction between episodes five and the later parts of the series. It might have been interesting to see how things went, they seem very different in some respects but as you noted they did seem to hit it off pretty well in Episode 5.

I might actually have thought Klan would have been worried about Sheryl being around Michael so much at school, but I guess she's too mature for that kind of pettiness.
Darthtabby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-24, 19:55   Link #1005
magnuskn
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Age: 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtabby View Post
Ah, right, that scene. :lol: I really ought to have that episode in mind considering I rewatched it just recently.

Though that scene makes me wonder what dreams Klan is chasing after. I'm kind of hoping she has something beyond just her interest in Michael, but given her whole "there was no question I'd be a soldier" line during her conversation with Alto in Episode 23...

In some respects it's too bad Klan and Sheryl didn't have more interaction between episodes five and the later parts of the series. It might have been interesting to see how things went, they seem very different in some respects but as you noted they did seem to hit it off pretty well in Episode 5.
Klan certainly took an interest in Sheryl during and after episode 18. Before that, yeah, it's a damn shame they didn't have more interaction. But I find that in general Klan and Michael should have had more screentime.

Still dreaming about that "slice of life" series set between episodes seven and ten.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtabby View Post
I might actually have thought Klan would have been worried about Sheryl being around Michael so much at school, but I guess she's too mature for that kind of pettiness.
Oh, she was worried in episode 18.
__________________
magnuskn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-25, 19:12   Link #1006
Darthtabby
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
Oh, she was worried in episode 18.
Yes, but only after Michael brought her up. Klan was never shown to have a problem with the amount of time Michael would have been spending around Sheryl earlier in the series which is why I said that I said I guessed Klan was too mature for that kind of pettiness. Basically it just seemed to me that Klan was mature enough not to view every girl who spends time with Michael as a threat the way some clingy characters do.

Then again, maybe we just weren't shown that part. :lol:
Darthtabby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-25, 21:25   Link #1007
DragoZERO
Spoilaphobic
*IT Support
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: USA
Age: 28
Episode 19 - Diamond Crevasse

Spoiler for *ahem*:


Poor Klan. He really, really, really did not have to die. Why not Luca? No one cares about him.

Notables...
How did Sheryl suddenly get spotlights in the shelter?
That sniper sure was conveniently killed.
Were you looking at Sheryl's earring when she had it in from of Nanase?
Why does the president use kun when addressing Ranka? It's pretty weird if you ask me.

The end of the episode was executed nicely though. The music stopped as he was dying and then started up again, and then the fade to rolling credits. It's stuff that like that let's me forgive the ex machina stuff.

"Antares-1" sure has a great remote start. I wish I had that kind of range.
DragoZERO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-26, 05:38   Link #1008
magnuskn
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Age: 39
Well, after the recap, this episode begins with a short "d'aaaaaaw!" moment, before everything goes to hell. Yeah, that didn't exactly calm my rage at Ranka back then.

- And even Klan womans up to ask Michael the important question, unwittingly sticking a big fat death flag into his back.

- Now, for the initial Vajra home invastion, nobody can blame Ranka. She just had her heart broken ( I won't say the scene was more innocent than she thought, because the way the conversation between Sheryl and Alto was going, it very probably would have turned to their relationship next. ) and she is much more of a child than Sheryl or Alto. Having your first crush not reciprocate is a soul-destroying moment.

- How traumatized will that poor school girl be for the rest of her life? If she survived, that is...

- And "ewww" to the way that footsoldier was practically smeared over the floor. The animators are not being squeamish for this episode.

- Who also thinks Leons personal retinue are his personal "gay boy" club, too? They are way too bishonen to be just soldiers.

- The way Cathy and Ozma were handling the situation in Leon office, they as well could have just stopped him right there. But, okay, too much danger of one aide getting off a good shot with those MP's.

- And we get another very good insight into the difference between Alto and Ranka. Alto thinks about the safety of the city and its inhabitants first. That is his first priority. And Ranka now comprehends this. She is not Altos first priority. Probably never will be. But her love for him is the first priority for her.

- And, well, here's the rub: Alto is right. His first thought is to be selfless. Ranka is wrong. Her first thought is about her love for Alto. Not about how he feels about her. That is very much self-centered, to the point of narcissistic behaviour. I think at this exact point is where Ranka lost the esteem of many, many people. Even when directly confronted with admirable behaviour from the man she purports to love, she cannot bring herself to stiffen up her lip and do the right thing.

- And Sheryl shows her class once more. She does the one thing which she can do to bring Ranka out of her mental breakdown ( short of lying that she rejects Alto forever ^^ ), but immediately then shows that she didn't do it for any sort of personal resentment. She tries to tell Ranka that she has to put those personal feelings aside.

- Now, one aspect here excuses a lot of Rankas behaviour: After the "Sheryl slap!" she does try her best, but nobody knows that her emotional distress will further enrage the Vajra. As such, what happens afterwards can not be directly blamed on her and, as we see in one episode, after she gets a grip on herself, she can handle things much better. As it is, she doesn't have the time to process what just happened, so she is in internal turmoil. It may have been her fault that she got where she is, due to her not even trying to understand Altos own feelings and making assumptions based only on her own feelings for him, but nobody can blame her for feeling emotional pain at this very moment.

- But the main problem remains: Ranka continues to use a very short-sighted viewpoint which is ultimately centered on herself. This may work for any number of people who are not supposed to be the heroic protagonist of a mecha series, but compared to the other two main characters, it makes her seem so much less than she would probably be in another context.

- And again Sheryl with the awesome. Even though Alto wants to come to her, she sees how it is more important to stop the Vajra. They are making quite the battle couple and, once again, it is a shame that Sheryl didn't become a full pilot.

- "I'll definitely come back for you!". I wonder if he ever did, but I choose to believe he didn't break his promise. Although if he had, it would still be understandable, given Michaels death.

And does anybody else notice which music begins to play as he says it? Prologue F, which was always used in key SherylxAlto scenes.

- I'd harp again on Ranka not showing much if any concern over Nanase, but it's like beating a dead horse. She is more inside her own head now than in the exterior world, it seems, and it is just with Michaels death that she seems to snap out of it.

- Wow, the writers were really going for the "Hey, Klan and Michael make such a cute couple, don't they? Hehehehehe..." factor.

- The end of President Glass seemed excessively cruel, I must say. At least it was fast. Then again, this episode didn't pull punches anywhere, so why expect it here?

- Poor Cathy.

- Oh, Klan. You unwittingly just twisted around that death flag in Michael some more. But at the very least your confession came from your heart and Michael had to acknowledge it.

- And another entry in the "Michael and Klan want Alto to decide what he is going to do with his love" story. WHICH WAS ABANDONED COMPLETELY IN THE END FOR THE STUPID INCONCLUSIVE ENDING, RARHGARHARGH! I hate crappy writing like this. Not THIS scene, but the ending of the series.

- Wow, being a normal person in those shelters. It'd be terrifying. With no power but to wait how things you cannot see turn out outside.

- Oh, OUCH. Among the epic fail that Ranka had this episode, Sheryl deciding that she will sing even among despair just shows again on what a different level Sheryl is as a person. Nobody can tell me that the writers were doing all those gut punches to Rankas character unwittingly.

- NOOOOOOOOOO, MICHAAAAAAEEEEEEEELLLLLLL!

- DAMN YOU KAWAMORI!

---

Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoZERO View Post
Poor Klan. He really, really, really did not have to die. Why not Luca? No one cares about him.
I'd say because people cared about him. Many people would have cheered if the little useless snot was exterminated.

I kinda wonder if Kawamori and Yoshino have a "must kill X number of beloved protagonists, so that the rest can get a kind-of happy ending" quota. Michael seemed to fill the one for this series.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoZERO View Post
How did Sheryl suddenly get spotlights in the shelter?
Unless my eyes deceive me, these were only the strategically positioned shelter lights.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoZERO View Post
That sniper sure was conveniently killed.
Didn't save President Glass in the end. However, it led to a necessary distraction for Cathy and Ozma.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoZERO View Post
Were you looking at Sheryl's earring when she had it in from of Nanase?
Uh, yes? Big boobs do nothing for me, much less if they are attached to a person in coma.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoZERO View Post
Why does the president use kun when addressing Ranka? It's pretty weird if you ask me.
Because she is a young person? Well, I know it is more widely used with teenage boys, but it made more sense than "-chan" to me. "-san" would probably have been appropiate, too, but I am no expert on Japanese honorifics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoZERO View Post
The end of the episode was executed nicely though. The music stopped as he was dying and then started up again, and then the fade to rolling credits. It's stuff that like that let's me forgive the ex machina stuff.
It was a masterfully crafted episode in almost all aspects, that is for sure. If you are referring with the "ex machina stuff" to all the coincidences which lead to things, well, in the chaos of war weird stuff happens.
__________________
magnuskn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-26, 08:31   Link #1009
Yot-chan
Minmay Guard
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoZERO View Post
Spoiler for *ahem*:


Poor Klan. He really, really, really did not have to die. Why not Luca? No one cares about him.
Because killing a character who's well-liked has more dramatic impact than killing a character nobody cares about, maybe?
Yot-chan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-26, 21:35   Link #1010
DragoZERO
Spoilaphobic
*IT Support
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: USA
Age: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
- The way Cathy and Ozma were handling the situation in Leon office, they as well could have just stopped him right there. But, okay, too much danger of one aide getting off a good shot with those MP's.
Oh, I forgot to mention that scene. Ozma had that burst of super speed and disappeared. I laughed at that.

Quote:
Because she is a young person? Well, I know it is more widely used with teenage boys, but it made more sense than "-chan" to me. "-san" would probably have been appropiate, too, but I am no expert on Japanese honorifics.
I am pretty sure "-chan" is more commonly used for that situation. I don't like it much anyway. But I think "-san" would have been better, show a little more respect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
Because killing a character who's well-liked has more dramatic impact than killing a character nobody cares about, maybe?
Yeah, I know that's why. They killed him and hit us twice since we feel bad for both him and Klan. Still though, I hate when they just kill a character like that for the emotional impact. It is good that he was useful and saved Klan, but he could have put his back to the tube and defended from there.
DragoZERO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-26, 22:13   Link #1011
karice67
さっく♥ゆうきゃん♥ほそやん
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: breezing through Tokyo...
Well...I'm long over my rage for this episode, though it was incredibly painful two years ago...

*sighs* and it looks like I'll have to get to the last three commentaries (18, 20, 25) all at once during my spring break...though I suppose it could be a good thing given 'how' they talk about this particular episode...

=======

just quickly tho...
Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoZERO View Post
I am pretty sure "-chan" is more commonly used for that situation. I don't like it much anyway. But I think "-san" would have been better, show a little more respect.
I think "kun" is the most appropriate for the situation actually. "-chan" or no honourific would be too familiar.

From wiki:
Spoiler for length:
__________________



You must free yourself from that illusion,
from the illusion that a story must have a beginning and an end.



"No, you are not entitled to your opinion... You are only entitled to what you can argue for.
- Patrick Stokes


karice67 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-27, 04:55   Link #1012
Yot-chan
Minmay Guard
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoZERO View Post
Yeah, I know that's why. They killed him and hit us twice since we feel bad for both him and Klan. Still though, I hate when they just kill a character like that for the emotional impact. It is good that he was useful and saved Klan, but he could have put his back to the tube and defended from there.
But that's kind of the point, isn't it? This is a war. People get killed in wars.

For me, the scene is one of the best in the series...it completely blew me away the first time I saw it. And I like being blown away.
Yot-chan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-27, 10:03   Link #1013
DragoZERO
Spoilaphobic
*IT Support
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: USA
Age: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
*sighs* and it looks like I'll have to get to the last three commentaries (18, 20, 25) all at once during my spring break...though I suppose it could be a good thing given 'how' they talk about this particular episode...
Take your time. We'll be here for a while.

Quote:
just quickly tho...I think "kun" is the most appropriate for the situation actually. "-chan" or no honourific would be too familiar.

From wiki:
Spoiler for length:
I guess it just sounds weird since it's not a common thing in anime. *shrug*
DragoZERO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-27, 14:00   Link #1014
magnuskn
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Age: 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
But that's kind of the point, isn't it? This is a war. People get killed in wars.

For me, the scene is one of the best in the series...it completely blew me away the first time I saw it. And I like being blown away.
It certainly was gut-wrenchingly well executed. However, I am just more of a fan of good characters surviving. And they side-stepped the whole "Micron Klan is a permanent loli" romance problem a bit too neatly for my taste. It looked like the cheap way out of that conundrum.
__________________
magnuskn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-28, 06:43   Link #1015
Father Hentai
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Munich, Germany
I think there were two options for the producers:

Candidate one: Ozma Lee
Why kill him: He is Skull leader > equal to Roy Fokker
Why not kill him: Would have killed the side story with the coup de grace

Candidate two: Michel
Why kill him: He's the womanizer and a living reminder what boys should not do
Why he should not have killed: he's cool
__________________
Born the same day as Satoshi Urushihara... Ill fated?
Father Hentai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-28, 09:02   Link #1016
Dop
We can't stop here...
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Ah yes, THAT episode. Going to hell in a handbasket.

Stepping up to the plate: Sheryl Nome. She's hit rock bottom, and has nowhere to go but up. She sings from the depths of despair. Handy how that bunker emergency lighting makes the perfect spotlights, really.

But yes, that ending. The music stops for the devastating scene, then starts up again as a single tear rolls down Sheryl's face, becoming a point of light in space, fade to black, roll credits...
It's just so well done.

That and the music make for a real tearjerker. Literally.
Dop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-04-01, 00:01   Link #1017
Darthtabby
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
It's interesting to note that this episode actually does have some weak moments in it. Ranka's thinking "I want to die" in response to seeing Sheryl and Alto together seemed a bit overblown, and Klan's form and state of dress made her scene with Michael in the corridor a bit hard to take seriously. However the combination of Sheryl's rebirth as a symbol of hope and Michael's death leaves a much stronger impact and leaves the earlier problems feeling pretty inconsequential in comparison. This is probably the episode in the series that stands out the most for its emotional impact.
Darthtabby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-04-01, 03:56   Link #1018
magnuskn
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Age: 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtabby View Post
It's interesting to note that this episode actually does have some weak moments in it. Ranka's thinking "I want to die" in response to seeing Sheryl and Alto together seemed a bit overblown,
Well, having your heart crushed is not a good new first experience for a teenage girl.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtabby View Post
and Klan's form and state of dress made her scene with Michael in the corridor a bit hard to take seriously.
Yeah, the gratuitous loli nudity wasn't the best decision, IMO.
__________________
magnuskn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-04-01, 15:43   Link #1019
SS13
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by magnuskn
- Now, for the initial Vajra home invastion, nobody can blame Ranka. She just had her heart broken ( I won't say the scene was more innocent than she thought, because the way the conversation between Sheryl and Alto was going, it very probably would have turned to their relationship next. ) and she is much more of a child than Sheryl or Alto. Having your first crush not reciprocate is a soul-destroying moment.

- How traumatized will that poor school girl be for the rest of her life? If she survived, that is...
Well, she doesn't seem to realise it was her egoism that killed Michael. Her music just "failed". And in the end sahe DOES get rid of Vajra. The real problem is however that Ranka doesn't feel defeating Vajra is RIGHT. She cannot realise that whatever they are, they are here to kill innocents and thus must be expelled/defeated at any costs this again shows her immaturity and concentration on herself (see below)

Quote:
Originally Posted by magnuskn
- And we get another very good insight into the difference between Alto and Ranka. Alto thinks about the safety of the city and its inhabitants first. That is his first priority. And Ranka now comprehends this. She is not Altos first priority. Probably never will be. But her love for him is the first priority for her.

- And, well, here's the rub: Alto is right. His first thought is to be selfless. Ranka is wrong. Her first thought is about her love for Alto. Not about how he feels about her. That is very much self-centered, to the point of narcissistic behaviour. I think at this exact point is where Ranka lost the esteem of many, many people. Even when directly confronted with admirable behaviour from the man she purports to love, she cannot bring herself to stiffen up her lip and do the right thing.


- And Sheryl shows her class once more. She does the one thing which she can do to bring Ranka out of her mental breakdown ( short of lying that she rejects Alto forever ^^ ), but immediately then shows that she didn't do it for any sort of personal resentment. She tries to tell Ranka that she has to put those personal feelings aside.



- But the main problem remains: Ranka continues to use a very short-sighted viewpoint which is ultimately centered on herself. This may work for any number of people who are not supposed to be the heroic protagonist of a mecha series, but compared to the other two main characters, it makes her seem so much less than she would probably be in another context.
Well it all can be summarized pretty quickly: Sheryl is, all her spoilings and selfishness nonwithstanding, a grown woman. She puts her personal problems aside and concentrates on the bigger things first - when the situation requires it. Alto is still too impulsive, but on the best way to behave like an adult. Ranka, meanwhile, is still a child, possibly because Ozma sheltered her too much. She reacts just like a child whose best toy is taken away - throws a tantrum, which given her abilities, is both suicidal and homicidal. The difference between the "Mentor" and "Padawan" is shown very clear, no matter who is nominally on top. This again shows what a fool Grace was for discarding Sheryl - but then again, Grace probably still believes Sheryl is entirely fabricated by her.


...


Quote:
- Wow, being a normal person in those shelters. It'd be terrifying. With no power but to wait how things you cannot see turn out outside.
Now THIS what we do love in Macross. It never abstracts the viewer from how terrifying the whole war is. It also shows how little information ordinary people get from the government (We shouldn't get into discussion about current situation in Japan, but...) Then again, shelters seem to be hit relatively little, so people seating there are relatively safe.

Another fine fact is again how fast people change their minds. They adored Ranka just a few days ago, now they are speaking only derogatively, even she still does what she can. AND people of course cling to "good old Sheryl" - sometimes comeback is not so hard after all.

Last edited by CrowKenobi; 2011-04-01 at 17:46. Reason: Let's leave movie spoilers out of the TV rewatch thread...
SS13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-04-01, 15:47   Link #1020
BetoJR
D-d-don't look!!!
*Artist
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Fortaleza-CE, Brazil
Age: 37
Why would Luca's death leave Nanase heartbroken?

And, please, no spoilers from the movies, ok? This is the series re-watch thread, after all.
__________________
It's always a great time to immerse yourself in Deculture love!
All hail the Empress!!!

BetoJR is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
macross frontier, re-watch

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 16:46.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.