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Old 2011-04-06, 05:39   Link #1041
magnuskn
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C'mon, Macross is just as much space fantasy as Star Wars. Song power stops wars?
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Old 2011-04-06, 06:40   Link #1042
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Star Wars is science fiction... And Star Wars also had Midi Chlorians as the source of the Force.
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Old 2011-04-06, 06:45   Link #1043
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Star Wars is science fiction... And Star Wars also had Midi Chlorians as the source of the Force.
Star Wars is mainly space fantasy. "The chosen one rescues a princess from the evil fortress". And midichlorians were as scientific as song energy is in Macross.
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Old 2011-04-06, 08:24   Link #1044
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Progress implies a direction. A step backwards is just as easily a step forwards, depending on which direction you're looking in. I'm not saying that I was particularly impressed with what Ranka ended up becoming in the TV series, but there certainly was a change of a sort.

To be fair, I place much less stock in her ideology than I do in how she arrived at the idea. Her moment of "self-revelation" just didn't strike me as awe-inspiring... or anything-inspiring, for that matter. I was just left with a feeling of: "Oh, so you're popping off for a bit of a saunter. Will you be back in time for tea?"

By the way, the picture of the V-virus labeled as "bacteria" is always good for a bit of a laugh. Fictitious science indeed.

Would the phrase "deus ex machina" suffice?
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Old 2011-04-06, 08:40   Link #1045
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Progress implies a direction. A step backwards is just as easily a step forwards, depending on which direction you're looking in. I'm not saying that I was particularly impressed with what Ranka ended up becoming in the TV series, but there certainly was a change of a sort.

To be fair, I place much less stock in her ideology than I do in how she arrived at the idea. Her moment of "self-revelation" just didn't strike me as awe-inspiring... or anything-inspiring, for that matter. I was just left with a feeling of: "Oh, so you're popping off for a bit of a saunter. Will you be back in time for tea?"

By the way, the picture of the V-virus labeled as "bacteria" is always good for a bit of a laugh. Fictitious science indeed.

Would the phrase "deus ex machina" suffice?
"Magic haxx" sounds so much spicier.

And maybe I am just too focused on seeing a character progress forward. It certainly happened in a positive way with Sheryl and Alto, so seeing how Ranka reached a certain level of maturity and then regressed into a worse version than her starting position ( on some levels, not all levels ) was a disappointment.

But it certainly did seem deliberate on part of the writers.
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Old 2011-04-06, 08:59   Link #1046
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Magic haxx sounds stupid. Especially because it is not a magical source how she interacts with the Vajra. It's all about communication. Otherwise should we move on and argue that Sheryl is also magically haxxed when she tries to communicate with the Vajra?

Alto and a positive progress? Sorry but on this stage he starts to crumble.

I felt more dissappointed of Alto because now starts to recognize that he failed to make decisions what he truly wants or desires and even expected of him. And that at a point where he is about to lose friends and comrades.
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Old 2011-04-06, 09:02   Link #1047
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Originally Posted by Father Hentai View Post
Magic haxx sounds stupid. Especially because it is not a magical source how she interacts with the Vajra. It's all about communication. Otherwise should we move on and argue that Sheryl is also magically haxxed when she tries to communicate with the Vajra?
Humor. Look it up. It's an interesting concept which might benefit you in the future.

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Alto and a positive progress? Sorry but on this stage he starts to crumble.

I felt more dissappointed of Alto because now starts to recognize that he failed to make decisions what he truly wants or desires and even expected of him. And that at a point where he is about to lose friends and comrades.
That is a very generalized view of the character, to which I can say nothing, on account of not knowing where your specific problems with Alto lie. Which exact situations are you talking about?
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Old 2011-04-06, 09:17   Link #1048
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Just to major points:

- Until now he did not decide which girl he favors
- He lost his fights against Brera in terms of protecting Ranka
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Old 2011-04-06, 09:20   Link #1049
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Originally Posted by Father Hentai View Post
- Until now he did not decide which girl he favors
I think it was pretty clear that he chose Sheryl. Not his fault as a character that the show just... ended. An episode 26 would have been immensely helpful to finish off all character arcs, but the trend where he was going with his feelings was made almost crystal clear in the episodes preceding the final episode.

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- He lost his fights against Brera in terms of protecting Ranka
And that has to do exactly what with his character progression?

*edit* Wait, belay that, it actually drove his character progression forward, because he recognized that he could not just focus on protecting Ranka, because there was someone else who was doing it better. So it drove him to look for a better meaning for his life, which he found in protecting all of Frontier. So, still not seeing how that was not positive progress.

Anyway, I'm off to college for a late-afternoon seminar.
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Old 2011-04-06, 17:11   Link #1050
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I think it was pretty clear that he chose Sheryl.
Indeed. In fact, Episodes 20 - 21 do provide an explanation as to what happens: He already chose Sheryl, but doesn't dare to say it until he is sure all Vajra are away (or at least, big ones are). Because if he did say "You are my wings, Sheryl" instead of what he said, Ranka would probably throw a tantrum ...again... and at that point it would kill everybody.


On another note, Klan Klan busting Vajra with BFG is awesome...
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Old 2011-04-07, 03:12   Link #1051
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Because if he did say "You are my wings, Sheryl" instead of what he said, Ranka would probably throw a tantrum ...again... and at that point it would kill everybody.


On another note, Klan Klan busting Vajra with BFG is awesome...
This is just an assumption. The situation escalated because she run across on the roof.
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Old 2011-04-07, 03:20   Link #1052
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Originally Posted by Father Hentai View Post
Just to major points:

- Until now he did not decide which girl he favors
Actually I disagree with this.

It was pretty obvious he isn't feeling something romantic for Ranka (he's even "surprised" at her confession). This was a big chance to show it before the Ai kun fiasco. Instead their interaction was all platonic from his side (and the first question Alto asked to Ranka when he met her is about why won't she sing).

This is Ranka in despair episode. She's hitting rock bottom. Did Alto embrace her, make love to her and wipe out her tears away, promising to be at her side?

Being unable to do that and unwilling to follow her is proof enough he's just not that into her. You make sacrifices for the one you love.
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Old 2011-04-07, 05:19   Link #1053
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Actually I disagree with this.

It was pretty obvious he isn't feeling something romantic for Ranka (he's even "surprised" at her confession). This was a big chance to show it before the Ai kun fiasco. Instead their interaction was all platonic from his side (and the first question Alto asked to Ranka when he met her is about why won't she sing).
That he is not feeling for Ranka is out of question. That he tells her how he feels is something what he should have done at episode 15 when both girls made a song contest in the hospital. It was very clear that both are not only making fun of the situation but that they have a heart for Alto. Furthermore he had the same chance to tell the truth when he sneaked into Rankas room, where she asked if what she is doing was correct. And latest when playboy Michel told him that Ranka was only singing for him. The interesting part is that Michel , who is actually a playboy, is telling him to tell her the truth already. But then the situation on the rooftop happens.

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This is Ranka in despair episode. She's hitting rock bottom. Did Alto embrace her, make love to her and wipe out her tears away, promising to be at her side?
Alto embraces to Sheryl in the next episode after Ranka left. But interesting that even Sheryl thought that he only does it because out of pity (and because Ranka is gone).

@Magnus. You are correct that from here on Alto makes a progress. But only because all factors where he has to decide are taken away or left him. It's like changing from hardmode to easymode in a videogame.
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Old 2011-04-07, 09:10   Link #1054
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@Magnus. You are correct that from here on Alto makes a progress. But only because all factors where he has to decide are taken away or left him. It's like changing from hardmode to easymode in a videogame.
LOL. Yeah, okay. I am sure it was "easy mode" for him. Right.
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Old 2011-04-07, 09:32   Link #1055
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Sure. He only has to decide to kill or not to kill Ranka
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Old 2011-04-07, 09:45   Link #1056
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That he is not feeling for Ranka is out of question. That he tells her how he feels is something what he should have done at episode 15 when both girls made a song contest in the hospital. It was very clear that both are not only making fun of the situation but that they have a heart for Alto. Furthermore he had the same chance to tell the truth when he sneaked into Rankas room, where she asked if what she is doing was correct. And latest when playboy Michel told him that Ranka was only singing for him. The interesting part is that Michel , who is actually a playboy, is telling him to tell her the truth already. But then the situation on the rooftop happens.

see the thing about that is it isn't Alto's responsibility to do that, because to him Ranka just has a childish crush. His disinterest in her in personal matters should have been telling, as he's never shown any interest in her romantically. It was just that Ranka never caught on to those signs and a lot of hope into red herring that ultimately didn't mean anything.

Alto shouldn't have to tell Ranka that him saving her life (even though in retrospect he never done that alone) doesn't mean that he loves her. Alto shouldn't have to tell her that a staged kiss on a movie set doesn't mean that he wants to kiss her, and he shouldn't have to tell her that a staged flight performance for his clients at her concert is not a love confession. The things that Ranka mistook for Alto's interest in her were things that a normal girl would not take as meaning that someone likes them, especially the last one. In fact the last one would have been hilarious if was someone else, and Alto was the one writing the K.

Alto has never lead on Ranka, Ranka came to conclusion that he liked her on her own accord. He snuck into Ranka's room to give her advice it wasn't at all romantic, he did it because of his friendship with her. How can Alto know what Ranka is going through when she doesn't tell him? The boy isn't psychic. Your giving him responsibility to something that he has no reason to think is a problem, and why should he? It helps to protect Frontier's people, that's all he knows as Ranka hadn't told him anything else. The situation on the rooftop was wholly Ranka's fault for blatantly putting her hopes into something that didn't mean anything, and on that in hindsight was pretty stupid of her. There was no logical explanation for why Ranka would even think that, which is why I say that it'd be funny if Alto was the one writing the K.

Quote:
@Magnus. You are correct that from here on Alto makes a progress. But only because all factors where he has to decide are taken away or left him. It's like changing from hardmode to easymode in a videogame.
Actually I'd say it was like easymode to hardmode, cause now Alto has so much more on his plate to deal with, its not just Vajra attacks, and a girl with a schoolgirl crush on him anymore. Its now that he may be losing a person he may actually be attracted to romantically, his home is totaled, all the best fighters sans Klan left, the vajra are not letting up, his best friend just died, and he doesn't know how long Frontier is going to make, adding in with that the very same girl he's actually attracted to stood up to take up the mantel of the girl who abandoned him for dubious reasons at best (as far as he knows) and is therefore hastening her death. His peaceful High School life as he knows it is gone, Alto had to take up responsibility and fast. Seriously you're not giving the other characters enough credit.

I think your main problem is that you basically try to absolve Ranka of anything that she may have done wrong, while blaming everyone else around her, even when there is no one to blame, but Ranka. Like her situation with Alto, which was in part caused her her own inaction. Heck after episode 11 Nanase stops pushing Alto with Ranka, followed by the rest of their mutual friends, and I can't blame them either. If anything it was Ranka who took Alto for granted as she always expected him to be there for her unfailingly.

Last edited by wisteria233; 2011-04-08 at 06:29.
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Old 2011-04-07, 09:49   Link #1057
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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
Actually I'd say it was like easymode to hardmode, cause now Alto has so much more on his plate to deal with, its not just Vajra attacks, and a girl with a schoolgirl crush on him anymore. Its now that he may be losing a person he may actually be attracted to romantically, his home is totaled, all the best fighters sans Klan left, the vajra are not letting up, his best friend just died, and he doesn't know how long Frontier is going to make, adding in with that the very same girl he's actually attracted to stood up to take up the mantel of the girl who abandoned him for dubious reasons at best (as far as he knows) and is therefore hastening her death. His peaceful High School life as he knows it is gone, Alto had to take up responsibility and fast. Seriously you're not giving the other characters enough credit.

I think your main problem is that you basically try to absolve Ranka of anything that she may have done wrong, while blaming everyone else around her, even when there is no one to blame, but Ranka. Like her situation with Alto, which was in part caused her her own inaction. Heck after episode 11 Nanase stops pushing Alto with Ranka, followed by the rest of their mutual friends, and I can't blame them either. If anything it was Ranka who took Alto for granted as she always expected him to be there for her unfailingly.
Pretty much this. No need for me to add anything further to that.

*edit* Curses, I cannot give cookies to Wisteria yet again. Quick, more awesome comments by more people! Preferably ones I haven't given cookies to lately.
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Old 2011-04-07, 14:21   Link #1058
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Alto embraces to Sheryl in the next episode after Ranka left. But interesting that even Sheryl thought that he only does it because out of pity (and because Ranka is gone).
Sheryl thinks a lot of things (tie-in with the novels, it seems she's more aware of Alto's feelings in their last conversation as she refers herself as the "woman he loved" in the future instance of her death, but well, she's sparing his feelings because she believes she's gonna die). What the official material says about that scene is that is one of seduction/wooing/romancing.

We're talking about someone who gets all blushy after Sheryl kisses him the first time, so even kisses are a big deal to him.

The thing is that BEFORE the last minute decision, not "solving" the triangle. The official statement was Alto will move in a "big way" for the girl he loves (circa episode 16-17+). Although one might think that, inside the Franchise, Sheryl/Alto was always the choice since conception.

He made no move towards Ranka. Not a single kiss, not a real understanding or sacrifice from her part. As for Sheryl, we know he broke his very oath and returned home for her sake.

What else happens, it's in next episode re-watch!
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Old 2011-04-08, 17:12   Link #1059
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Before the next analys comes here are my final words for this episode. Had to do some private stuff, so apologize for letting you wait for a reply.

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see the thing about that is it isn't Alto's responsibility to do that, because to him Ranka just has a childish crush. His disinterest in her in personal matters should have been telling, as he's never shown any interest in her romantically. It was just that Ranka never caught on to those signs and a lot of hope into red herring that ultimately didn't mean anything.

Alto shouldn't have to tell Ranka that him saving her life (even though in retrospect he never done that alone) doesn't mean that he loves her. Alto shouldn't have to tell her that a staged kiss on a movie set doesn't mean that he wants to kiss her, and he shouldn't have to tell her that a staged flight performance for his clients at her concert is not a love confession. The things that Ranka mistook for Alto's interest in her were things that a normal girl would not take as meaning that someone likes them, especially the last one. In fact the last one would have been hilarious if was someone else, and Alto was the one writing the K.

Alto has never lead on Ranka, Ranka came to conclusion that he liked her on her own accord. He snuck into Ranka's room to give her advice it wasn't at all romantic, he did it because of his friendship with her. How can Alto know what Ranka is going through when she doesn't tell him? The boy isn't psychic. Your giving him responsibility to something that he has no reason to think is a problem, and why should he? It helps to protect Frontier's people, that's all he knows as Ranka hadn't told him anything else. The situation on the rooftop was wholly Ranka's fault for blatantly putting her hopes into something that didn't mean anything, and on that in hindsight was pretty stupid of her. There was no logical explanation for why Ranka would even think that, which is why I say that it'd be funny if Alto was the one writing the K.



Actually I'd say it was like easymode to hardmode, cause now Alto has so much more on his plate to deal with, its not just Vajra attacks, and a girl with a schoolgirl crush on him anymore. Its now that he may be losing a person he may actually be attracted to romantically, his home is totaled, all the best fighters sans Klan left, the vajra are not letting up, his best friend just died, and he doesn't know how long Frontier is going to make, adding in with that the very same girl he's actually attracted to stood up to take up the mantel of the girl who abandoned him for dubious reasons at best (as far as he knows) and is therefore hastening her death. His peaceful High School life as he knows it is gone, Alto had to take up responsibility and fast. Seriously you're not giving the other characters enough credit.

I think your main problem is that you basically try to absolve Ranka of anything that she may have done wrong, while blaming everyone else around her, even when there is no one to blame, but Ranka. Like her situation with Alto, which was in part caused her her own inaction. Heck after episode 11 Nanase stops pushing Alto with Ranka, followed by the rest of their mutual friends, and I can't blame them either. If anything it was Ranka who took Alto for granted as she always expected him to be there for her unfailingly.
It's not about responsibility but honesty I am speaking. Even though the did not peer, they remained friends. Should friends also not be even honest with their emotions? While Ranka needs to learn this, Alto is in an age where he can do the first steps.

Spoiler for Next ep spoiler tag:


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We're talking about someone who gets all blushy after Sheryl kisses him the first time, so even kisses are a big deal to him.

He made no move towards Ranka. Not a single kiss, not a real understanding or sacrifice from her part. As for Sheryl, we know he broke his very oath and returned home for her sake.

What else happens, it's in next episode re-watch!
He was surprised and then upset that Sheryl kissed him.

He had nowhere else to go. Michel, dead. Klan in grief. He lost Ranka (from a friendly term) to Brera and they flew away. Ozma and part of the SMS are also gone. Where do you think he could go? To his father? To Leon or Luca? There was not much choice because he is stranded on Frontier along with Sheryl (hello Hikaru and Misa!!!). At a point you are correct. Their relationship starts from here. From a heros tale. Well, at least at this point he really can start to become Frontiers hero.
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Old 2011-04-08, 17:37   Link #1060
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He was surprised and then upset that Sheryl kissed him..
Uh, no. When she kissed on the cheek (the FIRST one). He blushed like mad, then he was longingly glancing at her back while she walked away, hand still on his cheek and finally made a faint smile. The lingering hand and longing gaze indicates he was smitten.

He got upset when she dismissed the kiss she gave him on episode 10 as "acting."

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He had nowhere else to go. Michel, dead. Klan in grief. He lost Ranka (from a friendly term) to Brera and they flew away. Ozma and part of the SMS are also gone. Where do you think he could go? To his father? To Leon or Luca? There was not much choice because he is stranded on Frontier along with Sheryl (hello Hikaru and Misa!!!). At a point you are correct. Their relationship starts from here. From a heros tale. Well, at least at this point he really can start to become Frontiers hero.
He could have go with SMS to save Ranka. With his shiny plane. Wasn't his dream to fly and what not? Instead he dumped Ranka's fate to their hands and chose to remain with Sheryl and Frontier. YES, it's heroic. He has a hero's journey. Sheryl helped him realized that (atonement with the father figure, anyone? Running away wouldn't really help his case). Return home. Become a man. His heroics to protect Ranka (that usually never saved her anyway) were kind of superfluous, ego-stroking and immature. Ranka would suit Alto the boy as girlfriend material. Sheryl would suit Alto the adult man as long life companion material.

I think their story began since day one, only displayed in an antagonistic way (like Hikaru and Misa, like Sara and Shin, like Sylvie and Hibiki - traditional!). It's not about the circumstances, as the movie spoilers shows it (you can switch them and still... they won't favor Ranka Lee).

But we're talking about episode 21. If Alto had strong romantic feelings for Ranka, this was the very episode it'll be glimpsed. There was little romantic intimacy from his side or connection to Ranka's pain and mindset (yet he easily notices there's something wrong with Sheryl as much as she attempts to hide it and push him away). Mind you, unlike most here, I don't put the blame only on Ranka, but Alto too. A relationship (platonic or romantic) goes two sides.

And the first thing he asks her when they met again wasn't about her well being but... why she wouldn't sing for Frontier. It's understandable, of course. But not romantic concern.
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