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Old 2011-04-12, 00:56   Link #1101
karice67
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Originally Posted by Father Hentai View Post
Question, did he really rethink or did he just summarize what he must do to protect what is important for him? I am not counting Ranka into what is important for him because she left and because of the next episode which fits into this discussion.
I'd argue that he had "made a decision" to stay WITHOUT fully confirming for himself that it was Frontier, and the people of Frontier, that he wanted to protect. But we need the next episode for this.

=====

And here's part 2 of the Episode 20 Commentary.

18:30 Diamond Crevasse
Nakamura: It was Kanno-san's idea to have it extend straight into the ending, not Yoshino or Kawamori's. I was a bit surprised to find out that it wasn't planned that way from the start!
Kamiya: They'd actually planned to use the original version
Toyoguchi: The ending version, right? And during the rehearsal and the recording, that's what they played. It was only when it went on air that it changed.
Nakamura: I think they only recorded the song around the time that we recorded the episode.
Toyoguchi: So it really was last minute!

=> they talk about Eddie (Kanaria's son) and his father, wondering who the latter was voiced by ("was it Miyake Kenta-san?" "No, I don't think so" "Who was it then? I've forgotten..." etc)

Then...for ~19:46 to 23:37, here's another rough sub file removed. [Once again, pardon the shoddy timing and the stolen typesetting etc...Oh, and please don't redistribute this!]

And finally
23:37 See you next time
Nakamura: So we have one more DVD volume left. Please watch it!
Kamiya: Yes, please do. Although I don't appear in it, but about Macross Frontier, I lov-" (Nakamura: See you, everyone!)

=====

Yup, finally! Just one more commentary left! See you next time, everyone!
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Old 2011-04-12, 01:11   Link #1102
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Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
p.s. Nakamura does joke about 'who Alto likes', but that's mostly because they didn't set it in stone for him. Various comments elsewhere indicate that he's a Sheryl fan. He brings up a few interesting points in the commentary, there's one more in 20 and a couple in 25.
I'll be looking forward to it.

Hrmmm... Mediafire doesn't like to give out the sub, says that the link is broken. -.-
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Old 2011-04-12, 01:51   Link #1103
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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
I'll be looking forward to it.

Hrmmm... Mediafire doesn't like to give out the sub, says that the link is broken. -.-
That's funny...they work for me... Alternatively, try the link to the folder?

p.s. Just in case: the interesting talking points that Nakamura brings up don't always have something to do with Sheryl...
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Old 2011-04-12, 02:12   Link #1104
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That's funny...they work for me... Alternatively, try the link to the folder?

p.s. Just in case: the interesting talking points that Nakamura brings up don't always have something to do with Sheryl...
It seems to work now. Thanks!

*edit* Just watched both subtitled commentaries. Great work!

And, well, at least from Nakamuras commentary he said that Alto was a gentleman, while the other two were pushing the "he's indecisive" line. All seemed a bit disappointed ( if you can call it that with the level of playful commentary they had ) that Sheryl and Alto didn't have more time on the rooftop to chat.

And LOL at Klans seiyuu calling Sheryl "lascivious" for wearing a beret.
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Old 2011-04-12, 03:38   Link #1105
karice67
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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
And, well, at least from Nakamuras commentary he said that Alto was a gentleman, while the other two were pushing the "he's indecisive" line. All seemed a bit disappointed ( if you can call it that with the level of playful commentary they had ) that Sheryl and Alto didn't have more time on the rooftop to chat.

And LOL at Klans seiyuu calling Sheryl "lascivious" for wearing a beret.
heh...that was actually from Kawamori. Nakamura himself thinks Alto is "horrible" in the series. and yeah, Kamiya's 'they're just getting to the good part' really cracked me up ^^

I'm sure she was joking there ^^
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Old 2011-04-12, 05:05   Link #1106
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I'd believe the seiyuus if they say he is horrible (in terms of making a decision towards Ranka and Sheryl). The mayor point why I say this is they have guided the characters longer than we have done it and they spend more time practising or diving into the roles.
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Old 2011-04-12, 07:18   Link #1107
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I'd believe the seiyuus if they say he is horrible (in terms of making a decision towards Ranka and Sheryl). The mayor point why I say this is they have guided the characters longer than we have done it and they spend more time practising or diving into the roles.
I'm not seeing it. It's their opinion, but obviously Yoshino and Kawamori were going for something different with the characters. Hell, I think Alto turned out much better than the writers thought. And Ranka much worse.
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Old 2011-04-12, 07:42   Link #1108
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I'm not seeing it. It's their opinion, but obviously Yoshino and Kawamori were going for something different with the characters. Hell, I think Alto turned out much better than the writers thought. And Ranka much worse.
Do you have a link to the statement of both/one of them how they saw the characters based on the existing episodes or do we only have an overview or summarize how they see them in general.
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Old 2011-04-12, 09:02   Link #1109
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Do you have a link to the statement of both/one of them how they saw the characters based on the existing episodes or do we only have an overview or summarize how they see them in general.
I was referring to the general gist we got out of the interviews of the past. Yoshino sees Alto as indecisive, apparently Kawamori thinks he is a gentleman.

As for Ranka, I don't think we ever got real comments on what they thought of her TV incarnation, but there is the that general disconnect between her status as a main hero protagonist and what then happened with her in the series.
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Old 2011-04-12, 19:11   Link #1110
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I was referring to the general gist we got out of the interviews of the past. Yoshino sees Alto as indecisive, apparently Kawamori thinks he is a gentleman.

As for Ranka, I don't think we ever got real comments on what they thought of her TV incarnation, but there is the that general disconnect between her status as a main hero protagonist and what then happened with her in the series.
Well, both are correct. Alto is a gentlemen in how he treats the girls in terms of a friendship but in terms of building up a relationship he is horrible.

Now try to understand both Sheryl and Ranka. They both are battling for Altos attention. And almost at the end of the series Alto make a decision when one of the ladies is gone. So from this point the seiyuu is correct..

Regarding his role as a defender I think he was quite uncertain as well and Ozma forced him to make a decision in episode 22. Before that he struggled between one person and the fleet. But I don't think he was horrible here. It was just that someone had to kick his ass.

Going to Ranka. I think I won't comment this because whatever I say about her as (a tragic) hero, no one would believe it.
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Old 2011-04-12, 19:12   Link #1111
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Going to Ranka. I think I won't comment this because whatever I say about her as (a tragic) hero, no one would believe it.
Yeah, she's got the Cassandra role written over her.
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Old 2011-04-12, 22:17   Link #1112
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Note on Alto: I believe there is a more concrete word for Alto's 'indecisiveness' (it's been used in some movie interviews, IIRC, I just don't remember what it is atm...) but the word most of the cast use is "furafura" (ふらふら), which you might translate as "unsteady; neither here nor there; indecisive".

Quote:
Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
I was referring to the general gist we got out of the interviews of the past. Yoshino sees Alto as indecisive, apparently Kawamori thinks he is a gentleman.

As for Ranka, I don't think we ever got real comments on what they thought of her TV incarnation, but there is the that general disconnect between her status as a main hero protagonist and what then happened with her in the series.
That was just one comment that Nakamura related from Kawamori-sensei, and I took it as a 'tongue-in-cheek' comment from the director. He's said a lot more, some of which is in the ep.25 commentary (IIRC), but one point from movie interviews that stands out is about how Alto's character in the movie differs from his series counterpart: Kawamori says that the way Alto is in the series is more realistic.

This isn't the movie thread, so I'm not going to be more specific as to which aspect of Alto he was referring to, but if you've followed some of the movie reactions, you should be able to figure it out.

As for Ranka, I think it's safe to say that your opinion differs from those of Kawamori and Yoshino. I also don't believe she deserves all the hate she's been getting. After finding out that Ai-kun was a Vajra in episode 21, do you seriously think she could keep singing so that people could destroy others of his kind? Especially when their deaths clearly cause her great pain, even if she doesn't understand why? Trying to ask Alto to go was stupid, seemingly not caring about Nanase or Ozma also reflects badly on her, but I do think that leaving was the only option available to Ranka given HER circumstances, and it just so happened that Brera was the one who offered to take her. Of course, if she'd decided to turn Ai-kun in to the authorities when she first found him, she probably wouldn't have reached this point...

Do feel free to shoot me down, but seriously, I think that the Ranka hate here is getting out of hand.

=======
And this is old, but I just realised something when I was rewatching some episodes over the last few days...

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Instead their interaction was all platonic from his side (and the first question Alto asked to Ranka when he met her is about why won't she sing).

This is Ranka in despair episode. She's hitting rock bottom. Did Alto embrace her, make love to her and wipe out her tears away, promising to be at her side?
I'm not going to deny the platonic observation, but there is a good reason for Alto's focus on the 'not singing' issue. Remember back in episode 5, where Klan and Sheryl say that it's "because they can't help not doing it"? And how about Sheryl until ep.19? Ranka loves singing, he knows that, so if she's decided to stop singing, something's wrong => I think that's what he wanted to ask her about - perhaps it'd have been clearer if he'd asked "What's wrong?" directly - before she cut him off...
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Last edited by karice67; 2011-04-12 at 23:21. Reason: oops...
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Old 2011-04-13, 02:30   Link #1113
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Well, both are correct. Alto is a gentlemen in how he treats the girls in terms of a friendship but in terms of building up a relationship he is horrible.

Now try to understand both Sheryl and Ranka. They both are battling for Altos attention. And almost at the end of the series Alto make a decision when one of the ladies is gone. So from this point the seiyuu is correct..
Not really. First off, Ranka has not really actively tried to woo Alto ( unless you count "existing" as wooing ) and instead just confessed to him when she was in the process of leaving and betraying Frontier, i.e. she put a giant guilt trip on Alto. I do not see how it is his responsibility to keep chaste and wait for her return when she was the one to remove herself from the picture.

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Going to Ranka. I think I won't comment this because whatever I say about her as (a tragic) hero, no one would believe it.
That would be correct. For her to be a tragic hero, she would need to be a.) tragic and b.) a hero. Neither condition holds true.

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This isn't the movie thread, so I'm not going to be more specific as to which aspect of Alto he was referring to, but if you've followed some of the movie reactions, you should be able to figure it out.
Actually I got no clue what you are talking about.
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Old 2011-04-13, 03:15   Link #1114
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That was just one comment that Nakamura related from Kawamori-sensei, and I took it as a 'tongue-in-cheek' comment from the director. He's said a lot more, some of which is in the ep.25 commentary (IIRC), but one point from movie interviews that stands out is about how Alto's character in the movie differs from his series counterpart: Kawamori says that the way Alto is in the series is more realistic.
This is understandable. The movie versions are more flawless in general, Alto included. While the tv series version of the characters present more an organic development and flaws.

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Do feel free to shoot me down, but seriously, I think that the Ranka hate here is getting out of hand.
I agree.

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Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
I'm not going to deny the platonic observation, but there is a good reason for Alto's focus on the 'not singing' issue. Remember back in episode 5, where Klan and Sheryl say that it's "because they can't help not doing it"? And how about Sheryl until ep.19? Ranka loves singing, he knows that, so if she's decided to stop singing, something's wrong => I think that's what he wanted to ask her about - perhaps it'd have been clearer if he'd asked "What's wrong?" directly - before she cut him off...
Taking it out of context? Yeah could be similar, but place the scenes -in context-? Ranka loves singing, sure, but after what happened in the last episode? I mean did Alto think that never affect her? While Sheryl's decision was out of blue for him. And he harped on her about it for her sake. It wasn't for the sake of everyone like with Ranka, but for her sake. He's passionate about encouraging Sheryl.
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Old 2011-04-13, 03:50   Link #1115
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Note on Alto: I believe there is a more concrete word for Alto's 'indecisiveness' (it's been used in some movie interviews, IIRC, I just don't remember what it is atm...) but the word most of the cast use is "furafura" (ふらふら), which you might translate as "unsteady; neither here nor there; indecisive".

That was just one comment that Nakamura related from Kawamori-sensei, and I took it as a 'tongue-in-cheek' comment from the director. He's said a lot more, some of which is in the ep.25 commentary (IIRC), but one point from movie interviews that stands out is about how Alto's character in the movie differs from his series counterpart: Kawamori says that the way Alto is in the series is more realistic.

Just a question on the last part. Could it be that there is a translation error and he means "more human" led by more passion and even flaws?

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Not really. First off, Ranka has not really actively tried to woo Alto ( unless you count "existing" as wooing ) and instead just confessed to him when she was in the process of leaving and betraying Frontier, i.e. she put a giant guilt trip on Alto. I do not see how it is his responsibility to keep chaste and wait for her return when she was the one to remove herself from the picture.
She wanted to confess in episode 19 already after she has realized that her singing is not driven for being the Songstress of Hope but for the one she loves. And I think Brera was jealous behind the stage because he also realized that she is only singing for Alto. Also singing for someone is a way to say that you love someone. But on the other side... Alto is just numb and for this a sinner (Michels words).
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Old 2011-04-13, 05:04   Link #1116
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Taking it out of context? Yeah could be similar, but place the scenes -in context-? Ranka loves singing, sure, but after what happened in the last episode? I mean did Alto think that never affect her?
Actually, that's what I mean - he knows something has affected her because (1) she did agree to sing in 21, and (2) her singing would have comforted people, so it's a mystery to him why she would have chosen not to sing in such circumstances. So he may have been trying to find out more about what exactly it is that's troubling her, though by asking something like "Why won't you sing anymore?" rather than "What's wrong?"

Basically, I disagree with this statement you made a while back:
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And the first thing he asks her when they met again wasn't about her well being but... why she wouldn't sing for Frontier. It's understandable, of course. But not romantic concern.
I think you could interpret his question as being an expression of concern for Ranka. Not romantic concern, but concern all the same.


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Actually I got no clue what you are talking about.
See our last conversation on this page. Though admittedly, the question in the interview wasn't just about that particular aspect of Alto, but about series vs. movie Alto in general.


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Just a question on the last part. Could it be that there is a translation error and he means "more human" led by more passion and even flaws?
Hm...it was a video interview that I'm not going to check again right now, but the notes I made on it say "more realistic, closer to what people do in real life".
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Old 2011-04-13, 09:19   Link #1117
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She wanted to confess in episode 19 already after she has realized that her singing is not driven for being the Songstress of Hope but for the one she loves. And I think Brera was jealous behind the stage because he also realized that she is only singing for Alto. Also singing for someone is a way to say that you love someone.
Again, false. She imagined that Alto was sending her a love message via the writing in the sky and as such went up to the rooftop, because she thought that this was his confession.

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Alto is just numb and for this a sinner
What.

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See our last conversation on this page. Though admittedly, the question in the interview wasn't just about that particular aspect of Alto, but about series vs. movie Alto in general.
Ah, the was more decisive in the movie. Okay, I'll have to look for that whenever the movie is out on DVD.
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Old 2011-04-13, 09:48   Link #1118
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Again, false. She imagined that Alto was sending her a love message via the writing in the sky and as such went up to the rooftop, because she thought that this was his confession.
No, you have not paid much attention to the discussion with Brera and the flashing memories Ranka had in episode 19. The heart in the sky made it worser because she thought that Alto was also in love with her. Look again. However what drives her to sing was before the sky message scene.

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What.
Look again. Michel said it is a sin to be numb. (Thora sub)
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Old 2011-04-13, 09:58   Link #1119
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No, you have not paid much attention to the discussion with Brera and the flashing memories Ranka had in episode 19. The heart in the sky made it worser because she thought that Alto was also in love with her. Look again. However what drives her to sing was before the sky message scene.
Where exactly does it say in those flashbacks that she was about to confess to him without his "encouragment", i.e. her misreading of the sky-writing?

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Look again. Michel said it is a sin to be numb. (Thora sub)
Learn better quoting. He said "It's also a sin to be that dense". "Dense" and "numb" mean totally different things. And, yes, I got the THORA sub, too.
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Old 2011-04-13, 12:42   Link #1120
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Where exactly does it say in those flashbacks that she was about to confess to him without his "encouragment", i.e. her misreading of the sky-writing?
The discussion with Brera and the flashbacks/memories are the scenes where she realized what she deeply wants. And it was not to be a Songstress of Hope or singing for the people of frontier.

Then see Ranka performing her two songs (which are straight meant for Alto) and Alto makes his stunt including the arrow.

In 22:04 min we see Ranka running the stairs sure to tell him what she feels.

All above scenes are in episode 19.


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Learn better quoting. He said "It's also a sin to be that dense". "Dense" and "numb" mean totally different things. And, yes, I got the THORA sub, too.
Learn better understanding I would say. I take this as a personal note to improve my English. However this is a free forum with no aggressive lecturing bans like in elitistjerks.
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