AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Macross

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2011-04-30, 05:12   Link #1301
magnuskn
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Age: 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
Nah, it's still direct (and intentional)...it's just been explained, rather than being Magic Ranka Virus Hax.
I think you could still say that Ranka served as a conduit for the bacteria to join the communication network of the Vajra. Or something.

---

Anyway, on to the last episode commentary! What shall we ever do with our Saturdays now? Who wants to organize the SDFM rewatch? ( Not me, too much on my plate in RL )

- We start out with Sheryls heartrending scream from last episode apparently never having happened. Yeah, you could say that Kawamori plays fast and loose with continuity...

- Macross Quarter to the rescue! And a freak occurence frees Brera from his behavioral control.

- Seems like Luca really wanted to be the uke to Ozma again...

- And Alto apparently has access to the command channels, too. I guess being the boyfriend of Sheryl gives you privileges. Although I find the reaction of Sheryl a bit too mild, considering her scream from... oh, wait, that was ret-conned.

- I guess nobody really like Leon. Or everybody in command from Battle Frontier really trusted Cathy.

- Tentacle Grace. Ewwww.

- Man, it sucks that Altos two wingmen just got downed like that.

- Oh, chibi-Klan in VF-pilot duds looks so cute.

- "I heard your soul screaming" "Save me!" The mating cry of the greenoid Ranka, indeed.

- Nice that everybody from the supporting cast of pilots got one more moment to shine. I hope that Klan manages to move forward and will not cling to her obsession with Michael forever.

- The fighting and singing sequence that follows looks amazing.

- Why exactly destroying Breras harmonica is symbolic for Ranka getting out of Graces influence is a question for the ages...

- How did all those cables fit into Graces body? Ewwwwwwww.

- Nothing beats a good megalomaniacal monologue.

- Am I the only asking myself what those wings on Macross 11 were good for?

- That the Vajra bacteria were "greying" Sheryl's hair also is best left in the department of "yeah, it was, like, symbolic. Pass me the bong, please".

- How exactly did Brera enter the "sound network"?

- I'll let others talk about "the slap". Still angry with it.

- Well, in light of karice once again posting that the "Both of you are my wings" line wasn't about the triangle, I'll spare everybody another diatribe how the timing of it was done.

- Ranka at least did something for Sheryl in regards to the bacteria, even if those bacteria then decided to move on their own to Sheryl's stomach. My guess is, she hooked them up to her personal communication network, so that they recognized that Sheryl is an individual.

- Wow, they should have used Battle Frontier a bit more prominently throughout the series.

- Hey, did the bacteria in Rankas stomach make a smiley face?

- Although we only see it for a second, it's nice to see that the artists acknowledged that Sheryl now has the exact same powers as Ranka ( by which I mean we see Sheryls stomach glowing, too ).

- Although an explanation of the Vajras behaviour was nice and needed, I still think that they were the worst antagonists the Frontier franchise has had. This may come down to personal preferences, of course.

- ZOMG, Alto so totally saluted Sheryl, not Ranka! Yeah, the fights of yesteryear...

- Ooooh, so now I get it. Ai-kun, as emissary of Ranka, transforms all the pink Vajra back to their red Vajra-ness.

- I guess Perry-kuns clones mustache fell off in surprise at the Vajras action.

- Ah, the good old Macross Attack. Did they ever do that in Macross 7?

- Macross Frontier PUNCH!

- Yeah, Alto is going to be national hero number one after this. No wonder he went undercover... ^^

- So, hm, Alto trying to "grasp" Michaels gun in his cockpit kinda speaks to some virtual controls for his battroid form. I know pilots are supposed to move their mecha only with their sticks and foot pedals, but giving how anthromorphic some of their movements are, that always rang hollow for me. "Thinking caps" from Robotech made more sense, as did neurohelmets from BattleTech.

- Alto Saotome: From Vajra hater to Vajra advocate. ^^

- The logic that the Vajra queen will survive if it is only her head which is shot off is again a lot of handwavium being spread around.

- Rule of cool now strictly applies to everything: Sheryl and Ranka losing their virtual clothes, Alto being so rad that his aura of cool destroys his helmet glass.

- What did we learn just now? Vajra queen heads are filled with explosives.

- What exactly was Bilrers endgame plan here? Did he expect Minmay to be on the Vajra planet?

- Great, Alto, start polluting your pristine new planet right from the get-go. Do you know how many pollutants are in a burned out VF-25?

- I won't talk about Rankas silly challenge, no no no. Sore loser girl is sore loser girl.

- Yeah, rub it in one final time that Brera is the better pilot and did not had to have his VF-27 crash and burn at the end.

- BTW, that bird-human totem tells me that there are protoculture ruins around. Those should be good for at least one OVA.

So, we are at the end. And, although it is clear whom Alto chose, the writers could and should have made it pristine clear in the damn series. I prefer strong narratives ending with a strong ending.

All in all, Macross Frontier is an amazing series. The combination of romance, music and combat worked uniquely to craft a masterpiece of entertainment, for me a strong contender for best Macross product, ever. I am still torn between SDFM and Frontier, because SDFM contains so much nostalgia and was the original work, while Frontier has, all-in-all, better characters on the side of the good guys and has way better music. Although SDFM beat Frontier easily in the department of interesting antagonists. I think I'll declare it a tie, because I don't want to choose between those two series.

I want to say "thank you" to all who participated and contributed in this thread, it was a pleasure to discuss with you all, however contentious some of the discussions may have become. I hope someone organizes a SDFM re-watch thread, because to bridge the time-gap until the next Macross project, we need to keep ourselves entertained and SDFM is an excellent series to talk about.

Thank you all!
__________________
magnuskn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-04-30, 07:57   Link #1302
wisteria233
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: New York, NY
Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
hm...I may be shot for this, but I don't really understand why people get so angry about the slap...
Well its because Sheryl was dying, and she was shown to be fighting against it, it was shown that she really didn't want to die. So Ranka was essentially slapping a terminally ill, dying girl, on her death bed, for essentially dying, even though said girl wouldn't have given up if she wasn't about to go towards the light against her will, and didn't have the strength to stand.

It feels very immature of Ranka, to do such a thing. And Ranka could cure her, but she never told Sheryl this before she smacked her.
wisteria233 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-04-30, 08:12   Link #1303
Father Hentai
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Munich, Germany
Quote:
Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
Well its because Sheryl was dying, and she was shown to be fighting against it, it was shown that she really didn't want to die. So Ranka was essentially slapping a terminally ill, dying girl, on her death bed, for essentially dying, even though said girl wouldn't have given up if she wasn't about to go towards the light against her will, and didn't have the strength to stand.

It feels very immature of Ranka, to do such a thing. And Ranka could cure her, but she never told Sheryl this before she smacked her.
There is something I don't understand here. The final episodes reveal that she is ready to face death but it does not really say that she did not want to die. I think to remember that she is afraid to die but that was before episode 24 and 25.

At a point I understand why some are upset about the scenery but listening to Sheryls talk "There is nothing left for me... Nothing at all..." just made me think she is just whining and giving up all hope to live.
__________________
Born the same day as Satoshi Urushihara... Ill fated?
Father Hentai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-04-30, 08:19   Link #1304
karice67
さっく♥ゆうきゃん♥ほそやん
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: back in the land down under...
Quote:
Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
Well its because Sheryl was dying, and she was shown to be fighting against it, it was shown that she really didn't want to die. So Ranka was essentially slapping a terminally ill, dying girl, on her death bed, for essentially dying, even though said girl wouldn't have given up if she wasn't about to go towards the light against her will, and didn't have the strength to stand.

It feels very immature of Ranka, to do such a thing. And Ranka could cure her, but she never told Sheryl this before she smacked her.
I guess I read that scene very differently from you. To me, it appears that Sheryl had given up - note that Alto realised it too - and Ranka was upset because of that.

(Questions like 'how could Ranka have known what Sheryl felt?' should be directed at Yoshino and Kawamori, though I assume it was due to the whole 'fold space' thing.)

Btw, are you sure Sheryl was fighting against dying? Because that's most definitely not what I got out of what she said and did in episode 24. She didn't want to die, sure, but I don't think she had her heart set on fighting against it.
__________________

You must free yourself from that illusion,
from the illusion that a story must have a beginning and an end.


"No, you are not entitled to your opinion... You are only entitled to what you can argue for.
- Patrick Stokes


karice's random translations (interviews, audio commentaries, manga, radio shows etc etc)

karice67 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-04-30, 08:46   Link #1305
BetoJR
D-d-don't look!!!
*Artist
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Fortaleza-CE, Brazil
Age: 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
It feels very immature of Ranka, to do such a thing. And Ranka could cure her, but she never told Sheryl this before she smacked her.
This pretty much sums my problems with that particular scene, as well. It feels tacky and revengeful, in a way.

It also goes against the whole "she was whining, and had given up" arguments. How do you fight against death, when it's a foregone conclusion and seems to have reached the breaking point (remember her hair changing color)?
__________________
It's always a great time to immerse yourself in Deculture love!
All hail the Empress!!!

BetoJR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-04-30, 08:53   Link #1306
Swampstorm
Lovestruck Fool?
*Fansubber
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
I was under the impression that Sheryl had been planning to sacrifice herself for the sake of Frontier for a while, based on her conversation with Luca and Leon in episode 23. I don't think that "giving up" was ever really an issue, because as far as anyone knew, Sheryl's impending death was set in stone. She realized that if she didn't have a chance of surviving, herself, then she might as well sacrifice herself to give hope to the people around her. If she, Alto, or Klan believed that there was a possibility of her cure, I would expect that the decisions that Sheryl made would have been different.

When and how Ranka found out there was ever a possibility to the contrary was never revealed in the story, to the best of my knowledge, and her method of communicating her wonderful discovery strikes me as odd, to say the least. Not that we ever really get much explanation for the decisions that she makes, post-episode 21.
__________________
Swampstorm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-04-30, 09:04   Link #1307
karice67
さっく♥ゆうきゃん♥ほそやん
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: back in the land down under...
^
She'd planned to burn herself out singing for the fleet. The issue though, is that Sheryl stopped trying at that point (9:55), which is why her head went dark. That's the reason Alto later said "Didn't you say you wouldn't give up? I certainly haven't".

It's the fold crystals (which the viruses have). If, as Kawamori says, they simply resonated with Ranka before moving down on their own, then perhaps they saw Sheryl as an enemy before that? (grasping at straws here, because I'm not too clear on it myself, like, how do the viruses know whether they should be in the brain or in the stomach/digestive track?...)
__________________

You must free yourself from that illusion,
from the illusion that a story must have a beginning and an end.


"No, you are not entitled to your opinion... You are only entitled to what you can argue for.
- Patrick Stokes


karice's random translations (interviews, audio commentaries, manga, radio shows etc etc)

karice67 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-04-30, 09:07   Link #1308
Father Hentai
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Munich, Germany
Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
^
She'd planned to burn herself out singing for the fleet. The issue though, is that Sheryl stopped trying at that point (9:55), which is why her head went dark. That's the reason Alto later said "Didn't you say you wouldn't give up? I certainly haven't".

It's the fold crystals (which the viruses have). The first movie makes their effect much clearer.
Just about the last thing about the hair change. So the hair change could be a reaction of Graces take over the Vajra? That is what I thought before I saw your reply. I was about to reply similar to BetoJR although I have not seen the movie (btw. spoilertag? )

About the slap. I agree if some say it is coated but on the other side it's the best method to shock someone and have the full attention.
__________________
Born the same day as Satoshi Urushihara... Ill fated?
Father Hentai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-04-30, 09:10   Link #1309
karice67
さっく♥ゆうきゃん♥ほそやん
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: back in the land down under...
^ sorry, just changed it anyway, but I was actually referring to the first movie, which I assume everyone's seen.

No. I'm pretty certain Sheryl's head went dark because she gave up trying.

And I agree - I'd probably have slapped her too, if I were in the same situation. Though a follow up hug or something would have been nice.
__________________

You must free yourself from that illusion,
from the illusion that a story must have a beginning and an end.


"No, you are not entitled to your opinion... You are only entitled to what you can argue for.
- Patrick Stokes


karice's random translations (interviews, audio commentaries, manga, radio shows etc etc)

karice67 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-04-30, 09:10   Link #1310
Lancel
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
In a way she was fighting against death, but not her own. Sheryl was fighting not for herself to get a happy ending, but for everyone else to. Notably she treats this last concert like her last act, and honestly I feel she didn't just suspect, but knew she would not survive the final battle. All she could do is do her best to make sure everyone else survived and got a happy ending, such as in telling Alto to save Ranka, and in a lot of ways it's why she stopped Alto from saying anything I feel. Like Schrodinger's Cat she left herself in a state of both in a relationship and not in a relationship with Alto. That uncertainly let her believe Alto could love her without him dedicating himself to her, and left it open for Alto to move on as painlessly as possible. If he did love her, the pain would be that this would be the last time they see one another. If he didn't, well that just shatters Sheryl's imagination and confidence.

In a way she kinda prevents Alto from saying anything just because she's dying. Although she says she'll hear it after the battle, it's clear from her behavior before her last dive she doesn't expect to survive the final battle, thus she'll never get to hear it. This leaves it open for Alto/Ranka without causing too much guilt in Alto.

What really says it to me is the very last scene and the subtle expression on Sheryl's face as she looks up at Alto. Stunned, happy, and in something of disbelief. This was the happy ending she did not expect to see, and now she presumably has her whole life ahead of her. I consider it a pretty life changing experience that whole final battle, and I think it affected Sheryl profoundly, though the tiny epilogue doesn't offer much.

Before that, however, Sheryl had pretty much resigned herself to death. It was just a question of what she could do with the time she had left.
Lancel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-04-30, 09:15   Link #1311
Father Hentai
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Munich, Germany
Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
^ sorry, just changed it anyway, but I was actually referring to the first movie, which I assume everyone's seen.

No. I'm pretty certain Sheryl's head went dark because she gave up trying.

And I agree - I'd probably have slapped her too, if I were in the same situation. Though a follow up hug or something would have been nice.
Ehm. They hugged on the planet and I am jealous about Ranka because her head is on the same height as Sheryls boobs.
Edit: Alto intervened, maybe she wanted to hug her but bla, this would make it more as a repeat of episode 20 what I really did not want to think of because this only puts more fire into the payback thinkings of some people...
__________________
Born the same day as Satoshi Urushihara... Ill fated?
Father Hentai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-04-30, 09:18   Link #1312
BetoJR
D-d-don't look!!!
*Artist
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Fortaleza-CE, Brazil
Age: 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
No. I'm pretty certain Sheryl's head went dark because she gave up trying.
Or maybe because she was, I dunno, DYING? Remember her terminal illness? That no one could find a way to cure? And she had no reason to think she could escape from? Maybe that had something to do with it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
And I agree - I'd probably have slapped her too, if I were in the same situation. Though a follow up hug or something would have been nice.
Well, I wouldn't. I'd have told her, as regards my understanding of the "bacteria"-like infection through fold-space communication, that she could be saved and that she didn't have to die. IF she didn't respond to that, I might resort to a slap to shock her out of her funk. But that's not how it happened. Ranka did not mention she could save her, at all. She simply lost her patience and slapped a dying girl. It still rankles, dude.
__________________
It's always a great time to immerse yourself in Deculture love!
All hail the Empress!!!

BetoJR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-04-30, 09:33   Link #1313
Father Hentai
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Munich, Germany
Quote:
Originally Posted by BetoJR View Post
Well, I wouldn't. I'd have told her, as regards my understanding of the "bacteria"-like infection through fold-space communication, that she could be saved and that she didn't have to die. IF she didn't respond to that, I might resort to a slap to shock her out of her funk. But that's not how it happened. Ranka did not mention she could save her, at all. She simply lost her patience and slapped a dying girl. It still rankles, dude.

I have some open thoughts here. Going on from the point that Ranka does not know that Sheryl is dying the slap was because she has given up. Even her words do not say that she is about to die. We as the viewers know this and some hand full of characters in the series. Ranka only wanted to wake her up from her conclusion that all work is done (in the middle of the fight against the Vajra and Battle Galaxy) and she has nothing at all.

Ranka is not the arc character who sets a payback and kicks more people who are almost dead.
__________________
Born the same day as Satoshi Urushihara... Ill fated?
Father Hentai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-04-30, 09:34   Link #1314
karice67
さっく♥ゆうきゃん♥ほそやん
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: back in the land down under...
Quote:
Originally Posted by BetoJR View Post
Or maybe because she was, I dunno, DYING? Remember her terminal illness? That no one could find a way to cure? And she had no reason to think she could escape from? Maybe that had something to do with it?
Compare the Sheryl there to the Sheryl just after she found out that Alto hadn't died (when he asked her once again to sing). To me, it's a significant change in attitude, considering she expected right from the start that she wouldn't survive the battle. The impression I got was that everyone there was starting to give up (Cathy, Alto even), until Ranka came back on their side. But Sheryl, and Sheryl alone, needed the extra push to get back up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BetoJR View Post
Well, I wouldn't. I'd have told her, as regards my understanding of the "bacteria"-like infection through fold-space communication, that she could be saved and that she didn't have to die. IF she didn't respond to that, I might resort to a slap to shock her out of her funk. But that's not how it happened. Ranka did not mention she could save her, at all. She simply lost her patience and slapped a dying girl. It still rankles, dude.
I wouldn't say she lost her patience, but rather that she felt she needed to shock Sheryl out of that funk asap... It'd be especially important if there's some sort of placebo effect too...

Kawamori, Endou-san and Megumi-chan described it as representing 'the size of (Ranka's) feelings', noting that she'd 'grown up'... though *shrugs* we're all entitled to our own interpretations.
__________________

You must free yourself from that illusion,
from the illusion that a story must have a beginning and an end.


"No, you are not entitled to your opinion... You are only entitled to what you can argue for.
- Patrick Stokes


karice's random translations (interviews, audio commentaries, manga, radio shows etc etc)

karice67 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-04-30, 09:35   Link #1315
magnuskn
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Age: 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
And I agree - I'd probably have slapped her too, if I were in the same situation. Though a follow up hug or something would have been nice.
I think the situation is quite different between someone having a hysterical breakdown ( Ranka ) and someone having lost hope ( Sheryl ). The first situation warranted a "break out of it!" slap, the second one... didn't. Also, as Beto said, it is quite possible that Sheryl was dying at the moment. Actually, I think it is very likely. Sheryls hair greying out was a physical phenomenon, after all.
__________________
magnuskn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-04-30, 09:39   Link #1316
Father Hentai
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Munich, Germany
Quote:
Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
I think the situation is quite different between someone having a hysterical breakdown ( Ranka ) and someone having lost hope ( Sheryl ). The first situation warranted a "break out of it!" slap, the second one... didn't.
But isn't it allowed to hug a friend to say "I'm sorry for what I just did but I had to bring you back to senses"?

And going back to the sitution in episode 20 about being hysteric. The scene where Alto had Sheryl in his arms just broke her heart and the same boy asks her to sing? I think this should give some thoughts about Alto being "horrible" and Ranka being "hysteric".

Btw. Just want to remind you that you wanted others to have the talk about the slap!!!!
__________________
Born the same day as Satoshi Urushihara... Ill fated?
Father Hentai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-04-30, 09:42   Link #1317
magnuskn
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Age: 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Father Hentai View Post
But isn't it allowed to hug a friend to say "I'm sorry for what I just did but I had to bring you back to senses"?
That would have been a much more appropiate reaction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Father Hentai View Post
Btw. Just want to remind you that you wanted others to have the talk about the slap!!!!
Sure, others are talking. Doesn't mean I cannot add my own opinion.
__________________
magnuskn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-04-30, 09:50   Link #1318
karice67
さっく♥ゆうきゃん♥ほそやん
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: back in the land down under...
Quote:
Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
Also, as Beto said, it is quite possible that Sheryl was dying at the moment. Actually, I think it is very likely. Sheryls hair greying out was a physical phenomenon, after all.
I think it all comes down to interpretation in the end. Compare: is Sheryl dying because she gave up? Or did she give up because her death came on right at that point?

Because Sheryl said "I'm sorry" just before her hair went dark, I'm inclined to say it's the former.

But as I said, that's just my interpretation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Father Hentai View Post
But isn't it allowed to hug a friend to say "I'm sorry for what I just did but I had to bring you back to senses"?
Yoshino/Kawamori definitely should have added something like that

Quote:
Originally Posted by Father Hentai View Post
And going back to the sitution in episode 20 about being hysteric. The scene where Alto had Sheryl in his arms just broke her heart and the same boy asks her to sing? I think this should give some thoughts about Alto being "horrible" and Ranka being "hysteric".
THIS. DEFINITELY.
__________________

You must free yourself from that illusion,
from the illusion that a story must have a beginning and an end.


"No, you are not entitled to your opinion... You are only entitled to what you can argue for.
- Patrick Stokes


karice's random translations (interviews, audio commentaries, manga, radio shows etc etc)

karice67 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-04-30, 10:30   Link #1319
Yot-chan
Minmay Guard
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Tsk-tsk. Y'all are forgetting THE most important scene in the whole episode, where the greatest character in the history of anime finally awakens.



Anyone who denies that Nanase is greatest character ever is merely jealous of her all-around magnificence.
Yot-chan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-04-30, 10:36   Link #1320
magnuskn
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Age: 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
I think it all comes down to interpretation in the end. Compare: is Sheryl dying because she gave up? Or did she give up because her death came on right at that point?

Because Sheryl said "I'm sorry" just before her hair went dark, I'm inclined to say it's the former.

But as I said, that's just my interpretation.
It's also quite valid. As you say, it's a difference of interpretation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
THIS. DEFINITELY.
Oh, come on. Although it might have developed into something more if Ranka hadn't barged into the situation, Alto actually was just giving Sheryl some much needed moral support. Ranka broke her own heart, through bad interpretation of the situation on every level.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
Anyone who denies that Nanase is greatest character ever is merely jealous of her all-around magnificence.
Is it just me, or does that picture look as if she lost some baby fat in her facial area? ^^
__________________
magnuskn is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
macross frontier, re-watch

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 16:38.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.