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Old 2011-05-01, 02:31   Link #1361
magnuskn
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Originally Posted by Thess View Post
^
I don't know if Sheryl only thought about the "pity" thing. Sheryl fully gave up her future because she was dying (and probably didn't want to burden Alto's future). She wanted to go with a "bang". Even if Alto loved her, it was over before it began. She had bigger concerns (like the war and also saving Ranka's life...). They were already "playing" lovers (Sheryl's words), so it would be the circumstances surrounding them that forced her to end it (to Alto's protests).
<sigh> I knew I should have added an "in the romantic aspect of her life" somewhere to my post. Yeah, of course Sheryl also had other motivations, I was however comparing her feelings in the romantic aspect to Altos, so I left out all the selfless "sacrifice myself for Frontier" stuff.

And, yes, I think the aspect of "pity or not" fundamentally goes back to the romance aspect of the show.
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Old 2011-05-01, 02:44   Link #1362
karice67
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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
You'll have to tell me how else he could have reacted, then. Faking that, no, he really loved Ranka, to get her heart "unbroken"? Telling her that it's okay if she doesn't sing, when Frontier gets burned down around them?
Er...something like "I'm sorry to ask when you're so upset..."...? At least something to show that he'd actually noticed and cared that she was upset...

=====

And nope, I'm not talking about the pity issue. I personally don't think it was pity...even though Sheryl started believing that. I don't think Alto himself thought about it that much (edit: at least not on that day/night itself).

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Originally Posted by Thess View Post
Is this what you mean, karice?
Nope. (Hm...are you analysing Sheryl mostly in 23 and 24? Because my reading of the dressing room scene is also slightly different to the whole 'going out with a bang' or even the 'bring Ranka back so that you can be really honest' interpretations...)

To try and make what I'm getting at a bit clearer, I'll just post the relevant parts of what I said before again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
Take the controversial scene in 22 and try considering the wider context within which it takes place. Incidentally, Nakamura Yuuichi was 'bashed' by the cast after that scene, even by Endou Aya (who has made it very clear that she would have liked to see more AxS (i.e. that she approved, anyway)). My question is: what interpretation did they come to that made them 'bash' Nakamura and Alto for that?
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Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
Last tip for now (I'd like to see if others can get at it before I say any more): it's a war situation.
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Old 2011-05-01, 02:52   Link #1363
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Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
Er...something like "I'm sorry to ask when you're so upset..."...? At least something to show that he'd actually noticed and cared that she was upset...
Not seeing it. He said "please" four times in the course of his appeal. He appealed to her protecting Frontier, but she clearly freaked out because she was relating it all back to her own crush on Alto. That he lost his bearings for a few seconds when she began to have her hysterical breakdown because she did not want to protect her home anymore is understandable and after that Sheryl took over talking with Ranka.

He wasn't cold to Ranka and he was honest to her... I don't think he could nor should have done more than that.
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Old 2011-05-01, 03:47   Link #1364
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^
Those 'pleases' aren't quite as strong in Japanese as they might sound in English.

Besides that, I've said all I wanted to on the subject, and I don't think we'll even come to an agreement on it. I won't absolve Ranka for being...well, pathetic, to put it bluntly. But I won't absolve Alto for being KY (i.e. for having low EQ) either. To be honest, I don't see him saying anything like that either, it's just not in his character to even notice emotional issues. And that's a flaw I think he has to fix.  
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Old 2011-05-01, 04:29   Link #1365
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Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
^
Those 'pleases' aren't quite as strong in Japanese as they might sound in English.

Besides that, I've said all I wanted to on the subject, and I don't think we'll even come to an agreement on it. I won't absolve Ranka for being...well, pathetic, to put it bluntly. But I won't absolve Alto for being KY (i.e. for having low EQ) either. To be honest, I don't see him saying anything like that either, it's just not in his character to even notice emotional issues. And that's a flaw I think he has to fix.  
I think he has some issues with expressing his emotions ( other than yelling "Yaaaah!" in the cockpit, of course ) and with dealing with the emotions of others, but he does come through in the moments that matter. I much prefer that he was honest towards Ranka in ep 20, rather than faking some sort of emotional connection which was never there.
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Old 2011-05-01, 08:31   Link #1366
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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
You'll have to tell me how else he could have reacted, then. Faking that, no, he really loved Ranka, to get her heart "unbroken"? Telling her that it's okay if she doesn't sing, when Frontier gets burned down around them?
No, but before asking he could have explained that this "mess" was a mistake. Alto was focussed on fighting that he seems to forgotten to talk about "them" (Sheryl x Alto x Ranka relationship) first. It's not wrong to talk if it was a mistake, isn't it?

I agree with you that Frontier should not be burned down but on the other side, the way Alto has asked Ranka to sing "for the city and the people" just emotionally overran her. In episode 19 she figured out that it was not for the people she was singing. It was for the love for one person. That is her truth behind her power of singing. And then Alto asking for the opposite... it has a bade taste if you ask for my opinion.
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Old 2011-05-01, 09:03   Link #1367
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Originally Posted by Father Hentai View Post
No, but before asking he could have explained that this "mess" was a mistake. Alto was focussed on fighting that he seems to forgotten to talk about "them" (Sheryl x Alto x Ranka relationship) first. It's not wrong to talk if it was a mistake, isn't it?

I agree with you that Frontier should not be burned down but on the other side, the way Alto has asked Ranka to sing "for the city and the people" just emotionally overran her. In episode 19 she figured out that it was not for the people she was singing. It was for the love for one person. That is her truth behind her power of singing. And then Alto asking for the opposite... it has a bad taste if you ask for my opinion.
Whilst I agree with you that it'd have been better if he'd said something, you can't blame Alto for not knowing that the problem at that time was that Ranka had realised that she wanted to sing only for him. Michel's advice should have clued him into what Ranka might have felt from seeing the two of them on the roof, but hearing "she's singing just for you" from Michel isn't the same as hearing it from Ranka herself,
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Old 2011-05-01, 12:32   Link #1368
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Gyaah... so behind. Going to just comment on a few things quickly for now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Father Hentai View Post
But isn't it allowed to hug a friend to say "I'm sorry for what I just did but I had to bring you back to senses"?
That would have been a much more appropiate reaction.
I think if they handled that scene right they could have foregone the slap entirely. A good strong hug from out of the blue could probably shock Sheryl into listening to what Ranka had to say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Swampstorm View Post
Actually, that scene itself shows how fatigued she is. Think back to episodes 18-20 - she's collapsed several times before, and that was simply from everyday exertions. In episodes 24-25, she's been singing almost continuously since the battle started. She's both physically and mentally exhausted.
One of my nitpicks about this episode is that Sheryl seems fine as soon as the bacteria move to her stomach... they may no longer be poisoning her, but she really ought to need a bit of time to recover her strength after all the damage they'd already done.

Karice, this may sound a bit lazy, but can you just explain what your thoughts on Episodes 22 and 24 are rather than trying to make us guess?

Various things I could note about Episode 25 itself, but for now I'm just going to stick with one thing I noticed during this particular rewatch. You know the scene with all the various secondary characters standing together in front of the Quarter just before the credits? Anyone think the three guys Elmo is standing with look awfully familiar?
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Old 2011-05-01, 17:40   Link #1369
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Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
Whilst I agree with you that it'd have been better if he'd said something, you can't blame Alto for not knowing that the problem at that time was that Ranka had realised that she wanted to sing only for him. Michel's advice should have clued him into what Ranka might have felt from seeing the two of them on the roof, but hearing "she's singing just for you" from Michel isn't the same as hearing it from Ranka herself,
I did not mean to blame Alto for not knowing the constellation. It was just a reminder for the people here why Ranka was so upset that he asked such a request just after she was shocked about him holding Sheryl. Just a note on this stupid triangler scene. Without this happening, the small vajra swarm would have attacked and the story would end up different with the only remaining scenario that President Glass would be shot by an assassin.
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Old 2011-05-01, 18:42   Link #1370
karice67
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Originally Posted by Darthtabby View Post
Karice, this may sound a bit lazy, but can you just explain what your thoughts on Episodes 22 and 24 are rather than trying to make us guess?
====

For 24, SS13 pointed it out last week:
Quote:
Originally Posted by SS13 View Post
Okay, Thoughts on 24:
...
- Correction to earlier: Sheryl DOES see herself as sacrificial lamb. She resigned to her fate and just wants that other have something from it.
...
- The novel shows it clearly: Sheryl IS ready for the fact that after her death Alto will be with Ranka. And she prefers it to Alto being dead or unhappy. This again indicates her charachter greatness.
i.e. Putting aside what she wanted to do for the fleet, Sheryl was thinking primarily about Alto's happiness - she wasn't really reflecting about the possibility that 'it's Ranka that Alto loves' per se. I guess I was a little bemused because, in my opinion, this is the most flattering reading of Sheryl's character, but everyone seemed to be focused on about how she misread Alto's declaration at the end of 23. I contend that, to Sheryl at this point, that's far less important than his happiness. 'If you truly love someone, you want them to be happy' and all that.

So in my mind, the reason she stops him from saying anything (even though she might have guessed that it's likely to be what she wanted to hear), it'd hurt because she knows - or believes, if you will - that she'll have to leave him soon, quite possibly during the battle.

p.s. Kawamori's commentary on this episode in 2059: memories is basically that you have to look for the deeper meaning behind their conversation in this scene, rather than just taking the words at face value.

====

My question for episode 22 was just an exercise. I just want to see what (shippers) come up with when they take a step back from the romance aspect - i.e. you don't have to disregard it completely, just be aware of the wider context of the situation and how that may affect what happened that night. I'm not asking anyone to change their interpretations, just to be more fully aware of other readings of the scene.

Would it help if I say what my present interpretation of the scene is?
I think it's highly probable that they slept together, but as an AltoxSheryl fan, I'd prefer that they didn't - and no, it's got nothing to do with the 'was it pity?' interpretation that some people would go on about. Hence, I'll take Yoshino's evasiveness anytime: only Alto and Sheryl know what really happened that night.
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Last edited by karice67; 2011-05-02 at 01:31.
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Old 2011-05-01, 18:43   Link #1371
erfine
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Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
Er...something like "I'm sorry to ask when you're so upset..."...? At least something to show that he'd actually noticed and cared that she was upset...
I heart Ranka to little bits but I feel that the last thing that she needs in that scene is to be coddled even more . She's a bit of a little princess if you know what I mean (but we love her for it).

I get that she's had a bad day. I really do. She's given a parade in her honor with the entire colony waiting around on her arrival. Her pet ran away. The ice cream store didn't stock her favorite flavor. And just when you think things couldn't get any worse, her future bf has to go ahead and save some stupid terminally ill girl, whose career she's pounded into the dust, from faceplanting into the ground. It's all too much to bear!

No, the this is the one and only time that Alto ought to be more like Alto and less like Michael and Ozma.

See, Ranka got everything that she'd ever envied about Sheryl's lifestyle on a silver platter, but she had to sign a deal with the devil to do it. The "hard knocks" of ep 19-21 was really the only way that she could break from that trap and be true to herself again. A necessary evil.
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Old 2011-05-01, 18:53   Link #1372
karice67
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Originally Posted by erfine View Post
I heart Ranka to little bits but I feel that the last thing that she needs in that scene is to be coddled even more . She's a bit of a little princess if you know what I mean (but we love her for it).
I'm not actually talking about what Ranka needs, but rather about how KY Alto is. Perhaps, if he'd realised what you've just said (i.e. that he shouldn't be coddling her anymore) then I'd agree with you, but I don't think he has.

As I already said several times, I'm NOT defending Ranka in this scene. But I'm also not as forgiving of Alto as most people seem to be.
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Old 2011-05-01, 20:12   Link #1373
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Originally Posted by Father Hentai View Post
I did not mean to blame Alto for not knowing the constellation. It was just a reminder for the people here why Ranka was so upset that he asked such a request just after she was shocked about him holding Sheryl. Just a note on this stupid triangler scene. Without this happening, the small vajra swarm would have attacked and the story would end up different with the only remaining scenario that President Glass would be shot by an assassin.
But again that's not Alto's but Ranka's its Ranka's fault that she came to the wrong conclusion and when she saw Alto holding up Sheryl. Alto cannot be blamed for neither returning Ranka's feelings nor can he blamed for not letting her down, because Ranka never confessed to him. She never told him why she was sad, so neither the constellation or the situation itself can be blamed on Alto, the blame lies solely with Ranka.

Ranka has to confess her feelings to Alto, NOT THEIR FRIENDS BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT RANKA NOR ARE THEY HER REPRESENTATIVE.

I remember something to this happened in Bakemonogatari and even its main character as nice as he was admitted that it wasn't his fault for not letting her down because she never confessed to him, nor was he obligated to return her feelings.
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Old 2011-05-01, 21:33   Link #1374
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I have three words: "suspension of disbelief."

Well, I enjoyed watching this again with everyone. It is a fun series to watch and you can't beat music and mecha action. I plan on doing a re-watch of the original series over the summer, so keep a look out for the thread.

Special thanks to Karice for all of the commentary stuff. You should make a blog for it so future audiences can read it.
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Old 2011-05-02, 17:48   Link #1375
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Well, Some thoughts on Final episode.

- Sheryl's breakdown is totally understandable. She just thought Alto was lost and this took her last power. Also the network surely affected her as well (remember - fold network
- Macross Quarter arrives just in time to Liberate Brera and save Alto - AND to unmask Battle Galaxy.
- Grace once again -one-ups Mishima. Since she killed all his agents, nobody is here to protect him now.
- Ghosts are awesome fighters, way superior to VF-17X.
- By the way, it seems NUNS REALLY cut corners - after the VF-19 programm was cancelled, they haven't bought any thing new for nearly 20 years! No wonder they had such problems with Vajra:
- NOW we know how Vajra were able to combat unmanned Frontier fighters - they were trained to do so by Galaxy. Most likely the interference field was established by Galaxy as well.
- Galaxy REALLY is superior technologically. Ghosts, VF-27, Battle Galaxy. Guess corporate executives that financed it really were wealthy. We also understand how determined Frontier had to be to survive such an assault.
- Galaxy is still hidden, which means... They'll be back! For more! AND it's confirmed Grace wasn't alone... so :
- Interesting possibility: could it be that Galaxy leaders intended to hack and overtake Grace's network once it was established?
- Again, Brain bug : If Vajra network is NOT designed with queen controlling everything tightly, how does Grace manage to turn it into such a network?
- Vajra turning pink and going berserk is very artfully done. We really see the danger here.
- Once again, songs save the day.
- Interesting parallel : just like humans considered Vajra brainless, can it be that those fold batcteria are intelligent and just didn't understand that human brain is not the best place for them?
- Ranka slapping Sheryl DOES have an effect but, this really comes uncalled for. The irony is that the slap wasn't about healing at first. The point of slap was: "Get a hold of yourself, just because YOU are going to die the others don't have to, so get up and sing!" And in the process, Sheryl got healed .
- The healing was more "lead by example" than any special capabilities. By connecting with bacteria (viruses?) in Sheryl's brain, those in Ranka's body probably "explained" to them where they had to live, if the wanted their host to live longer.
- There is a fine theory that says that Vajra lost their brain as adjustment to fold bacteria - no brain, no weak point. If that's true can it REALLY be that Ranka's brain is smaller?
- Ranka STILL is not at on par with Sheryl. The slap was discussed earlier as was "help me". BN even her demeanor after that is still childish.
- The dual Sheryl - Ranka song was indeed wonderful.
- One wonders about all that Vajra attacking other places. Did they left with the queen?


Regarding idols:

Japanese Idol Singers are most like Disney Child Stars - selecting as much for looks as for ability, groomed to be stars, pushed up by advertisment more than anything else, adored on celebrity principle (if everybody watches it I will too), and then discarded after a few short years. Sheryl's fate in this is actually typical, and her comeback is what's really a wonder. One reason for it being possible was that Frontier is more traditional than Galaxy, so Sheryl was able to reach a bigger, more faithful fanbase with charity concerts, and then Ranka left and she got the opening again. For any girl that becmes an idol there are 10+ that don't despite being just as good. And of course idol singers are lead to believe they made it on their own, only learning the truth when they are discarded.

As for Ranka and Elmo, Elmo doesn 't have power of Grace. He's got contacts, but little money.

Some points:

Quote:
- What exactly was Bilrers endgame plan here? Did he expect Minmay to be on the Vajra planet?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilrer
Fold Network will Transcend space and Time
With network in place, he hoped to be able to contact Minmay in the past, probably rescue her from Megaroad 1 to Frontier.

Quote:
Also, as Beto said, it is quite possible that Sheryl was dying at the moment. Actually, I think it is very likely. Sheryls hair greying out was a physical phenomenon, after all.
Quote:
I think it all comes down to interpretation in the end. Compare: is Sheryl dying because she gave up? Or did she give up because her death came on right at that point? Because Sheryl said "I'm sorry" just before her hair went dark, I'm inclined to say it's the former.
It's both. The point is , her BRAIN is under negative effects from bacteria. She is fighting not to lose consciousness - and losing. It was only her willpower that got her this far, but now she exhausted this after Alto's near death.She simply has no will left, but this is in itself stems from bacteria as much as from despair.


By the way, Kawamori outright said Alto should have died. What does thsi tells us about the movie?


more later...
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Old 2011-05-04, 15:32   Link #1376
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Quote:
- Why exactly destroying Breras harmonica is symbolic for Ranka getting out of Graces influence is a question for the ages...
It's not symbolic at all! The harmonica was the thing that mind controlled Ranka, but though the Power of Frendship and Love (TM)it was overloaded and broken.


Quote:
- Wow, they should have used Battle Frontier a bit more prominently throughout the series.
Well, they did mention in the beginning that it takes a lot to get NUNS off their asses Guess it took even more to get Battle Frontier going...
Generally Macross is not a military fan. In all shows we see that military higher-ups are not really competent.
First they forego VF-19 in favor of V-9 ghost (which promptly betrays them), and the then don't rearm their forces until 15 years later - they still are stuck with Vf-17 even though military companies altready churn VF-25

Quote:
- Although an explanation of the Vajras behaviour was nice and needed, I still think that they were the worst antagonists the Frontier franchise has had. This may come down to personal preferences, of course.
Well how else? a simple Zentraedi-2 solution (like in Macross 7) wouldn't have the same effect. New villains must be in some ways stronger than the old, or else what't the point of them?

I mean sure a stronger Zentraedi group coulbe be invented, bujt this wouldn't be quite as interesting ) And btw., we DO get this - in the middle, but compare ep. 13 to ep 25., for example - which is better?

But the main Villain here seem to be the Galaxy conspiracy, and THAT
thread is dangling. Will they, or some other cyborgs, be the 30 -anniversary antagonists?


OK, some further points.



- Sheryl'sx healing is a bit rushed, but I think the point wss that with V-Infection moved out, she simply got her willpower back. Brain is more sesilient than, say lung or vocal cords, so if only brain ws strained, this kinda makes sence
- Alto is clearly now considered one of the bes pilots - why else would Klan leave Michel's gun to him?
- One wonders what will happen to Brera - surely he helped in the end, but betrayal is betrayal, and he may face court-martial
- And then there is Ranka, who may face charges, too.
Spoiler for Comparison:

- Somehow even NUNS know that SMS is betters, since they immediately hear to Wilder
- Some random thought: What will happen to Alto's infection? Did they manage to cure him, or did the link rendered his infection harmless, too?
- One wonders how Klan feels about all this, having lost Michel, she is the loser here. But then maybe she can find her love from the Zentraedi who prefer to live macronized?
- By the way, Frontier is in for bummer with this. Those forcefully micronized Zentraedi are sure unhappy now and will be a problem in a future.
- The Explanation about Vajra feels somewhat off, but the main point is explained:_ they were interested in Ranka, and were goaded by Galaxy into attacking Frontier.
- One wonders though what became of the Vajra: They left the that planet, but what about Vajra in other locations (like those we see attacking, and many else)? Doid ALL the Vajra left except Ai-Kun and if yes, where? Or did they just abandoned this one planet and resettled on some other planet in vicinity? And will we run into them in 30th anniversary (very unlikely) or later (at least possible)?
- By the way, the Vajra attack scene (when they go overdrive and appear in many places) was utterly terrifyin. But on the other hand, Frontier is also a little backward technology, so...
- This is another fine point. At first, seeing Frontier so copying today (trams, no implants etc) seemed dumb after Macross 7, but in hindsight, that's some deeper point: Frontier may be better prepared for the whole ordeal precisely because it clings to traditions and doesn't rely on newest technology.
- Though the early implication that technology didn't save Galaxy is obviously wrong
- Interesting tidbit: In episode 13, we had that Zentran rebel claiming "Universe is not big enough for two races!", One wonders what he would say now that three races (at least) are dividing it: Humans, Zentraedi and Vajra...
- Once again Frontier shows us its idealistic, yet not wide-eyed nature: sure, a few superbaddies can force all other into fight, but once they are exposed and punished, all other will happily make peace. Klan even seems to forgive Ranka for what she did.
-Yes, this challenge on Ranka's side is utterly stupid. As I mentioned earlier, the most likely reason Alto didn't told her off was that he didn't want to upset her with Vjara still around
- More interesting will be the career challenge: Sheryl recovered her popularity on Frontier, but what on other ships? Or mabe she is still popular there (but given what I mentioned earlier about idol singers, this means unlikely ) Ranka, OTOH, is seen by many as traitor, and it's unclear wheter other Ships kno about her at all. But then the whole Idol singer mechanics constantly need fresh faces, and here Ranka is in advantage.
- One also wonders about Sheryl's financial situation. Did she lost all her wealth with Galaxy, or is part of it stored in other accounts? If so, she may decide she has enough and settle for smaller stages (now that she finds that nice) and leave the Idol position to Ranka?
- Regarding Sheryl's charachterisation. I remember to read somewhere that in early drafts, Sheryl really was a haughty, arrogant diva (like Miranda here), whom Ranka had to overthrow on her way to stardom. But we can be very happy this was changed, as the way it is played in the series is WAY better. In fact, Macross F is utterly honest here by showing how such "overthrowing" is total crap.
- This is partially why Ranka comes as immature - she cannot live up to THAT Sheryl. The latter's charachter growth means that Ranka's development is constantly outshadowed. Mind you, she IS molre mature than in the beginning... but she still can't quite reach up to Sheryl.


Quote:
Ranka's tv counterpart was just handled horribly
Um, No (see above). She is weaker charachter than Sheryl, but that's OK - her wide eyed idealism is as mach a power as Sheryl's realism and readiness to accept reality.

Sheryl through late series represents accepting tragedies and living with them (her own, but also Michael etc. ) Ranka represents Hope that despite all bad things, everything will turn out fine. In fact, this is the point behind their medley. The Songstress of Hope and The Songstress of (despair) Reality are reunited - and their synergy gives other the power to win.

Finishing part later.
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Old 2011-05-04, 15:49   Link #1377
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Originally Posted by SS13 View Post
It's not symbolic at all! The harmonica was the thing that mind controlled Ranka, but though the Power of Frendship and Love (TM)it was overloaded and broken.
That begs the questions: Why the hell was Breras harmonica capable of mind-control?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SS13 View Post
Well, they did mention in the beginning that it takes a lot to get NUNS off their asses Guess it took even more to get Battle Frontier going...
Generally Macross is not a military fan. In all shows we see that military higher-ups are not really competent.
First they forego VF-19 in favor of V-9 ghost (which promptly betrays them), and the then don't rearm their forces until 15 years later - they still are stuck with Vf-17 even though military companies altready churn VF-25
Given that Max Jenius used to transform his version of "Battle 7" on the turn of a dime, I think that they really could have used Battle Frontier at least a bit more.

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Well how else? a simple Zentraedi-2 solution (like in Macross 7) wouldn't have the same effect. New villains must be in some ways stronger than the old, or else what't the point of them?

I mean sure a stronger Zentraedi group coulbe be invented, bujt this wouldn't be quite as interesting ) And btw., we DO get this - in the middle, but compare ep. 13 to ep 25., for example - which is better?
Power was never the problem. "Being an interesting antagonist" was what I felt was absent from the Vajra.

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But the main Villain here seem to be the Galaxy conspiracy, and THAT
thread is dangling. Will they, or some other cyborgs, be the 30 -anniversary antagonists?
I've been saying that for three years now...


OK, some further points.

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- Some random thought: What will happen to Alto's infection? Did they manage to cure him, or did the link rendered his infection harmless, too?
You mean the one he got through all that sex with Sheryl? Most likely he took the early treatments which Luca mentioned in ep 22.

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- One wonders how Klan feels about all this, having lost Michel, she is the loser here. But then maybe she can find her love from the Zentraedi who prefer to live macronized?
I am sure she can join Altos harem, which the Ranka fans were so happy to talk about back then.

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Originally Posted by SS13 View Post
- By the way, Frontier is in for bummer with this. Those forcefully micronized Zentraedi are sure unhappy now and will be a problem in a future.
Is there any reason to suspect that they cannot be macronized anymore after Frontier has landed on their new home planet?

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One wonders though what became of the Vajra: They left the that planet, but what about Vajra in other locations (like those we see attacking, and many else)? Doid ALL the Vajra left except Ai-Kun and if yes, where? Or did they just abandoned this one planet and resettled on some other planet in vicinity? And will we run into them in 30th anniversary (very unlikely) or later (at least possible)?
They are either still on the planet or left. It's left unclear.

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-Yes, this challenge on Ranka's side is utterly stupid. As I mentioned earlier, the most likely reason Alto didn't told her off was that he didn't want to upset her with Vjara still around
Yeah, another Vajra rampage could really ruin that festive mood.

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- More interesting will be the career challenge: Sheryl recovered her popularity on Frontier, but what on other ships? Or mabe she is still popular there (but given what I mentioned earlier about idol singers, this means unlikely ) Ranka, OTOH, is seen by many as traitor, and it's unclear wheter other Ships kno about her at all. But then the whole Idol singer mechanics constantly need fresh faces, and here Ranka is in advantage.
Obviously that is what the movies are for... a good PR campaign to redeem Ranka.

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- One also wonders about Sheryl's financial situation. Did she lost all her wealth with Galaxy, or is part of it stored in other accounts? If so, she may decide she has enough and settle for smaller stages (now that she finds that nice) and leave the Idol position to Ranka?
I don't think we'll have to worry that Sheryl will be broke for long. She can always crush with her boyfriend.

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- Regarding Sheryl's charachterisation. I remember to read somewhere that in early drafts, Sheryl really was a haughty, arrogant diva (like Miranda here), whom Ranka had to overthrow on her way to stardom.
Unless I am mistaken, that looks like you got the info from the BS liner notes from Shaloom.
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Old 2011-05-04, 18:04   Link #1378
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That begs the questions: Why the hell was Breras harmonica capable of mind-control?
Because Grace did it? Why else would she push him to give that harmonica to Ranka?
This open a frightening possibility. Typically mind control, in Sci-Fi setting, requires implants (compare Borg). But what if on Galaxy, there is a technology to mind control somebody just by a control device being close to the brain (after all, Brera's device was also partially outside - and an older model)? Just like those helmets from Macross 7? Now That would be a threat!


Quote:
Given that Max Jenius used to transform his version of "Battle 7" on the turn of a dime, I think that they really could have used Battle Frontier at least a bit more.
He was also superior to Milia (who was only "Major") back then. And he did it on his own accord, rather than on Milia's wish. It seems UN reorganized since then, with The civilian colony leader now being in control (symbolized by title "President"). Now NUNS isn't responsible for everything... and feels responsible for nothing unless ordered by military higher-ups.

But there is a valid point here. NUNS in early episodes sucked totally, putting only a couple pf light units on display. Can it be that they had peace for so long (or alternatively fought with Ghost drones for so long) they got out of habit of actual warfare? It's almost as if Frontier military was massively reinforced during series - and given that Sheryl can travel from ship to ship in relatively short time, it isn't out of bounds.

As for Battle Galaxy in-story, it WAS used in Frontier-near battles, except the very first, where they probably had iit not operable at the time (as above.) In Episodes 14, 18, 20, and 24-25 it was used. And in ep 7 or so it would be too dangerous to send it away from main island, so... But a couple more times usage would be good. Generally it's a shame it only got 25 episodes - it had material for 30-35.

Quote:

Is there any reason to suspect that they cannot be macronized anymore after Frontier has landed on their new home planet?
All structures suitable for macronized Zenraedi were on Island 3, which Leon blew up by DE in episode 21. Most macronization chamber were there, too. So yes, macronizing anybody but some necessary workforce anytime soon is out of question.

Quote:
Obviously that is what the movies are for... a good PR campaign to redeem Ranka.
+1

And generally put down everybody else too. Almost any person is portrayed worse in movies than in series, Grace being exception: Brera, Howard Glass, Leon, Alto, Sheryl

And generally the movie differs from series precisely here. The series proposes the idea that most people (and non-people - see below) are reasonably good, even if selfish and can resolve conflichts peacefully - unless provoked by some very evil villains. As I wrote earlier Frontier makes a point to refute the claim that "The univers isn't big for two races" - it is , even for three.
Spoiler for In contrast:


Quote:
Power was never the problem. "Being an interesting antagonist" was what I felt was absent from the Vajra.
Well, Vajra ARE interesting in a way. Most times when Bugs are presented, they are just evil irredeemable bastards to shoot (compare Starship Troopers or StarCraft). When they are not (Species 8472 for example) they are mostly Humanlike in everything except appearance. The idea of an antagonist which is totally different from humans in both appearance and mindset, and yet reasonable (so when Grace is removed, we get some sort of peace agreement, at least for now). This is rarely presented in Sci-Fi, and when yes, it often leads to tragedy ("Ender's Game" comes to mind, and also "I Am Legend") So this was interesting, even though the seires never went deep enough to explore all the possibilities.
But compared with "Protodeviln", Vajra are quite and interesting and enigmatic antagonist.

In general this is a worthy successor of original Macross.
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Old 2011-05-04, 18:12   Link #1379
DragoZERO
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I have to watch Macross Zero again. Was that thing related to the Vajra??
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Old 2011-05-05, 01:59   Link #1380
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Originally Posted by SS13 View Post
Because Grace did it? Why else would she push him to give that harmonica to Ranka?
This open a frightening possibility. Typically mind control, in Sci-Fi setting, requires implants (compare Borg). But what if on Galaxy, there is a technology to mind control somebody just by a control device being close to the brain (after all, Brera's device was also partially outside - and an older model)? Just like those helmets from Macross 7? Now That would be a threat!
I'm going with "handwavium" again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SS13 View Post
He was also superior to Milia (who was only "Major") back then. And he did it on his own accord, rather than on Milia's wish. It seems UN reorganized since then, with The civilian colony leader now being in control (symbolized by title "President"). Now NUNS isn't responsible for everything... and feels responsible for nothing unless ordered by military higher-ups.

But there is a valid point here. NUNS in early episodes sucked totally, putting only a couple pf light units on display. Can it be that they had peace for so long (or alternatively fought with Ghost drones for so long) they got out of habit of actual warfare? It's almost as if Frontier military was massively reinforced during series - and given that Sheryl can travel from ship to ship in relatively short time, it isn't out of bounds.

As for Battle Galaxy in-story, it WAS used in Frontier-near battles, except the very first, where they probably had iit not operable at the time (as above.) In Episodes 14, 18, 20, and 24-25 it was used. And in ep 7 or so it would be too dangerous to send it away from main island, so... But a couple more times usage would be good. Generally it's a shame it only got 25 episodes - it had material for 30-35.
Well, my point actually was "Couldn't they have used Battle Frontier a bit more in the series". ^^

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Originally Posted by SS13 View Post
All structures suitable for macronized Zenraedi were on Island 3, which Leon blew up by DE in episode 21. Most macronization chamber were there, too. So yes, macronizing anybody but some necessary workforce anytime soon is out of question.
Since they managed to micronize Klan in ep 25, I think we can safely assume that there still is equipment left.

[QUOTE=SS13;3599484]And generally the movie differs from series precisely here. The series proposes the idea that most people (and non-people - see below) are reasonably good, even if selfish and can resolve conflichts peacefully - unless provoked by some very evil villains. As I wrote earlier Frontier makes a point to refute the claim that "The univers isn't big for two races" - it is , even for three.
Spoiler for In contrast:


Well, until I've seen the movie, I'll reserve judgement on those characterizations and I think the series introduced "but we can get all along!" very late in the series ( in regards to the Vajra ). But in essence you are right about the series.

[QUOTE=SS13;3599484]Well, Vajra ARE interesting in a way. Most times when Bugs are presented, they are just evil irredeemable bastards to shoot (compare Starship Troopers or StarCraft). When they are not (Species 8472 for example) they are mostly Humanlike in everything except appearance. The idea of an antagonist which is totally different from humans in both appearance and mindset, and yet reasonable (so when Grace is removed, we get some sort of peace agreement, at least for now). This is rarely presented in Sci-Fi, and when yes, it often leads to tragedy ("Ender's Game" comes to mind, and also "I Am Legend") So this was interesting, even though the seires never went deep enough to explore all the possibilities.
But compared with "Protodeviln", Vajra are quite and interesting and enigmatic antagonist.[/SPOILER]

Actually, I like the Protodevlin more, since they had a personality. Faceless antagonists like the Vajra bore me to tears.

Also, the Zerg in Starcraft have those amusing Cerebrates and the Overmind. And let's not forget Kerrigan.

I think the "implacable enemy who cannot be reasoned with" doesn't work too well for a long-term series. The Zerg actually have a personaliy through their leaders. The Tyranids from Warhammer 40k are an implacable and unknowable enemy, but they are not the sole antagonists of that universe, but only one menace to your existance. In Frontier it also were the people behind the scenes of Galaxy which were presented as interesting antagonists.

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I have to watch Macross Zero again. Was that thing related to the Vajra??
The earrings.
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