AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Macross

Notices

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 2011-05-05, 20:01   Link #1381
SS13
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Quote:
Actually, I like the Protodevlin more, since they had a personality. Faceless antagonists like the Vajra bore me to tears.
Well this is the point Protodevlin are typical "Human-like nonhumans" variety. They may look differently, but under this they are just humans, which means that the plot becomes very predictable.

The catch is precisely that they are faceless, but not just evil forces, which makes the struggle to find an understanding with them all the more fascinating. And come to think of it, didn't Ai-Kun count as "face"? He even stayed behind when the Queen left!



Quote:
I have to watch Macross Zero again.
+1 Lets revatch THIS next!
SS13 is offline  
Old 2011-05-06, 03:50   Link #1382
magnuskn
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Age: 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by SS13 View Post
Well this is the point Protodevlin are typical "Human-like nonhumans" variety. They may look differently, but under this they are just humans, which means that the plot becomes very predictable.

The catch is precisely that they are faceless, but not just evil forces, which makes the struggle to find an understanding with them all the more fascinating. And come to think of it, didn't Ai-Kun count as "face"? He even stayed behind when the Queen left!
Not really. Making "Squeak squeak" sounds and looking cute is not what I'd call much of a personality.

The problem was that "struggling to understand them" was only introduced very late in the series... basically as an afterthought.
__________________
magnuskn is offline  
Old 2011-05-06, 15:48   Link #1383
Thess
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
I don't think it was an "afterthought", considering the existence of Ai-Kun is an anvil sized hint. It's like calling Sheryl's illness an afterthought because only it became important in the latter episodes, but the hints were placed earlier.

It's Macross, I think it's a given that every single time a new alien species appear, the power of music would build bridges of understanding.
__________________

"Who would understand you after I die? Who else would march forward by your side?"
Thess is offline  
Old 2011-05-06, 16:09   Link #1384
magnuskn
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Age: 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thess View Post
I don't think it was an "afterthought", considering the existence of Ai-Kun is an anvil sized hint. It's like calling Sheryl's illness an afterthought because only it became important in the latter episodes, but the hints were placed earlier.

It's Macross, I think it's a given that every single time a new alien species appear, the power of music would build bridges of understanding.
Sorry, I disagree. Making oblique hints does not substitute for real plot developments which bring the opposing force at least somewhat closer to being understandable and someone the viewer can emphatize with. In that regard, Frontier utterly failed, because other than "Oh, they couldn't understand how we functioned!", the show never bothered to build up much empathy for the Vajra. I guess them shielding the city from that final blast counts, but with all the people they killed during their repeated and deliberated rampages before that, I have difficulty just calling it water under the bridge.
__________________
magnuskn is offline  
Old 2011-05-06, 16:49   Link #1385
wisteria233
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Age: 26
I can kinda understand where Magnuskn is coming from after all the Vajra, were always shown to be aggressive, and overly so at that. To suddenly say that they could get along with humans was sudden, and felt as though it came out of no where, because Ai-kun was just one vajra, versus the many violent vajra that we had seen before.

And to make matters it was the vajra that started the conflict with Frontier, and it was consequently them that that would wipe out whole fleets, which previously weren't doing anything to them. And on top of that they all have a hive mind which means that they all think the same anyway, and if one vajra which is connected to the hive wants to kill humans then the chances were all of them wanted to do the same.
wisteria233 is offline  
Old 2011-05-07, 05:03   Link #1386
SS13
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Some final points

Quote:
- Hey, did the bacteria in Rankas stomach make a smiley face?
Why not? They are happy in Ranka, after all. More happy than in Vajra at any rate.

Quote:
- Although we only see it for a second, it's nice to see that the artists acknowledged that Sheryl now has the exact same powers as Ranka ( by which I mean we see Sheryls stomach glowing, too ).
Which is partially symbolic: remember Ranka saying that "Vajra sing with their tummies"? This means more emotinal singing, as opposed to singing from the head. Now that Sheryl also became such a singer, the bacteria react accordingly.
An interesting thought: If Sheryl becomes pregnant after that, will her child iherit the same power?

By the way, he "Ranka wedding-crashing" is not really a joke. There is background material ( but I don't remember in which continuity ) that Ranka's singing drew Vajra to the Fleet where Grace was about to be married, which resulted in Grace's bridegroom being killed and Grace being fatally injured - which necessitated Grace becoming a full-blown cyborg in the first place.


Quote:
- Rule of cool now strictly applies to everything: Sheryl and Ranka losing their virtual clothes, Alto being so rad that his aura of cool destroys his helmet glass.
Yes and the scene with Ranka and Sheryl without clothes at the end of Medley DOES have appeal. A lot. But the whole episode 25 is just one Coolness Moment after another.
On the other hand, it IS a virutaul space, so it's kinda possible.



Quote:
Its because of this why I prefer the movies over the tv series, its just better in storytelling overall.
Oh Really?? Well, iit may be more compact, but the story telling isn't better. Evebn the first movie lacks depth and clearness of the series in many places. Basically the problem is that while the shortcomoing of the series are adressed, the movie introduces new pitfalls, some far worse (The whole Galaxy competition plot).

The second movie exacerbates this culminating in the ending - whereas the series has just one unresolved thing (the triangle) - the movie resolves this, but butchers everything else - well, see the movie thread.


OK Some general thoughts why I like the series.

- Music. MUSIC. MUSIC. Frontier has extremely good songs and general music arrangements. It's simply a pleasure to just listen to series. 10/10
- Visuals. Not superstunning, but Up-to-date, and clear-looking. 8/10
- Enemies. I actually liked Vajra as enemies, more than I did like M7 ones. It is rarely that a Bug War is pulled without resorting to "Bugs are jest humans in a mask" trick. Yes, the execution couldd have been somewhat better, but the true hive mind is hard to depict (Compare Mospeada idiocy). So respect for taking such concept, and not botching it completely. 7/10
- Plot. Frontier actually has a very tightly packed plot, meaning that you can watch episode after episode without becoming bored (well, almost ) This again put it way up when compared to say, Mospeada or Gundam, but alos to Macross 7.
As I said before Macross 7 has 49 episodes, which should be compressed into 10, top, whereas Frontier has only 25 - but enough materials for at least 40. 10/10
- And finally, there is the fine balance between cynicism and idealism that the series endorses. Many series are sugar-bowl idealistic, with any attempt at realism thwarted by the plot and naive solutions being present as the only right (Sailor Moon, Wedding Peach, etc). Others are realistic... which for them means being totally cynical: any idealistic thought has to be squashed in order to accompl,ish anything (Death Note, Bokurano, Berserk) This doesn't even require a downer - the heroes sometimes win, but only by being cynical.
Macross Frontier, meanwhile, has a very balanced approach. It fully suggests that life has many cynical sides, whether it's a tech-laden life like in Galaxy, or more "traditional" like on Frontier (Ranka being expelled for participating in an official contest, WTF? And let's not remember how Sharyl was treated in ep. 18 - "where could she be now with her home gone" - who cares?" etc. etc.) Accepting harsh realities is a necessary part of donig anything useful, to yourself or other, and just "hoping for goodness" will never work.
BUT in Frontier, and that's the catch, it doesn't mean one should abandon ideals and go for jungle instincts. Upholding human values like love and friendship IS important, and in the end the only way to long-term success. Any attempt to elbow your way up will inevitabl end catastrophically (cf. Miranda, Leon, Grace...) while holding to your ideals has a good chance of ultimately working out.
This balance in being "realistic in your views andidealistic in your actions" is symbolised by Sheryl(realistic side) and Ranka (idealistic side). And just like their final victory is achieved by their union, making the world a little better can only be achieved by combination of realistic judgment and idealistic targets.
Thus the overall ipression of the seires is extremely well done 10/10.

Unfortunately, this very balance is what got so offset in the movies, which why ultimately, I liked the series much better, less stunning visuals nonwithstanding.

Lets hope that the Macross Franchise will continue - and that the next series will be as good as Frontier , or even better!

OK That's it for the revatch from my side. I think it was fun.
SS13 is offline  
Old 2011-05-07, 11:24   Link #1387
Yot-chan
Minmay Guard
*Fansubber
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Tokyo
Quote:
Originally Posted by SS13 View Post
By the way, he "Ranka wedding-crashing" is not really a joke. There is background material ( but I don't remember in which continuity ) that Ranka's singing drew Vajra to the Fleet where Grace was about to be married, which resulted in Grace's bridegroom being killed and Grace being fatally injured - which necessitated Grace becoming a full-blown cyborg in the first place.
That's in the shojo manga...not sure if it applies anywhere else.
Yot-chan is offline  
Old 2011-05-08, 06:46   Link #1388
Irisiel
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
The problem with Vajra and empathy I think started in the first episode; in the last episode, Ranka says that the only reason why Vajra attack is to get at infected songstresses and rescue them back to the hive. Yet, we have Gilliam's death. In which a Vajra is unnecessarily vicious in killing him, on top of not just grabbing Ranka and getting the hell out of there.

Had the Vajra done as Ranka believes them to do, it would have shot Gilliam and grabbed Ranka and been out of there before humans had time to regroup. Yet it insists on spending time squeezing the juices out of Gilliam's body, and then even hesitates before grabbing Ranka.

Furthermore, Vajra can see the difference between humans and their valkyries, which suggests that they can see individuality to a certain extent, or at least recognize a tiered system of threat (valkyrie + human=threat, valkyrie - human=non-threat), or the Vajra should have continued to attack Gilliam's valkyrie as it certainly would have been a larger threat than Gilliam himself.

It all boils down to feeling empathy for a totally alien race that has shown some very clear signs of psycho- or sociopathy on a near ecumenical scale (Ai-kun being the odd one out because he has been raised by people who rewards empathy and affection, which suggests some form of individuality in the Vajra themselves).

In short, I think that in an effort to hide the plot twist (Vajra are really nice people, really, Ranka said so, and she's so moe that she should know. Don't listen to that raving poltergeist named Gilliam! Or Michael, even though you totally should have listened to him when he discussed Alto's feelings!), they ended up writing inconsistencies with not enough foreshadowing.

So, as far as Vajra goes, I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt I'd give a rabid, vicious dog; put them down for their safety and that of others, or enter them in an extensive and expensive rehab program that has low chances of success.

Of course, things are made worse by them being connected to two love rivals, one which has shown repeatedly that she has a hard time coping with the huge responsibility it is, so as far as I can guess, the only way to survive living with Vajra is to fulfil Galaxy's plan; infect all humans and make them connected to the Vajra network so that any heartbreaks are drowned out by the rest of the noise.

Which would make a decent OVA.
__________________
Irisiel is offline  
Old 2011-05-08, 07:43   Link #1389
raile
<3
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Lala rainbow land~
It was a fun rewatch.
I'm up for any rewatches of the other Macross series/OVA (but maybe not 7 though...) planned.
__________________
raile is offline  
Old 2011-05-08, 10:40   Link #1390
SS13
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Quote:
In short, I think that in an effort to hide the plot twist (Vajra are really nice people, really, Ranka said so, and she's so moe that she should know. Don't listen to that raving poltergeist named Gilliam! Or Michael, even though you totally should have listened to him when he discussed Alto's feelings!), they ended up writing inconsistencies with not enough foreshadowing.

Vajra are not interested in Gilliam / Michael. They DO distinquish objects, just like they distinquisch between themselves, but they see any non-songstress-human as mere drones, just an annoyance. The problem is, however that Galaxy DELIBERATELY provoked Vajra by stealing their eggs and placing them on Frontier - That's what turned a previously indifferent species into raging attackers. They weren't just trying to "take" Ranka - they wanted her (whom they considered the human queen) to tell where those eggs are. It took two songstresses and a lot of thinking to understand that different humans can have different actions, thus giving them understanding that Frontier was not responsble for the whole mess.

Quote:
'm up for any rewatches of the other Macross series/OVA (but maybe not 7 though...) planned.
Anything to alleviate impressions from the latest movie
SS13 is offline  
Old 2011-05-08, 11:11   Link #1391
Irisiel
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by SS13 View Post
Vajra are not interested in Gilliam / Michael. They DO distinquish objects, just like they distinquisch between themselves, but they see any non-songstress-human as mere drones, just an annoyance. The problem is, however that Galaxy DELIBERATELY provoked Vajra by stealing their eggs and placing them on Frontier - That's what turned a previously indifferent species into raging attackers. They weren't just trying to "take" Ranka - they wanted her (whom they considered the human queen) to tell where those eggs are. It took two songstresses and a lot of thinking to understand that different humans can have different actions, thus giving them understanding that Frontier was not responsble for the whole mess.
My problem is that Vajra used such inefficient and sometimes overly vicious methods. Sure, kill Gilliam, but why waste time when just one shot would do? Why go for Klan, who is stuck inside a glass tube? Why not quickly bypass these obstacles, after all, it would be more efficient and the humantradi force would not have as much time to drive them off?

Why not take Ranka to a secure location and force her to tell them, if they believe her to be a queen comparable to their own?

Why go out of their way to squeeeeeeeze someone to death? Why attack someone who is, for all intents and purposes, inanimate in that moment while there's two perfectly fighting enemies in the same room? Why not ignore her and concentrate on killing her allies so that she wont have back up when Vajra decide to kill her? They don't even have to acknowledge her as a separate being; shoot the healthy leg instead of the one that's asleep.

If they planned that someone would defend Klan, then they have to acknowledge individuality as well.

It's just, what we saw in the first episode, with Gilliam, is at odds with what we saw in the last episode, and it wasn't merely character development and revelations (heck, even just dropping Gilliam and stomping on him would have been more efficient than the squeeze).

Why don't the Vajra, if they are unable to hear humantradi who aren't infected songstresses, mistake machinery as a type of humantradi drone (like Gilliam's valkyrie)? After all, valkyries gave injured them just as much as the humantradi has. Add that Galaxy, who have injured them the most, is filled with humantradi cyborgs, which would make valkyries even more attractive targets.

It's like, sometimes they're vicious, sometimes they're just misunderstood, sometimes they don't understand individuality, sometimes they see the difference between zentradi, humans and machines.

It's like the series wavered a bit on that point, and then decided to go all out on the "Vajra are great!".

All I'm saying is that despite Vajra being portrayed as misunderstood and misunderstanding, they received some scenes that could put that portrayal into question, even after all is said and done.
__________________
Irisiel is offline  
Old 2011-05-08, 12:46   Link #1392
magnuskn
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Age: 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by SS13 View Post
Vajra are not interested in Gilliam / Michael. They DO distinquish objects, just like they distinquisch between themselves, but they see any non-songstress-human as mere drones, just an annoyance. The problem is, however that Galaxy DELIBERATELY provoked Vajra by stealing their eggs and placing them on Frontier - That's what turned a previously indifferent species into raging attackers. They weren't just trying to "take" Ranka - they wanted her (whom they considered the human queen) to tell where those eggs are. It took two songstresses and a lot of thinking to understand that different humans can have different actions, thus giving them understanding that Frontier was not responsble for the whole mess.
Uh, what? Dude, don't make up facts. There is absolutely no evidence in the show that Galaxy put the Vajra eggs onto Frontier.
__________________
magnuskn is offline  
Old 2011-05-09, 17:22   Link #1393
SS13
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Quote:
Uh, what? Dude, don't make up facts. There is absolutely no evidence in the show that Galaxy put the Vajra eggs onto Frontier.
But how else did they end there? Where did all those baby Vajra in ep 20 came from? Clearly Grace is at fault.

And the fact remains that Vajra had contact with humans for a long time, but never before did they started to attack fleets systematically (the 117th being the exception). Something angered the Vajra, and they blamed human "Queens" for it. That's why they wanted Ranka - not for nice chat.
SS13 is offline  
Old 2011-05-09, 17:32   Link #1394
Tak
☭ автомат Калашникова ☭
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Neu Herzogtum Zeon
Quote:
Originally Posted by SS13 View Post
But how else did they end there? Where did all those baby Vajra in ep 20 came from? Clearly Grace is at fault.
Thats not hard to answer. Many Vajra infiltrated the Frontier since the 1st episode. Hell, the Frontier military were still commencing cleanup operations in the episodes that followed.

It is also shown that Vajra can seemingly breed just about anywhere, even on derelicts drifting in the void of space.

Yes, it is Grace's fault that the Vajra started attacking, but she did not put the egg there.

- Tak
__________________
- Flight to Brazil? $1,500
- FIFA Stadium Ticket? $500
- Witnessing Coach Joachim Lw crack a smile at the World-Cup Final? PRICELESS


There are some things money can't buy. For everything else, there is Master Card.


Get strong like ROCK! Not weak like Barack! Putincize now!

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
Tak is online now  
Old 2011-05-09, 20:52   Link #1395
DragoZERO
Spoilaphobic
*IT Support
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: USA
Age: 28
SDF Macross Re-Watch 2011 starts this Saturday!
DragoZERO is offline  
Old 2011-05-10, 00:45   Link #1396
magnuskn
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Age: 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak View Post
Thats not hard to answer. Many Vajra infiltrated the Frontier since the 1st episode. Hell, the Frontier military were still commencing cleanup operations in the episodes that followed.

It is also shown that Vajra can seemingly breed just about anywhere, even on derelicts drifting in the void of space.

Yes, it is Grace's fault that the Vajra started attacking, but she did not put the egg there.

- Tak
What Tak said. Also, Grace did not get any advantage out of the Vajra larvae attacking Frontier. Sorry, but there is no evidence for your claim.
__________________
magnuskn is offline  
Old 2011-05-12, 04:04   Link #1397
Father Hentai
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Munich, Germany
Quote:
Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
What Tak said. Also, Grace did not get any advantage out of the Vajra larvae attacking Frontier. Sorry, but there is no evidence for your claim.
Not quite true. From scientific perspective it is the a good oppurtunity to "test" the persons foldwave ability (Sheryl) or to keep others under observation (Ranka e.g.).

I remember that a red vajra was tagged to Frontier hidden somewhere but on the other side, somewhere before the movie making of Macross Zero, the Leon/Grace conspiracy started. There was also the scene where the Skull Squad (Michel and Alto) was on scout duty and Brera destroyed a hidden vajra larva colony. However, maybe I'll rewatch the scenes. It's worth to look at the theory.
__________________
Born the same day as Satoshi Urushihara... Ill fated?
Father Hentai is offline  
Old 2011-05-12, 04:12   Link #1398
magnuskn
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Age: 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Father Hentai View Post
Not quite true. From scientific perspective it is the a good oppurtunity to "test" the persons foldwave ability (Sheryl) or to keep others under observation (Ranka e.g.).

I remember that a red vajra was tagged to Frontier hidden somewhere but on the other side, somewhere before the movie making of Macross Zero, the Leon/Grace conspiracy started. There was also the scene where the Skull Squad (Michel and Alto) was on scout duty and Brera destroyed a hidden vajra larva colony. However, maybe I'll rewatch the scenes. It's worth to look at the theory.
Uh, none of the scenes have any evidence that Grace was putting Vajra eggs onto Frontier.
__________________
magnuskn is offline  
Old 2011-05-12, 05:05   Link #1399
Father Hentai
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Munich, Germany
Quote:
Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
Uh, none of the scenes have any evidence that Grace was putting Vajra eggs onto Frontier.
That's why I would like to rewatch some scenes and see if we did not miss an important scene.
__________________
Born the same day as Satoshi Urushihara... Ill fated?
Father Hentai is offline  
Old 2011-05-12, 07:48   Link #1400
magnuskn
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Age: 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Father Hentai View Post
That's why I would like to rewatch some scenes and see if we did not miss an important scene.
Sure, if you can find any.
__________________
magnuskn is offline  
Closed Thread

Tags
macross frontier, re-watch

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 13:56.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.