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Old 2011-08-05, 11:47   Link #21
Belial13
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Can't wait to see what it looks like

I still play dota to this day fairly regularly, so can't wait for this to come out, and hopefully since it's on steam there will be no MH you you will get banned quickly if you you it ...
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Old 2011-08-05, 15:27   Link #22
Cinocard
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Originally Posted by -Sho- View Post
Huge? we have nothing about the content , the gameplay yet so i won't say this is huge.
We actually have almost complete gameplay information, duh. It's promised to be exactly the same as the current DotA, probably except advanced mechanics and UI.
What information we don't have is the feature/graphic/music/etc. the game as a standalone will have.

I can't wait to see how Valve will handle fine details such as "Mmmoonsster killll"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xion Valkyrie
The rotating heroes for unverified users is probably the best idea ever for DOTA. One of the biggest problems was that newbies are completely overwhelmed by an immediate pool of 100 heroes. Having a much smaller selection on rotation would allow newbies to slowly learn various heroes without being overwhelmed by them.
I feel that in the initial phase the most difficult thing is not to play your hero; any guide can give you one solid build and instruction to follow. What's difficult is to play against your enemy's heroes. You essentially need to know all 5 enemy heroes to have any chance.

Quote:
I believe it is better to host 5 different 200k tournaments than to dump $1mil into an exclusive tournament based on a game that is still in beta.
Or 5 $1mil tournaments.
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Old 2011-08-05, 15:53   Link #23
Xion Valkyrie
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Originally Posted by Cinocard View Post


I feel that in the initial phase the most difficult thing is not to play your hero; any guide can give you one solid build and instruction to follow. What's difficult is to play against your enemy's heroes. You essentially need to know all 5 enemy heroes to have any chance.



.
Yeah, that's why having a small pool makes it much easier for newbies to learn how to deal with enemy heroes.
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Old 2011-08-05, 17:44   Link #24
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F2P model of HoN is garbage. You don't need a company to dictate which heros you can use to only use a small amount of them at the start.
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Old 2011-08-05, 18:37   Link #25
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Wait till August 17th guys. Just wait. Icefrog is better than all the other fakers who either returned after he made the genre popular or want to cash in. And Valve is on a completely different tier from the imitators. But that still doesn't mean you should just believe the hype. Especially given that the past year wasn't the best in terms of DotA development (some of it was understandable given Icefrog's involvement with DotA2). Take it with some salt come August 17th.

Also, Reckoner, this might not appear huge here - but that's because animesuki isn't really for hardcore gamers who follow the competitive scene or spend far too much time mastering a game with an absurd learning curve - which just so is the biggest thing DotA has going for it. People here seem much more attracted to casual games. Stuff like LOL is much more likely to get a response here partly because it's a casual (read: dumbed down) game and partly because its been PR'd very very aggressively (after all, DotA's player base is far far bigger than that of LOL when it comes to casual play - but there is no central governing body that tells them to go like that youtube vid or go log in to that stream). Besides, even if people here play DotA, they probably already have other places where they talk about it (I know I do) so they are very seriously tired of it and wouldn't want to argue with casual folks from animesuki. Trust me when I say this is very huge where it actually matters. And given that its Valve, I am sure they will also manage to do something with the curve to make it more accessible. Not that it really matters anyway because once the game has actual financial backing and aggressive marketing, people will want to play it regardless of the curve. Whether they'll be good at it is another thing altogether but with most games, a very small portion of the players can actually play the game for its whole worth anyway.

@Waven: Sir, at what level did you play DotA and LOL? For DotA is much better than LOL even right now. It's a much more polished game and actually has all the supporting functions (sure they come from wc3 but it does have them) unlike LOL which doesn't even have a load function. Sounds more to me like you started with LOL because of your friends than because you judged it as the better game given that you didn't play a single DotA game afterwards to make anything like a fair comparison.
Unlike HON, I agree that LOL is actually a pretty nifty game and it was a job nicely done by riot games. Apart from their bitching and trying their best to poach DotA players and/or kill the community while at the same time claiming to be doing it for the community. And apart from the severe dumbing down of the game along with the balance issues. Not to mention the micro-transaction model. And the damned kiddy feel that makes me cringe every time I play. But mostly, their trying to hurt the roots while claiming to be its definitive successor is what put me off the most. That letter from pendragon along with the shutting down of DA was enough reason for me to not buy riot games rhetoric one bit.
In any case, rest assured that DotA2 will be better than LOL. Valve is an incomparably more experienced, richer and better company than Riot games and if you really did play DotA since Guinsoo's times then you obviously know just how much better a developer Icefrog is than Guinsoo.

@Flying Dagger: 5 tournaments worth 200k each won't have anywhere near the "trout smack" value of the 2 million dollar tournament (it's $1 million for the winner alone - not the total pool and Valve is also paying for the trips and accommodation of all teams). Your idea about numerous lower prize pool tournaments being better for the growth and the future of the game might sound logical on first thought but ultimately fails hard. Because competitive games grow by drawing attention. A 1 million $ tournament right off the bat from the developer itself is going to garner much more interest from potential sponsors than any number of smaller tournaments could. That is going to mean much more money flowing into the scene. It is already happening - just this week, Sicong Wang - son of one of the richest Chinese - invested 6.2 million dollars to buy an organization - mostly for its DotA team. Big money attracts bigger money. To make it big, you have to risk big. Not that $1 million is that big a deal for Valve anyway. Not when it's for the game at this moment. The number of people playing DotA which is naught but a mod far exceeds most professional titles. Conservative estimates suggest 35 to 40 million players. Hosting a million dollar tournament to celebrate successfully enshrining a franchise like that is exactly what Valve should of done.

Last edited by Forsaken_Infinity; 2011-08-05 at 19:09.
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Old 2011-08-05, 19:53   Link #26
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Why is all the DotA 2 player/waiters so very elitist. Since it still hasn't came out yet, you guys just gonna kill time flaming LoL players? Why can't you just speculate about how DotA2 will develop instead of "My game better than your game" flamefest. This is much comparable to the Battlefield Elitist trolling CoD players, which is plain childish. Personally I can't wait to try DotA2 out, but I will be disappointed if it is just another DotAClone with better graphics.
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Last edited by Izayoi; 2011-08-05 at 23:36.
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Old 2011-08-05, 22:56   Link #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Forsaken_Infinity View Post
Stuff like LOL is much more likely to get a response here partly because it's a casual (read: dumbed down) game and partly because its been PR'd very very aggressively
Lolz.

No, seriously. You're not playing competitively, so stop it.
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Old 2011-08-05, 23:35   Link #28
Xion Valkyrie
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
F2P model of HoN is garbage. You don't need a company to dictate which heros you can use to only use a small amount of them at the start.
The point is to limit what heroes the newbie might FACE, not play as. Sure he can pick 1 hero to stick with but if he fights a set of new heroes every game for 5 games straight he's going to be completely overwhelmed.

DOTA is more about knowing how to deal with your opponent's heroes.
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Old 2011-08-06, 00:58   Link #29
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Originally Posted by Duo Maxwell View Post
Lolz.

No, seriously. You're not playing competitively, so stop it.
O_O
Sure I don't get paid to play or anything (very few people actually do outside china) but I do play competitively. Just because you don't know me (do you even follow the scene anyway?) doesn't mean I don't ._.
And all you have to do is play both games in a competitive match (that means anything with ten good players playing it out with and not just the e-sports scene) to realize which game has a more polished gameplay.

@Izayoi: Well DotA is better than LOL overall and there is no reason not to say it as long as I admit that LOL does have its good points, isn't a total clone like HON and respect people's choices to play that game. I play it occasionally myself and there is nothing wrong with playing it (especially with friends). But expecting DotA players to never say that DotA is better in a discussion is just as bad as elitists flaming the fuck out of people (which I don't think I was doing if your post was referring to me). Oh and the whole point to DotA2 is that it's standalone DotA with actual backing from an established company and a centralized governing body. So it's pretty much DotA with better graphics and without the limitations of the war3 engine. Feel free to be disappointed but a great many people wouldn't like unnecessary changes made to what's already there so the fundamentals will be pretty much the same.

@xion valkyrie: I would much rather not teach a false game to people. There are better ways to go about helping people learn the game than hide the upper tier heroes from them only to catch them by surprise later on. To begin with, a game should aim to have all heroes with about the same strength overall and only differing in strength when in lieu of a strategy because of synergies and counter value etc. Granted that's pretty much impossible to attain but clearly making some heroes stronger and some weaker to help newbies is a horrible idea. Better go about that with better documentation, tips, clearer UI etc.
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Old 2011-08-06, 01:07   Link #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Forsaken_Infinity View Post
O_O
Sure I don't get paid to play or anything (very few people actually do outside china) but I do play competitively. Just because you don't know me (do you even follow the scene anyway?) doesn't mean I don't ._.
And all you have to do is play both games in a competitive match (that means anything with ten good players playing it out with and not just the e-sports scene) to realize which game has a more polished gameplay.
I'm in the scene where people do get paid to play competitively, in both DotA and LoL. Most prefer LoL as in heavily teamwork than DotA. And please don't think only China get paid for playing competitively. Almost all the Asia are doing that.

The balancing in LoL can't compare to DotA, seeing it's only been 2 to 3 years when it's become popular, while DotA has been around for 8 years, but the concept is better than DotA overall. Did you think DotA just pull the "different type of gold for farming and killing" from their head? No. It came from somewhere, and I think you know where it is.
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Old 2011-08-06, 02:26   Link #31
DeadBonesDooM
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Ahh shut up you ignorant brats, you found dota when it went big, like 6 years ago?
I have played dota as long as I can remember
DotA is most badass game ever, DotA 2 will be more badass then anything made yet.
Yes DotA 2 will be another copy of dota but it has better graphics, improved game systems, new hero models(similar to original ones), new item models and probaly more and more features.
LoL is just an horrible game.
Now if you come to flame me that "omg you haven't played lol", then please gtfo I have played every game based on DotA.
And there are more than enough of them.
And so far, DOTA has been best. Then comes HoN, then Avalon heros and then LoL.
I don't know how good DotA 2 will be, but I hope it will be good.
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Old 2011-08-06, 02:41   Link #32
Reckoner
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I'm not saying anything is wrong with LoL as a game but it does take less skill that dota (No denying for one thing) and some of its mechanics (No tp's???) are just weird.

DoTA is definitely a more well made game than HoN and LoL, because unlike those 2 there isn't a huge shit pool of heroes that never see the light of day in competitive play.

I'll be very glad when this game comes out, I have high hopes for it obtaining lots of focus in the e sports world and it will eliminate the limitations of war3 engine at last.
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Old 2011-08-06, 03:00   Link #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
I'm not saying anything is wrong with LoL as a game but it does take less skill that dota (No denying for one thing) and some of its mechanics (No tp's???) are just weird.
No denying means you take more time shitting at each other than trying to hitting the creeps. And there is TP. I don't even know if you actually play the game or not...

But I guess there are people who love to farm for 30 minutes and go owning instead. Even with the speed up process DotA currently has, and tri-lane strat, it will still take at least 15 minutes to pass the laning phase.

In LoL? Big action starts at lv 2.

Quote:
Ahh shut up you ignorant brats, you found dota when it went big, like 6 years ago?
11 years ago. Does that count?
LoL is horrible when you don't play as a team. It required a well coordinated players among the whole team more than individual skill.

I've seen a lot of DotA team jump to LoL bangwagon and then staying there. I'm not saying LoL is much more better than DotA, but for what it did by not trying to be a carbon copy (as HoN), and be different in many fields and concept, it's actually a well thought out project. The reason DotA is much more popular is because it's old, honestly. Don't tell me you don't see how many thing in LoL that was taken into DotA?
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Old 2011-08-06, 03:59   Link #34
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While I liked both games just as much when I started playing LoL, I'm slowly leaning towards the latter. Riot has reworked champions that had started to fade away and casters don't need shitloads of disables and items to be efficient, summoner spells really make battles more interesting and seizing map control is overall more exciting because of the easier split-pushing.
Don't get me wrong, I still play DotA whenever I feel like it, but I like playing the old time classic heroes, the 4 last new ones I tried put me off fast.
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Old 2011-08-06, 04:44   Link #35
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Originally Posted by Duo Maxwell View Post
I'm in the scene where people do get paid to play competitively, in both DotA and LoL. Most prefer LoL as in heavily teamwork than DotA. And please don't think only China get paid for playing competitively. Almost all the Asia are doing that.

The balancing in LoL can't compare to DotA, seeing it's only been 2 to 3 years when it's become popular, while DotA has been around for 8 years, but the concept is better than DotA overall. Did you think DotA just pull the "different type of gold for farming and killing" from their head? No. It came from somewhere, and I think you know where it is.
Erm, I have been in the DotA scene for ages too you know. I am pretty sure I know a lot more about DotA and the scene than you do judging by the contents of your post thus far (and because I know just how deeply involved I actually am/was). I know full well that people outside China are also getting paid to play but it's nowhere near enough to call it a profession outside China except for maybe Navi players. Getting paid from a tournament isn't what I am referring to. I am referring to a decent monthly salary and there are very few people actually drawing that outside China. The Vietnamese scene is supported more by bet games than by professional backing and the same goes for most of the SEA as well as the pinoy scene. Sure there are several teams with decent sponsors and all but most of them only provide some equipments and take care of some travel costs etc. Very few organizations actually require full time commitment to the game from their players and the pay reflects that obviously.

And please stop making me laugh with your people prefer LOL competitively crap. It's favored over other DotA clones by people - as a game -, yes, but over DotA itself? Heck no. And for competitive play? Even HoN is better in that regard because it actually has fully functional skeleton laid out for competitive play. LOL lacks even basic stuff such as save load mechanism. Give me names of whom exactly you know from the scene please because I know a lot of people and none whomsoever prefers LOL over DotA and certainly not competitively. List names, go.

How is the concept of LOL better than DotA? It's arguably more accessible and is much less harsh on mistakes so it cuts down the learning curve superficially. But that also has the effect of making the game feel dumb to seasoned players. That micro-transaction model along with the limiting of players to a weaker hero pool (I made arguments for why limited hero pool is a horrible idea just a few posts up there) and the summoner spells are pretty much the only fundamental mechanics it offers that are different to DotA but those are fail O_O

Did you seriously just imply that the concept of reliable gold is a ripoff from LOL? Rofl. You do realize that LOL doesn't incur gold loss on death at all right? Reliable gold is a completely different mechanism that has actually been on consideration since as far back as 6.5x era. How do I know? I have been in active correspondence with IceFrog since before 6.43 O_O And it is born of a completely different reason than making the game easier for newbies. It was designed with the intention of promoting an aggressive style of play (otherwise known as ganking). It was a balance fix at best and not at an influence from a game which takes away the primary incentive to ganking - the very thing this reliable gold concept was introduced for - by not making the enemy carry lose the game upon death. You are so far off the mark with that argument, bro, that you lost most of your credibility if you had any. It's like (but worse than) saying the whole new dominion thing that riot games are planning is but a ripoff of -CP mode in DotA but that doesn't mean its going to be implemented exactly the same so it's a void argument. And unfortunately, the reliable gold mechanism didn't do the expected job by itself anyway. Smoke did that job for it so its all cool.

And there is nothing wrong with games borrowing concepts. I have no problem at all accepting that LOL is easier to introduce new people to than wc3 DotA. And that's a good thing because it leads in the overall growth of the genre. Competition is a good thing and it will drive improvements. But I don't see a reason to not claim a better game as a better game.

Also, you haven't been keeping an eye on the evolution of the metagame in DotA, have you? DotA metagame is like fashion, it changes every so often. The farm for fame metagame has been away for quite a while now. Action starts before creepspawn in actually competitive DotA. You have to put the wards up in proper places - level one teamfights are not uncommon at all since the introduction of smoke and heck even as far back as the RUSH3d touring China with lots of games against 7L era, level one teamfights were not at all rare. Farming is a valid strategy like any other but it's only a choice. And the current dominant metagame is actually to push and end the game as soon as you can. So farming for thirty mins is most likely going to make you lose the game.

And hello, DotA needs a lot more co-ordination than LOL for the simple fact that your carry actually loses gold when he dies - that he doesn't have a free tp back home - that experience can be denied - that towerdiving is actually possible from very early levels and that the strategies possible in DotA are far more varied thanks to its larger hero pool and much better balance as well as the amount of polish.

@Kafriel: With regards to Casters being useful even lategame etc., that's actually such a cancerous mechanics. I would much rather have casters with fixed damage and powerful at early game nukes or disables that take some guts, planning and proper positioning to pull off for them to be useful lategame than this whole scaling nuke crap.

With regards to the new heroes in DotA and the general lack of development the past year, yes, that is a valid complaint. Development on DotA has kinda been much less lively this past year. I can only hope DotA2 will change that (and I am forgiving the last year because understandably, Ice was involved in something bigger that takes time). I am not impartial to dropping the game if it turns out bad. If it disappoints me, I have no problems calling something that fails a failure. But Icefrog has consistently impressed me in the past and Valve aren't exactly inexperienced either. So for now, I am hyped. And people who actually have access to the closed beta all seem pleased with it thus far too.
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Old 2011-08-06, 05:57   Link #36
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@Forsaken_Infinity:

You are so freaking biased it hurts, I don't even know where to start.

You say dota is the "better" game, yet your only clearly defined argument is the lack of save load function. Point is both have their weak and strong points and if you want to prove to all the people here that dota is the better game then you better show some evidence. I just stated which is the better game for me now and how dota2 could become the better game for me later. See the difference in wording compared to your fanboying?

And what does my level of play have to do with anything anyway? But since you're asking: As for dota I played through #dotapickup.euro for the most time (and casual before that obviously because there was no competitive scene). As for LoL I have 1600+ games on my back with about 100 more wins than losses, that is with an automated matchmaking system similar to elo, something the classic dota lacks btw. The point is, what you're trying to promote is an all elitist community in dota claiming that LoL is too casual. A healthy esports community, however, needs a broad basis of casual gamers as well. First, to ensure money for the company maintaining the game and second for the esports scene to develop for you need a lot of people watching streams in order for sponsors to create tournaments in the first place. You could also say in a large gaming community the lower 2/3 are all just casuals.

And Valve being such a better company? Do you know a bit about the CS scene? Do you know who developed CS Source? Know what CS Source did to the scene? - Split it. Even though Valve promised to deliver the same yet improved gaming experience people felt it wasn't the same and it ultimately became its precursor's biggest direct rival instead of becoming its successor. So if I were you I wouldn't bitch at LoL but look at classic dota to become dota2's greatest rival in terms of community.

You may go on and say why you like dota better but please refrain from stating that dota is undoubtly the better game because that makes you look like a biased and arrogant fanboy. Dota is not better, you just like it better than LoL... can we please leave it at that?

Last edited by Waven; 2011-08-06 at 06:15.
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Old 2011-08-06, 07:08   Link #37
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Originally Posted by Duo Maxwell View Post
Lolz.

No, seriously. You're not playing competitively, so stop it.
Badass DoTa pro alert You're so cool dude, show me how to play video games competitively...
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Old 2011-08-06, 09:46   Link #38
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LoL is more casual? Just because it does things differently doesn't make a game instantly casual.

Hypothetically speaking, if tennis players had to snap their fingers on the left hand each time they hit the ball, does that mean that if the rules changed to where they don't have to do it the game is suddenly casual? since "omg all the finger snapping haxxor-skills that was at the core of the game and decided every set is gone". Or, is the game now more intense since sets are decided by the players stamina and tactics and you also now have players who hit the ball with both hands as well as left handed players added to the mix.

Just because a game is different mechanically doesn't mean a game is suddenly casual. Casual is also nothing bad, the idea of casual these days is of games being "games", you know those things where you actually have fun? If anything being more casual is better for the esport aspect of things since it means players get the chance of distinguishing themselves though good play and not though some "artificial" mechanic.
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Old 2011-08-06, 11:51   Link #39
Cinocard
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I don't comprehend why you guys are arguing aout the "competitiveness" of the game, when even games like tetrix can be "competitive." Almost, no matter how simple the gameplay is, there is an infinite room for improvement and perfection.

Going by the buck, and the audience, DotA is obviously superior, and most likely things will stay that way.

What I have to say is that to me, competitive DotA is much more intense and exciting to watch. I don't know about others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by felix
LoL is more casual? Just because it does things differently doesn't make a game instantly casual.

Hypothetically speaking, if tennis players had to snap their fingers on the left hand each time they hit the ball, does that mean that if the rules changed to where they don't have to do it the game is suddenly casual?
In a sense, yes, a LoL match may be more casual, since it's a standalone game, and with the way features are design, you have other things to care about than the match only (in contrast, there's no point whatsoever in DotA other than the matches themselves). And yes, if mistakes are taxed more heavily, it always makes anything less casual. You should see that your tennis argument is completely off, since it's not about being casual as compared to a general standard, but about being more or less casual. If tennis players snap their fingers each time they hit the ball, I bet the game would be much more intense for them, no?

Though why is casual a bad thing again?
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Originally Posted by ChainLegacy View Post
Badass DoTa pro alert You're so cool dude, show me how to play video games competitively...
I think he meant a Badass LoL pro too Well, we all are going way off-topic here.
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Old 2011-08-06, 12:23   Link #40
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Originally Posted by Waven View Post
@Forsaken_Infinity:

You are so freaking biased it hurts, I don't even know where to start.

You say dota is the "better" game, yet your only clearly defined argument is the lack of save load function. Point is both have their weak and strong points and if you want to prove to all the people here that dota is the better game then you better show some evidence. I just stated which is the better game for me now and how dota2 could become the better game for me later. See the difference in wording compared to your fanboying?

And what does my level of play have to do with anything anyway? But since you're asking: As for dota I played through #dotapickup.euro for the most time (and casual before that obviously because there was no competitive scene). As for LoL I have 1600+ games on my back with about 100 more wins than losses, that is with an automated matchmaking system similar to elo, something the classic dota lacks btw. The point is, what you're trying to promote is an all elitist community in dota claiming that LoL is too casual. A healthy esports community, however, needs a broad basis of casual gamers as well. First, to ensure money for the company maintaining the game and second for the esports scene to develop for you need a lot of people watching streams in order for sponsors to create tournaments in the first place. You could also say in a large gaming community the lower 2/3 are all just casuals.

And Valve being such a better company? Do you know a bit about the CS scene? Do you know who developed CS Source? Know what CS Source did to the scene? - Split it. Even though Valve promised to deliver the same yet improved gaming experience people felt it wasn't the same and it ultimately became its precursor's biggest direct rival instead of becoming its successor. So if I were you I wouldn't bitch at LoL but look at classic dota to become dota2's greatest rival in terms of community.

You may go on and say why you like dota better but please refrain from stating that dota is undoubtly the better game because that makes you look like a biased and arrogant fanboy. Dota is not better, you just like it better than LoL... can we please leave it at that?
O_O, you do realize that I am pretty much at the very bottom of the scale when it comes to DotA fanboyism right? I am fine with playing LOL and agreeing that it at least deserves its unique identity (because its not just a clone unlike HON). It's a fun enough game, especially when you play with friends.

How is my only clearly defined point the lack of save load? I am pretty sure I made valid points against pool limiting, scaling nukes, the way LOL is much easier on mistakes by not making people lose gold on death and giving them free distress teleports, not to mention the lack of denying. And DotA being better than LOL doesn't mean LOL is a horribly bad game that sucks - it has more to do with DotA being more polished gameplay wise and with the fact that the heroes, the metagame and the strategies have been much more thoroughly studied in DotA.

I don't deny that I am biased towards DotA because I most likely am but trust me on that I am sincerely trying my best not to be. I give (or at least try to give) LOL credits for what it does right. But LOL isn't the definitive successor to DotA that riot game still brands it as and I will forever have it against them for what they did to what was my home for years (DA). I am arguing for DotA here but I also argue for LOL where people write it off completely. I have no qualms bashing Icefrog or Valve for their flaws either. The most prominent being the general lack of life DotA development has received this past year (after all, if I quit DotA before DotA2 comes out because it got that boring, I won't come back) and the absolute bullshit that is the lack of updates regarding DotA2. I have irked off quite a few people in both matters

Do I know about the CS scene? Oh hell yes I do. I was a regular at gotfrag for ages before I got more into DotA. Do I have something against Valve? Of course I do. Not only did they make the fail that was CS:S but they also effectively ruined the NA CS scene by forcing CGS to use CS:S as well as trying a myriad different tricks to try and make people switch. I will never forget the ads plastered all over de_dust2's walls. But does that take away from the fact that Valve are a good, very very experienced company that has managed to care about gamers more than the vast majority of developers? No it doesn't. It shouldn't. Not if you are to be objective and look over your biases. Steam, which received very little community support and looked all set to be the biggest flop ever is now the premier platform in the world. They did a marvelous job with TF2 and while CS:S was fail, the source engine itself is beyond epic. They have shown over the years that they learn from their mistakes and care more about gamers than your average developer that just wishes to milk the cow.

I have my reservations about DotA2, most definitely. But Valve is a good company and definitely pretty much the best company that DotA could have wished for (the other would have been Blizzard a couple years back but they just haven't been the same since their obsession with WOW started). And its not just Valve. It's also the fact that Icefrog is involved himself and apparently has been given as much creative control as he desired. I have been in correspondence with the guy for a while and he is definitely an impressive developer alright. Not to mention he has the help of some of the smartest people I know that aren't at all affiliated with valve. The best part about DotA community is that it's self managed. The worst part is that it is increasingly negative the further you get involved. Even at the supposedly "pro" scene, people flame, rage, cry and put their ego in front of actual professionalism.

Regarding casual players being necessary / inseparable, I completely agree. It is one of the points I constantly bring up whenever people suggest that they wouldn't care if DotA lost all the casual players for they are but emo kids or noobs yada yada. A game is supposed to be played for fun and people who play it for that are an absolute must. I don't think Valve and Icefrog have any plan to make the upcoming game an elitist only game. Existing DotA is also a lot more of a casual game than a competitive one simply because it lacked actual backing. It wasn't until recently that the popularity of the game forced the sponsors to actually dive in. And that was made possible only by the massive amount of people playing the game casually. So I definitely agree with you there.

DotA is but a custom map - it didn't have a matchmaking system by itself. But the community has structures around it. There are clients that implement as good a matchmaking system as implemented by LOL and HON. But I prefer communities that manage themselves than relying on numbers to balance teams anyway. Inhouse groups and such are awesome stuff and DotA doesn't lack that. A built-in matchmaking would help casual play a lot though and that's exactly where DotA2 comes in. To provide those functions that are missing from DotA thanks to it being but a mod for an age old game. That includes matchmaking, stat tracking, reconnecting, better support for replays, video making, hostbots etc. etc.

I wouldn't say DotA is a better game than LOL unless I truly believed that to be the case. You can refute my arguments and it obviously is but my opinion but I assure you it's not at all a blind fanboy's opinion. I weigh my choices before I speak.

@Felix: Lol is more casual because it clearly focused on drawing in the crowd that wasn't already fanatically addicted to competitive DotA. It got popular because it offers an easier curve than DotA does and because its much less harsh on newbies. And that's absolutely fine. But it doesn't even have so much as an option to load. You can clearly tell where the focus of the developer was. It was designed with an intent to draw the casual crowd in. A seasoned DotA player will most definitley do well in LOL if he puts in any effort while the same can't be said for a seasoned LOL player that tries DotA out. There are several things at play though so it's a dangerous generalization but let's let it slide because this is already too much of a tl;dr post.

Anyway, I agree with you on that artifical mechanics are better removed. I support including mana bars for instance. Not that those little details would make much difference in the competitive level because they would rather rely on raw numbers by clicking on the hero than a graphical representation that is just as easily misleading as helpful. But it sure does help e-sports grow by making it more accessible to people and by letting the spectators understand the game better.

@Cinocard: I am with felix in that artificial mechanics serve only to boost ego and nothing else. And nothing is wrong with casual games. And even the most casual games can and do go competitive. But DotA is unique in that it thrives on competition. It has one of the worst, most unappreciative communities ever because it thrives on ego clashes. So paying attention to the competitive scene is a must for DotA 2.

And the reason competitive DotA is more interesting to watch is for the most part the the fact that it has been much more thoroughly explored. That means there are lots more strategies and playstyles available and that the simplest of mistakes can throw the game away vs a well prepared opponent. Not to mention mistakes are much harsher on the players due to the game itself being harder so the intensity is a lot sharper.
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