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Old 2011-07-20, 21:22   Link #3021
Dark Wing
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This is something I can agree with Triple_R this hate toward Sayaka is completely unwarranted. Sure she made some mistakes but hasn't she already paid enough for them.
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Old 2011-07-20, 21:37   Link #3022
00Coyote
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
You know, I have to be frank...
It's amazing to me how much hatred Sayaka gets for one little scene in Episode 10 that lasts maybe a minute, if that.

And the people who hate on her for that scene tend to say that they hate Sayaka for being "too judgmental".

Well, isn't it awfully judgmental to hate a character for one bad scene where they come off as worse than usual? It is, yes, Sayaka at her worst. In other words, she's usually better than that. So to judge a character on the basis of their worst scene seems a bit overly harsh to me.
I've wondered about that particular scene many times. It is just a simple scene, primarily used to set up Homura stealing guns from the Yakuza, and to work Kyokou and Sayaka into the time loops, but it has such a huge impact on the perceived character of Sayaka.

Taken in the context of the conversation, she is just expressing her doubts about this dorky looking girl, and her desire not to get blown up. Her tone comes off as whiney and self-important, but nowhere near as mean spirited as her telling Madoka off in the rain. But to the audience (well, at least to me) it comes off so much more harsh and bitchy.

I have 2 thoughts on this:

1: The audience knows what Homura just went through and that her motivation for telling the truth is genuine. Sayaka snapping at Homura (who has 90% of the viewer's full and undivided sympathy) is like kicking the poor sick puppy in the rain. Instant vilianification from some, but lots of love lost from many.

2: To the audience, her tone and attitude are a continuation of her descent into despair, which caused so much heartbreak in episode 8. But that despair and woe-is-me defeatism, taken out of the flow of Sayaka's story, and directly compared to how hard Homura is fighting for everyone (her main concern is Madoka, but she isn't so jaded by this point that she doesn't care for the others) it's like comparing a turd to a nice piece of cake, you just have to go 'ewwwwww'.

Quote:
None of these girls are downright perfect (thankfully). Yet it seems like only Sayaka gets judged by her worst scenes...
The flip side of that is that most of Sayaka's strongest scenes were drenched in despair, and most of her scenes painted her in a negative light, leaving her wide open to be judged harshly. Or put more simply, most of her scenes were her worst scenes.

Poor, poor Sayaka, she really caught the brutal end of Gen Urobuchi's story.
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Old 2011-07-21, 04:47   Link #3023
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most of her scenes painted her in a negative light, leaving her wide open to be judged harshly.
Sayaka is the one character who never benefited from a "moment of awesome/cool". I recall that Madoka was subject to many complaints about her status as a "useless" character for a majority of the series. Episode 10 and after quickly swung the pendulum in the other direction of course.

I also think Sayaka was judged harshly because of the romance angle. In my opinion, Magical Girl stuff aside, it was a pretty accurate portrayal of a young girl experiencing the pain of a one sided love and her self esteem issues due to it. However I'm not sure others see it like this, given that the audience is generally heavily male and that anime in general features unrealistic love scenarios (harems being a prominent example).

I'm not saying that Sayaka didn't bear the brunt of the negativity in the story, a good portion of the show was devoted to her "fall" after all. However I think Gen did the right thing by making it a point to show that while it was too little too late, Sayaka did recognize her faults and came to terms with them. I think that while he didn't "save" her in the way some of the audience (and even some members of Shaft) wanted, he did at least give her character a dignified note to go out with.

In fact, I think Sayaka's story ended with a good reflection. It's easy to make mistakes, and to hurt others. It's harder to forgive others, and even harder to forgive yourself. While it was just before her death (in the subway) and then posthumously (in the theater), her reflections on what she had done, and how she came to terms with that, really spoke volumes to me about how much Gen thought about her character development and what he wanted to say through her.
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Old 2011-07-21, 09:48   Link #3024
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Originally Posted by 00Coyote View Post
I've wondered about that particular scene many times. It is just a simple scene, primarily used to set up Homura stealing guns from the Yakuza, and to work Kyokou and Sayaka into the time loops, but it has such a huge impact on the perceived character of Sayaka.
My argument is that you and some others are allowing it to overly impact your perception of Sayaka's character.


Quote:

Taken in the context of the conversation,
We don't even know the context of the conversation.

Seriously, we don't.

IIRC, this is the very first conversation we see in Timeline 3.

We have no idea in this world how Sayaka and Homura are getting along before then in this particular timeline.

What if, say, Homura's bombs had come dangerously close to injuring Sayaka in a botched/partially botched Puella Magi operation, and Sayaka is lightly referring to that here? That is a possibility that could be taken into consideration given what Sayaka said to Homura in their conversation here.

Due to her Puella Magi self-regeneration abilities, Sayaka could heal from a bomb injury rather quickly, but it could still be very painful and possibly traumatizing.

Now, if such an event came close to happening, then Sayaka's comments to Homura take on a bit of a greater weight, and become more understandable, in my view.

But then, this is just a hypothetical on my part, I'll admit. But it does go to show how we're lacking context here, which is one reason why I would advise against attempts to read a lot into this particular scene from Episode 10.


Quote:
The flip side of that is that most of Sayaka's strongest scenes were drenched in despair, and most of her scenes painted her in a negative light,
No, they didn't. I disagree with you here.

I think that most of Sayaka's scenes painted her in the light of a pretty normal teenage girl. That's certainly not the same as a "negative light".

Solace is absolutely right in what he says about the romance angle of this anime in the post directly above, and I sincerely think that many viewers haven't really tried to understand where Sayaka was coming from there. Understanding the pain and self-esteem issues that one-sided love causes for a young girl is essential to truly understanding Sayaka's character, in my opinion.


Quote:
Or put more simply, most of her scenes were her worst scenes.
Again, I disagree. I think that you're being far too harsh on Sayaka here.


Also, about the scene where Sayaka was "telling Madoka off" in the rain. That was caused by Madoka trying to tell Sayaka how to do her job (i.e. how she should carry out her role as a Puella Magi). Yes, it's obviously sincere concern that's motivating Madoka there, but most people tend to get annoyed when you tell them how they should do their job. This is especially true when such unasked for advice comes from someone who doesn't even work the same job as you do (and Madoka was not a Puella Magi at the time).

The typical human response to being told how to do your job?:

"Well, if you think it's so easy, then why don't you do it?!"

And guess what? That sums up most of what Sayaka said to Madoka in that scene. Totally natural human response to somebody telling you how to do your job.
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Old 2011-07-22, 00:30   Link #3025
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Lets start from the bottom and work our way up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by 00coyote
Or put more simply, most of her scenes were her worst scenes.
Again, I disagree. I think that you're being far too harsh on Sayaka here.

(a snip for space)

The typical human response to being told how to do your job?:

"Well, if you think it's so easy, then why don't you do it?!"

And guess what? That sums up most of what Sayaka said to Madoka in that scene. Totally natural human response to somebody telling you how to do your job.
The thing I enjoy most about Madoka Magica's story is how brutally logical it is, or better yet how frightening natural the characters actions and reactions are. That's not to say it's perfect, but how tightly the characters and story are woven together is really something. That tight weave hurts some characters (Madoka) but Sayaka's story shaped half the series.

Sayaka's prime motivation: she wanted Kamijou to love her. She deeply loved him, he had her (childhood) friend-zoned. Her insecurities as a teenager, her fear of being rejected by him, are compounded with her guilt that somehow she is responsible for him being paralyzed in that accident. She wanted to help him, she desperately wanted him to love her back, but she was afraid to make the first move. These are not alien or absurd emotions, all incredibly normal for a teenage girl.

Sayaka made mistakes, just like anyone else. The combination of her insecurities with her hard-head resulted in her doing and saying things she knew were bad, again very normal.

There were two problems, however. One, she was set up to fall, and she fell by her own bad choices. The other big problem was that in all of this normal teenage problems you had QB and magic involved. Normal, everyday mistakes and the despair that everyone had growing up now have literally soul crushing consequences, and the collateral damage was just as severe.

Sayaka wanted Kamijou's love, but due to her circumstances and personality she couldn't pursue it. Without her prime motivation, she self-destructed.

That is Sayaka's story in a nutshell. How people receive that story, how they react to it, how severely she is judged or how many of her faults are overlooked is left entirely to the viewer.

In order to answer the generalized question that started this all
Quote:
Why is the fandom so down on Sayaka? How did she warrant that much hate from fans?
you have to be (over)generalized 'Everyone hates her because she is a bitch.' or 'STFU, everyone loves and adores her.' But of course not everyone hates/loves her, nor are all people that simplistic.

A generalized question deserves a generalized (and usually wrong) answer.
I'm giving a specific answer to a generalized question, no good will come of it.

Quote:
My argument is that you and some others are allowing it to overly impact your perception of Sayaka's character.
I need to correct an assumption you seem to be making about this conversation, that I hate Sayaka. I'm nowhere near hating her, I can't even really hate that vile, manipulative, emotionless scheming bastard QB. There is a big difference between hating a character, and pointing out the flaws and mistakes that she made, and how that affected the flow of the story, and the emotions of the viewer.

In my opinion, Sayaka is defined by the mistakes she made, and how she deals with the consequences of those mistakes builds her character up from what otherwise would be a shallow, one dimensional 'genki girl' stereotype.

Again, in my opinion, to gloss over those mistakes, failures and flaws by: 'She is just a teenage girl' or 'those are just normal things' or 'people are being too judgmental' do an incredible dis-service to such a beautiful tragic figure.

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Old 2011-07-22, 07:49   Link #3026
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Hoooboy, I'm getting news about crackers hitting badly-maintained government websites and leaving pictures of Kyubey, runes and Connect on the hacked pages.
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Old 2011-07-22, 08:25   Link #3027
Gohan78
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I came to dislike Sayaka way before episode 10. I think that Sayaka's actions after the revelation of the truth of the Soul Gem were downright awful.

1) She refused Kyoko's plea for friendship and even shamed her over the stolen apples.

2) She angsted over her "zombiefication", which seemed nonsensical to me since nobody could tell the difference between a normal girl's body and a magical girl's.

3) She cast away her human heart when fighting witches, and later scolded Madoka who just wanted to help.

4) She stubbornly refused to collect Grief Seeds and even refused Homura's gift without reason. Even though she didn't know that Magical Girls turn into witches, it seems obvious that having your Soul Gem darken is a Bad Thing...

5) Her downfall indirectly caused Kyoko's death and another great deal of anguish for Madoka.

For all these reasons I started to dislike Sayaka before Episode 10, which only reinforced my negative opinion of her.
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Old 2011-07-22, 09:51   Link #3028
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 00Coyote View Post
Lets start from the bottom and work our way up.

The thing I enjoy most about Madoka Magica's story is how brutally logical it is, or better yet how frightening natural the characters actions and reactions are.
This I agree with... which is precisely why I've argued things like 'She is just a (pretty normal) teenage girl' or 'those are just normal things' or 'people are being too judgmental'.

A story like Madoka Magica's (and particularly its more tragic elements) has added impact, in my view, if you think that it arises moreso from a collection of protagonists that are all reasonably normal human beings (for their gender and age) than from a collection of protagonists viewed as highly atypical (for example, take the female cast of Denpa Onna, where they tend to be very eccentric).

In other words, Sayaka's fall has more meaning if it's something that many average, everyday teenage girls would have also succumbed to if in Sayaka's shoes, than if Sayaka's fall is due to her having highly atypical/excessive flaws and/or a very unusual personality.

I really do think that Gen intended Sayaka to be pretty close to an "Everygirl" character type, a teenage girl version of the Everyman character type.

Now, almost nobody is totally normal. It would actually be unusual for a person to be totally normal across the board, in every area and way (i.e. to simply be the perfect average of the society at large in every area and way).

Sayaka's morality is largely conventional, but has a touch of Superman to it. In other words, she cares about propriety, justice, and defending the innocent perhaps a bit more than your average person would, but the flip side of that is that this makes her a bit harsher than normal on those who don't come across to her as caring about propriety and justice and defending the innocent. This is true until she becomes cynical and suicidal, anyway.

So the main difference between Sayaka and Superman is that he has much more mental toughness than she does, but then he isn't a teenage girl with unrequited love issues either.

In addition to the above, Sayaka begins, as you alluded to, as a genki girl.

But her overall personality falls well within a standard range for a normal teenage girl, imo, and I think that makes her fall so much more poignant than if she was excessively flawed and/or very eccentric.


Quote:
I need to correct an assumption you seem to be making about this conversation, that I hate Sayaka. I'm nowhere near hating her, I can't even really hate that vile, manipulative, emotionless scheming bastard QB. There is a big difference between hating a character, and pointing out the flaws and mistakes that she made, and how that affected the flow of the story, and the emotions of the viewer.
That's fair. I do think you for the correction.


Quote:
Again, in my opinion, to gloss over those mistakes, failures and flaws by: 'She is just a teenage girl' or 'those are just normal things' or 'people are being too judgmental' do an incredible dis-service to such a beautiful tragic figure.

Coyote
However, this is where I disagree with you.

Sayaka is a 'beautiful tragic figure' because her fall arises from a believable and largely (if not entirely) understandable set of actions and choices that many a normal teenage girl would also succumb to if in Sayaka's shoes.
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Old 2011-07-23, 01:26   Link #3029
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by 00coyote
In my opinion, Sayaka is defined by the mistakes she made, and how she deals with the consequences of those mistakes builds her character up from what otherwise would be a shallow, one dimensional 'genki girl' stereotype.

Again, in my opinion, to gloss over those mistakes, failures and flaws by: 'She is just a teenage girl' or 'those are just normal things' or 'people are being too judgmental' do an incredible dis-service to such a beautiful tragic figure.
However, this is where I disagree with you.

Sayaka is a 'beautiful tragic figure' because her fall arises from a believable and largely (if not entirely) understandable set of actions and choices that many a normal teenage girl would also succumb to if in Sayaka's shoes.
Hmm. I'm not seeing the disagreement here. These last quoted paragraphs seem to have the same meaning. Let me re-word my last statements, and see if it is a disagreement.

What is a dis-service to Sayaka as a beautiful tragic figure, is when those who support her must first gloss over her flaws to make her more palatable. It's possible to be too judgmental, but it flattens the character out if you gloss too far the other way.

If you have to say: "She was just a teenager, she didn't mean to horribly murder those 2 lowlifes on the train, besides they deserved it anyway." (at least in the anime) or similar, in order for Sayaka to still be liked, that is where the dis-service starts.
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Old 2011-07-23, 05:13   Link #3030
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 00Coyote View Post

If you have to say: "She was just a teenager, she didn't mean to horribly murder those 2 lowlifes on the train, besides they deserved it anyway." (at least in the anime) or similar, in order for Sayaka to still be liked, that is where the dis-service starts.
Going by what's clearly shown in the anime itself, it's not conclusive if Sayaka killed those two guys on the train or not. I think this is a matter of viewer interpretation (regardless of what Gen and/or Shinbo intended to convey, by the way - If you want to make a murder scene undeniable, then you make it undeniable on the screen itself, which they didn't). If you interpret that scene as Sayaka killing those two guys, then so be it. I'm not going to argue against you, or sugarcoat it. But I myself have reached a point that I'm default skeptical of implied character death, in general.

So while I get your general point, your specific example supporting it is a bit of an odd one to me.
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Old 2011-07-23, 08:06   Link #3031
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My interpretation was that she didn't kill them, but finally realized that she is indeed doomed to fall with an attitude that has no place in this world except being a driving force into inevitable self destruction.
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Old 2011-07-23, 10:21   Link #3032
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I think her thoughts at those two were, "I'm saving the world for guys like these? Nooooooo" (give in to complete despair)
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Old 2011-07-23, 11:09   Link #3033
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
So while I get your general point, your specific example supporting it is a bit of an odd one to me.
To make sure the point gets across, I had to go with one of the more extreme examples.

Quote:
Going by what's clearly shown in the anime itself, it's not conclusive if Sayaka killed those two guys on the train or not. I think this is a matter of viewer interpretation (regardless of what Gen and/or Shinbo intended to convey, by the way - If you want to make a murder scene undeniable, then you make it undeniable on the screen itself, which they didn't). If you interpret that scene as Sayaka killing those two guys, then so be it. I'm not going to argue against you, or sugarcoat it. But I myself have reached a point that I'm default skeptical of implied character death, in general.
Default skeptical is a good strategy to have. For a story as brutally logical and straightforward* as Madoka Magica I don't think you have to be skeptical about too many things. Once the whole story was told many things were exactly as they appeared.


*The story was straightforward, the telling, pacing and presentation of that story (thankfully) was not straightforward and very interesting.
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Old 2011-07-24, 02:53   Link #3034
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To make sure the point gets across, I had to go with one of the more extreme examples.
I'm sorry, but it's not a good example for you to use.

Clearly not everybody interprets that scene the way that you do, and that has less to do with what people think of Sayaka than how the scene itself was presented.

Going strictly by what we saw on-camera, we have no definitive proof that anybody even died in that scene, let alone were killed.

Again, you can interpret it however you want, but it is open to interpretation.
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Old 2011-07-24, 06:34   Link #3035
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To add something while the thread was talking about Sayaka:

216 page academic book on Madoka: here

Spoiler:
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Old 2011-07-24, 12:56   Link #3036
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Has everyone came across this?
http://t.co/hsvLKAC
http://dragonfishfilms.com/blog/blog...-japan-relief/

I'm willing to donate more than $5 if they include Kyoko.
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Old 2011-07-24, 15:39   Link #3037
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Nitro+ confirms that they have 5-6 anime projects in the works, AND mentioned some kind of new development in Madoka.

http://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=308915

What do you guys think it is? Now they might be talking about the Madoka Novel, but who thinks it might be something else? Maybe an OVA series based on one of the manga spin-offs?
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Old 2011-07-24, 15:48   Link #3038
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I kind of doubt we'd get one of the spin-offs. The anime directors seemed to want to use the current characters, which rules out Kazumi. I don't know how many people would be interested in a failed loop with (explainable, but not explained) glaring plotholes, so that rules out Oriko.

With how popular slice-of-life fan-art, doujins, and even whatever you would call unofficially official doujins (like the one of Sakura/Kyouko by Ume Aoki), combined with their one statement of wanting to do exactly that, I'd say that's the most likely animated form we'd get. Of course, that's if it's an animated form and not a VN or LN.
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Old 2011-07-24, 16:03   Link #3039
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Nitro+ confirms that they have 5-6 anime projects in the works, AND mentioned some kind of new development in Madoka.

http://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=308915

What do you guys think it is? Now they might be talking about the Madoka Novel, but who thinks it might be something else? Maybe an OVA series based on one of the manga spin-offs?
Brixs will be shat if a Saya no Uta anime comes out.
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Old 2011-07-24, 16:38   Link #3040
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My body will never be ready if they release a Saya no Uta anime. They have to release it in OVA format if they ever make one. A TV series would probably be censored to hell.
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