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Old 2011-03-09, 00:21   Link #1621
MartianMage
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You guys are dismissing the fact that Kyoko never really wanted to kill Sayaka in the first place. You can't take everything Kyoko says at face value. If she really wanted to kill Sayaka she wouldn't have attempted to hospitalize her in episode 5.

Kyoko only wants to get Sayaka out of the way because she thinks she can't handle the job. Think back what she said to Madoka in ep9.

edited: ok I don't think I'm assuming too much... I think what I said is correct.
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Kyubey: Perhaps the same could be said of all religions.
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Kyubey: What is a loli? A miserable little pile of moe! But enough talk...have at you!
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Old 2011-03-09, 00:47   Link #1622
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The turning point for Kyoko is the revelation where they are all just puppets to their soul gem. At this point, Kyoko, Sayaka and Homura are all the equivalent of a new race/species (depending on how you gauge the value of mental vs physical transformation).

One thing about all human nature is that differences create chasms but also brings those of the same group together as they identify with each other. Note how Kyoko was so strident on telling Sayaka they are the only ones aka non human. Telling Sayaka her backstory was an attempt to bridge the gap and to convince Sayaka (and her own self) that her thinking of living only for themselves only is the correct path.

In the end i think Kyoko is "fixated" with Sayaka because Sayaka is so much like her younger self before her father killed everyone, when she was fighting for "good" and fluffy kittens and all that. She wanted to prevent Sayaka from suffering the same falls she did. Just befiore the end, her monologue was on "i understand how you feel" showing how deeply she identified with Sayaka (whether it was just all in her mind or they were really alike does not matter here)
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Old 2011-03-09, 00:49   Link #1623
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deconstructor View Post
Yes, I do.
And then you go on to quote a post that you made that totally contradicts your current post.

You said it yourself: You don't go from killing someone for two days and then befriending them the next.

Do you agree with your own statement here or not?


Quote:
I disagree with him.
If so, I disagree with you here. Strongly.


Quote:

My stance is that Kyoko has forgotten how to interact socially like a normal human being.
She knew enough about human social interactions in order to voice an incredibly vicious and effective threat, based on exploiting one person's love for another person. So I think that your stance here is pretty baseless.

Kyoko knows that Sayaka loves Kamijo.

She then threatens to remove all four of his limbs, which is... extremely cruel and harmful to say the least. Many would say that Kyoko was acting evil here.

Then one day later she wants to have a civil conversation with Sayaka, and become friends with her?

And you see nothing odd about this? You see nothing the least bit forced or contrived about this?


Quote:
She did not have any friends for a long, long time.
We don't know this. Sol Falling once speculated that Kyoko and Mami knew each other, and may have been friends.


Quote:
So it is natural for Kyoko to assault Sayaka and talk about Grief Seeds - that is all Kyoko has been doing for most of her life. Kyoko gave Sayaka the chance to escape, and let the witch's familiar feed on the innocent. It was Sayaka who decided to stand up and fight. At that point, Kyoko tried to communicate with Sayaka by force - either stay out of her way or die by her spear.
If it was simply a question of eliminating a threat to her Grief Seed supply, why the abject cruelty? Why threaten the love of Sayaka's life like that? What not just try to kill her, if it's all a matter of simple pragmatism?


Quote:
Battling was all Kyoko knew how to do, and the way she used to talk to people.
Not at all. Simple battling had nothing to do with the threats that Kyoko made to Sayaka. That threat displayed raw and severe contempt and/or hatred.
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Old 2011-03-09, 01:08   Link #1624
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
Yep. I was like "whoa @ this massive sudden change of character" Even though the things Kyoko learned was completely severe, the cynical may even view this as character derailment contrived to create a tragic event and leading them helpless for the night with the uber witch.

Aka, bullshit.
Okay, for argument's sake, let's say Kyoko's character development IS completely contrived for the sake of getting Urobuchi's tragedy angle to work. I completely disagree with this notion, but I'll play with this concept.

How would handling Kyoko's character more "naturally" avert any tragedy? If she was never "derailed" and continued to play the "antisocial violent girl" archetype after the Soul Gem revelation, she would likely kill Sayaka at some point. This would cause Kyoko to become Madoka's sworn enemy, easily forcing Madoka to jump into a contract with Kyubey. Given how often the fact that Madoka will have omnipotent powers when she's an MG is shoved down our throat, this doesn't really increase Kyoko's chances of survival, either.

By taking Kyoko in the direction that it did, the show made her a more sympathetic person. I don't understand why someone would complain over her becoming a better character.

Last edited by Hagoshod; 2011-03-09 at 01:19.
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Old 2011-03-09, 01:19   Link #1625
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hagoshod View Post
How would handling Kyoko's character more "naturally" avert any tragedy? If she was never "derailed" and continued to play the "antisocial violent girl" archetype after the Soul Geam revelation, she would likely kill Sayaka at some point. This would cause Kyoko to become Madoka's sworn enemy, easily forcing Madoka to jump into a contract with Kyubey. Given how often the fact that Madoka will have omnipotent powers when she's an MG is shoved down our throat, this doesn't really increase Kyoko's chances of survival, either.
She's an antisocial violent girl that's also not stupid but practical. After learning about the soul gems, it's just simply more logical to not randomly fling your weapon around.

What's not logical? Throwing away your life in a suicidal gambit with no reasonable chance of it working AND bringing Madoka who's a walking target along probably counts. Hell, even Kyubey's like "lol wut" to her plan.

By doing that and dying, she's screwed the rest of them over. Would it not be better to deal with the common threat first, and work things out?

Quote:
By taking Kyoko in the direction that it did, the show made her a more sympathetic character. I don't understand why someone would complain over Kyoko becoming a better character.
Because character development through stupidity is just not the way to go. Actually I thought she was fine until episode 9.
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Old 2011-03-09, 01:19   Link #1626
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I'm fine with the general direction that Kyoko's character took. She certainly was a more likable character in Episode 9 than she was in Episode 6.

I just think it could have been handled a fair bit better. Tone her down a bit in the early going and the transition is easier to buy. Make it calm efficient pragmatist to a caring person rediscovering earlier ideals, and not vicious psychotic to a caring person rediscovering earlier ideals. The latter is a fair bit harder to swallow, imo.
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Old 2011-03-09, 01:28   Link #1627
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
Hell, even Kyubey's like "lol wut" to her plan.
Kyubey was the entire reason she came up with her plan. He went out of the way to stress how Magical Girls "defy all logic" and are "unpredictable" in his conversation with her. This means Kyubey intentionally gave her false information, since Magical Girls are COMPLETELY predictable. Desperate girls are granted wishes, they're given powers, they use those powers to fight Witches, their powers become corrupted and they turn into Witches themselves, and more Magical Girls are required to fight them. It's a fixed logical system. Yeah, it defies real world logic, but so does practically everything in the story's universe. In its own context, there's nothing unpredictable about it.
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Old 2011-03-09, 01:29   Link #1628
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
And then you go on to quote a post that you made that totally contradicts your current post.

You said it yourself: You don't go from killing someone for two days and then befriending them the next.

Do you agree with your own statement here or not?
I quoted myself because I was trying to show you I understood the reasoning behind that argument. But that was merely me trying to walk in the reviewer's shoes. My real opinion is that Kyoko's personality flip is not unreasonable. Haven't you read my conversation with Solace?

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
She knew enough about human social interactions in order to voice an incredibly vicious and effective threat, based on exploiting one person's love for another person. So I think that your stance here is pretty baseless.
Incredibly vicious threats are what I consider very anti-social means of communication. I am suggesting Kyoko was detached from the world long enough to forget that people cooperate in society. (Or, they should anyway.) Knowing about how society works and being able to participate in normal speech are two different things.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Kyoko knows that Sayaka loves Kamijo.

She then threatens to remove all four of his limbs, which is... extremely cruel and harmful to say the least. Many would say that Kyoko was acting evil here.

Then one day later she wants to have a civil conversation with Sayaka, and become friends with her?

And you see nothing odd about this? You see nothing the least bit forced or contrived about this?
Yes, I would call Kyoko evil.
But Kyoko no longer considers such acts as despicable... it is merely part of her routine as a Puella Magi. She lets people die for her own sake. And she will certainly kill people for her own sake.

The transition between death battle to motivational speech did not feel forced when I first saw it. Logically, it probably is inconsistent of Kyoko to suddenly switch sides. However, it's not unconceivable... at the end of episode 6, Kyoko was holding a lifeless Sayaka by the throat. Kyoko could have killed Sayaka then, but chose not to attack Sayaka when she was helpless. Maybe she felt sympathy for Sayaka's ideals after hearing what Kyubey had to say.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
We don't know this. Sol Falling once speculated that Kyoko and Mami knew each other, and may have been friends.
Maybe, but Kyoko's violent personality leads me to believe she did not have any normal friends. She may have had Puella Magi friends, but that's different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
If it was simply a question of eliminating a threat to her Grief Seed supply, why the abject cruelty? Why threaten the love of Sayaka's life like that? What not just try to kill her, if it's all a matter of simple pragmatism?
Kyoko's story to Sayaka was also cruel and horrifying... she lives in a world of despair, and she speaks only the language of despair. Let us say she is not good with words to the point where she doesn't know any nice ones. The fact that Kyoko chose to try and threaten Sayaka before attempting to killing her shows that Kyoko wants to cooperate with Sayaka. Kyoko simply forgot how normal people talk.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Not at all. Simple battling had nothing to do with the threats that Kyoko made to Sayaka. That threat displayed raw and severe contempt and/or hatred.
Hatred, you say?
Kyoko looked angry that Sayaka was in her way, but did not hold her in hatred. Kyoko gave Sayaka a chance to run away, and even tried using hostage threats to make her leave. Unfortunately, that only made Sayaka angry as well.
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Old 2011-03-09, 01:39   Link #1629
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Originally Posted by Hagoshod View Post
Kyubey was the entire reason she came up with her plan. He went out of the way to stress how Magical Girls "defy all logic" and are "unpredictable" in his conversation with her. This means Kyubey intentionally gave her false information, since Magical Girls are COMPLETELY predictable. Desperate girls are granted wishes, they're given powers, they use those powers to fight Witches, their powers become corrupted and they turn into Witches themselves, and more Magical Girls are required to fight them. It's a fixed logical system. Yeah, it defies real world logic, but so does practically everything in the story's universe. In its own context, there's nothing unpredictable about it.
"Nope as far as I know" he says. But hey, since Magical girls aren't logical anyways, there might be a solution. Now, that vague section could be said by anyone. He told her basically nothing, but she buys it. (Tell me why they still trust the little critter.)

Ok, so there MIGHT be a solution. But any thing one could think of is being ill conceived. And gambling on this extremely small thread of hope (that was probably picked out of a hat) is worth losing everything else? And risking Madoka's life too on it? (Which is of course is something else annoying about the show).

This is no better than a compulsive gambler risking his life savings in the hopes of striking it huge. And same result, too.

The only way I can explain her actions is that she was so in shock from what happened to Sayaka that she became delusional and overridden with guilt and became desperate for a solution. It still doesn't reflect well on the storytelling to me. The net result is we waste a character who could have been developed further for a cheap tragedy and we gain the inevitable disaster of the next few episodes.

Unless they really are that stupid, then I have no comment.

Compare this to Sayaka, who's fall was pretty much set up as soon as she became an MG and thus makes complete sense, and you might see why I am not impressed with Kyoko's fate.
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Old 2011-03-09, 01:50   Link #1630
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deconstructor View Post
I quoted myself because I was trying to show you I understood the reasoning behind that argument.
Then what is your counter to that very same reasoning, if you don't agree with it yourself?

What is your counter to "You don't go from killing someone for two days and then befriending them the next."?

I don't think that you've effectively dealt with this very basic truism at all. Plot progression that goes against this very basic truism is at the very least odd.


Quote:
Incredibly vicious threats are what I consider very anti-social means of communication.
Yes, but in Kyoko's case, it shows an understanding of normal human social relations (i.e. such as romance). Kyoko needs to have that understanding in order to even think of the threat that she came up with.


Quote:
I am suggesting Kyoko was detached from the world long enough to forget that people cooperate in society.
How can you "forget that people cooperate in society" and yet remember that people engage in romances... which goes a fair bit beyond simple cooperation?


Quote:
Knowing about how society works and being able to participate in normal speech are two different things.
Kyoko is quite capable of participating in normal speech. She showed that even before the soul gem reveal, in her conversations with Homura.

Again, I think that your stance here is baseless.


Quote:
The transition between death battle to motivational speech did not feel forced when I first saw it. Logically, it probably is inconsistent of Kyoko to suddenly switch sides. However, it's not unconceivable... at the end of episode 6, Kyoko was holding a lifeless Sayaka by the throat. Kyoko could have killed Sayaka then, but chose not to attack Sayaka when she was helpless.
This could be due to simple shock at how Sayaka is now lifeless, and what it all means.


Quote:
Kyoko's story to Sayaka was also cruel and horrifying... she lives in a world of despair, and she speaks only the language of despair. Let us say she is not good with words to the point where she doesn't know any nice ones.
Again, she seemed reasonably cordial to Homura in Episode 7 to me. I just don't think that your broader argument holds water here.


Quote:
The fact that Kyoko chose to try and threaten Sayaka before attempting to killing her shows that Kyoko wants to cooperate with Sayaka.
That interpretation is certainly vastly different from my own. To me, it was crystal clear that Kyoko made the threat to goad Sayaka into fighting her again, certainly not to cooperate with her.


Quote:
Hatred, you say?
What type of emotion causes a person to threaten to horribly dismember the love of another person's life?

Call it something other than "hatred" if you will (I myself offered up "contempt" as an alternative), but it's an awfully strong emotion, whatever it is.
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Old 2011-03-09, 02:30   Link #1631
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Originally Posted by Deconstructor View Post
Anyway, I decided to give that article a look and see what the commotion was about. I respect the critique (and respectfully disagree). I find some of his points compelling. The author seems pissed at the immediate flip-flop of the character's personalities. Some people would call that character development, he calls it character inconsistency.
The main gripe I have with his rant is that he's simply exceptionally oblivious and claiming that the character developments were random without proper motivation, and that's just flat-out wrong. I'll simply quote parts of my reply from there:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar
Take Kyoko, for example. She was ready to take out Sayaka when she knew she had the advantage and everything under control. She already reasonably backed off when Homura interfered (who she couldn’t assess). And when she learned the truth behind the soul gem due to Madoka’s interference, she was clearly enraged. Under these circumstances, it’s perfectly logical to take a step back and mend fences. What remains is that she’s been in a comparable situation to Sayaka, but she drew consequences in a way which allowed her to live on. Sayaka on the other hand is on her way to self-destruction, as she can see, so she’s trying to be the senpai and help her through the worst, because Sayaka made her realize some truths she similarly held back then when she became a MG (ep9). All this has been explained with high credibility and in amazing depth for the short timeframe.

And your analysis of Sayaka’s development was downright terrible. Completely wrong. Let’s go through the worst part of it bit by bit.

> Apparently all of Sayaka’s rhetoric, where she declares that she has absolutely no doubts,
> breaks once Hitomi enters the picture and challenges her for Kyousuke.

Wrong, of course. There were early signs of angry righteousness when Sayaka scolded Madoka and cursed Homura after her first clash with Kyoko – she’s losing her balance. We see her disappointment in Kyousuke’s lack of consideration to tell her he’s out of the hospital, and how quickly she succumbed to Kyoko’s taunts. After the soul gem shock, we first see her yell at QB, and then we see her curled up in a fetal position in bed over it. She feels like a zombie, not a human anymore. And then, she sees Hitomi take away the guy she loves and sacrificed everything for. It was a long, gradual development. Not a single sudden development.

> Her world is shattered by this challenge, and she suddenly realizes that
> she really does want to have Kyousuke all to herself. No lead up.

Nonsense. Before she contracted, she was contemplating how Kyousuke would react if she used a wish to heal him. “Would he just thank me? Or maybe something more? … I’m such a terrible person”. And the issue “don’t wish for someone else, or it can backfire” was addressed MULTIPLE times, beginning with Mami.

> Not even once do we get an inkling of any doubt in her decision to save Kyousuke,
> and not once do we get any inkling that she’s really this selfish. Wait what?

Several times, actually. And it had a clear development: First, it was “This is the happiest moment in my life. I’ll never have regrets”, which then went to “It’s okay that I wished for him (even if it doesn’t benefit me). I have no regrets”, which then turned to “Hitomi is taking him away, and there is nothing I can do”, which then turned to “I’m such an idiot”.
Quote:
The following personality changes occur:

Homura went from making Madoka sad to being sad in front of Madoka.
No character "change". Rather shows that Homura is under alot of pressure and prone to crack.

Quote:
Kyoko went from killing Sayaka to dying for Sayaka.
For a reason (see above)

Quote:
Sayaka went from saving the innocent to killing the innocent.
For a bucketload of reasons (see above)

I have no problems if a reviewer doesn't like some of these developments. But if he claims that they weren't explained while they clearly were, it devalues his opinions. The whole article was way too faulty and oblivious to merit more than a "sheesh, you should really watch it first".
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Old 2011-03-09, 03:11   Link #1632
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Did you just say " Wish for all the witches in the world to die. "?Congratulation roriconfan!You just turned Madoka into a witch!See as part of the deal she still has her soul exctracted and now has a soulgem that blackens,so she's going to need grief seeds to purify it and she just got rid of her only source of grief seeds meaning she can't purify her soul gem so it will darken and she'll become a witch,she might choose to kill herself instead by destroying her gem.
That is of course if QB can actually grant you any wish,some say he's lying,we won't know for sure until the end of the show.
Nope, you are completely wrong. This wish will not turn her to a witch but to a magical girl. You assume Soul Gems get corrupted even when a magical girl never needs to transform? And without any witches around GUESS WHAT, she will never have to.
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Old 2011-03-09, 04:54   Link #1633
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Originally Posted by roriconfan View Post
Nope, you are completely wrong. This wish will not turn her to a witch but to a magical girl. You assume Soul Gems get corrupted even when a magical girl never needs to transform? And without any witches around GUESS WHAT, she will never have to.
Only goes to show you don't watch the show if you honestly think that's the case.
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Kyubey: It was not by my hand that I am once again given flesh. I was called here by humans who wish to pay me tribute.
Homura: Tribute? You steal girls' souls, and make them your slaves!
Kyubey: Perhaps the same could be said of all religions.
Homura: Your words are as empty as your soul! Lolis ill-needs a savior such as you!
Kyubey: What is a loli? A miserable little pile of moe! But enough talk...have at you!
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Old 2011-03-09, 08:30   Link #1634
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
And then you go on to quote... *snip*
Kyoko is like a chihuahua . She barks a lot, but her bark is worse than her bite. I wouldn't take Kyoko's comments about Kamijou seriously, but rather see it as symbolic of the way she's learned to protect herself from the vices of society.

Last edited by Solace; 2011-03-09 at 09:43. Reason: Cutting quotation down for size versus response.
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Old 2011-03-09, 09:48   Link #1635
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Originally Posted by roriconfan View Post
You assume Soul Gems get corrupted even when a magical girl never needs to transform?
Yes

Quote:
And without any witches around GUESS WHAT, she will never have to.
What makes you think that a magical girl has to transform when witches are around?
To fight them?If so what makes you think a magical girl has to fight them?
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Old 2011-03-09, 10:27   Link #1636
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taunts with sarcastic remarks are often the best when terrifying the newbies.
Coming from a game community that's hostile to the newcomers, I know what it's like.

Yes, Kyoko did threaten to "break off all 4 limbs". Now think of it from another point of view.

You see a noob using the first ability wrong and still hoping for the best. What's the best way to crush their idealistic naivety? Exposing to them that their hope are just empty air, and then laugh at them. Kyoko sees that what Sayaka truly wants and fail to wish that way, which is why she proceeds pointing out the discrepancy between the two in a cynical fashion. Considering her background, it's not hard to understand that she is able to use black humour in her everyday speech.
However instead of being deep in thoughts Sayaka decides to have another duel with Kyoko.

Why did we think that Kyoko is going to follow up with her taunt? Is it because they had been fighting almost to death in ep5? Sarcastic cynicism is fun if you know how to use it properly. In some way Kyoko is also wearing a mask, as a cynical person.



And I'm still waiting on the confirmation that a familiar by itself kills people.
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Old 2011-03-09, 10:33   Link #1637
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I think people are misunderstanding one aspect of the fight between Sayaka and Kyoko. Kyoko only said to let the familiar go so it could become a witch. She didn't outright attack Sayaka, but she definitely was testing her naivety.

But in the end, both provoked each other into the fight because in both their minds at the time, they thought their way was the best way.

She wasn't as bloodthirsty as some of you portrayed her to be. And Sayaka was willingly fighting her because she thought Kyoko was wrong.

Although her transition may have been a little "rough," I do feel Mentar pretty much hit all the points about her character well in his last post.

My biggest complaint about Kyoko was simply that there was no need to throw away her life the way she did, and this scene could've been handled much better. The hand of the writer was too obvious in this scene, where it was basically telling the viewers "Yep, she needs to die here for the plot" rather than making it flow naturally from the character, which was very possible.

Although given that this series is so short and they're constrained with time, it's a forgivable flaw.
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Old 2011-03-09, 11:16   Link #1638
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Although given that this series is so short and they're constrained with time, it's a forgivable flaw.
In the older days, series tends to be at 26 episodes or longer. The really old school series tends to go on forever (100+ is quite possible). 12-13 episode thing begins to be popular last couple of years (mostly due to budgetary issues).

I just wish there are more 26-episodes series nowadays. I think the creator has miscalculated and underestimated the popular response they get.
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Old 2011-03-09, 11:29   Link #1639
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It's not much the number of episodes that counts but rather the pacing. You could have atrociously paced series whether they are 12-13, 24-26, or over 30 episodes. Angel Beats, Nanoha StrikerS and Blood+ are three series of those mentioned formats that suffered greatly from poor pacing. I think that the writer AND the director contribute greatly to the quality of a series, as far as the pacing goes, the writer to give a direction to the plot and the characters and make it run smooth, the director for the best use of scenes and cinematography.

About Madoka, Shinbo and Urobochi, I personally think that they have been doing a good job, and managed to make what some people gripe about more forgivable than what we have seen in other series like those I named.
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Old 2011-03-09, 11:37   Link #1640
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheba
About Madoka, Shinbo and Urobochi, I personally think that they have been doing a good job, and managed to make what some people gripe about more forgivable than what we have seen in other series like those I named.
Yes, I agree with you. Some longer series sometimes have too much fluff, and suddenly go "Oh crap, the series needs to end!" There are quite few episodes that can be completely cut out in Angel Beats with no little impact to the story.

PS:
Oh crap.... We're too slow. Ridiculous speed.... Ludicrous speed!!!!! (Somehow I just wanted to say that o_O)
MaiNoKen is offline   Reply With Quote
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despair, hope, madoka magica, magical girl, urobuchi gen

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