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Old 2011-03-09, 14:50   Link #1641
Deconstructor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Then what is your counter to that very same reasoning, if you don't agree with it yourself?

What is your counter to "You don't go from killing someone for two days and then befriending them the next."?

I don't think that you've effectively dealt with this very basic truism at all. Plot progression that goes against this very basic truism is at the very least odd.
My counter is you fail to consider Kyoko may have wanted to be Sayaka's friend after their first meeting. Kyoko fights Sayaka because she wanted more Grief Seeds, not because Kyoko had previously planned on killing Sayaka.

The first battle, Kyoko seemed mad at Sayaka for getting in the way. Afterward, Kyoko was the one who taunted Sayaka into another battle - they had a hostile yet controlled discussion. It is Kyoko who sought out Sayaka. If Kyoko really hated Sayaka, she would have transformed and murdered her on the spot. The second battle, Kyoko looked like she wanted to fight Sayaka for enjoyment; she was smiling. After the Soul Gem revelation, Kyoko realized that fighting was counter-productive, and actually tried making friends with Sayaka.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Yes, but in Kyoko's case, it shows an understanding of normal human social relations (i.e. such as romance). Kyoko needs to have that understanding in order to even think of the threat that she came up with.
There is no evidence to suggest that Kyoko can function in typical society. She lives alone, eats stolen food, and lets people die for her own sake. I am saying Kyoko knows about society, but is an outcast. The way she survives - stealing, threats, and violence.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
What type of emotion causes a person to threaten to horribly dismember the love of another person's life?

Call it something other than "hatred" if you will (I myself offered up "contempt" as an alternative), but it's an awfully strong emotion, whatever it is.
Self-interest. Kyoko stated she was only doing what was in her best interests - if threats can avoid fighting, then Kyoko will use them. Less trouble for her.

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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
No character "change". Rather shows that Homura is under alot of pressure and prone to crack.
The reviewer has a problem with Homura being cool for 7 full episodes, then cracking simply because Madoka nearly made the contract (which Madoka has done before). Take the battle between Kyoko and Sayaka - Homura calmly walked in, broke up the fight, and prevented Madoka from contracting. All without collapsing in tears. The reviewer doesn't buy that Homura would cry over another Kyubey encounter, since that is what Homura came here to stop.

Last edited by Deconstructor; 2011-03-09 at 15:02.
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Old 2011-03-09, 15:18   Link #1642
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I know you are going to hate me (more) for writting this...

IF every witch was once a girl and IF there are so MANY magical gilrs in so MANY cities defeating so MANY witches, each one having killed SEVERAL people...

Shouldn't the tv or the school or the parents noticed that and done SOMETHING ?

...Yeah I know, it doesn't matter how many people died or if the people besides the 5 girls matter or if nothing makes sense because it's all just fiction. They make wishes come true and shotguns appear out of their skirts and aliens defeat entropy with energy harvested by psycho lolis so ok.

And seriously, being out of character while crying or going amok counts as character development?

You are going to hate me (more) XD
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Old 2011-03-09, 15:30   Link #1643
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Well, your "if"-scenario fails because the primary way for witches to come into existance is to arise from familiars, not Magical Girls. And the general idea is that there's less than a handful MGs per territory, however big that territory that is.
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Old 2011-03-09, 15:42   Link #1644
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Originally Posted by roriconfan View Post
I know you are going to hate me (more) for writting this...

IF every witch was once a girl and IF there are so MANY magical gilrs in so MANY cities defeating so MANY witches, each one having killed SEVERAL people...

Shouldn't the tv or the school or the parents noticed that and done SOMETHING ?
Witches' victims die of suicides and accidents. That happens all the time all around the world. Plus, the witches are invisible to normal people unless they get caught in the witches' mazes, and if that happens they just don't get out alive.

So no, it's impossible to notice the existence of witches unless you're a magical girl.

BTW, you really aren't watching the series, are you??
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Old 2011-03-09, 16:01   Link #1645
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deconstructor View Post
My counter is you fail to consider Kyoko may have wanted to be Sayaka's friend after their first meeting.
There's no "failure" in choosing to not consider an absolutely absurd idea like the one that you're proposing here.

Kyoko wants to be Sayaka's "friend" so she threatens Sayaka with the lovely mental image of Kamijo being totally dismembered.

Kyoko's not some dumb, barely sentient animal, as you seem to be stretching your argument towards here. The girl at least knew how to show some modicum of genuine friendliness to another person (i.e. offering pocky to Homura during their conversation after Kyoko played DDR, IIRC).


Quote:

Kyoko fights Sayaka because she wanted more Grief Seeds, not because Kyoko had previously planned on killing Sayaka.
Kyoko openly stated an intention to kill Sayaka. She clearly had that intent, *and* came close to achieving it, otherwise Homura would not have needed to make a last minute save.


Quote:

The first battle, Kyoko seemed mad at Sayaka for getting in the way. Afterward, Kyoko was the one who taunted Sayaka into another battle - they had a hostile yet controlled discussion. It is Kyoko who sought out Sayaka. If Kyoko really hated Sayaka, she would have transformed and murdered her on the spot.
You've honestly never read or watched a cold revenge plot play out where one character hates another character and hence tries to put that character through a living hell, as opposed to a quick death?

A quick assassination is merciful compared to some courses of action. So to say that "Character A didn't go for a quick assassination of Character B so Character A must not hate Character B" is a totally invalid argument.


Quote:

The second battle, Kyoko looked like she wanted to fight Sayaka for enjoyment; she was smiling.
Doing something for enjoyment, and doing something out of hatred, are not mutually exclusive. Why do you think the popular phrase "Love to Hate" exists?


Quote:
There is no evidence to suggest that Kyoko can function in typical society.
When it comes to work/school, you could be right. However, Kyoko displayed plenty capacity for normal social interactions in how she talked with Homura in Episode 7, before the soul gem revelation, and before she threatened Sayaka the way that she did.


Quote:
Self-interest. Kyoko stated she was only doing what was in her best interests - if threats can avoid fighting, then Kyoko will use them.
Yes, because the perfect way to avoid fighting is to threaten a courageous girl's object of complete infatuation. You have a girl who's already shown a willingness to engage you in mortal combat, and you try to get her to not fight you by threatening the boy that she has consistently put ahead of herself.

I'd honestly rather think that Kyoko is a complete psychopath than to think that she's this stupid.
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Last edited by Triple_R; 2011-03-09 at 16:25.
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Old 2011-03-09, 18:50   Link #1646
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Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
It's not much the number of episodes that counts but rather the pacing. You could have atrociously paced series whether they are 12-13, 24-26, or over 30 episodes. Angel Beats, Nanoha StrikerS and Blood+ are three series of those mentioned formats that suffered greatly from poor pacing. I think that the writer AND the director contribute greatly to the quality of a series, as far as the pacing goes, the writer to give a direction to the plot and the characters and make it run smooth, the director for the best use of scenes and cinematography.

About Madoka, Shinbo and Urobochi, I personally think that they have been doing a good job, and managed to make what some people gripe about more forgivable than what we have seen in other series like those I named.
Agreed. I'm pretty sure Madoka Magica is already close if not already to "legendary" status. It's like arguing with an Asian parent whether or not 92.97% constitutes an A.
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Old 2011-03-09, 19:04   Link #1647
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
There's no "failure" in choosing to not consider an absolutely absurd idea like the one that you're proposing here.

Kyoko wants to be Sayaka's "friend" so she threatens Sayaka with the lovely mental image of Kamijo being totally dismembered.

Kyoko's not some dumb, barely sentient animal, as you seem to be stretching your argument towards here. The girl at least knew how to show some modicum of genuine friendliness to another person (i.e. offering pocky to Homura during their conversation after Kyoko played DDR, IIRC).
I have no clue why you would associate stupidity with Kyoko. She lives doing the most efficient thing possible. In the case you recite, Kyoko wanted to dissuade Sayaka from fighting by issuing a grave threat. I am suggesting that Kyoko prefers to use violence over discussion, but that does not make Kyoko a dumb animal. It would be dangerous for Kyoko to make an enemy out of Homura, so communicates in another way. Even then, Kyoko is not particularly social, talking while playing Dance Dance Revolution in an arcade...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Kyoko openly stated an intention to kill Sayaka. She clearly had that intent, *and* came close to achieving it, otherwise Homura would not have needed to make a last minute save.
Sayaka was the one who decided to fight Kyoko, rather than stay out of Kyoko's way. Kyoko's threat was either leave or see Kyosuke torn to pieces; Sayaka decided to fight. Of course, Kyoko is going to fight back until Sayaka gives up. After Kyoko beat Sayaka to the ground, Kyoko was about to leave to chase the familiar. Unfortunately, Sayaka taunted Kyoko, nearly leading to Sayaka's death.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
You've honestly never read or watched a cold revenge plot play out where one character hates another character and hence tries to put that character through a living hell, as opposed to a quick death?

A quick assassination is merciful compared to some courses of action. So to say that "Character A didn't go for a quick assassination of Character B so Character A must not hate Character B" is a totally invalid argument.
It is not just the fact that Kyoko did not kill Sayaka on the roof. They had a discussion and their ideals clashed. But if they really hated each other, they would have transformed on the spot and fought. The fact that they could communicate on a personal level suggests that they were becoming less hostile towards each other.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Doing something for enjoyment, and doing something out of hatred, are not mutually exclusive. Why do you think the popular phrase "Love to Hate" exists?
I think Kyoko loves fighting, regardless of whether she hates the enemy or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Yes, because the perfect way to avoid fighting is to threaten a courageous girl's object of complete infatuation. You have a girl who's already shown a willingness to engage you in mortal combat, and you try to get her to not fight you by threatening the boy that she has consistently put ahead of herself.
It usually works. Kyoko was trying to scare Sayaka by putting pictures of a dismembered Kyosuke in her mind. Please note that Kyoko asked for Sayaka to leave the familiar alone. When Sayaka refused, the threat came in.

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I'd honestly rather think that Kyoko is a complete psychopath than to think that she's this stupid.
Don't lower my argument to either of those descriptions.
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Old 2011-03-09, 19:26   Link #1648
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Originally Posted by taofd
I'm pretty sure Madoka Magica is already close if not already to "legendary" status.
In some statistical measures, Madoka Magica is already "legendary":

1) It is now the all time leader in number of 2ch threads for a 1-season anime (590+ and counting vs ~460 by the first Haruhi season; however, the total number of Haruhi threads is higher)

2) The current record for first week sales in anime BD in Japan is held by the last volume (vol #6) of Bakemonogatari (~51000). Current estimated reservations of volume #1 of Madoka Magica (due 03/30/2011) have already topped that number (60000+). With 95% confidence, current reservations of vol 1 is at least ~58000, with an average estimate of ~63000.

Info source:

Last edited by MaiNoKen; 2011-03-09 at 19:45. Reason: Fix some Engrish
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Old 2011-03-09, 19:42   Link #1649
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Legendary one-time status that is. There is very little replay value in a show which consists mostly of mystery and shock value.

FMAB and LOGH still have the best long-series pacing overall and stories complicating enough to deserve a second run.
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Old 2011-03-09, 19:47   Link #1650
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Personally i think this show has great replay value, even if people watched it simply because of the reasons you listed (Which IMO, is not the only reason people watch MAdoka). That's because viewers who like it will want to go back and try to catch the little details.

Just alone in this season, there have been many people rewatching the episodes to catch every little thing to back up their arguments.
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Old 2011-03-09, 20:11   Link #1651
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As a fan of both LOGH (I watched the whole 100+ episodes :P) and Madoka, I think it is wrong to compare LOGH with Madoka directly as they are of different genre - it is like comparing Romance of Three Kingdoms with Alfred Hitchcock.

As far as overall quality, they are both very good and highly re-watchable (and each series have their own share of problems as well). So let us all be happy, and enjoy what we prefer to enjoy.

Anyway, as a Homura fan myself... Let's just hope Homura don't end up like Yang Wen-Li (minor spoilers)
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Old 2011-03-09, 20:18   Link #1652
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Just alone in this season, there have been many people rewatching the episodes to catch every little thing to back up their arguments.
Not me; I didn't bother to watch it not even once for my arguements
... Kidding; of course I did. I just focused on what is going on and not with all that mambo jumbo psedoscientific wishing stuff.

I can tell you this. If the show ends like Mai-Hime, people will hate it and the perm score will drop to 6.

On the other hand, I wonder what else is there for the show to ... show in the next 3 episodes. Homura will try to fight the witch, Madoka will turn to magical girl to save her, she will wish something weird and the end.

...Ok I am not saying this will happen. Just saying what should not because it would be too expected for a show that throws in aliens and entropy. My guess is that the entire world is Madoka's maze and Homura entered her Matrix in order to save her from destroying the real world. Kinda like the story of Persona 2 if anyone remembers.

And now that I think about it (oh no, here comes the hate) what was Homura's wish? To be able to time travel or time freeze? She can't have wished for both. And if she is from the future, where is her present self?

Oh, here comes that theory again; this world is an immitation of the real world where Madoka repeats her life in a cheerier way. I bet her real life mom is dead or a bitch who hits her. And I bet...

...ok wrong topic to say all that. I just hope it will NOT be what I wrote at first and something closer to what I wrote just now. Because if it is so, then even I will excuse all the mambo jumbo and give the series a good mark. Heck, if it is all a matrix, anything can happen. And the realism part is what alienated me in the first place.
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Old 2011-03-09, 20:19   Link #1653
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Originally Posted by roriconfan View Post
Legendary one-time status that is. There is very little replay value in a show which consists mostly of mystery and shock value.

FMAB and LOGH still have the best long-series pacing overall and stories complicating enough to deserve a second run.
Do you pay attention to the fandom and the show? Homura has been dropping hint towards who she really is and when the truth is reveal EVERYONE is going to rewatch the series again to spot those hints.
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Old 2011-03-09, 20:19   Link #1654
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In keeping on topic, Seitsuki gave a partial translation of a politician's commentary about the show.

Spoiler:


Like the others, I recommend closer rewatching to get the gist of what's really going on.
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Old 2011-03-09, 20:33   Link #1655
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Originally Posted by sa547
In keeping on topic, Seitsuki gave a partial translation of a politician's commentary about the show.
I read the commentary, I will add some translations (feel free to cross post these, and let the other person knows):
Spoiler for Translations:


Spoiler for More :P:


Spoiler for Last part:

Last edited by MaiNoKen; 2011-03-09 at 20:51.
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Old 2011-03-09, 20:42   Link #1656
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In keeping on topic, Seitsuki gave a partial translation of a politician's commentary about the show.

Like the others, I recommend closer rewatching to get the gist of what's really going on.
oh lolz
is this guy finding similarities between the role of Mahou shoujo in madoka to the role of politicians in real life?

You know, it's funny coz that might just be the case here. XD

hilarious stuff
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Old 2011-03-09, 20:56   Link #1657
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He saw parallels between the show and of the current Japanese political scene.

He seems that he saw a piece of himself and other politicians right there, realizing just how much power the voters have placed upon them, but in consequence they have to live a public life and their actions and the use of political power under intense scrutiny, thus making politicians much different from their constituents.

As with magical powers, political powers involves much tradeoff to be made.
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Old 2011-03-09, 21:03   Link #1658
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I find the last part of the blog very good, and makes me think about quite a few things.

Homura tells Madoka that she must be herself. It is loaded with the meaning: "You must remain with your childhood and youthful ideals." When one grow up and accept the meaning of adult life, one shall fall to a different life - witch, cruelty and reality of life.

I actually have never considered that interpretation before I read that blog...

PS: As a bit of extra information:
The poster is Tanaka Ken - a district official of Edokawa - one of the wards of Tokyo.

Last edited by MaiNoKen; 2011-03-09 at 21:15.
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Old 2011-03-09, 21:52   Link #1659
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Ah. Tanaka Ken. He is famous for being quite of animation fan despite being politician.

It was very good read. Thanks.
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Old 2011-03-09, 21:59   Link #1660
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Tanaka Ken has a follow-up post:

http://www.t-ken.jp/diary/20110309/

I can try to translate it tomorrow.
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