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Old 2010-11-08, 07:52   Link #261
Haak
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Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
Heh. Seems like we have a chicken or the egg dilemma on our hands... And I will thus firmly stand on the side of the egg
On a side note, that's not actually much of a dilemna anymore since we now know that Chickens evolved from Reptiles which have been laying eggs for a lot longer.

So the egg really did come first.
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Old 2010-11-08, 08:07   Link #262
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Originally Posted by Nobodyman9 View Post
Oh yes, thank you. Upon closer inspection you'll see that Motoi's dad wears glasses, has his spiky hair bunched up and wears a distinctly different, but nonetheless equally dull, uniform. Master of original design, that Kishi.
Your original point was that it was the same character. It is not.

Quote:
Again, yes thank you. I did just realize that chakra no longer has any rules or limitations, and is now effectively magic and can do whatever is convenient for the plot, and it's been that way at least since Sasuke's asspull victory against Deidara. I don't know why I didn't realize it sooner.
How is that different to Reiatsu, or Haki, or Ki? There's no way to properly quantify these things and they are mentioned when relevant. It takes a whole lot of reiatsu for a 12 year old Naruto to pull off his first summon, but for the post-time skip heroes, that's like a walk in the park. I wouldn't write off the regenerative power of the white snake that Kabuto has as trivial, either.
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Old 2010-11-08, 08:56   Link #263
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Originally Posted by Frenchie View Post
Your original point was that it was the same character. It is not.



How is that different to Reiatsu, or Haki, or Ki? There's no way to properly quantify these things and they are mentioned when relevant. It takes a whole lot of reiatsu for a 12 year old Naruto to pull off his first summon, but for the post-time skip heroes, that's like a walk in the park. I wouldn't write off the regenerative power of the white snake that Kabuto has as trivial, either.
Haki is quiet specific, whereas chakra has evolved from 'energy bar' to 'mana bar' Before it was only the energy needed to perform ninjitsu, then the ninjutsu became magic spells whereas haki is the more focused and so far hasn't been used in such absurd ways as chakra.
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Old 2010-11-08, 11:18   Link #264
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Originally Posted by Nobodyman9 View Post
Oh yes, thank you. Upon closer inspection you'll see that Motoi's dad wears glasses, has his spiky hair bunched up and wears a distinctly different, but nonetheless equally dull, uniform. Master of original design, that Kishi.
More simply put, you were wrong but can't bare to aknowledge it because you are complaining for the sake of complaining more than anything else.

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Again, yes thank you. I did just realize that chakra no longer has any rules or limitations, and is now effectively magic and can do whatever is convenient for the plot, and it's been that way at least since Sasuke's asspull victory against Deidara. I don't know why I didn't realize it sooner.
Probably because you are currently into a ridiculous and random rant mode.
There has never been any real rule or limitation to chakra and jutsu save for the fancy of the author. The manga started with a teenager creating a thousand of clone out of thin air, that was soon followed by people moving hundreds of tons of water with their mind, then teleporting through glasses made of magical ice and summoning building-sized talking creatures as a matter of course.
The Shounen genre isn't big on realism, particulary not when energy and power level are concerned.

I might add that for all of this you chose to complain about a jutsu which for once does have a price but, again, failled to aknowledge your mistake in order to complain some more.
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Originally Posted by Nosauz View Post
Haki is quiet specific, whereas chakra has evolved from 'energy bar' to 'mana bar' Before it was only the energy needed to perform ninjitsu, then the ninjutsu became magic spells whereas haki is the more focused and so far hasn't been used in such absurd ways as chakra.
Ninja in Naruto have always been battle-wizard, in fact Kishimoto originally thought about making a story about wizard before Harry Potter got big and it was decided that Naruto would be about ninja instead.
Besides the universe of One Pieces doesn't make any kind of sense either as far as power is concerned, I doubt you'd manage to explain how eating a magic fruit can allow Enel to create gigantic lighting strikes. Or how a few hundreds puch-ups under X gravity gives some people the power to blast planets for that matters. It's just the way it is.
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
On a side note, that's not actually much of a dilemna anymore since we now know that Chickens evolved from Reptiles which have been laying eggs for a lot longer.

So the egg really did come first.
Hence me siding with the egg... But then you can still wonder what was chakra's pterodactyl
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Old 2010-11-08, 12:10   Link #265
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Besides the universe of One Pieces doesn't make any kind of sense either as far as power is concerned, I doubt you'd manage to explain how eating a magic fruit can allow Enel to create gigantic lighting strikes. Or how a few hundreds puch-ups under X gravity gives some people the power to blast planets for that matters. It's just the way it is.
1) it changes his body into lightning
2) they have natural ability to release their bodys Ki into explosive blasts, training makes them stronger, increases that energy, thus bigger explosions, enough to take out planets


how do Marvel/DC work for that matter


I do agree that chakra in Naruto pretty much can do anything .. chakra + genes
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Old 2010-11-08, 12:15   Link #266
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Where at the stage of trying to justify planet destroying energy beams?
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Old 2010-11-08, 12:37   Link #267
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Where at the stage of trying to justify planet destroying energy beams?
No we are still at the stage where we are trying to justify 80 year old men flying while carrying a 100,000 tonne turtle...

Realistically, this is the most "wtf" moment in the series .
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Old 2010-11-08, 13:15   Link #268
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No we are still at the stage where we are trying to justify 80 year old men flying while carrying a 100,000 tonne turtle...

Realistically, this is the most "wtf" moment in the series .
He didn't need 5 chapters to power up just to achieve that strength either
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Old 2010-11-08, 14:34   Link #269
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
No we are still at the stage where we are trying to justify 80 year old men flying while carrying a 100,000 tonne turtle...

Realistically, this is the most "wtf" moment in the series .
That's the same ability that Gaara and Deidara have, it seems that earth type ability can manipulate the weight. So it wasn't so much of a wtf moment for me as there were many other such moments
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Old 2010-11-08, 15:03   Link #270
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Yamato making a waterfall out of nothing and Naruto slicing it in half was more weird to me than an old man lifting a turtle (however heavy )

...not to mention Orochimaru's loveable regurgitation of his own self, like what, 5 times?
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Old 2010-11-08, 15:07   Link #271
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nowledge your mistake in order to complain some more.

Ninja in Naruto have always been battle-wizard, in fact Kishimoto originally thought about making a story about wizard before Harry Potter got big and it was decided that Naruto would be about ninja instead.
Besides the universe of One Pieces doesn't make any kind of sense either as far as power is concerned, I doubt you'd manage to explain how eating a magic fruit can allow Enel to create gigantic lighting strikes. Or how a few hundreds puch-ups under X gravity gives some people the power to blast planets for that matters. It's just the way it is.
One piece has always erred on the fantastical, and everything has used the fantasy aspect of an interesting take of a fictional pirate age, whereas naruto tries to play it straight sometimes, and sometimes it plays to fantastical. This is the problem with naruto, it's schizophrenic about what it wants to be. there are times when "cells" and biology play a part, "naruto's" fuin rasegan shuuriken where kishimoto used a realistic solution to wipe away kakuzo's multiple lifes and then there is the "pressure point" neeji antics where clearly kishimoto is playing with things bound by rules, also at the begining of the second part when kakashi, naruto and sakura fight, where naruto needs to kagebunshin to change his momentun and direction in air, is a play on the real, whereas Oda never says that one piece is relatable to this world other than the humaniod characters because then again there are talkign animals, mermaids, fishmen, etc so there is a difference in refrence of the story.
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Old 2010-11-08, 15:41   Link #272
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Originally Posted by Nosauz View Post
One piece has always erred on the fantastical, and everything has used the fantasy aspect of an interesting take of a fictional pirate age, whereas naruto tries to play it straight sometimes, and sometimes it plays to fantastical. This is the problem with naruto, it's schizophrenic about what it wants to be. there are times when "cells" and biology play a part, "naruto's" fuin rasegan shuuriken where kishimoto used a realistic solution to wipe away kakuzo's multiple lifes and then there is the "pressure point" neeji antics where clearly kishimoto is playing with things bound by rules, also at the begining of the second part when kakashi, naruto and sakura fight, where naruto needs to kagebunshin to change his momentun and direction in air, is a play on the real, whereas Oda never says that one piece is relatable to this world other than the humaniod characters because then again there are talkign animals, mermaids, fishmen, etc so there is a difference in refrence of the story.
One Piece is the same, when it comes to certain fantastical things that happens the author tries to apply real world science to explain it (Like Luffy gears, Nami Clima weapon, Etc) the only thing that seems to have a complete magical nature are the Devil Fruits themselves, the power they give are all based and limited to real world rules (Rubber not conducting energy, Lava been stronger than Fire, etc) ,

All the shonnen manga I have read always uses real life science to explain most of the stuff that goes on in their universe.
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Old 2010-11-08, 15:54   Link #273
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
No we are still at the stage where we are trying to justify 80 year old men flying while carrying a 100,000 tonne turtle...

Realistically, this is the most "wtf" moment in the series .
-Are we then going to accept the Rikudo Sennin building a moon out of the earth and hurling them into space in order to entrap a 10-tailed...thing, as realistic then ? Or say Nagato and Kabuto's abilities to revive the dead to seemingly without limit?
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Old 2010-11-08, 15:54   Link #274
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This last chapter seems to have brought a lot of fans back to Naruto. Cause there is a lot of discussion on 2ch. There were very little for the past 30 plus chapters as it seems fans were bored with the manga. Fanservice has its benefits.

Anyway it seems people think this chapter will have.

1. Gaara makes epic speech.
2. A lot of Division character interaction.
3. Sensors and intelligence move out.
4. More Naruto training.
5. Chaos shown in the smaller villages as people run away from Zetsu clones.
6. Kabuto does something sneaky.
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Old 2010-11-08, 15:56   Link #275
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Sorry for the OT.

One Piece is the same, when it comes to certain fantastical things that happens the author tries to apply real world science to explain it (Like Luffy gears, Nami Clima weapon, Etc) the only thing that seems to have a complete magical nature are the Devil Fruits themselves, the power they give are all based and limited to real world rules (Rubber not conducting energy, Lava been stronger than Fire, etc) ,

All the shonnen manga I have read always uses real life science to explain most of the stuff that goes on in their universe.
Well your right on Gear 2 and the Clima attack, and the shells in the skypeia arc, but it is not so prevalent and the setting and story also the art design lead to a more acceptiong of the outlandish and fantastical nature of the story in one piece I don't know, now that I think about it, it's a little bit harder to put my finger on what makes naruto seem more ludicrous. I don't know, i think it has to more to do with this recent chapter where kabuto basically rezzed everybody from the last generation, I dunno. Oh well i really need to go reread these things, it's been at least a year and a half since i read op in its entirety.
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Old 2010-11-08, 16:07   Link #276
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OP seems more fantastical given it size; OP covers what is happening in an entire planet and the moon, whereas Naruto is based on a continent.

Why some people might feel irritated on some stuff that Happens in Naruto (aside from the Sharigan)? is the misconception on Chakra depletion, Chakra been completed depleted in a Ninja is just a plot devise to create suspense, or to create a limit that is bound to be broken in future. It is not intended so we can put a finger on to why X thing happening is not possible.

There were really no limit created on how Many guys Oro could summon, heck, He made Edo Tensey to summon 3 guys, plus the giant snake, and it didn’t seem to be a big deal for him.
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Old 2010-11-08, 16:15   Link #277
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There are things like chakra reserves and chakra capacity, although they have never been given a cap, they just get larger with training. This was done to complement the initial distinction between ninja ranks, only not applying to jinchuuriki and -kage level ninjas (especially old ones, who knows how many years of training they've had). Shikamaru is known to burn his chakra fast, for example, and Kakashi usually faces the same problem (rai-bunshin, MS or even plain sharingan back in part 1).
Orochimaru also counts as old, since he was almost immortal and had lived as much as Jiraiya and Tsunade (both at kage level upon their introduction), so nothing should be a big deal for these guys.
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Old 2010-11-08, 16:23   Link #278
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Old 2010-11-08, 17:10   Link #279
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How is that different to Reiatsu, or Haki, or Ki? There's no way to properly quantify these things and they are mentioned when relevant.
-Chakra is an energy source that's been around pretty much since day one. It was well established that ninjas are only able to perform ninjutsu and genjutsu by tapping into and using their chakra reserves. When their tank is on empty, they're pretty much fucked.

-Haki only came into play relatively recently in One Piece and it's never been tied to a person's ability to fight. Not everyone has Haki. Those who have and can manipulate Haki tend to have a distinct advantage over those who don't, but it's never been a necessity. Luffy was doing quite well for a while without it.

-Ki, from what I can remember, is pretty much the same as chakra. You need to be able to fly and shoot energy beams and all that stuff, but the difference is that Toriyama was mostly fair about it. Also, Ki wasn't implemented into summons, genjutsus, and eyeball powers.

-Reiatsu I'm not even gonna touch on, cause it's an even bigger mess than Chakra.

Quote:
It takes a whole lot of reiatsu for a 12 year old Naruto to pull off his first summon, but for the post-time skip heroes, that's like a walk in the park. I wouldn't write off the regenerative power of the white snake that Kabuto has as trivial, either.
Got no problem with older Naruto pulling off larger summons (what was that? B-rank? A-rank?). What I do have a problem with are extremely powerful S-rank jutsus, which were established to be quite taxing even for the most experienced ninjas, being pulled off with seemingly no consequences whatsoever.

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More simply put, you were wrong but can't bare to aknowledge it because you are complaining for the sake of complaining more than anything else.
Motoi's dad and the other guy are two different characters. There. I was wrong. I admit it. And it was very foolish of me to confuse the guy whose hair looks very similar to Motoi's with the guy who got one panel of screen time.

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There has never been any real rule or limitation to chakra and jutsu save for the fancy of the author.
And you honestly see no problem with that?

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The manga started with a teenager creating a thousand of clone out of thin air, that was soon followed by people moving hundreds of tons of water with their mind, then teleporting through glasses made of magical ice and summoning building-sized talking creatures as a matter of course.
Those examples are all from part one. You know, when Naruto was good, and the energy and power balance was relatively fair. Also, those examples were used by relatively powerful ninja, and Naruto when he was tapping into the Kyuubi's power.

Quote:
The Shounen genre isn't big on realism, particulary not when energy and power level are concerned.
It all depends on how well the author manages the story. There are many other series that have been fair about power levels and energy.

Quote:
Ninja in Naruto have always been battle-wizard, in fact Kishimoto originally thought about making a story about wizard before Harry Potter got big and it was decided that Naruto would be about ninja instead.
Yeah, because ninjas and wizards are SO totally the same thing.

Quote:
Besides the universe of One Pieces doesn't make any kind of sense either as far as power is concerned, I doubt you'd manage to explain how eating a magic fruit can allow Enel to create gigantic lighting strikes. Or how a few hundreds puch-ups under X gravity gives some people the power to blast planets for that matters. It's just the way it is.
I don't care what kind of rules a fantasy world sets up. Characters can get their power from chakra, ki, magic fruits or magic toenails for all I care. What pisses me off is when the author starts contradicting the rules he/she has set up without any sort of explanation.

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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
Sorry for the OT.

One Piece is the same, when it comes to certain fantastical things that happens the author tries to apply real world science to explain it (Like Luffy gears, Nami Clima weapon, Etc) the only thing that seems to have a complete magical nature are the Devil Fruits themselves, the power they give are all based and limited to real world rules (Rubber not conducting energy, Lava been stronger than Fire, etc) ,

All the shonnen manga I have read always uses real life science to explain most of the stuff that goes on in their universe.
Yeah, because Nami's Clima Tact could totally be useable in real life.

"Of course! Don't you know anything about science?"

One Piece uses what I like to call "exaggerated physics." Oda takes certain laws of physics from the real world and, with some creative liberties, applies them to the fantasy world of One Piece. Though the Clima Tact would never work in real life, it does establish basis for how it works, which is somewhat familiar to our own universe.

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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
Why some people might feel irritated on some stuff that Happens in Naruto (aside from the Sharigan)? is the misconception on Chakra depletion, Chakra been completed depleted in a Ninja is just a plot devise to create suspense, or to create a limit that is bound to be broken in future. It is not intended so we can put a finger on to why X thing happening is not possible.
That is literally one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. When your tank is running on empty it doesn't just magically fill up with gas just because you want it to. A ninja using a high-level jutsu when they're low on chakra makes no sense and is a total contradiction to the rules.
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Old 2010-11-08, 17:22   Link #280
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Originally Posted by Kafriel View Post
There are things like chakra reserves and chakra capacity, although they have never been given a cap, they just get larger with training. This was done to complement the initial distinction between ninja ranks, only not applying to jinchuuriki and -kage level ninjas (especially old ones, who knows how many years of training they've had). Shikamaru is known to burn his chakra fast, for example, and Kakashi usually faces the same problem (rai-bunshin, MS or even plain sharingan back in part 1).
Orochimaru also counts as old, since he was almost immortal and had lived as much as Jiraiya and Tsunade (both at kage level upon their introduction), so nothing should be a big deal for these guys.
The laws are true in their original domain (it's like Newton's laws of classical physics remain true despite the relativity theory and quantum mechanics go beyond that). For example Kakashi is in a domain where ninjas have finite chakra and if they deplete it they die. Kakashi died because of that. But in shonen manga the main heroes constantly level up, and on each new level is a new domain with it's own laws. So as the heroes (Naruto and Sasuke) progress we meet new and more powerful people, as we have seen the ultimate opponent seems to be Madara and Kabuto. At such a high level Madara can make his illusion the truth, Nagato can revive masses, Naruto has almost infinite chakra from using sage+kyuubi mode, and who knows what powers Sasuke will have. But despite all this all of the other ninjas are stuck in a lower domain where chakra is strictly finite, where strong jutsu require huge amounts of chakra. Kishimoto allows performing higher level jutsu if either someone has level up to the required level or if someone sacrifices himself or others to do it. For example Naruto in his original state can perform rasenshuriken by sacrificing his chakra system, after the sage mode level up he just needs large amount of chakra, after the additional kyuubi level up i guess the rasenshuriken will be an average move for him. Same goes for Sasuke, MS jutsu in exchange for his eyes, after the level up EMS jutsu for an unknown amount of chakra. My guess is that Madara used Nagato to level up his own EMS to rinnegan, and that level up gives us the Izanagi, before the level up Izanagi requires a huge sacrifice, after it i think it needs only large amounts of chakra. I guess that the creation of the Moon required both a rinnegan eye and the 10-tails' huge chakra, that's why Nagato could create only a much smaller version, and the sacrifice was mentioned by Konan: Nagato gave up on his health (shorter lifespan). On Chiyo's level resurrecting 1 man requires the huge sacrifice of giving her own life, on Nagato's level it still required big sacrifice, who knows if there will be a level of power in the end of the manga where mass resurrection does not need a sacrifice. That surely will be the ultime level of power, the one who reaches it will enter the domain of gods.
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