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Old 2013-09-08, 01:37   Link #1981
frivolity
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadly_Miho View Post
Since I'm new to the site, first of all greetings to all the people on here that share the passion I have for the piece of art that is Haganai and a big thank you in particular to those that keep me updated on things I would have to wait ages for to be translated into English.

Spoiler for opinion on events of Volume 9:


Well, that was quite a mouthful for an introduction. Feel free to write down any potential disagreement with this post on your side in response.
I don't think too many overarching inferences can be drawn regarding the direction that the author took with volume 9. I think the events in Haganai are merely partially inspired by his own experiences and used for comedic purposes instead of being a platform for social commentary.

The way I see it, he dug himself into a hole with volume 8 by introducing an unplanned plotpoint regarding Sena and Kodaka's engagement without properly thinking through the implications that such a revelation would have on the dynamics between the members of the club (see the Author's Notes at the back of Connect, where he admitted that Pegasus was not intended to play such an important role).

As such, he had to dig himself out by writing a side story (Connect) to fill in the gaps left behind by previous volumes - a practice that is generally considered bad writing. Side stories that show the reader finer aspects of minor characters or historical trivia are well and good because there is no room for these in the chronology of the main plot. These side stories are usually independent of the main plot, such that the reader will not get lost without reading these side stories. However, Connect is a side story containing events that actually form the basis of later volumes, which to me is indicative that the author had lost control of his story at the end of volume 8 and was forced to take corrective actions.

This leads me back to the question of why the author directed volume 9 in this way. As mentioned above, I interpret it as him having lost control in volume 8, so Connect and volume 9 are part of the corrective steps that he used to bring the story back in line with the original plans by giving Yozora the much-needed development that she needed after Rika's in Connect. Depending on how things play out, we'll probably see a Yukimura-centric volume somewhere down the road, since she is currently lagging behind the others in terms of development.

To add on to shaqpabst's post, one theme that the characters in the Neighbours Club collectively portray is that people of all social strata have problems of their own and all sorts of people can be outcasts, even the popular and successful ones. Whether you're good-looking, highly intelligent, confused about your orientation, highly naïve, or one who never outgrew your childhood, you still can have problems fitting in. After all, there are always exceptions to the rule. All of the members of the club are, in their own way, equally tragic outcasts who have problems fitting in. The Club is the only place where they can truly let out their actual selves without fear of being accepted.
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Old 2013-09-08, 13:02   Link #1982
mironicus
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Originally Posted by frivolity View Post
This leads me back to the question of why the author directed volume 9 in this way. As mentioned above, I interpret it as him having lost control in volume 8, so Connect and volume 9 are part of the corrective steps that he used to bring the story back in line with the original plans by giving Yozora the much-needed development that she needed after Rika's in Connect.
The direction of the story has not changed at all.

Spoiler:
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Old 2013-09-08, 15:39   Link #1983
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Originally Posted by frivolity View Post
The Club is the only place where they can truly let out their actual selves without fear of being accepted.
Emphasis added for the slip, but somehow in this story it still applies perfectly. I suppose "begrudged tolerance" may pass for acceptance to some degree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mironicus View Post
Spoiler:
...There are plenty of "conflicts" within the other characters that have yet to be resolved. This is a story about a band of misfits/problem children, not just one.
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Old 2013-09-09, 03:21   Link #1984
jandkas
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Originally Posted by mironicus View Post
The direction of the story has not changed at all.

Spoiler:
Obvious bias much?
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Old 2013-09-09, 07:52   Link #1985
frivolity
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
Emphasis added for the slip, but somehow in this story it still applies perfectly. I suppose "begrudged tolerance" may pass for acceptance to some degree.
Oh wow, that was a classic Freudian slip!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mironicus View Post
The direction of the story has not changed at all.

Spoiler:
When I talked about direction, I was referring to the story having deviated from the author's original plans, resulting in him intervening to somehow bring it back in line. After all, a story can be written by an author, or it can be written by its characters. The amateur writers among us will be familiar with how the characters we write sometimes come alive and run away with the plot, leaving us to chase after them in an often futile attempt to get them back in line.

The impression that I got was that the author allowed the characters to write the plot on their own, but began to intervene starting with Connect, which as I pointed out earlier, generally isn't good writing because it involved halting the entire plot just to add information about Kodaka's father and Pegasus instead of interspersing these naturally into the events of the main plot. In this sense, the direction of the story did change because it would probably have gone differently had the author allowed the characters to dictate the plot on their own.

As an aside, I think many of us will agree that Haganai has great characterisation. The plot itself is fairly common and the events clichéd, but the characters are the ones carrying the story, and are also the main reason why we even read it. Perhaps this is why shipping becomes a is such a big issue for many of us - we are here to support a particular character(s), and not the story itself.

Moving on to the other issue, I think every member of the club does have serious problems of their own. As the author mentioned, the primary focus of the story is friendship, not romance. Though I'm not up-to-date with the latest volume, it is clear that Sena still has a long way to go before she fully understands how to interact well with others, and the same goes for every other club member.
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Old 2013-09-09, 09:59   Link #1986
Miraluka
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...There are plenty of "conflicts" within the other characters that have yet to be resolved. This is a story about a band of misfits/problem children, not just one.
Like who?
Kodaka and Kobato are fine.
Maria? Not at all.
Rika? Her only problem so far is she still somehow regrets autofriendzoning herself.
Sena, like she would care, she is all looking towards the future, no regrets.


Maybe Yukimura? There must be a reason to explain why she thought of herself being a guy .
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Old 2013-09-09, 10:07   Link #1987
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Originally Posted by Wilfriback View Post
Rika? Her only problem so far is she still somehow regrets autofriendzoning herself.
Rika actually does have a few problems, as revealed in the mixed onsen scene.
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Old 2013-09-09, 10:09   Link #1988
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Originally Posted by Wilfriback View Post
Kodaka and Kobato are fine.
Wait what? Kobato solved her "Afraid to make friends with her classmate" problem?
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Old 2013-09-09, 21:08   Link #1989
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In the interest of having at least one reply to each...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilfriback View Post
Maria? Not at all.
Is this only because you're seeing her as a child, and therefore that justifies all her childish/selfish/gullible traits?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilfriback View Post
Sena, like she would care, she is all looking towards the future, no regrets.
Only because the plot hasn't yet hit her with a major reason to regret, but I doubt that will last 'till the end of the story. Pride cometh before a fall.

We now see Yozora's issues laid bare so everyone else seems fine in comparison, but they're all still very flawed individuals whose problems will remain the focus of the story likely 'till the end.
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Old 2013-09-10, 01:38   Link #1990
Flere821
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Maybe Yukimura? There must be a reason to explain why she thought of herself being a guy .
That was already covered in Connect.
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Old 2013-09-10, 19:48   Link #1991
Hassou Tobi
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That was already covered in Connect.
I must have missed that. Care to elaborate why or provide a link explaining it? I'm curious.
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Old 2013-09-10, 22:08   Link #1992
l.kostas
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I must have missed that. Care to elaborate why or provide a link explaining it? I'm curious.
It hasn't been translated in English yet. Flere has seen the Chinese translation. Here is a discussion about Connect:
http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=4529723
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Old 2013-09-10, 23:27   Link #1993
Joseito1875
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Does anybody know what role does the new girl from the cover (Karin) play in this volume?
Somebody might have mentioned it already and I might have missed it...
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Old 2013-09-12, 14:50   Link #1994
Deadly_Miho
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@frivolity @shaqpabst
I'm well aware that every person in life has his own problems. True happiness may actually be but a mere utopic concept since omnipresence is a feature inseperably bound to problems as they either naturally come along with certain circumstances or can be considered manmade like people pondering about existential questions which may leave them with feelings of dejection. It's just simply too easy to lose yourself in something trivial ultimately resulting in worries for it to not have happened to everyone at least a couple of times. Therefore even individuals who from the perspective of an objective third person appear to lead a fulfilling life will certainly have some kind of problem even if other people are unable to detect it or consider it to be unworthy of worrying about. Kodaka who after the events of Volume 8 has resolved his issue of denying obviously existing feelings for him from multiple sources and therefore has been proclaimed a protagonist might actually find himself in such a situation where he creates himself new problems sooner or later, because he tends to act upon his compulsion to play the role of the good guy through which he makes the problems of others his own. Let's say he actually puts his plans of helping Yozora that have been mentioned within the Volume 9 spoilers into action, wouldn't that inevitably lead to the two of them getting along better and in return displease the other Neighbour's club members causing him to have to deal with additional difficile situations? Anyways, it's probably pointless to speculate what happens next in the story as so far my guesses never really were spot on, but I did so nevertheless in order to illustrate the nature of a problem's emergence.
With that being said it should not have to be further elaborated on as to why Yozora isn't the only one of the group having to fight with problems. Refer to post #1981 if you want to see an appropriate explanation nevertheless.
As a follow-up to all of the aforementioned it should be noted that my previous post in regards of popular people was merely meant to point out that they'll most likely not be capable of evaluating the situation a loner is in yet however treat them based on misjudgements that seem most plausible to them. The last thing a loner wants is to be pitied, because we are well functioning individuals like everyone else and want to be treated as such. In many cases solitude is our own choice as we experienced how perfidious and despicable humans can be when they come together in groups.
Furthermore there is this species of inveterate seekers of harmony that want to force change upon us, because they feel the existence of someone with a lack of presence is just as bothersome as the one of a loud-mouthed extrovert trying to attract people's attention all the time. When it comes to changing your personality I won't be able to find better words to express my opinion than those of our time's greatest philosopher:

""You can't run away" is an ideal for the strong. You're not always wrong. Society,
the world, the people around you - often someone else is in the wrong. To think that you can change is adapting to this cruel, indifferent, trashy world. It's admitting defeat and servility. You're simply dressing it up with pretty words."

"They say that if you change yourself you change the world. but that's a complete lie. They're just forcing you to compromise by feeding you a convenient little fib."
- Hikigaya Hachiman

I'm not suggesting that every human should remain friendless, however one shouldn't have to change to something he/she doesn't want to be for the sole purpose of getting accepted by society. Also, one should keep in mind that just because an individual won't share his/her life story with a stranger at their first meeting it doesn't mean that said person must be considered arrogant. Being reserved in the presence of others is simply the safe approach to relationships, because it grants the time which is need for trust to develop between people.
As for Kodaka's plans to help, ergo to change Yozora in particular I must say that I'm quite sceptical towards the possible outcomes of this endeavour. I really like her the way she currently is: her wittiness, sense of responsibility, assertiveness, her quirks like the tendency to take jabs at people, her wisdom concerning relationships, in general her intelligence and sharp-mindedness, loyalty to her childhood friend, etc. . It would really have to be subtle changes in order to not ruin this awesome character. Then again Kodaka providing his assistance as I said before could potentially help Yozora to forge the ties with him that she was hoping for.
On a sidenote, I'm pretty sure that her response to Kodaka's plan most likely will be a positive one considering how she's already been manipulated into believing that changing herself is her only option, plus it's Kodaka we're talking about for whom she has always felt affection and respect so naturally she'd be more likely to agree. Would such a suggestion be coming from anyone else I'm sure she'd tell that person off and continue to walk the path of Hikki. In this context let me leave you with a final thought before bringing this novel-like post to an end: Yozora x Hachiman. Wouldn't that be a perfect match?
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Old 2013-09-12, 16:17   Link #1995
mironicus
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
Is this only because you're seeing her as a child, and therefore that justifies all her childish/selfish/gullible traits?

We now see Yozora's issues laid bare so everyone else seems fine in comparison, but they're all still very flawed individuals whose problems will remain the focus of the story likely 'till the end.
Who cares about some flaws? As long as they are happy and those flaws don't prevent them to have a relationship, everything is fine. Yozora's major flaw is that she has not learned yet that she should rely on real people, instead she continues to rely on her old memories, dreams and fantasies.

If Yozora starts to rely on people, her problems are solved and she will be able to accept her friends in the present. In her case: Kodaka helps her to recover her relationship with her family and Yozora becomes so happy that she finally understands that real people are better then imaginary friends.
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Old 2013-09-12, 22:20   Link #1996
Miraluka
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Originally Posted by l.kostas View Post
It hasn't been translated in English yet. Flere has seen the Chinese translation. Here is a discussion about Connect:
http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=4529723
The talk there is centered on Stella and then by Yozora's pov .

Yukimura needs love.
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Old 2013-09-13, 18:55   Link #1997
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadly_Miho View Post
I'm not suggesting that every human should remain friendless, however one shouldn't have to change to something he/she doesn't want to be for the sole purpose of getting accepted by society. Also, one should keep in mind that just because an individual won't share his/her life story with a stranger at their first meeting it doesn't mean that said person must be considered arrogant. Being reserved in the presence of others is simply the safe approach to relationships, because it grants the time which is need for trust to develop between people.
As for Kodaka's plans to help, ergo to change Yozora in particular I must say that I'm quite sceptical towards the possible outcomes of this endeavour. I really like her the way she currently is: her wittiness, sense of responsibility, assertiveness, her quirks like the tendency to take jabs at people, her wisdom concerning relationships, in general her intelligence and sharp-mindedness, loyalty to her childhood friend, etc. . It would really have to be subtle changes in order to not ruin this awesome character. Then again Kodaka providing his assistance as I said before could potentially help Yozora to forge the ties with him that she was hoping for.
On a sidenote, I'm pretty sure that her response to Kodaka's plan most likely will be a positive one considering how she's already been manipulated into believing that changing herself is her only option, plus it's Kodaka we're talking about for whom she has always felt affection and respect so naturally she'd be more likely to agree. Would such a suggestion be coming from anyone else I'm sure she'd tell that person off and continue to walk the path of Hikki. In this context let me leave you with a final thought before bringing this novel-like post to an end: Yozora x Hachiman. Wouldn't that be a perfect match?
I don't think Yozora is walking the same path as Hachiman when she has no confidence in herself. As anti-social as they both are (or not), Hachiman has a strong enough will to say what he thinks, even to "the other side" with riajuus and socialites. I can't say the same for Yozora with how she is portrayed in this chapter.

I agree that believing Yozora can be reformed to a "normal" girl is a bit naïve, but she does need to change her mentality to some extent. Her abrasive personality aside, she can't keep trying to relive a relationship long gone in the past. If Hachiman were here, he would tear her apart for having unrealistic expectations towards Kodaka to begin with. I think Yozora is wrong in this case - she can't expect him to treat her the same way as when they were kids.
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Old 2013-09-14, 02:42   Link #1998
Bunnychi
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So I have been skimming comments from pages back and correct me if I'm wrong.. 4 chapters are out thus far in volume 9. None of which have been translated to english, so all we have to go on are summaries from others and pictures from the novel's themselves right?
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Old 2013-09-15, 03:22   Link #1999
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So I have been skimming comments from pages back and correct me if I'm wrong.. 4 chapters are out thus far in volume 9. None of which have been translated to english, so all we have to go on are summaries from others and pictures from the novel's themselves right?
Vol 9 is 15 chapters long but chapter 0 and 1 are not important. Real story started from chapter 2. The confession of Kodaka is just....lol awesome. But I think that kind of confession is pretty much suitable for Sena (he listed all the strong points of her). As a Sena fan, I give him 10 out of 10
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Old 2013-09-16, 03:25   Link #2000
GVN.Chaos
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Originally Posted by Bunnychi View Post
So I have been skimming comments from pages back and correct me if I'm wrong.. 4 chapters are out thus far in volume 9. None of which have been translated to english, so all we have to go on are summaries from others and pictures from the novel's themselves right?
Say, is the Hagani PJ in baka-tsuki still going? I saw the supervisor's name in the INACTIVE list >.>
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Vol 9 is 15 chapters long but chapter 0 and 1 are not important. Real story started from chapter 2. The confession of Kodaka is just....lol awesome. But I think that kind of confession is pretty much suitable for Sena (he listed all the strong points of her). As a Sena fan, I give him 10 out of 10
Totally agree mate
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