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Old 2013-02-13, 18:51   Link #1401
frivolity
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Quote:
Originally Posted by finalfury View Post
...

Since the story's beginning/first/original theme was making friends or something like that; I feel that the romance in the story was originally made to appeal to shippers, so I'll go with no one as the end girl but then the fanbase will go a riot for sure if there's no end girl.
I got that feeling too, both in Haganai and OreImo. It was as if Sena and Kuroneko's massive popularity took the authors by surprise, and both authors decided to take a detour from their original plans in order to increase sales. This practice is understandable and fairly common in manga and light novels, and I don't have a problem with that.

What I find bad practice, however, is if the author still attempts to stick to the original storyline even though it is clear that the slight detour had unintentionally changed the entire flow of the story. Authors are often a stubborn lot, and I dislike the practice of forcing the story back to its original route instead of letting it flow accordingly. Ichigo 100% is one of the few stories I know of where the mangaka allowed the story to take its course after it started to deviate from her original intentions.
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Old 2013-02-13, 19:30   Link #1402
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I'm personally hoping for some good Yozora character development. She's starting to show some good positive changes but the ending of the 8th novel may help that development or screw it up.
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Old 2013-02-13, 19:39   Link #1403
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My personal wish: Kodaka's rejection shakes up Sena, leading to further development of the ambiguously lesbian duo.
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Old 2013-02-14, 08:09   Link #1404
Xzotic
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Originally Posted by Somethindarker View Post
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as soon as he said "ideal otaku girlfriend" this post became invalid. yozora fits the more popular role of winning in the end look up most of the finished harem comedies and the winner will be the yozora archetype. sena being static? that is a laughable claim, she has much more depth to her character than this guy gives her credit for. yozora is the static character, she hasn't changed since the beginning she is still the bitter, mean and the stand offish character she started out with. sena has become friendlier and less egotistical to everyone around her she actually cares about people other than herself. sure i still think yozora will win in the end, from a harem rule perspective, but THATS what i find as bullshit pandering to the largest common denominator. all in all it's up the the author and all these opinions and character dissections are useless.
Sure, Sena DOES deserve some credit. However, compared to Yozora, Sena hasn't changed much. Frankly, Yozora is very dynamic. Yozora appears to be static because the author doesn't physically characterizes her as static. Meaning, Sena is described as becoming more friendly and such. However, through Yozora's thoughts and actions (based on appearance/reactions) she is actually very dynamic. Basically, the author makes Yozora a subtle dynamic character.
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Old 2013-02-14, 08:33   Link #1405
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Originally Posted by Xzotic View Post
Sure, Sena DOES deserve some credit. However, compared to Yozora, Sena hasn't changed much. Frankly, Yozora is very dynamic. Yozora appears to be static because the author doesn't physically characterizes her as static. Meaning, Sena is described as becoming more friendly and such. However, through Yozora's thoughts and actions (based on appearance/reactions) she is actually very dynamic. Basically, the author makes Yozora a subtle dynamic character.
please explain, because for me she's hardly changed at all. don't get me wrong i'm not denying her character hasn't changed but to me she still has trouble expressing herself whereas sena doesn't hold herself to a higher standard as much as she used to, yozora still in introverted and manipulative.
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Old 2013-02-14, 08:57   Link #1406
potchip
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Originally Posted by Somethindarker View Post
please explain, because for me she's hardly changed at all. don't get me wrong i'm not denying her character hasn't changed but to me she still has trouble expressing herself whereas sena doesn't hold herself to a higher standard as much as she used to, yozora still in introverted and manipulative.
It's very hard to explain due to the language, and if you are not familiar with LNs in general.

Yozora's 'reveals' does not come from her actions, but from other character's observations - mostly Kodaka and sometimes Rika.

In a way Yozora's almost like a pet project of the author - eg character's will comment about Yozora when she's not even around (where the comment comes out of the blue)

You are confusing 'development' in terms of actions with development as a form of character building - whether it comes directly from a character's action, or from an observer's point of view (mind you, observers can be mistaken, too)

Let's put it this way, if you think Sena has 'developed' in the sense got less narcissistic, it's only because she's treating Kodaka better and you are viewing her character from Kodaka's perspective. But at the same time, are you judging Yozora based on her actions against Kodaka? She likes to tease Kodaka but can hardly be considered manipulative.

No one has developed in the sense their 'flaw's become less prominent. Instead, characters get developed as their 'good qualities' get further reinforced. In that regard, Yozora is somewhat more dynamic (or ambiguous), whereas Sena has mostly been fleshed out.

There's strong hints that story will either go Yozora way or harem way - in itself not necessarily a good thing as it get predictable. It's like in a typical mystery novel, the character that just so conveniently appears like the culprit, is almost always not. Or the story would ended right there. Same with a romantic comedy with the expected twists and turns, structurally speaking, Sena's the stimulant, but probably not the goal.
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Old 2013-02-14, 18:26   Link #1407
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Originally Posted by potchip View Post
It's very hard to explain due to the language, and if you are not familiar with LNs in general.

Yozora's 'reveals' does not come from her actions, but from other character's observations - mostly Kodaka and sometimes Rika.

In a way Yozora's almost like a pet project of the author - eg character's will comment about Yozora when she's not even around (where the comment comes out of the blue)

You are confusing 'development' in terms of actions with development as a form of character building - whether it comes directly from a character's action, or from an observer's point of view (mind you, observers can be mistaken, too)

Let's put it this way, if you think Sena has 'developed' in the sense got less narcissistic, it's only because she's treating Kodaka better and you are viewing her character from Kodaka's perspective. But at the same time, are you judging Yozora based on her actions against Kodaka? She likes to tease Kodaka but can hardly be considered manipulative.

No one has developed in the sense their 'flaw's become less prominent. Instead, characters get developed as their 'good qualities' get further reinforced. In that regard, Yozora is somewhat more dynamic (or ambiguous), whereas Sena has mostly been fleshed out.

There's strong hints that story will either go Yozora way or harem way - in itself not necessarily a good thing as it get predictable. It's like in a typical mystery novel, the character that just so conveniently appears like the culprit, is almost always not. Or the story would ended right there. Same with a romantic comedy with the expected twists and turns, structurally speaking, Sena's the stimulant, but probably not the goal.
I don't possibly see how Yozora could end up the final girl. I actually see it as being bad for her if she won Kodaka and that currently it would just seem more out of nowhere.
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Old 2013-02-14, 18:41   Link #1408
frivolity
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If we're going to construe characters as being "dynamic" in the sense that they're "ambiguous", then that in my opinion is the complete opposite of the way that the word was being used previously. The discussion was about the Sena-bashing as a static character precisely in the sense that she had not been developed, or at least not developed well, as opposed to whether or not her character has been fleshed out. And even if Yozora's supposed development is more subtle than Sena's, why should it imply that Sena is a more static character?

I agree that Yozora is the most likely candidate for the end girl at this point. All the clues and tropes are going in her favour, even things as simple as her being the only girl on the cover of the first volume. The Chinese LN forums are pointing out similar tropes, such as whether the first girl to confess is most likely going to lose. Ironically, this is exactly what Xzotic is complaining about - "Pairing up 2 characters in a series as popular as Haganai/Boku Wa Tomodachi just because it was pre-determined is completely and utterly retarded."
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Old 2013-02-14, 20:14   Link #1409
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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
My personal wish: Kodaka's rejection shakes up Sena, leading to further development of the ambiguously lesbian duo.
I see. So, that's the reason why you said that about Kodaka would have to end up with someone
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Old 2013-02-16, 10:05   Link #1410
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Yozora is a little complicated for me, but my opinion about her character is that she's dangling the line between a friend who loves to tease and a bully, considering how she detests being compared to the latter implies that she had bad past experiences with that group, which subsequently makes her unable to open up to anyone.

What makes her complicated for me is the way her character was brought up and the implications already made in the light novels. I think of her as a person who tried to make friends, but either from bad decisions or just plain bad luck kept her from attaining any throughout the period between losing and reuniting with her best and only childhood friend, Kodaka. It's plain to see that things almost never go her way, what with (love) rivals competing for Kodaka's attention and all.

I'm already suspecting that whatever comeback plan Yozora has in store in Volume 9 will end in disaster as well. But then again, this might also be the volume wherein her luck takes a turn for the better and she makes progress somehow.

With that said, Yozora still isn't outdone by the others just yet. But I'm still rooting for Sena.
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Old 2013-02-17, 02:52   Link #1411
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Originally Posted by JamJackEvo View Post
Yozora is a little complicated for me, but my opinion about her character is that she's dangling the line between a friend who loves to tease and a bully, considering how she detests being compared to the latter implies that she had bad past experiences with that group, which subsequently makes her unable to open up to anyone.

What makes her complicated for me is the way her character was brought up and the implications already made in the light novels. I think of her as a person who tried to make friends, but either from bad decisions or just plain bad luck kept her from attaining any throughout the period between losing and reuniting with her best and only childhood friend, Kodaka. It's plain to see that things almost never go her way, what with (love) rivals competing for Kodaka's attention and all.

I'm already suspecting that whatever comeback plan Yozora has in store in Volume 9 will end in disaster as well. But then again, this might also be the volume wherein her luck takes a turn for the better and she makes progress somehow.

With that said, Yozora still isn't outdone by the others just yet. But I'm still rooting for Sena.
imo the 3 girls with the highest probability of ending with kodaka are.

sena- arranged marriage, has had probably the most pairing related development by far(double edged sword), coolest character for a dad, probably the most popular girl in the series with the fans and is actively pursuing a relationship with kodaka.

yozora- all the cookie cutter stereotypes for winning, forced pity development, has been actively pursuing kodaka since the absolute beginning and has the least amount of background info on her. which leads me to believe the author is saving that til the end so yozoraxkodaka doesn't feel as forced.

rika- kodaka finds her in his "strike zone", rika understands kodaka the most and out of all the girls was willing to friend zone herself just for him which for some reason, in the back of my mind, i want this to have a toradora! like ending with rikaxkodaka
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Old 2013-02-17, 04:06   Link #1412
frivolity
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Without a doubt, Volume 9 is the crucial point in the story that will most likely determine who wins in the end, if anyone. It could serve as a turning point or the nail in the coffin, but the title strongly hints that it will be the former.

Another important factor would be how much of the story is left, because the longer it goes, the more it favours the characters that have more room to develop. Overall, as much as I hate to say it, all of these are pointing to a Yozora end.
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Old 2013-02-17, 08:45   Link #1413
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Originally Posted by frivolity View Post
Without a doubt, Volume 9 is the crucial point in the story that will most likely determine who wins in the end, if anyone. It could serve as a turning point or the nail in the coffin, but the title strongly hints that it will be the former.

Another important factor would be how much of the story is left, because the longer it goes, the more it favours the characters that have more room to develop. Overall, as much as I hate to say it, all of these are pointing to a Yozora end.
IIRC the author said the ´prologue´ ended in volume 8, so I think he plans to milk this series for awhile.
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Old 2013-02-17, 08:50   Link #1414
frivolity
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IIRC the author said the ´prologue´ ended in volume 8, so I think he plans to milk this series for awhile.


If that's the case, then hopefully the series takes so long to pan out that I'd have moved on to other stuff by then and stopped caring whether Sena wins or loses
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Old 2013-02-17, 08:52   Link #1415
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Originally Posted by frivolity View Post


If that's the case, then hopefully the series takes so long to pan out that I'd have moved on to other stuff by then and stopped caring whether Sena wins or loses
Erm yeah... I tried that with a couple of series- That'll never work
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Old 2013-02-17, 09:12   Link #1416
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errr...that's typical with LNs. They can face the chop any time so..

End each volume with a cliffhanger
Proceed with some twist to nullify the aforementioned cliffhanger
Milk as much as possible (especially for an author's first real commercial success)

Not to say the above cannot be done with a bit of class of course.
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Old 2013-02-17, 12:57   Link #1417
mironicus
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Originally Posted by Somethindarker View Post
imo the 3 girls with the highest probability of ending with kodaka are.

sena- arranged marriage, has had probably the most pairing related development by far(double edged sword), coolest character for a dad, probably the most popular girl in the series with the fans and is actively pursuing a relationship with kodaka.

yozora- all the cookie cutter stereotypes for winning, forced pity development, has been actively pursuing kodaka since the absolute beginning and has the least amount of background info on her. which leads me to believe the author is saving that til the end so yozoraxkodaka doesn't feel as forced.

rika- kodaka finds her in his "strike zone", rika understands kodaka the most and out of all the girls was willing to friend zone herself just for him which for some reason, in the back of my mind, i want this to have a toradora! like ending with rikaxkodaka
It depends on Kodaka's decision. But see for yourself if you read the following line.

"It's not good to judge something based on how it looks. If you are going to reject it, do so after you've seen what's inside. Judging things based on looks alone... that's just cruel!" - Kodaka (2nd episode of Haganai Next).

After 6 months he actually really can tell what's "inside" the girls, don't you think...?
He knows what he can expect if he starts a relationship with one of the girls.
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Old 2013-02-17, 13:29   Link #1418
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Exactly why we all know how Kodaka will respond. The fallout will be glorious.
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Old 2013-02-17, 15:15   Link #1419
cyberdemon
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Originally Posted by JamJackEvo View Post
Yozora is a little complicated for me, but my opinion about her character is that she's dangling the line between a friend who loves to tease and a bully, considering how she detests being compared to the latter implies that she had bad past experiences with that group, which subsequently makes her unable to open up to anyone.

What makes her complicated for me is the way her character was brought up and the implications already made in the light novels. I think of her as a person who tried to make friends, but either from bad decisions or just plain bad luck kept her from attaining any throughout the period between losing and reuniting with her best and only childhood friend, Kodaka. It's plain to see that things almost never go her way, what with (love) rivals competing for Kodaka's attention and all.

I'm already suspecting that whatever comeback plan Yozora has in store in Volume 9 will end in disaster as well. But then again, this might also be the volume wherein her luck takes a turn for the better and she makes progress somehow.

With that said, Yozora still isn't outdone by the others just yet. But I'm still rooting for Sena.
Personally I'd like to see Kodaka go out with Sena. It may also be for best for Yozora as well. She clings too much to the past. She places all her eggs in the basket known as Kodaka. She simply doesn't care about getting close to the others.

If Kodaka was to go out with Sena then while Yozora will probably hit rock bottom at first. Depending on the actions of Kodaka and the other she could recement the friendship she used to have with Kodaka, the friendship she so desired to have back, and possibly open herself more to the friendship of the others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Somethindarker View Post
yozora- all the cookie cutter stereotypes for winning, forced pity development, has been actively pursuing kodaka since the absolute beginning and has the least amount of background info on her. which leads me to believe the author is saving that til the end so yozoraxkodaka doesn't feel as forced.
simply saving it for the end is what makes it forced. As it is the story seems to be heading towards the end. development isn't something you can shove in the last volume or 2. It needs to truly be built up from the beginning. Yozora is too impassive and shuns others. I think a better development for her based on this is for her to think she lost everything only for Kodaka and the others to make her realize that she does have friends and is not alone even if Kodaka ends with another girl. That seems something more in line with her portrayal.

Here's how I see things going:
-Kodaka decides to go out with Sena.
-Yozora finds out and is crushed. she felt like she lost her only friend.
-Yozora starts distancing herself from the others and the club. Maybe even possibly stops coming to school.
-Kodaka tries talking to her but it doesn't help.
-Eventually Kodaka and the other girls pull Yozora out of her shell.
-Yozora ends up realizing that more than just Kodaka, she had many more friends who cared about her.

This way while Sena may get the guy, Yozora truly changes for the better.
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Old 2013-02-17, 15:24   Link #1420
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If Kodaka was to go out with Sena then while Yozora will probably hit rock bottom at first. Depending on the actions of Kodaka and the other she could recement the friendship she used to have with Kodaka, the friendship she so desired to have back, and possibly open herself more to the friendship of the others.
Brings to mind that one saying, "Get along with your friend's girlfriend/boyfriend, unless you want to lose that friend."
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