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Old 2010-11-11, 03:17   Link #61
Nobodyman9
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Originally Posted by Frenchie View Post
Recycled character designs.
They're the same damn characters. Ultimately inconsequential characters that Kishi thought he was being clever with by taking them from the movie and then using them in the manga, but still the same characters.

Oh, and I know you meant well, but recycling character designs is even worse than recycling characters. It's like saying, "Here's some new characters, but I'm too damn lazy to come up with some new designs, so I'll just base them off some other characters."

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As I pointed out, they did nothing -and- had no names in the movie.
And they will continue to do so in the manga.

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Going so far as to say they're fodder is mere speculation at this point.
There has been no indication that these "new" characters will serve any further purpose than being fodder. This assertion is correct until proven otherwise.
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Old 2010-11-11, 03:35   Link #62
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Originally Posted by Nobodyman9 View Post
They're the same damn characters. Ultimately inconsequential characters that Kishi thought he was being clever with by taking them from the movie and then using them in the manga, but still the same characters.

Oh, and I know you meant well, but recycling character designs is even worse than recycling characters. It's like saying, "Here's some new characters, but I'm too damn lazy to come up with some new designs, so I'll just base them off some other characters."
But... He's the one that came up with those designs anyway? If he wants to actually use them when they weren't actually exposed in the movie, why shouldn't he be able to? They are still his original designs.

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And they will continue to do so in the manga.
How can you say that when we already know the name of the Kirigakure nin? (Chuukichi)

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There has been no indication that these "new" characters will serve any further purpose than being fodder. This assertion is correct until proven otherwise.
Either side is mere speculation. Whether they will or will not be fodder remains to be seen and is speculation. I will say, however, that Kishi hasn't given me any reason to think that they would be fodder. What did he do in this manga, specifically, that makes you believe that?
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Old 2010-11-11, 04:06   Link #63
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Isn't the resurrected Root member Shin (the one alongside Deidara, Sasori and Chuukichi)?

Why the hell's Mei Terumi not in the last page where the Kages are talking (save for Gaara)?
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Old 2010-11-11, 04:18   Link #64
Nobodyman9
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Originally Posted by Frenchie View Post
But... He's the one that came up with those designs anyway? If he wants to actually use them when they weren't actually exposed in the movie, why shouldn't he be able to? They are still his original designs.
I'm not saying he copied the character designs. I'm saying it's rather foolish to imply that recycling character designs is somehow better, when actually it's even worse.

Unless you're referring to him actually reusing the characters from the movie, then yeah, it's still cheap. He thinks he's being clever by taking a bunch of fodder characters from the movie and implementing them into the manga, when in fact he's just being lazy.

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How can you say that when we already know the name of the Kirigakure nin? (Chuukichi)
I'll admit I forgot that, but yeah, good for Kishi. He's met approximately 5% of the requirements I'm asking for. But yeah, I'll be sure to log that away.

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Either side is mere speculation. Whether they will or will not be fodder remains to be seen and is speculation. I will say, however, that Kishi hasn't given me any reason to think that they would be fodder. What did he do in this manga, specifically, that makes you believe that?
-The fact that, aside from Chuukichi, none of them have been given names.
-The fact that only two of them have had any lines, and neither of them said anything meaningful.
-The fact that none of them have been setup to play any sort of major role.
-Oh, and, gee whiz, why would the guy who neglects to develop or, heck, even give screentime to his secondary characters be so negligent in giving some development to a bunch of tertiary characters (hell, they barely even qualify as that).
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Old 2010-11-11, 08:02   Link #65
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Originally Posted by Nobodyman9 View Post
I'm not saying he copied the character designs. I'm saying it's rather foolish to imply that recycling character designs is somehow better, when actually it's even worse.

Unless you're referring to him actually reusing the characters from the movie, then yeah, it's still cheap. He thinks he's being clever by taking a bunch of fodder characters from the movie and implementing them into the manga, when in fact he's just being lazy.
Or maybe he just thought the designs were too good just to leave them alone. Kishi has shown a much broader spectrum in styles than Kubo has. If you name all the primary, secondary and tertiary characters in the series and you just think about it for two seconds, you'll realise all of them have a pretty unique look.

I happen to like what these new characters look like. But whatever.

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I'll admit I forgot that, but yeah, good for Kishi. He's met approximately 5% of the requirements I'm asking for. But yeah, I'll be sure to log that away.
Why are you being sarcastic? They've only been introduced a chapter ago.

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-The fact that, aside from Chuukichi, none of them have been given names.
-The fact that only two of them have had any lines, and neither of them said anything meaningful.
-The fact that none of them have been setup to play any sort of major role.
-Oh, and, gee whiz, why would the guy who neglects to develop or, heck, even give screentime to his secondary characters be so negligent in giving some development to a bunch of tertiary characters (hell, they barely even qualify as that).
Your first point doesn't find any basis in Kishi's past writing. When Haku was first introduced under the guise of an ANBU nin, did he reveal his name? Did Jiraiya reveal his name to Naruto from the get go after he owned Ebisu? Weren't they relevant characters in part I of Naruto that you said you liked?

Your second point: True. But Kishi is trying to setup a war. In that context, giving these characters more than a few panels is difficult. Again, they've only been around for a chapter.

Your third point is interesting. How do you determine that? Did you think that Kabuto in the Chuunin exams would have played a role beyond being the guy with the info cards? I sure as hell didn't and never thought he'd turn out to be the major player he is now. I think you may be confusing the role they play with their ability to live on. They're pretty much guaranteed to die, but that doesn't mean they don't have a role in the grand scheme of things, such as providing development to secondary characters.

Finally, your fourth point. I don't think it's as clear cut as that. You're saying that because he made a mistake by not giving development/screentime to his secondary characters, there's no reason he should do that for his tertiary characters. I disagree, by that logic, I could go on and say that he did give plenty of time to his secondary characters in part I, and that even if this is part II, we are still talking about the same author. It sounds like you're saying he can't develop them, when he has shown that he can.
Isn't he going to give his secondary characters screentime during this war? Naruto is kept safe within the alliance headquarters, Sasuke is staying at Madara's hideout while his eyes cook, these facts seem to be contradicting your point.
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Old 2010-11-11, 08:26   Link #66
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You have this DBZ mindset where people who are already at their peak in performance are able to quadruple their power and become fifty times as fast as they already were. That's not the case. The only ones who are doing that are the ones who haven't hit their peak (such as Sasuke and Naruto).
I think you're right to a certain extent. I like the idea of shaking up the common convention that once a villain is defeated, they're no longer a threat to anyone and that only the Kage-level nin are dangerous anymore. That's why I'm glad the likes of Kimimaro and Zabuza were brought back along with Akatsuki and the former Kages. If the fights are handled correctly, it could really be interesting. Of course, most of their skills and abilities have already been shown, so I do expect their battles to be much more brief (no way there's going to be an entire arc devoted to defeating Zabuza again)


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With that said, I think Zabuza could do some damage... especially because it's already been proven that his mist technique blocks out the Sharingan. And the only reason that Kakashi was allowed to summon his dogs during the mist was because Zabuza was already over-confident in his technique (Kakashi even announced to Zabuza that he had a change of plan... Zabuza still let him summon). That same mistake wouldn't happen again.
Doubt the mist trick would work a second time now that Kakashi's experienced it. Kakashi won't fall for the same trick twice (he's said that, and he proved it against Itachi). But on the other hand, he'd be fighting a Zabuza who probably can't be killed by normally fatal techniques like chidori.
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Old 2010-11-11, 09:41   Link #67
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OK the i dont know why people are complaining about the designs its not like anyone remembered who they were. In the movie they were in it for a few seconds. They didnt even have a name we only know they had kekkei genkis.

Plus i can see oda doing it later on to with the characters from the last movie. They were pretty much fodder characters. How can Luffy beat Gold Rogers Rival?

p.s Kubo did it 2? when? i only read bleach.

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Old 2010-11-11, 10:15   Link #68
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Originally Posted by Frenchie View Post
Or maybe he just thought the designs were too good just to leave them alone. Kishi has shown a much broader spectrum in styles than Kubo has. If you name all the primary, secondary and tertiary characters in the series and you just think about it for two seconds, you'll realise all of them have a pretty unique look.

I happen to like what these new characters look like. But whatever.



Why are you being sarcastic? They've only been introduced a chapter ago.



Your first point doesn't find any basis in Kishi's past writing. When Haku was first introduced under the guise of an ANBU nin, did he reveal his name? Did Jiraiya reveal his name to Naruto from the get go after he owned Ebisu? Weren't they relevant characters in part I of Naruto that you said you liked?

Your second point: True. But Kishi is trying to setup a war. In that context, giving these characters more than a few panels is difficult. Again, they've only been around for a chapter.

Your third point is interesting. How do you determine that? Did you think that Kabuto in the Chuunin exams would have played a role beyond being the guy with the info cards? I sure as hell didn't and never thought he'd turn out to be the major player he is now. I think you may be confusing the role they play with their ability to live on. They're pretty much guaranteed to die, but that doesn't mean they don't have a role in the grand scheme of things, such as providing development to secondary characters.

Finally, your fourth point. I don't think it's as clear cut as that. You're saying that because he made a mistake by not giving development/screentime to his secondary characters, there's no reason he should do that for his tertiary characters. I disagree, by that logic, I could go on and say that he did give plenty of time to his secondary characters in part I, and that even if this is part II, we are still talking about the same author. It sounds like you're saying he can't develop them, when he has shown that he can.
Isn't he going to give his secondary characters screentime during this war? Naruto is kept safe within the alliance headquarters, Sasuke is staying at Madara's hideout while his eyes cook, these facts seem to be contradicting your point.
Dammit Frenchie! Now I have that stupid song in my head again!

I agree with what you said though
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Old 2010-11-11, 10:19   Link #69
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Reading it , feels like it's so easy to ressurect people and more importantly , they are conscious.
Greater Power vs Greater Power - DBZ route - it's keeping down & down.
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Old 2010-11-11, 10:51   Link #70
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With that said, I think Zabuza could do some damage... especially because it's already been proven that his mist technique blocks out the Sharingan. And the only reason that Kakashi was allowed to summon his dogs during the mist was because Zabuza was already over-confident in his technique (Kakashi even announced to Zabuza that he had a change of plan... Zabuza still let him summon). That same mistake wouldn't happen again.
While he could prove to be problematic, for Kakashi it should be a walk in the park, 3 years have passed, Kakashi growth hasn’t stopped, including gaining the MS, not to mention Kakshi by that time was worried about Sasuke and Naruto and also needed to be guarding Sakura and Tazuna, as they were at the mercy of Zabuza.

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But on the other hand, he'd be fighting a Zabuza who probably can't be killed by normally fatal techniques like chidori.
But he does have Kamui, This is one of the few, (if not the only one), known Jutsu able to take care of any Summoned Zombie.
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Old 2010-11-11, 10:58   Link #71
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We will know everything about this war from Kabuto vs Anko. If Kishimoto can't even kill the little seen Anko, then who will he kill? Then we will know that none of the name characters, outside of maybe one or two, will die.

I also hope there are no more zombies. I could buy Asuma, Dan, and Hizashi coming back. Not really Zabuza or Haku. But whatever. But with Sai's brother, now it just seems like Kishimoto was starving for zombies to create fights. What's next? The zombie of that little girl that was mean to Sakura 8 years ago so Ino has someone to fight also?

Did anyone notice the weird art in this chapter? It felt off.

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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
^Bye Bye Shikimaru...
I thought he would die the minute Kishimoto put him in Temari's division. Total Kishi move to give fan's their romance and then kill off either one or both of the characters. Expect a sweet tender embrace and then death. Then 9 months later Temari magically pops a bun out of the oven in the epilogue.

The character that also could go is Gaara. Cause right now he is doing everything Naruto whines about. He brought the ninja world together and is leading them.

But let's be honest. Neither will die. Kishi would rather cut off his right arm than kill characters he loves. Look at the fanservice Gaara and Shika get. Sakura will take the bullet for the Alliance.
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Old 2010-11-11, 12:42   Link #72
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He shouldn't have stayed scouting, now madara will get him with his eyes...
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Old 2010-11-11, 12:45   Link #73
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Anko isnt going to die that Kishi favorite female character.

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Reading it , feels like it's so easy to ressurect people and more importantly , they are conscious.
Greater Power vs Greater Power - DBZ route - it's keeping down & down.
There is only three people who can do it and 2 are dead.

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Old 2010-11-11, 12:58   Link #74
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I LOVED these latest 2 chapters.. Getting very excited.
Anyone noticing that the samething that happend to aang in Avatar: the last Airbender is now happening to naruto.. Naruto meets a giant sealion turtle just before a great war starts out in which he will play a major part.. And the turtle shows the main character a way to win the war without destroying everything.. but because of the time spend on the giant sea turtle the main character is late for the war.. But saves the day in the end anyway.. The same thing


And to comment on the DBZ comparison: May I remind you guys naruto is only 16... Goku was 15 during his fight with KING PICOLLO and in the last tournament of dragon ball(before the start of dragon ball Z) goku was 18.. at the age of 18 goku was NEVER EVER NEAR naruto's current power.. Only thing goku had for himself was the ability to sense where enemies where... a kamehameha wave he could use 3 times and the strenght to break a little boulder... THATS ALL
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Old 2010-11-11, 13:00   Link #75
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And the turtle shows the main character a way to win the war without destroying everything.. The same thing
What did Naruto get? Weapons of mass destruction, Nagato was trying to obtain?
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Old 2010-11-11, 17:01   Link #76
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But he does have Kamui, This is one of the few, (if not the only one), known Jutsu able to take care of any Summoned Zombie.
That's true. Though Kakashi will only attempt to use it if he's desperate. Also, though it's probably the deadliest jutsu in the entire series, Kamui is never shown to defeat anyone, much like Amaterasu.

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Originally Posted by Ulquiorra View Post
We will know everything about this war from Kabuto vs Anko. If Kishimoto can't even kill the little seen Anko, then who will he kill? Then we will know that none of the name characters, outside of maybe one or two, will die.
Anko surviving isn't guaranteed. She just wasn't killed by Kabuto immediately this chapter. I think she'll live though.

In my book, the lesser-known commanders: Mifune, Kitsuchi and Darui are all prime candidates to die. Gaara, Kakashi and Shizune were rezzed so safe bet they won't die again. The sand siblings and former Konoha rookies are pretty much guaranteed to live unless Kishi decides to get real ballsy as he pushes towards the finale of the manga.
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Old 2010-11-11, 17:02   Link #77
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"I've got a bad feeling about this"? Really? Another Star Wars reference, right on the heel of a mass cloning of a white Zetsu army? I mean, there have always been bits sprinkled throughout that always screamed "similarity", but this one kind of amused me...

Well, I used to think that this war would be fought through asymetrical warfare, but with a mass army, it looks more like conventional warfare, with a lot of psychological warfare thrown into the mix...Mind fuck: What is Tsunade ever going to do when forced to fight against an undead Dan? Same scenario with Shikamaru against Azuma? It's much the same sort of conscious toying that Orochimaru did when he summoned Hashirama and Tobirama to fight against Hiruzen...The biggest difference I can see is while Hiruzen had the resolve of a person with his experience and age to give up his life to seal the Senju brothers alongside his own fate, I'm not sure if Tsunade has the heart to confront such an enemy, nor have many of the younger generation can really faced the horrors of war when it's on this large of a scale and it's wearing a friendly face...It's a little more convoluted to fight when it's not as clear-cut as good vs. bad, and it only gets a little more complicated when you consider what sort of strengths and techniques the individually-named undead are capable of...

As long as Kishimoto doesn't get tired and restless with his writing, this can get really interesting...
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Old 2010-11-11, 17:16   Link #78
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Originally Posted by Frenchie View Post
Spoiler for Bleach Spoilers...:


Anyways, I don't think it's an appropriate comparison. I happen to think Anko will survive precisely because it would make no sense for Kabuto to go through the trouble of leading her to the hideout only to kill her off. As an Orochimaru disciple, they also share a few attributes which might, like Oro in the forest of Death, lead him to spare her.
Not really comparing their relationship. I was trying to say I hope this is a straight fight between Kabuto and Anko and won't have Kabuto sparing Anko because he needs her for some purpose. Unless it's an evil purpose. But there are some who think Kabuto will give Anko some info on Madara and release her. Or even spare her life because of some prior relationship. I just want Kabuto to stay a pure villain on Madara's side for a while before his inevitable double cross.

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I thought he would die the minute Kishimoto put him in Temari's division. Total Kishi move to give fan's their romance and then kill off either one or both of the characters. Expect a sweet tender embrace and then death. Then 9 months later Temari magically pops a bun out of the oven in the epilogue.

The character that also could go is Gaara. Cause right now he is doing everything Naruto whines about. He brought the ninja world together and is leading them.
Shikamaru is immortal because of Asuma's child and kurenai. This will be made clear when they met again. If Kishi wants to be cruel and keep Shikamaru a virgin forever, he'll kill Temari.

But why make Shikamaru/Temari the exact same as Asuma/Kurenai and have it end in tragedy? Isn't the next generation suppose to be happy?

None of the kids will die. The ones with the biggest fanbases are too controversial to kill. He couldn't even kill Hinata. And the ones who aren't as popular would be pointless to kill. Would Kiba or Tenten's death really effect the manga? Kishi knows who he is going to kill. And it's going to be people like C, Ao, and Darui. Name characters, but ones that fans really haven't built an attachment to.
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Old 2010-11-11, 17:38   Link #79
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Originally Posted by Frenchie View Post
Or maybe he just thought the designs were too good just to leave them alone.
hahahahahahahahahahahaha

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Kishi has shown a much broader spectrum in styles than Kubo has.
......You do realize how pathetic that comparison is, right?

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If you name all the primary, secondary and tertiary characters in the series and you just think about it for two seconds, you'll realise all of them have a pretty unique look.
Maybe the part 1 characters, but even now Kishi has fucked up their designs royally. Most of the designs that have come out in Part 2 are just generic looking ninja #3217.

Oh yeah, and how 'bout that Hyuga clan?

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Why are you being sarcastic? They've only been introduced a chapter ago.
They're fodder characters. Deal with it.

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Your first point doesn't find any basis in Kishi's past writing. When Haku was first introduced under the guise of an ANBU nin, did he reveal his name? Did Jiraiya reveal his name to Naruto from the get go after he owned Ebisu? Weren't they relevant characters in part I of Naruto that you said you liked?
No, but based on their presentation it was pretty obvious they would play a major role.

Also, part 1 Kishi was good, part 2 Kishi sucks.

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Your second point: True. But Kishi is trying to setup a war. In that context, giving these characters more than a few panels is difficult. Again, they've only been around for a chapter.
If he wanted them to play a major role he would give them panels and lines.

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Your third point is interesting. How do you determine that? Did you think that Kabuto in the Chuunin exams would have played a role beyond being the guy with the info cards? I sure as hell didn't and never thought he'd turn out to be the major player he is now. I think you may be confusing the role they play with their ability to live on. They're pretty much guaranteed to die, but that doesn't mean they don't have a role in the grand scheme of things, such as providing development to secondary characters.
First off, let me make it clear that it's not any one of these things that has convinced me that they will play no major role, but rather a combination of all of them.

But to answer your question it's mostly about presentation. Even if a character hasn't been given a name or hasn't said anything, you still may be able to tell the extent of the role they'll play just by their presentation (e.g. a dark forboding figure, sinisterly watching our heroes). These new ninjas are just sort of crammed into the panels like afterthoughts.

As for your Kabuto comparison, Kabuto was given a name and he did and said far more in the one chapter he was introduced then all 3 or 4 of the new ninjas combined. His major role may not have been immediately obvious, but I think it was pretty clear he would have some sort of meaningful relation to Naruto.

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Finally, your fourth point. I don't think it's as clear cut as that. You're saying that because he made a mistake by not giving development/screentime to his secondary characters, there's no reason he should do that for his tertiary characters. I disagree, by that logic, I could go on and say that he did give plenty of time to his secondary characters in part I, and that even if this is part II, we are still talking about the same author. It sounds like you're saying he can't develop them, when he has shown that he can.
Please stop comparing part 1 Kishi with part 2 Kishi, because they are too entirely different monsters. Part 2 Kishi has never even come close to the quality of part 1.

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Isn't he going to give his secondary characters screentime during this war?
Is he? I doubt it.

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Naruto is kept safe within the alliance headquarters, Sasuke is staying at Madara's hideout while his eyes cook, these facts seem to be contradicting your point.
All the secondary characters are going to fight a losing battle against the enemy, with no meaningful development for any of them and then Naruto is going to ride in on his white horse and destroy 90% of the army with his hand behind his back.

Wouldn't be the first time it happened.

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Originally Posted by kusanagi25 View Post
OK the i dont know why people are complaining about the designs its not like anyone remembered who they were. In the movie they were in it for a few seconds. They didnt even have a name we only know they had kekkei genkis.
That's what makes it even worse is, not only was it lazy, it was sneaky as well. He just took a bunch of dead fodder characters from a year-old movie that no one would probably recognize and put them into the manga either because he thought he was being clever or he was just being lazy (probably a mixture of both).

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Plus i can see oda doing it later on to with the characters from the last movie. They were pretty much fodder characters. How can Luffy beat Gold Rogers Rival?
I was hoping someone would bring this up. Tell me, did you miss that Chapter 0 special that was made specifically to tie in to the movie? The difference between Oda and Kishi is that Oda went all out for it. He made it so that Shiki and his crew would fit into the story in a way that made sense, and even made a special chapter explaining their backstory. Whereas Kishi said, "Hey, here's a bunch of fodder characters from that movie that came out a year ago. I'll just use them in the manga since I have no creativity and if anyone notices, I'll just say it was a brilliant tie-in." I seriously doubt any sort of thought went into Kishi implementing them into the manga.

Oh, and if you honestly think Oda would sink so low as to recycle characters from one of the movies (even a canon movie) into the manga proper, you clearly have no grasp of what kind of storyteller he is.
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Old 2010-11-11, 17:44   Link #80
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^Actually, Kishimoto has used several characters from the anime before. In fact, he has named several countries after countries first seen in the anime. So, this is not the first time he has done this "trick".

That being said, I still do not see why this matters nor do I see how it is lazy. They're his characters, and as long as their is no real reason they shouldn't be involved, I see no reason why they can't be involved in the manga...

p.s. Movie 10 is not canon in the slightest...
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