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Old 2010-11-22, 19:36   Link #21
roriconfan
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So... Sasuke aids Madara in order to kill everyone?
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Old 2010-11-22, 20:06   Link #22
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Originally Posted by roriconfan View Post
So... Sasuke aids Madara in order to kill everyone?
More like aids Madara so he can get his revenge on everyone in Konoha. Then he betrays and kills Madara. At least that is what Sasuke is thinking. Sasuke's objective is to make everyone pay that he feels slighted Itachi in his demented mind. And then restart the Uchiha clan. He can't do that with Madara around. He still doesn't know about Madara's Eye of the Moon Plan or Madara's intention to give him to Kabuto. But he knows he can't trust Madara. Kabuto, Madara, and Sauske are all snakes who are going to stab each other in the back at some point. But for now, they have a common enemy in the Alliance.

The big question is whether Sasuke will kill in this war? The rookies were saved from that becuase of the zombies and Zetsu clones. But Sasuke's potential targets are all human.
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Old 2010-11-22, 20:35   Link #23
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Gaara was probably appointed commander in chief because he is a kage and he was the kage that could be spared (probably the weakest kage).

Looking at all the team leaders and young punks in command, I'm thinking that these are the grunt army. There are probably some hidden and unannounced elite squadrons that are being taken care by the experienced and stronger guys/jounins.

The real life analogy would be infantry (young punk army) vs commandos.
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Old 2010-11-22, 23:12   Link #24
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
Making an informed decision in the midst of a controlled battle (where the likelihood of death is very distant) is nothing like actually being able to lead a battle and lead troops. At least if someone has attained the rank of Jounin others know that the individual has accomplished enough to warrant the rank and the responsibility that such a rank implies.

Shikimaru, for all his qualities, has never proven himself a leader, and only those that already know him actually listen to him. So, I find it very hard to believe that he has the command of an entire division (especially considering his father seems to be unassigned).



Why not? Are there no 20 year old Jounins in the entire 5 countries that specialize in long-range attacks now that Deidara is dead ?

Honestly, I think Shikimaru's position is simply for the fans. Personally, I would have been more satisfied if Temari was in charge, and she used Shikimaru as the brains (instead we get Kankuro in charge...). At least then a Jounin would be in charge, and Shikimaru would be doing what he does best: making plans and strategies.
Although I think we are arguing the same thing, let me just say this.

Shikamaru is not the "official" leader of the division. Gaara is the division general. Shikamaru, as his girlfriend Temari put it, the de facto leader for strategies and everything.

You do not have to listen long to Shikamaru to realize that his tactics and strategy and implementation are absolute top tier with no one to match it with.

You are definitely right, it is for the fans. You are right that people that do not know Shikamaru and only see his age, profile, and mission history, will not be impressed. But the same can be said about lots of rich young folks. Look at the creator of Facebook? It is hard to imagine him at that age to be that successful and so visionary.

I think Shikamaru is one of those cases.

Not sure why I'm such a huge advocate but that's my argument for the suspended belief why Shikamaru makes a very believable unofficial division leader and strategist in the minds of young and old folks alike.
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Old 2010-11-23, 12:48   Link #25
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Originally Posted by epyon96 View Post
Although I think we are arguing the same thing, let me just say this.

Shikamaru is not the "official" leader of the division. Gaara is the division general. Shikamaru, as his girlfriend Temari put it, the de facto leader for strategies and everything.

You do not have to listen long to Shikamaru to realize that his tactics and strategy and implementation are absolute top tier with no one to match it with.

You are definitely right, it is for the fans. You are right that people that do not know Shikamaru and only see his age, profile, and mission history, will not be impressed. But the same can be said about lots of rich young folks. Look at the creator of Facebook? It is hard to imagine him at that age to be that successful and so visionary.

I think Shikamaru is one of those cases.

Not sure why I'm such a huge advocate but that's my argument for the suspended belief why Shikamaru makes a very believable unofficial division leader and strategist in the minds of young and old folks alike.

We've been told Kakashi is smarter than Shikamaru, though. If Kakashi is smarter, surely there are plenty of other Jounin also more intelligent than Shikamaru.

I'm not really complaining - it's sort of illogical, but realistically we'd have to see tons of all-new characters that we don't care about. All the advisers and commanders should be people with experience fighting wars, but then we wouldn't care about them.

Zuckerberg was just lucky, though. :P He didn't do anything amazing (or even new.) He was in the right place, at the right time, and he knew the right people. That's more often than not much more important than what you're actually capable of. Maybe we could say this is true of Shikamaru too, since he is on good terms with Tsunade.
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Old 2010-11-23, 14:34   Link #26
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Sauske is not a conscientious objector in this war. He was really the one who set off this war back at the Kage Summit. He is considered an enemy of the Five Great Ninja Nations and a world-wide criminal. He is really no different than Kabuto. Only following Madara until he betrays him for his own goals. But until he does, he should be counted on Madara's side. Personally I believe it will be Sasuke who will capture Kirabi, dealing a major blow to the Alliance. Kirabi has to die so Naruto is the last jin.
I didn't say that Sasuke objects war or that he would rather fight for the alliance. This was a remark about the Madara's army vs Alliance Army statistics and possible events. I said that Madara will not allow Sasuke to come anywhere near Kabuto and because of that he cannot use Sasuke as part of his army.

And i think all this means that there will be 2 battlefields, one where the main alliance army will fight and one where B, Naruto and the 4 kages will fight. This also means that there can be 4 outcomes, or even 8 outcomes: the main army can lose or win, Madara can take both Naruto and B, or Madara takes only B. The worst for Madara would be to not take any demon and to also lose to the army.

I think the main army cannot lose, simply because that would mean the death of many named characters like Sakura or Hinata. Here i'm assuming that the Zetsu army would kill and eat them all if they lost and also that they would not run away if they are about to lose.

Naruto being taken also seems to be an impossible option, since he is the main hero, and there's noone who would save him. Except if Kabuto would save him for some secret reason. Another possibility would be that Sasuke saves him, but for that Sasuke would have to undergo a huge change during this war. A possible chance is if Naruto choses to save his comrades in the war instead of fighting Sasuke, and then Sasuke follows him, which leads them to Itachi, and Itachi+Naruto might be able to begin a change in Sasuke, that change can later develop Sasuke to decide he will interrupt the demon extraction process and save Naruto.

But the most likely is that B will be a casualty of this war, since Kishi will not allow Madara's failure at this point, and B does not have plot shield like Naruto. Also i expect that if the main army is losing this war Naruto will appear to save them, but that also means that he will not be taken.

This war will be a lot of fun to watch, there are so many possible ways for the story
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Old 2010-11-23, 14:50   Link #27
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Originally Posted by Shining Celebi View Post
We've been told Kakashi is smarter than Shikamaru, though. If Kakashi is smarter, surely there are plenty of other Jounin also more intelligent than Shikamaru.

I'm not really complaining - it's sort of illogical, but realistically we'd have to see tons of all-new characters that we don't care about. All the advisers and commanders should be people with experience fighting wars, but then we wouldn't care about them.

Zuckerberg was just lucky, though. :P He didn't do anything amazing (or even new.) He was in the right place, at the right time, and he knew the right people. That's more often than not much more important than what you're actually capable of. Maybe we could say this is true of Shikamaru too, since he is on good terms with Tsunade.
As for the Kakashi statement. I think that's clearly false considering Kakashi was more than willing to take directions from Shikamaru during the Hidan & Kakuza fight. Kakashi has not shown the level of ingenuity that Shikamaru has shown in his strategies.

I highly doubt Kakashi has an IQ that's as high as Shikamaru. It was only a statement said by Naruto who just happens to be fighting Kakashi in a training at the time and exhausting his energy. I doubt that was an actual proper assessment like how Asuma gauges Shikamaru's intelligence.

As for the luck element. I'm sure that is part of it too. Shikamaru knows how to "social network" in the Naruto world.
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Old 2010-11-23, 17:28   Link #28
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Raikage will shine. Since he is supreme commander he will be given an epic battle with either sasuke/maddy. I want to also see him zip around the battlefield WTFPAWNing all the little zetsu's
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Old 2010-11-23, 18:30   Link #29
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Raikage is in my list of KIA in this war... most of the old ninjas will die here.
Probably Bee will be the new Raikage.

You read it here first.
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Old 2010-11-23, 19:57   Link #30
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Raikage is in my list of KIA in this war... most of the old ninjas will die here.
Probably Bee will be the new Raikage.

You read it here first.
Bee will not be the new riakage. He will die so that naruto is the only jin left. This war's purpose is to capture naruto and bee. He will need to be captured so when sasuke/maddy fight naruto major stakes will be on the line. Tsuchikage will, along with *fingers crossed* tsunade. Raikage, he will be killed by sasuke T_T

Btw lol at the medical nin company haha ton ton.
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Old 2010-11-23, 22:59   Link #31
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Btw lol at the medical nin company haha ton ton.
He isn't food... is that clear?
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Old 2010-11-24, 08:53   Link #32
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I'm surprised that the alliance's only real strategy is to capture Kabuto. Don't they have people that can seal stuff? They do it to bijuu all the time.
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Old 2010-11-24, 11:20   Link #33
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As for the Kakashi statement. I think that's clearly false considering Kakashi was more than willing to take directions from Shikamaru during the Hidan & Kakuza fight. Kakashi has not shown the level of ingenuity that Shikamaru has shown in his strategies.

I highly doubt Kakashi has an IQ that's as high as Shikamaru. It was only a statement said by Naruto who just happens to be fighting Kakashi in a training at the time and exhausting his energy. I doubt that was an actual proper assessment like how Asuma gauges Shikamaru's intelligence.

As for the luck element. I'm sure that is part of it too. Shikamaru knows how to "social network" in the Naruto world.
At the beginning of Naruto Shipudden in naruto's fight against kakashi naruto said that kakashi was as intelligent as shikamaru, had a good nose like kiba, had the same eyes as sasuke, and was simply as strong as all the genins together.. An all-round fighter.. but that's just it.. Naruto back then, based this on the genins!! How they were pre-timeskip, but since then it has been mentioned that kiba's nose has gotten better, sasukes sharingan is also undoubtefully better then kakashis and finally shikamaru is definetly now not simply as smart as kakashi but smarter...
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Old 2010-11-24, 13:42   Link #34
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At the beginning of Naruto Shipudden in naruto's fight against kakashi naruto said that kakashi was as intelligent as shikamaru, had a good nose like kiba, had the same eyes as sasuke, and was simply as strong as all the genins together.. An all-round fighter.. but that's just it.. Naruto back then, based this on the genins!! How they were pre-timeskip, but since then it has been mentioned that kiba's nose has gotten better, sasukes sharingan is also undoubtefully better then kakashis and finally shikamaru is definetly now not simply as smart as kakashi but smarter...
Yes but Kakashi is more experienced is more powerful than Shikamaru. He is 10.5 points higher in the data book than Shikamaru has has 2 decade more experience than he is. I agree with James I don't see how Shikamaru got proxy leader. Yea he is smarter but he isn't as near good of a fighter. If Sasuke attacked Shikamaru would get pwned where as Kakashi would stand soemwhat of a chance. So really what we are seeing is Kishi a** pulling here. There is no reason Shikamaru should have got that position over more experience Jonin.
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Old 2010-11-24, 14:20   Link #35
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Shikamaru is plot protected... so, if Kishi makes him wiser than Kakashi... despite any logic, well...
What we can say?
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Old 2010-11-24, 14:34   Link #36
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Naruto also said Kakashi was better at taijutsu than Lee. Of course Naruto was comparing Kakashi to the Lee of two and a half years earlier. Well the third databook has Lee at 5 for taijutsu and Kakashi at 4.5. Kishi clearly set Kakashi at the beginning of Shippuden as a measuring stick the other rookies would pass by in their specific fields.

Shikamaru is smarter and a better strategist than Kakashi.
Sasuke has a better Sharingan than Kakashi.
Kiba is a better tracker and has a better sense of smell than Kakashi.
Rock Lee is better at taijutsu than Kakashi.

All these characters are not as experienced as Kakashi. But they have surpassed him in their specialties.

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Yes but Kakashi is more experienced is more powerful than Shikamaru. He is 10.5 points higher in the data book than Shikamaru has has 2 decade more experience than he is. I agree with James I don't see how Shikamaru got proxy leader. Yea he is smarter but he isn't as near good of a fighter. If Sasuke attacked Shikamaru would get pwned where as Kakashi would stand soemwhat of a chance. So really what we are seeing is Kishi a** pulling here. There is no reason Shikamaru should have got that position over more experience Jonin.
Nobody wanted to see Baki in charge of anything. Or insert the name of some random jonin Kishi could stick in there. James was 100% right when he said this was fanservice. This whole war is 100% fanservice!

Look at Gaara. Gaara should NOT be leading anything. I don't care if he is a Kage. But it doesn't matter. This is not being written as a real war. It's written to entertain. So Gaara all of a sudden is General George S. Patton.

And as a few others have already pointed out, Shikamaru is going to prove himself much more capable than some experienced jonin that lacks an over 200 IQ and his hax wisdom. Do you really think he is going to fail near the end of the manga and get his girlfriend with the fan and fat friend killed?

All the attention will be on the kids pwning. Look at the Ambush Division. The attention is on Kankuro, Sai, and Omoi. All teenagers. None of whom have been to war. The Sand invasion doesn't count. But they are the focus over some random jonin fodder no matter how experienced they might be.
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Old 2010-11-24, 14:58   Link #37
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^Kakashi was never really a measuring stick for the rookies; he's a measuring stick for the villains. Every good villain has to down Kakashi, and then we know they are a serious threat and when Naruto (or Sasuke) defeat them later the victory means something...

That being said, Kakashi is one of the few "Jack-of-all-Trades" Shinobi in the series. Lacking specific specialties, he ranks as one of the highest Shinobi solely due to his complimentary abilities/techniques. What he lacks in Taijutsu, he makes up for in Ninjutsu; what he lacks in raw strategic ability, he makes up for in experience, "outside-of-the-box" thinking, and a Sharingan; what he lacks in tracking he makes up for with Summoning; etc. Amongst the rookies, only Sasuke and Naruto can defeat him, and that is due mostly to overwhelming power.
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Old 2010-11-24, 15:43   Link #38
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I personally wouldn't call giving shikamaru an important position in the platoons fan serive..
The fan service part is the fact that apparently shikamaru is really as smart as he was made out to be. he isn't only the smartest of konoha, but also of the other villages. But in the real world geniuses are born aswell... So why can't some character in a manga be? Nobody found it weird when mozart got the chance to present his theatre piece to some few kings at the age of 10
Let alone 16-18(age of the current rookies) its a perfect age to be sent to war.. Period in your life when you are most fit and ready for war
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Old 2010-11-24, 16:12   Link #39
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Let alone 16-18(age of the current rookies) its a perfect age to be sent to war.. Period in your life when you are most fit and ready for war
Because you don't know sh*t about war...
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Old 2010-11-24, 17:52   Link #40
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So really what we are seeing is Kishi a** pulling here. There is no reason Shikamaru should have got that position over more experience Jonin.
But he wasn't given in any real position. We know Temari considers him unofficial leader (even though she outranks him), but technically Shika just another soldier and Gaara is leader of the division

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulquorria
All the attention will be on the kids pwning. Look at the Ambush Division. The attention is on Kankuro, Sai, and Omoi. All teenagers. None of whom have been to war. The Sand invasion doesn't count. But they are the focus over some random jonin fodder no matter how experienced they might be.
Well said.

Age and experience shouldn't be that big of an issue when you really think about it. It's not like they're kids being drafted out of high school. These are youth who've trained to be killers and assassins almost since the time they learn to walk. 13 years is old enough to become an ANBU captain. Can you really call foul on a 16 year-old leading troops?

The former rookies lack war experience, however as ninja they do have combat experience. Some of them actually have a distinct advantage since they've fought against Akatsuki who make up a good part of the opposing army. If the platoon find themselves faced with Kakuzu or Pain, Shika will be one of the few that has an idea of what the enemy is capable of and how to deal with it.
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