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Old 2011-12-01, 19:31   Link #281
Kaijo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 00-Raiser View Post
But we already knew that anyways. Might not be so good for some one who's never seen the series before and is going into the movie blind but we're able to fill in these blanks.
Yeah, WE know, because we've seen the series. To someone who hasn't, though, they'd have questions about Nanoha's decisions and actions, since they wouldn't know her backstory at all. And it's fairly odd for the title character to get 0 backstory in the course of a movie.

Hell, I had people outright wonder at Nanoha's maturity in the series when I showed it to them, and the movie cuts out any and all explanation to that effect. Although, I admit, the movie brings enough flash and pizzazz and pushes the viewer along rapidly enough that most people don't question it.

It just kills me that we could have cut at least some of the Fate/Precia/Linith backstory, at least 5 minutes worth, to have Nanoha reflect a bit on her first encounter with Arisa and Suzuka. Hell, Linith should have been cut altogether. It was nice seeing her, but she showed no purpose, and her disappearance between flashback and current events is never explained, either.

So, thus my concern for the A's movie. Already, we knew that there was precious little they could cut in A's, unlike S1, and fit it into a 2 hour movie. And one has to be careful about which threads one pulls out, as they could find the entire tapestry falling apart.
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Old 2011-12-01, 19:38   Link #282
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I also resented the cut on the feud of Nanoha and Arisa, like Kaijo said it helps to flesh Nanoha personality a bit more and understand the motivations of her character better. The MOVIE 1st did only an "ok" job with that but the MOVIE 1st manga compensates that. Not only the feud between Arisa and Nanoha was more fleshed out, we also get to see the after math and also the event makes Nanoha to continue her reflection right to the origins of her motivation to become stronger which are strongly related to her family problems of the past.

I really hope to see a MOVIE 2nd A's manga that will tells another alternate story, the manga format will do wonders in fleshing out the cast more.

....if that's the case, i wonder if we could get to see Suzuki knocking Fate out of the sky with a volley-ball again xD!
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Old 2011-12-01, 19:49   Link #283
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
But Demi, the feelings behind them do have basis in reality. We all know Fate is your favorite character, and we know how someone can get upset if they feel their favorite character is being maligned in a thread. We all like Fate, too, but we like the other characters as well. Given how the first movie went (sidelining Arisa and Suzuka in exchange for more Fate backstory), you can't say the feelings aren't without legitimacy.
I understand this reasoning, but I wouldn't blame it on a character. Feels like Fate's being scorned sometimes just because she has a significant role in the franchise.

As for the 1st movie...What did you want? For them to replicate the original season from beginning to end? Fate was not the only one who got focus because of the back story. While I don't think the movie was intended to be Precia centric like Raiser believes, I do think she got the most screen time out of those flashbacks. Not to mention Linith as well. Some characters got less screen time because of it, but not all of that focus was shifted to a single character. And call it what you will, but I think it was more important than going deeper into Nanoha's back story. If Tsuzuki wanted new content for the movie, I think that was one of the better choices.
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Old 2011-12-01, 19:54   Link #284
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Still, seeing Nanoha's family backstory should be a very powerfull moment in the movie. His father burned on a hospital bed with Nanoha lamenting her impotence over her family's suffering looking at her small hands left me a powerfull feeling, far stronger than Precia's cruel moments against Fate.
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Old 2011-12-01, 19:58   Link #285
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Well that has nothing to do with flashbacks, and it was part of the original series. And most of it was cut from the movie to begin with...

I don't remember exactly, but wasn't that hospital scene like a still shot in the series? Blame Tsuzuki for that because it could have easily been fit into the movie without sacrificing anything at all. Also, Nanoha's back story wouldn't even focus on Nanoha because it would be all about her family. It would show why she is insecure at times, but that was mostly brought on by being alone most of the time. If you want flashbacks of the Takamachi family, that would better fit into an Ova.
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Old 2011-12-01, 20:04   Link #286
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Wasn't my comment specifically talking about the creators making the choice of focusing on the popular character? I wasn't faulting Fate for any of that.
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Old 2011-12-01, 20:12   Link #287
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Originally Posted by Demi. View Post
Also, Nanoha's back story wouldn't even focus on Nanoha because it would be all about her family.
Not exactly, the flashback shows her family but the main focus is the impact the event and their treatement of Nanoha have affected her. She become lonely because she was too focused on being happy and usefull so her family don't worry about her and laments her for being the only thing she can do about the situation the manga connected that with the moment when she witness Arisa bullying Suzuka and interceded to stop her, that was Nanoha's first attempt to solve a situation using her own strenght and found honest friends in the process. That developed her into the girl that Fate meets, the girl who saw someone who needed her help and that becomes the main driving of Nanoha's actions from that point onwards.

That addition in her backstory was a pretty brilliant move in my opinion since help to create solid roots for Nanoha's background and who she is now.
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Old 2011-12-01, 20:20   Link #288
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I just can't picture it in my mind, how a Nanoha flashback with a similar length to Precia/Linith/Fate would work. It seems like something that could be easily tread upon within the span of a few minutes. But if that's all it would take, then it could have easily fit into the movie. Another case of Tsuzuki's bad directing. There were a lot of scenes in the movie that were scrapped which I really liked. To the point where I would have rather had them over the Linith/Fate/Precia back story, but for the sake of being different, I fail to see how this was a bad decision. First season viewers already know Nanoha's reasons, they hardly knew anything about Fate's. Reverse the roles...and profit!

And let's not forget that a lot of people complained about the first four episodes of the first season...So it's not a surprise that Tsuzuki would scrap those first in order to make room for everything else. And it was the least popular series in terms of sales, so opting for something different was not a bad idea. He just didn't execute it perfectly, but it's not like Tsuzuki is a great director or anything.

Quote:
Wasn't my comment specifically talking about the creators making the choice of focusing on the popular character? I wasn't faulting Fate for any of that.
Well, I'd have to look back, but I wasn't referring to every poster.
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Old 2011-12-01, 20:48   Link #289
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The more I think about it, my second biggest concern right now, just below the prospect of Hayate and the Wolkenritter getting reduced screentime, is how the absence of the Lieze twins will affect the story. I mean, A's greatly emits a cringeworthy "we could have avoided all of this!!!" vibe, but some of them could could be blamed to Graham and his familiars muddling things. Without them, I'm afraid my irritation on how the plot forces the confrontations by failure in communication will grow beyond tolerable levels.

Btw, I agree with Kaijo on Fate's lotus eater dream in that it should be cut, especially since she already got many focus on her personal life back at Movie 1st. If Tsuzuki leaves this part untouched or cut while the others got reduced screen time, well...might as well rename it Mahou Shoujo Lyrical Fate for future installments.
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Old 2011-12-01, 20:48   Link #290
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Demi. View Post
Well there is no precedent outside of "lol Fate is popular."

I got someone else to translate the sentence Mow Yun wasn't sure of.

"Nanoha continues being the main character like in the previous one, but like in the TV version the worrying, hesitating and being troubled will not be the story's focus for the most part."

He said it has strange sentence structure, but that should be right.

Being the main character in one of Tsuzuki's story just means you're destined to be a necessity towards the final battle. Not like it's some huge importance or anything.
Thanks for the additional translation. I wasn't sure at all if I got it anywhere close to the mark on that part, and that makes much more sense. Also what I get for skimming while at 1 AM and needing to sleep >_>

Though I also think the Wolkenritter and Hayate will get some more screentime. Since Fate had some flashback scenes to flesh out her past, it might be possible that the Wolkenrittter receive some as well. It's also likely that Yuuno will still teleport Fate in, but he won't get any actual fighting scenes, which still makes sense.

I'm also interested to see how they will handle the transition from fighting the book of darkness to completing it to working together against the defense program without the Lieze twins, if my translation is correct. (Text: 劇場版の大きな変更点はグレアム提督とその使い魔の双子が出てこない事。)

This might allow them to give more character development to Hayate, Nanoha, and Fate in this case. (Just a conjecture)

And please, don't take my rough translation as any sort of absolute truth or anything, I'm not confident enough in my ability to defend what I translate if it actually does turn out to be incorrect.
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Old 2011-12-01, 20:48   Link #291
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Originally Posted by Demi. View Post
I just can't picture it in my mind, how a Nanoha flashback with a similar length to Precia/Linith/Fate would work. It seems like something that could be easily tread upon within the span of a few minutes. But if that's all it would take, then it could have easily fit into the movie.
I never said Nanoha's flashback could replace Fate's. But i shouldn't be against the idea of shortening Fate's flashback a bit more in order to flesh out that scene more, like you said, Nanoha's background can ve covered quickly in around 7 minutes, just take a way some of the long panning camera scenes from Fate's backstory and voila!
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Old 2011-12-01, 21:10   Link #292
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Originally Posted by Mow Yun View Post
It's also likely that Yuuno will still teleport Fate in, but he won't get any actual fighting scenes, which still makes sense.
I'm a bit concerned about this:

- nanoha and Fate are very good friends. How this happens again will be a bit different from the TV version.
- The story will begin after the end of the trial from 1st's Precia Testarossa Incident.

Makes it sounds as if Nanoha and Fate have already reunited at the start of the A's movie. So I'm not sure how the Yuuno teleport scene will work, or how Fate randomly appears to save Nanoha if Fate is already there with her.

I think it has to happen since it was specificially brought up during the bridge scene, similarly to the series.
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Old 2011-12-01, 21:12   Link #293
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Maybe both get trashed by Vita and Signum appearing togheter?
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Old 2011-12-02, 00:17   Link #294
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Demi. View Post
I understand this reasoning, but I wouldn't blame it on a character. Feels like Fate's being scorned sometimes just because she has a significant role in the franchise.
It's not that at all. I do agree that Fate has a significant role. And I completely understand if Yuuno has a much smaller role.

But you have to understand why Fate's role continues to grow: pandering. I don't blame the creators for giving the fanatics more of what they crave, but I honestly feel that, when that begins to overshadow and take away from other characters (Yuuno, Arf, Arisa, Suzuka, Chrono, etc.), then it is to the detriment of the series. Even when it takes away from the main title character herself!

Quote:
As for the 1st movie...What did you want? For them to replicate the original season from beginning to end? Fate was not the only one who got focus because of the back story. While I don't think the movie was intended to be Precia centric like Raiser believes, I do think she got the most screen time out of those flashbacks. Not to mention Linith as well. Some characters got less screen time because of it, but not all of that focus was shifted to a single character. And call it what you will, but I think it was more important than going deeper into Nanoha's back story. If Tsuzuki wanted new content for the movie, I think that was one of the better choices.
I can't believe I'm saying this, but... I agree with Aki. I didn't expect a long, 30 minute flashback for Arisa, Suzuka, and Nanoha's family. It probably could have been done with 5 minutes of screentime total. I haven't clocked it, but I think the whole Precia/Fate/Linith backstory, had something like 20+ minutes of flashback time; considerably more than it needed to be. After all, the series made us understand that backstory just fine.

And considering that so much of S1 *could* be cut, it lent itself better to a movie format, and for the expansion of Fate's backstory; in that case, I'll agree that it was a decent move. I just didn't expect it to come at the expense of Nanoha and her backstory as it relates to Arisa, Suzuka, and her family. I would have cut the Linith parts in order to make the time for Nanoha's backstory.

Hence, the reason for the legitimate fears about A's. If Tsuzuki can cut that kind of important stuff in the first move,. which should have been a no-brainer to leave in... then what chance does the A's movie have? It has far less that it can cut and still remain a solid narrative. Everything is potentially on the chopping block.

Sure, call me a negative Nancy that's poo-pooing something before it's even come out, but... I had my hopes up for the first movie, too. And now I have that "fool me once" feeling.
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Old 2011-12-02, 01:27   Link #295
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But you have to understand why Fate's role continues to grow: pandering. I don't blame the creators for giving the fanatics more of what they crave, but I honestly feel that, when that begins to overshadow and take away from other characters (Yuuno, Arf, Arisa, Suzuka, Chrono, etc.), then it is to the detriment of the series. Even when it takes away from the main title character herself!
Well then I guess no one is to blame, since you can't blame fans for liking a character.

I just don't think Tsuzuki compared sales figures between characters and opted to shaft every character outside of the one to come in first.
Quote:
I can't believe I'm saying this, but... I agree with Aki. I didn't expect a long, 30 minute flashback for Arisa, Suzuka, and Nanoha's family. It probably could have been done with 5 minutes of screentime total. I haven't clocked it, but I think the whole Precia/Fate/Linith backstory, had something like 20+ minutes of flashback time; considerably more than it needed to be. After all, the series made us understand that backstory just fine.
And as I said before, this is more a result of Tsuzuki's directing abilities. Do you think Tsuzuki only wants to please one fan base? Why focus on one fan base, when you can focus on two! Assuming he invests 5 minutes worth of movie content into making Nanoha's back story coherent. It would hardly detract from any Fate scenes, so I doubt he had that on his mind when he opted to exclude it from the movie.

Quote:
And considering that so much of S1 *could* be cut, it lent itself better to a movie format, and for the expansion of Fate's backstory; in that case, I'll agree that it was a decent move. I just didn't expect it to come at the expense of Nanoha and her backstory as it relates to Arisa, Suzuka, and her family. I would have cut the Linith parts in order to make the time for Nanoha's backstory.
Even though there was a lot to of content capable of being cut, a movie format needs to cut a little over half of the entire series. So it becomes complicated to fit everything in despite how much of the first season was dispensable.

Quote:
Hence, the reason for the legitimate fears about A's. If Tsuzuki can cut that kind of important stuff in the first move,. which should have been a no-brainer to leave in... then what chance does the A's movie have? It has far less that it can cut and still remain a solid narrative. Everything is potentially on the chopping block.
It's possible certain things you think should stay...will end up on the chopping block, but this "fear" is only brought on by what happened during a single movie. Tsuzuki already mentioned that the A's AU will be quite different from the original. So unlike the first movie, there might be a ton of stuff cut, and a ton of new content added. To name a few:

-No Lieze twins
-How Nanoha and Fate reuinte will be different
-Reinforce will appear often and earlier then in the original.

etc.etc.etc...
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Old 2011-12-02, 04:33   Link #296
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I understand this reasoning, but I wouldn't blame it on a character. Feels like Fate's being scorned sometimes just because she has a significant role in the franchise.
It's not that she's scorned because she has a significant role, but that she has a significant role at the cost of other characters. Sometimes in ways which add little to nothing to the main story. We can argue the rationality of scorning characters because of this for decades, but it does not change those feelings.

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Originally Posted by Demi. View Post
It's possible certain things you think should stay...will end up on the chopping block, but this "fear" is only brought on by what happened during a single movie.
Ahh, see, it's not just the first movie. A's wasted almost an entire episode with the book of darkness illusion, and StrikerS involved Fate with the Nanoha Vivio dynamic despite it adding nothing to the resolution of said arc, since Fate went her own merry way with the Project F plot which in itself was also a subplot that led absolutely nowhere.

So yes, people are worried. Because there is plenty of precedent.
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Old 2011-12-02, 04:46   Link #297
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Baseless assumptions since you can't read Tsuzuki's mind. Series are planned out months before they're actually animated, so those scenes were already decided at the start of each season. And I don't believe Fate's true popularity came until A's to begin with.
Just because something doesn't have a direct relation to the plot, that doesn't mean it doesn't belong. I'm not sure a series exists that doesn't go off on a tangent at least occasionally.

At least with movie 1st, things were altered to differ from the original, but anything else is nothing more than an assumption.

Yeah, pretty sure I've had enough fun for now.
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Old 2011-12-02, 04:55   Link #298
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Just because something doesn't have a direct relation to the plot, that doesn't mean it doesn't belong. I'm not sure a series exists that doesn't go off on a tangent at least occasionally.
That's right, a series. We're talking about the movie, which all of us, you included, agree need to have some scenes chopped up due to time constraints.

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We're talking about a five hour series being condensed into a 2 1/2 hr (maximum) movie...And it's a series where few things are of little importance. There is no way around shafting characters. Every character will lose some scenes, it just so happens that Yuno and Arf only have a limited number of significant scenes.
Which means scenes that are not plot-critical must be sacrificed. And I'm sorry to say this, but Fate's dream sequence didn't affect the plot much. Even if she never chose to go, she'll wake up anyway as soon as Hayate (gently) smack some senses into Reinforce. If they want to save time, they could just replace the last temptation scene with her being put into stasis or coma or something.
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Old 2011-12-02, 05:00   Link #299
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But my last post wasn't referring to the movie. At all.
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Old 2011-12-02, 05:06   Link #300
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You would be amazed how often things are changed last minute, even in animation.

But really, there are only two reasons to add scenes that serve little to no purpose for the general story.

1. The character in question is the director's favorite.
2. The character in question is a fan favorite.

Pick your poison.
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