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Old 2012-05-01, 22:43   Link #661
Lhklan
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... Yuuno not a big deal? Okay, then I dare you to take him out of the equation COMPLETELY. See if the story proceed the same way.
A few possible scenarios:
1: Yuuno never went to Earth. Thus, Nanoha won't get Raising Heart => Fate not being saved => Hayate not being saved.
2: A TSAB soldier went to Earth. Nanoha still get Raising Heart, but the man will be a strict supervisor => Fate get saved, but get a harsher sentence => Hayate might not be saved.
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Old 2012-05-01, 23:22   Link #662
ditto526
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Originally Posted by Lhklan View Post
@ditto526
... Yuuno not a big deal? Okay, then I dare you to take him out of the equation COMPLETELY. See if the story proceed the same way.
A few possible scenarios:
1: Yuuno never went to Earth. Thus, Nanoha won't get Raising Heart => Fate not being saved => Hayate not being saved.
2: A TSAB soldier went to Earth. Nanoha still get Raising Heart, but the man will be a strict supervisor => Fate get saved, but get a harsher sentence => Hayate might not be saved.
i will admit that he is needed to get the plot moving, however after Nanoha learns about the magic, is he really needed for the story, apparently not as he was all but eliminated in the movie, and i might be wrong but i believe the sentence was worked on by Chrono and not Yuuno,
who knows what his roll will be in the new movie, i believe it will still be minor roll and therefore the story could be done without him, just by making a few minor changes, i know you will not agree, but no story should ever depend on a minor character for the story to move on
i sorry if this upsets you, but it is what i believe
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Old 2012-05-01, 23:23   Link #663
Akiyoshi
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Bottomline: If there is going to be a fight between Lindy and Signum, Signum's possible loss (and I do say possible because we have no clue how this'll end) hardly needs something that automatically signifies the end of the movie.
I can't believe i'm going to do this but i'll use the same argument you used to defend Cypha back in the day.

If Lindy really beats Signum then most of the tension of the movie will be killed caus there won't be a real struggle from the good guys side as we know that Lindy could always jump and trash Signum or any of the wolks in case they crosses path with our heroes again. Even if signum have more battles after that scene the tension will be still lessened cuase in our minds will stand the fact that "meh, it doesn't matter, Lindy can beat her anyway".

It will make more sense if it ends up being a climatic battle near the end of the movie (it'll still hurt to see Signum worfed again but at least this time will make sense) because it will be the right moment for the heroes to emerge victorious.

I wonder if Signum will be beaten twice in the movie (one by Lindy and then by Fate). Vita should consider to sign for leadership if that happens xDU
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Old 2012-05-02, 00:53   Link #664
Lhklan
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The sentence was argued by both Yuuno and Chrono.
I agree that no story should ever be depend on a minor character. However, in both the original series and A's, Yuuno isn't exactly a minor character. He's one of Nanoha first allies, and helped her with many things.
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Old 2012-05-02, 01:01   Link #665
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I'm glad I'll never lose my love in my favorite characters, just because they lose a fight now and then.
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Old 2012-05-02, 01:13   Link #666
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I'm glad I'll never lose my love in my favorite characters, just because they lose a fight now and then.
Me neither, but you know the saying: "love is suffering" ...and i had been suffering a lot xDU
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Old 2012-05-02, 01:44   Link #667
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Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
I can't believe i'm going to do this but i'll use the same argument you used to defend Cypha back in the day.

If Lindy really beats Signum then most of the tension of the movie will be killed caus there won't be a real struggle from the good guys side as we know that Lindy could always jump and trash Signum or any of the wolks in case they crosses path with our heroes again. Even if signum have more battles after that scene the tension will be still lessened cuase in our minds will stand the fact that "meh, it doesn't matter, Lindy can beat her anyway".

It will make more sense if it ends up being a climatic battle near the end of the movie (it'll still hurt to see Signum worfed again but at least this time will make sense) because it will be the right moment for the heroes to emerge victorious.

I wonder if Signum will be beaten twice in the movie (one by Lindy and then by Fate). Vita should consider to sign for leadership if that happens xDU
Yes, because everyone knows that if you're able to trounce a single skilled person in battle you can take on an entire army of eldritch magic-stealing programs! /sarcasm

Do you even listen to yourself talk anymore, Aki? If Lindy was able to defeat Signum, so what? Doesn't mean the Wolkenritter can't gang up on her to defeat her. Or distract her and let Shamal take her magic as well, which is far more likely to happen.

Now will you just shut up about your damn sore spot with Signum losing to Cypha? We're all getting goddamn sick and tired of it.
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Old 2012-05-02, 01:52   Link #668
ditto526
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Originally Posted by Lhklan View Post
@ditto526
The sentence was argued by both Yuuno and Chrono.
I agree that no story should ever be depend on a minor character. However, in both the original series and A's, Yuuno isn't exactly a minor character. He's one of Nanoha first allies, and helped her with many things.
this is true, but because of the time restraints, something needs to go and it will not be Nanoha or Fate, nor can it be the wolkenritter, Hayate, therefore it will be the minor characters of the series. ie. Yuuno and to some extent Arf, along with Arisa and Suzaka, as you only have a little over two hrs to tell the story some sacrifices will need to be made, while it might be nice to have all the characters involved, it is not practical and since this is different telling of the story, they can change what they want and still make a great movie
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Old 2012-05-02, 01:56   Link #669
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Yes, because everyone knows that if you're able to trounce a single skilled person in battle you can take on an entire army of eldritch magic-stealing programs! /sarcasm
4 knights are hardly an army, specially against a skilled Over S-ranker like Lindy.

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If Lindy was able to defeat Signum, so what? Doesn't mean the Wolkenritter can't gang up on her to defeat her. Or distract her and let Shamal take her magic as well, which is far more likely to happen.
First off, Lindy will probably attempt to capture Signum after giving her the beating of her life. Second, i wonder how much could Vita, Shamal and Zafira could accomplish against such a broken opponent who more likely will be supported by her own crew (sure, they're all red shirts but are a big annoying bunch of them xDU). Third, Shamal's core stealing technique only work on severly weakened opponents and assuming Lindy is far more powerfull than all of them that seems unlikely xDU

Well, there's also the detail that i doubt the wolkenritter will resort to such cowardly tactics (gang up) to accomplish something, seeing at how they fight on one-on-one duels most of the time. But i give the benefit of the doubt on that regard because with Hayate's life on the line i guess they'll probably willing to behave like cowards in order to save her.
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Old 2012-05-02, 01:59   Link #670
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Remind me where it's said that Lindy's unbeatable in battle? Remind me where it's said that Shamal can only core-grab on severely weakened people? Your own twisted little mind doesn't count as a source.
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Old 2012-05-02, 02:01   Link #671
Akiyoshi
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Remind me where it's said that Lindy's unbeatable in battle? Remind me where it's said that Shamal can only core-grab on severely weakened people? Your own twisted little mind doesn't count as a source.
People stormed me with tons of theories and assumptions about how Lindy should be able to trash Signum so i'm just reflecting what i've read. About Shamal's core stealing technique it's on the wikia and in the A's DVD Vol. 1 Booklet
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Old 2012-05-02, 02:07   Link #672
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Oh right, Nanoha was injured.... (in the process of healing).
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Old 2012-05-02, 03:23   Link #673
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Being Aki is suffering. :/

There are many scenarios we can contrive. For example, Fate gets drained for some other reason when fighting Signum, and Lindy manages to intercept her a bit later. If she's already worn then it makes it more reason that Lindy has the upper hand. But then something like... Signum fakes a surrender and does a sucker attack to take herself down with Lindy, causing enough chaos and damage for Shamal to drain Lindy too.

We could also have it the other way around. She doesn't fight Fate in the desert, but fights Lindy as such, and Fate manages to barely beat Signum later on, who hasn't recovered yet. But then that wouldn't satisfy Aki either.

Barring that we can always have a hostage situation or some shit. Or this "we need to give up this fight and chase because something will explode and kill tons of people"

Maybe we can make the Wolkies super bold and super desperate by having them perform a sneak attack on the TSAB crew stationed in the area-- nobody's gonna expect that as that would be considered suicide. It would be dangerous but would offer the biggest prizes in magic to add to the book. The only thing needed to contrive this is to make it so that Hayate's situation is so bad now that she will not make it to the end of the week. In this, they will sneak attack and maybe pull a super hidden technique or two out the ass and drain like all the redshirts around dry. We could go from that path.

It could also be like that Lindy is really strong, but more of a bombardment type (much like Hayate herself). It'd be interesting to see her engage Reinforce too, but fail as well.

I'm just really writing crap as it comes off the top of my head. I'm sure Tsuzuki can do better... I hope. In any case, the stronger person doesn't always win the fight.
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Old 2012-05-02, 03:30   Link #674
Akiyoshi
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I'm just really writing crap as it comes off the top of my head. I'm sure Tsuzuki can do better... I hope.
Me too, Tsuzuki is a very curious person able to write very opposite quality stuff like MOVIE 1st manga and FORCE at the same time. MOVIE 1st also was really cool despite some minor details, but the closer MOVIE 2nd is the more nervous i'm getting >_<
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Old 2012-05-02, 03:41   Link #675
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I can't believe i'm going to do this but i'll use the same argument you used to defend Cypha back in the day.

If Lindy really beats Signum then most of the tension of the movie will be killed caus there won't be a real struggle from the good guys side as we know that Lindy could always jump and trash Signum or any of the wolks in case they crosses path with our heroes again. Even if signum have more battles after that scene the tension will be still lessened cuase in our minds will stand the fact that "meh, it doesn't matter, Lindy can beat her anyway".

It will make more sense if it ends up being a climatic battle near the end of the movie (it'll still hurt to see Signum worfed again but at least this time will make sense) because it will be the right moment for the heroes to emerge victorious.

I wonder if Signum will be beaten twice in the movie (one by Lindy and then by Fate). Vita should consider to sign for leadership if that happens xDU
Fallacious argument. It assumes that the fight happens both A: Early in the series and B: That Lindy trashes Signum easily. Neither is as certain to happen as you make it out to be.

Again the center of your reasoning seems to be that such a battle would be a curbstomp. If the battle in equal and ends in a close victory for Lindy, then the tension is still there. Heck, it would be heightened because the next time Fate would fight Signum the common reaction among the audience will be "Do you think she'll be allright? I mean, even Lindy had a hard time with Signum..."

And for pitty's sake Aki, actually try to read up on the Worf Effect for once. The Worf Effect applies to unknown new villains to establish them as threats. A hero beating up a villain (even a tragic one such as Signum) does not apply the Worf Effect.
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Old 2012-05-02, 03:51   Link #676
Akiyoshi
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Again the center of your reasoning seems to be that such a battle would be a curbstomp. If the battle in equal and ends in a close victory for Lindy, then the tension is still there. Heck, it would be heightened because the next time Fate would fight Signum the common reaction among the audience will be "Do you think she'll be allright? I mean, even Lindy had a hard time with Signum..."
As i've said it will depend mostly on Lindy as we already know the limits of what Signum is able to do in a battle. For starters we can safely asume Lindy is more likely on Hayate's league powerwise thanks to the events of Season One/MOVIE 1st. As Signum can't hope to match her in raw power her only win condition is to best Lindy in front combat, if Lindy happens to be as skilled as people are implying her to be then Signum's only win condition will dissapear and curbstomp ensues. Cold numbers xDU

About the tension with Fate i guess it could be possible but then one we'll be left wondering why Lindy just don't swoop in the fight and trash Signum again xDU
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Old 2012-05-02, 03:57   Link #677
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Cold numbers? You're just giving me theories based on nothing but your own opinion.
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Old 2012-05-02, 04:05   Link #678
Akiyoshi
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Cold numbers? You're just giving me theories based on nothing but your own opinion.
Fine, "Warm Numbers" then. Since we have an "X" variable in the equation which is represented by Lindy's unkown fighting skills.
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Old 2012-05-02, 04:26   Link #679
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Fighting skills, experience, location, emotional condition, physical condition, ally condition, ally location, motivation, weapon condition... the list of variables goes on and on. And that's without plot armor, which basically throws all logic out the window and will just go for what the author thinks is cool.
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Old 2012-05-02, 05:16   Link #680
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I notice that Lindy is holding Durandal, a device that was specifically designed to seal the Book of Darkness. So I think she's talking sealing it away. In the scene directly before that, we have Lindy crying out for Clyde. By setting the trailer up this way, it is emphasizing that Lindy understands the dangers of the BoD on a personal level. And that she has an investment in making sure that it doesn't wreak havoc again. It's made pretty clear near the start of the trailer with the calm moments and the Harloawn family photo (?) that the BoD incident is going to interrupt the peace in a major way. You've also got Lindy looking at a photo of her, Chrono and Clyde in the first trailer.

What I'm saying is, that everything points to Lindy trying put a stopper on a threat that once tore her family apart before. She doesn't want see it happen again. It makes sense that she's wants to end it all together with the power of the Durandal, but Vita interrupts Lindy's to stop them from completing the Book of Darkness.

Of course, I don't know the exact details of how the incident will play out in this version. But from what we've seen, that very much seems to be the basic set up here.
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