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Old 2010-12-03, 09:30   Link #101
ronin myael
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Originally Posted by Fukitsu Naruto View Post
Well, Killer Bee did tremble at the mere mention of him so it is possible the 2 encountered each other in battle where Minato displayed the jutsu. Though at this point we can only speculate.
he could tremble out of excitement. who knows? people tremble for a number of reasons. he and the hachibi were having problems with how to teach naruto the bijuu bomb knowing how dangerous it is and how uncooperative the kyuubi could be. when naruto revealed details about the rasengan and the yondaime, it gave him the solution to that problem. so maybe he trembled because of that.
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Old 2010-12-03, 09:38   Link #102
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Anko gets sucked by snakes. I hope she is not dead yet, since Madara already plans a counter measure against Kabuto.

Current Naruto learned Abilities
Kage Bunshin
Summoning Technique
Rasengan 1.0
Fuuton Rasengan
Three Tails Mode
Rasen Shuriken (close range version)
Sage Mode
Frog Kata (taijutsu frog technique)
Rasen Shuriken (long range version)
Kyuubi Mode (human form version)

Current technique to be learned
Jinchuuruki Bomb (now this a homage version of Kamehameha of Dragon Ball, using illusionary hands to form it, the one used against Orochimaru by the 4th tail mode.)
Nine Tails Transformation (yes, probably Killer Bee and his bijuu are envious of Naruto that he can do it in the human Kyuubi Mode.)

How about some new idea, that Naruto learning the permanent Kage Bunshin separating himself from the Bijuu on the process without getting himself killed. Might be a good plot if Kishi attempts this.

Maybe Minato and Killer Bee trained together for a few days, he let Minato see the "Bomb", so he could learn something from it. Just like how the Elder Frog predicts the fate of Jiraya, Minato probably learned something from the oracle of the Elder Frog as well.
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Old 2010-12-03, 10:09   Link #103
james0246
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Originally Posted by Apollian View Post
my problem with that is why would the 9 Tails want to take all of Naruto's
chakra?. wouldn't that mean that the Fox himself would die?..
No. Naruto uses his chakra to counterbalance the Kyuubi's chakra. If all of Naruto's chakra were to be used up, then that would allow the Kyuubi to fully take over (sicne only the fox's chakra would remain).
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Old 2010-12-03, 10:55   Link #104
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Did Naruto actually understand what "ratio" means. So he isn't completely retarded after all.. let's wait and see how he'll do it.
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Old 2010-12-03, 11:22   Link #105
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Meh, so Kishi ruined the fun by coming up with a plot device that wont allow Naruto to turn into beast mode like KB can. Pretty dissapointing, but at least Naruto is going to learn a new move (even if it's just another Rasengan) in this form.

And the cute fox form instantly reminded me of the fox in the one-shot, pretty funny. xP
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Old 2010-12-03, 11:57   Link #106
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what is this one-shot you people are talking about ?
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Old 2010-12-03, 12:08   Link #107
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what is this one-shot you people are talking about ?
The pilot... or chapter 00.
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Old 2010-12-03, 15:03   Link #108
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It's a bit odd that Naruto says that he needs more hands to form a rasengan. When he first did it against Kabuto he didn't have clones. Anyway, maybe Naruto is thinking about rasenshuriken and not a plain rasengan.

I think this chapter strongly hints that Naruto will have to combine sage and kyuubi mode to be able to fight properly. His fighting style is centered around kage bunshins, because all his strategies and tricks are based on that. So i think in order to be able to use kage bunshins in battle he will combine the two powerups.

Both his sage mode and his kyuubi mode have serious flaws, but if he combines them he might remove the limits. The problem with sage mode was that he needs a lot of time to collect nature energy because of the needed balance, however if the balance must be acquired against a 100 times larger Naruto+Kyuubi chakra that means Naruto should be able speed up his nature energy gathering time by 100 times, for example instead of 5 minutes it would take 3 seconds. And if he fights with a small amount of kagebunshins then one kagebunshin can always stay still to gather energy for about 5-10 seconds while the other KBs are fighting. Also Naruto needs sage mode for the rasenshuriken, so i guess he will have to use it regardless of being in kyuubi mode or not. Also during his fights he can switch on and off both modes, depending on what his limits will be according to Kishimoto. For the plot to advance Naruto cannot be overpowered, otherwise a Sasuke vs Naruto fight would be boring. So Kishi will invent some new limits which will make Naruto only as strong as EMS-Sasuke, but of course after their fight Kishi can slowly take away even those limits.

At least now it is clear that because kyuubi is not cooperating that means Sasuke's genjutsu must be beaten by Itachi's secret gift given to Naruto. So now it seems safe to assume that whenever Sasuke will use genjutsu on Naruto then Itachi's secret jutsu sealed in Naruto will immedately activate.

The kyuubi rasenshuriken will be insanely strong. If it's nearly as strong as a real demon chakra ball then adding to that ball an elemental manipulation will make such a huge difference as it is between normal rasengan and normal rasenshuriken. This demonic rasenshuriken will destroy mountains.


Quote:
Originally Posted by christinemarie View Post
Maybe Minato and Killer Bee trained together for a few days, he let Minato see the "Bomb", so he could learn something from it.
I think they fought against each other in the 3rd ninja war. We have seen how Minato can deal with the kyuubi (blocking it with a boss summon, teleporting away it's chakra ball, teleporting the demon itself). If i were in Minato's place i would have teleported back his chakra ball into itself, we have seen Gamabunta being hit by Shukaku's chakra ball, so i guess if the 8-tails is hit by his own chakra balls it would hurt very bad. And when Bee turns back into human form Minato can beat him in many different ways. I guess Bee was lucky to survive against Minato, that's why he trembled when hearing Minato's name.

Last edited by Ero-Senn1n; 2010-12-03 at 15:17.
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Old 2010-12-03, 15:08   Link #109
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maybe he can still use Kyuubi chakra to disrupt genjutsu

also, he couldn't fuse with Ma & Pa frogs initially, because Kyuubi wouldn't let them, but now that maybe a non-issue
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Old 2010-12-03, 15:27   Link #110
Ero-Senn1n
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Originally Posted by Kallen4life View Post
maybe he can still use Kyuubi chakra to disrupt genjutsu

also, he couldn't fuse with Ma & Pa frogs initially, because Kyuubi wouldn't let them, but now that maybe a non-issue
It's all plot driven, what many of us have predicted many chapters ago now turns into reality, simply because the plot is better that way.

For example can you imagine Naruto and Nagato or Naruto and Sasuke having such emotional conversations while Ma and Pa frog are standing on Naruto's shoulders? I think that would be impossible, so i'm quite sure they will never be able to fuse with Naruto.

Do you want Naruto to go in demon mode and fight like an huge summon animal shooting chakra balls and running around? I'm sure Kishi wants Naruto to fight in human form, to have real ninja fights with strategies, ninja tricks, a larger amount of jutsu and deep emotions. The way Naruto did against Pain.

Do you want the kyuubi to disrupt the genjutsu or you want to see Itachi's secret move in action? I think the answer is obvious.

Naruto as the main character will not be Bee's copy in any way, that would be painfully boring.
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Old 2010-12-03, 15:53   Link #111
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just listing possibilities

and i don't want Itachi's crowjob to disrupt genjutsu, I want it to do something much cooler


I'd also be fine if Naruto never went sage mode again .. just Kuyubi would be fine for me
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Old 2010-12-03, 16:27   Link #112
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Originally Posted by Fukitsu Naruto View Post
-Why work on 20 half-assed jutsu when you can hone your basic 5 and still kick ass with them? Don't you remeber what was said by, I cannot believe I'm actually going to type this, Sasuke way back in Part I? He stated that "an expert with a rock can kill an amateur with a kunai". So while Naruto's opponent's have maybe 20 techniques which they have yet to master, Naruto will be taking down mountains with 3-4 techniques that he not only mastered, but perfected to the point where they surpassed their original design.
How about to have moves that are able to do what he currently can not?
-For instance how about a quick defence for when he can't dodge?
-Or how about a technique That Naruto can use to trap and or restrain an enemy? it would make it a whole lot easier to strike an enemy with his Rasenshuriken
-How about a very quick long range attack like Jiraiya's hair needles? RasenShuriken might be a one hit kill but Naruto has limited uses of it; a good long range technique that Naruto can use often can ser ve to weaken the enemy.
-Actually Thinking along those lines maybe we could have more less powerful moves that are more damaging than punching in general... it may not be a one hit kill but it would be great if Naruto could weaken his enemies and at a much lower charka cost
-How about some kind of simple wind blade, something he can use often but also deal great damage... slicing off an enemy's arm would do wonder's in a fight

Really when it comes down to it there is a lot Naruto can't do or can not do as effectively with his current abilities; Sure he could restrain someone with shadow clones, but his clones are often beaten with a single punch; not to mention that shadows clones are often considered to have a considerable chakra cost to them... hell first with sage mode and now with kyuubi mode Naruto is finding that his hallmark move of using shadow clones is quickly becoming much more limited... it would have served him well to have learned more variety when he had a chance

Quote:
Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
The same reason Kakashi limits himeslf to a dozen even though he knows a 1000...
And what reason would that be?

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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
I don't really see it as being "half-assed". It is a complete technique, same power and ability as the original, just with an added step. True, it is technically not as efficient as the original, but the creation of the extra step lead directly to the Oodama Rasengan, Futon: Rasengan and the Futon: RasenShuriken, all techniques impossible without the use of the extra step Naruto created years previous and all techniques infinitely more powerful than the original.
Jiriaya has proven that the gigantic rasenagan can be down without the use of that extra step. And the fact that Naruto does know how to do a one handed rasengan despite it being possible is enough to suggest that it might be possible to do the Rasenshuriken with only one hand; at the very least it should be possible to cut it down to just one shadow clone... ... So ya i would say that needing to take an extra step is kinda like doing it halfassed... hell the whole reason he has to go through his current training is BECAUSE he never learned to do a one handed rasengan.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulquiorra View Post
Bruce Lee said, "I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 different kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times."
maybe, but i think I might have more fear of someone who practiced 10 kicks 1,000 times...
Afterall if your opponent only knows one kick; even he fully mastered that kick, all you need to do is know how to counter that kick... on the otherhand, figuring out how to counter 10 different kicks and not knowing what kick will come is much more difficult

Hell take deidara for example... people kept pointing out that the reason he loss is because the enemy knew his weakness. Why did deidara loose as they see it? because all of his moves shared one weakness that the enemy could exploit. By their logic deidara would would have stood a better chance if he knew more than just earth style bomb techniques
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Old 2010-12-03, 16:43   Link #113
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^Jiraiya used Senjutsu in the creation of Chou Oodama Rasengan (and his Senjustu comes from the help of 2 others constantly regulating his chakra). So, it is not the same as Oodama Rasengan (which seemingly is simply Naruto adding more power and stability to an already stable attack).

Naruto's version is not "half-assed". He was provided minimal tools, and little to no instruction, and managed to come up with the same technique simply requiring an extra step. There is nothing half-assed about that at all.

For clarification, half-assed would be putting an oil-based paint on your shed outside without a primer. Half-assed is incompetence derived from an almost willing desire to not think things through. If anyone could be called half-assed in regards to the Rasengan, it would be Jiraiya for not properly instructing Naruto on how to form the technique. Naruto was given a task and he accomplished it. Was it less efficient than the genius who spent 3 years developing the task to begin with? Yes. But considering he spent 5 weeks, with little to no instruction, accomplishing the task, then there is nothing half-assed about what he did.
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Old 2010-12-03, 18:04   Link #114
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First of all, why has nobody mentioned the fact that 8tails mentioned naruto not being able to tame the kyuubi YET and saying that 8tails used to be just like naruto, stealing eachothers chakra and stuff.. So naruto can still learn to completely control the kyuubi.
eventhough I believe he will only use that to get extra chakra, not to transform into the kyuubi since that would be lame. He is more mobile and agile while being in his current form.
And naruto definetly needs a non rasengan based attack like a wind style jutsu...
Naruto has turned into a dragon ball z character.. Naruto was special because of the VARIETY in techniques..
+ Tailed Beast Bomb was always used as a blast and not as a close combat attack? I doubt naruto will use it like that, but its a possiblity xD sending blasts out of his hands and by that removing all forms of tactics in his fighting style and turning into a full goku who only uses KAMEHAMEHA!!
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Old 2010-12-03, 18:08   Link #115
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Bee and the Hachibi are "friends". Naruto and the Kyuubi aren't "friends"...
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Old 2010-12-03, 18:42   Link #116
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And what reason would that be?
the reason being that he is using the best dozen that can get the job done. someone facing down an enemy that knows 1000 different techs wont be concerned about maybe getting hit 1000 times... its the fact that out of those 1000 there is at least one that will definitely hit is what will scare him the most.

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Originally Posted by Slayerx View Post
Jiriaya has proven that the gigantic rasenagan can be down without the use of that extra step. And the fact that Naruto does know how to do a one handed rasengan despite it being possible is enough to suggest that it might be possible to do the Rasenshuriken with only one hand; at the very least it should be possible to cut it down to just one shadow clone... ... So ya i would say that needing to take an extra step is kinda like doing it halfassed... hell the whole reason he has to go through his current training is BECAUSE he never learned to do a one handed rasengan.
for starters ur underestimating how difficult it is to even be able to perform the basic rasengan. only 4 others managed it and 3 of em (despite being genius) failed to take it to the next lvl. frankly its because of his vast experience with shadow clones that naruto is capable of performing rasenshuriken. if he had learnt to use one hand right from the start he may never have gotten this far. being able to do that with even 2 clones is a far better tradeoff than being stuck at using basic one single-handed. i'd say it isnt "optimal" to use a clone for regular rasengan; tech works fine with clones so there's nothing half-assed about it.

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maybe, but i think I might have more fear of someone who practiced 10 kicks 1,000 times...
quality > quantity... always. shikamaru only knows shadow manipulation but he still beat hidan. look at how sasuke used chidori in his fights (combined w/ sword, diffused the bombs in his body, etc). in a fight, someone with 2 swords isnt necessarily superior than someone with one (or even none for that matter). it all comes down to how u use the skills u have.
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Old 2010-12-03, 22:47   Link #117
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Naruto's version is not "half-assed". He was provided minimal tools, and little to no instruction, and managed to come up with the same technique simply requiring an extra step. There is nothing half-assed about that at all.
What do you mean minimal tools and instruction? He was taught by one of the most powerful and experienced ninjas in his country. I don't know what more you could ask for.

What Naruto's doing now is more or less equivalent to riding a bike with training wheels.

Quote:
For clarification, half-assed would be putting an oil-based paint on your shed outside without a primer. Half-assed is incompetence derived from an almost willing desire to not think things through. If anyone could be called half-assed in regards to the Rasengan, it would be Jiraiya for not properly instructing Naruto on how to form the technique. Naruto was given a task and he accomplished it. Was it less efficient than the genius who spent 3 years developing the task to begin with? Yes. But considering he spent 5 weeks, with little to no instruction, accomplishing the task, then there is nothing half-assed about what he did.
I'll be the first that it was idiotic that Jiraiya never taught Naruto how to do a one-handed Rasengan (or anything else for that matter) over the 3 year time period. As for the five week period? Eh, I don't know. I think Jiraiya wanted Naruto to figure it out on his own and let him get a good feel for it. Plus, he was busy tracking down Tsunade.

At any rate, the reason that Naruto's method is half-assed is because it's inefficient. What if Naruto doesn't have enough chakra to create a clone and a Rasengan, or what if the enemy takes out the clone as it's forming the Rasengan? It just makes Naruto more vulnerable and takes up unnecessary chakra.
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Old 2010-12-03, 23:28   Link #118
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Originally Posted by herculan View Post
First of all, why has nobody mentioned the fact that 8tails mentioned naruto not being able to tame the kyuubi YET and saying that 8tails used to be just like naruto, stealing eachothers chakra and stuff.. So naruto can still learn to completely control the kyuubi.
-Ahem...

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Originally Posted by Fukitsu Naruto View Post
-After re-reading the chapter I came upon one interesting bit of info. The Hachibi himself stated that even he and Bee went through the whole "Chakra Trade" phase that Naruto is going through now. But the way the Hachibi said it, it seems to indicate that when Bee separated Hachibi's chakra from its will, the Hachibi wasn't tamed immediately. It took time for them to develop this sort of "friendship". If that is the case, then there may be hope for Naruto to yet attain the beast's form (if only to add more power to his attacks). Though there doesn't seem to be a need for this yet. Needless to say though, I'm happy with this .
-You're welcome.

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Originally Posted by Nobodyman9 View Post
At any rate, the reason that Naruto's method is half-assed is because it's inefficient. What if Naruto doesn't have enough chakra to create a clone and a Rasengan, or what if the enemy takes out the clone as it's forming the Rasengan? It just makes Naruto more vulnerable and takes up unnecessary chakra.
-You do realise that you overlooked something there my good sir? If the enemy is wasting an attack on just ONE Naruto Kage Bunshin, then that works into Naruto's favour. Thy had just wasted and revealed one of their moves on a CLONE. So his clone was busted, whoop-dee-doo-dah on a tricycle. In all of the battles you've seen him fight, has he ever lost so much chakra that he didn't have enough to perform a KB and still attack with the Rasengan? Hell, even against Pain, arguably his most difficult battle to date left him with little more than a scratch.

-But let's break down this nonsense that Naruto's method of doing the Rasengan is ineffective. Its actually quite the opposite.

--Ok, so the normal Rasengan forces the user to focus on forming it. Normally that requires them to stand still, just waiting to get counter-attacked. Naruto's method not only divides the tasks needed to form said jutsu but also leaves him with KB for protection in case the enemy feels like rushing in.

--The time it takes to form. Now, Yondaime was quick to form it but that's the original creator. He also used Hiraishin so he was able to form the thing while teleporting around. Naruto however, we know he can not only form the Rasengan fast, but he can do it in LESS THAN 5 seconds. How do we know this? Because of his battle against Pain. The latter performed Shinra Tensei, which left him with a 5 second opening. Naruto formed the Rasengan, stated his line and launched himself to attack Pain with it, all in the span of 5 seconds. Trust me, unless the enemy has the speed of light at their side, chances are they can be caught by the Rasengan.

-Naruto's method may cost more chakra, but his has a better standing than Jiraiya's who now that I think about it, never used it in battle. Yeah he used one in Sage Mode but that's not the normal Rasengan.
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Old 2010-12-03, 23:59   Link #119
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Originally Posted by Fukitsu Naruto View Post
--You do realise that you overlooked something there my good sir? If the enemy is wasting an attack on just ONE Naruto Kage Bunshin, then that works into Naruto's favour. Thy had just wasted and revealed one of their moves on a CLONE. So his clone was busted, whoop-dee-doo-dah on a tricycle. In all of the battles you've seen him fight, has he ever lost so much chakra that he didn't have enough to perform a KB and still attack with the Rasengan? Hell, even against Pain, arguably his most difficult battle to date left him with little more than a scratch.
Your argument has quite a few holes in it. What if the attack the enemy uses to destroy the clone isn't new? As for the rest of your argument, what you're saying is that there's no chance Naruto will ever lose enough chakra to perform a rasengan? Well, then what's the point of chakra limitations at all if he can just have however much is convenient for the plot? That's just bad writing. There's no sense of urgency or limitation. Although I'd like to mention that Naruto had ten poles staked into him during the Pain fight.

Quote:
-But let's break down this nonsense that Naruto's method of doing the Rasengan is ineffective. Its actually quite the opposite.
I didn't say it was ineffective, I said it was inefficient. There's a difference.

Quote:
--Ok, so the normal Rasengan forces the user to focus on forming it. Normally that requires them to stand still, just waiting to get counter-attacked. Naruto's method not only divides the tasks needed to form said jutsu but also leaves him with KB for protection in case the enemy feels like rushing in.
Do the normal users really need to stand still? I seem to recall Jiraiya and Minato forming it fairly easily, but I could be wrong. And how is the KB supposed to protect Naruto if all its attention is focused on forming the Rasengan?

Quote:
--The time it takes to form. Now, Yondaime was quick to form it but that's the original creator. He also used Hiraishin so he was able to form the thing while teleporting around. Naruto however, we know he can not only form the Rasengan fast, but he can do it in LESS THAN 5 seconds. How do we know this? Because of his battle against Pain. The latter performed Shinra Tensei, which left him with a 5 second opening. Naruto formed the Rasengan, stated his line and launched himself to attack Pain with it, all in the span of 5 seconds. Trust me, unless the enemy has the speed of light at their side, chances are they can be caught by the Rasengan.
Do you know how long it took Yondaime to form the Rasengan? I certainly don't. And hey, in this world of super-powered freaks with practically limitless capabilities it's entirely possible that one of them could stop him with superhuman speed, or some other method.

Quote:
-Naruto's method may cost more chakra, but his has a better standing than Jiraiya's who now that I think about it, never used it in battle. Yeah he used one in Sage Mode but that's not the normal Rasengan.
Not really. It still takes up more chakra and makes Naruto a bigger target during those supposed 5 seconds.
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Old 2010-12-04, 00:04   Link #120
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Originally Posted by Nobodyman9 View Post
What do you mean minimal tools and instruction? He was taught by one of the most powerful and experienced ninjas in his country. I don't know what more you could ask for.
Jiraiya gave him three incomplete lessons that lasted all of 5 minutes each (of which only one actually amounted to any actual explanation). In the end, he showed Naruto what the technique looked like, then let Naruto replicate the technique however he saw fit. Consequently, whatever Naruto came up with was purely his own, based on his own creativity, and had little to do with Jiraiya's "teachings".

(Honestly, I love Jiraiya, but old Toad Fucksucky (or whatever), is the best teacher Naruto has ever been shown to have.)

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Originally Posted by Nobodyman9 View Post
What Naruto's doing now is more or less equivalent to riding a bike with training wheels.
I agree. I've never claimed it wasn't inefficient. Rather, I'd call what Naruto is doing a "Bad Habit" that seriously needs to be broken. But, to call one of Naruto's shining moments "half-assed" is simply false.

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At any rate, the reason that Naruto's method is half-assed is because it's inefficient.
"Inefficient" does not equal "half-assed".
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