[Manga] Chapter 519 Discussion

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by Fukitsu Naruto

--You do realise that you overlooked something there my good sir? If the enemy is wasting an attack on just ONE Naruto Kage Bunshin, then that works into Naruto's favour. Thy had just wasted and revealed one of their moves on a CLONE. So his clone was busted, whoop-dee-doo-dah on a tricycle. In all of the battles you've seen him fight, has he ever lost so much chakra that he didn't have enough to perform a KB and still attack with the Rasengan? Hell, even against Pain, arguably his most difficult battle to date left him with little more than a scratch.

Your argument has quite a few holes in it. What if the attack the enemy uses to destroy the clone isn't new? As for the rest of your argument, what you're saying is that there's no chance Naruto will ever lose enough chakra to perform a rasengan? Well, then what's the point of chakra limitations at all if he can just have however much is convenient for the plot? That's just bad writing. There's no sense of urgency or limitation. Although I'd like to mention that Naruto had ten poles staked into him during the Pain fight.

-But let's break down this nonsense that Naruto's method of doing the Rasengan is ineffective. Its actually quite the opposite.

I didn't say it was ineffective, I said it was inefficient. There's a difference.

--Ok, so the normal Rasengan forces the user to focus on forming it. Normally that requires them to stand still, just waiting to get counter-attacked. Naruto's method not only divides the tasks needed to form said jutsu but also leaves him with KB for protection in case the enemy feels like rushing in.

Do the normal users really need to stand still? I seem to recall Jiraiya and Minato forming it fairly easily, but I could be wrong. And how is the KB supposed to protect Naruto if all its attention is focused on forming the Rasengan?

--The time it takes to form. Now, Yondaime was quick to form it but that's the original creator. He also used Hiraishin so he was able to form the thing while teleporting around. Naruto however, we know he can not only form the Rasengan fast, but he can do it in LESS THAN 5 seconds. How do we know this? Because of his battle against Pain. The latter performed Shinra Tensei, which left him with a 5 second opening. Naruto formed the Rasengan, stated his line and launched himself to attack Pain with it, all in the span of 5 seconds. Trust me, unless the enemy has the speed of light at their side, chances are they can be caught by the Rasengan.

Do you know how long it took Yondaime to form the Rasengan? I certainly don't. And hey, in this world of super-powered freaks with practically limitless capabilities it's entirely possible that one of them could stop him with superhuman speed, or some other method.

-Naruto's method may cost more chakra, but his has a better standing than Jiraiya's who now that I think about it, never used it in battle. Yeah he used one in Sage Mode but that's not the normal Rasengan.

Not really. It still takes up more chakra and makes Naruto a bigger target during those supposed 5 seconds.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

What do you mean minimal tools and instruction? He was taught by one of the most powerful and experienced ninjas in his country. I don't know what more you could ask for.

Jiraiya gave him three incomplete lessons that lasted all of 5 minutes each (of which only one actually amounted to any actual explanation). In the end, he showed Naruto what the technique looked like, then let Naruto replicate the technique however he saw fit. Consequently, whatever Naruto came up with was purely his own, based on his own creativity, and had little to do with Jiraiya's "teachings".

(Honestly, I love Jiraiya, but old Toad Fucksucky (or whatever), is the best teacher Naruto has ever been shown to have.)

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

What Naruto's doing now is more or less equivalent to riding a bike with training wheels.

I agree. I've never claimed it wasn't inefficient. Rather, I'd call what Naruto is doing a "Bad Habit" that seriously needs to be broken. But, to call one of Naruto's shining moments "half-assed" is simply false.

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

At any rate, the reason that Naruto's method is half-assed is because it's inefficient.

"Inefficient" does not equal "half-assed".

[Ulquiorra]

This chapter might give us a better idea of what Kishimoto has planned for his usual end of the year spectacular. He almost always has a big fight going on and a major cliffhanger to be settled after the three week break.

2009 - It was the Sasuke vs Danzou fight. The cliffhanger before the new year was Itachi's ghost showing up(well not really) during the fight.

2008 - Pain destroys Konoha. Still Kishi's best work until he ruined it. The cliffhanger was Naruto arriving.

2007 - Sasuke vs Itachi. The cliffhanger was Sasuke stabbing Itachi.

2006 - Team 10 vs. the Zombie Twins. The cliffhanger was Shikamaru vs Hidan.

So I expect the first division of the main Alliance army to start their fight in chapter 522 and Naruto to have completed his training to setup the looong tease for Naruto vs Sasuke. And hopefully we have out first major character death in the war. Please be Kirabi.

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by james0246

Jiraiya gave him three incomplete lessons that lasted all of 5 minutes each (of which only one actually amounted to any actual explanation). In the end, he showed Naruto what the technique looked like, then let Naruto replicate the technique however he saw fit. Consequently, whatever Naruto came up with was purely his own, based on his own creativity, and had little to do with Jiraiya's "teachings".

It's called learning by doing. Chakra manipulation, from my POV, is a very internal experience that's very hard to explain in words. Jiraiya can tell Naruto to control and manipulate his chakra in such a way that it does this or that, but he can't really give him a play-by-play. And at the end of the day it really was more about Naruto relying on his own capabilities and creativity to accomplish the task.

At any rate, Naruto had plenty of time to "break the habit" during the three year training.

I agree. I've never claimed it wasn't inefficient. Rather, I'd call what Naruto is doing a "Bad Habit" that seriously needs to be broken. But, to call one of Naruto's shining moments "half-assed" is simply false.

Then I got no beef with you there.

"Inefficient" does not equal "half-assed".

Eh, I think in some cases it can, but I won't press the issue further.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

At any rate, Naruto had plenty of time to "break the habit" during the three year training.

Not unless he didn't know it was a bad habit (lets face it, Naruto isn't exactly the brightest bulb, so I could see him never really conceiving of his method being inefficient).

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

Eh, I think in some cases it can, but I won't press the issue further.

Fair enough.

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by james0246

Not unless he didn't know it was a bad habit (lets face it, Naruto isn't exactly the brightest bulb, so I could see him never really conceiving of his method being inefficient).

No, but Jiraiya could.

[Luminion Lancer]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

Your argument has quite a few holes in it. What if the attack the enemy uses to destroy the clone isn't new? As for the rest of your argument, what you're saying is that there's no chance Naruto will ever lose enough chakra to perform a rasengan? Well, then what's the point of chakra limitations at all if he can just have however much is convenient for the plot? That's just bad writing. There's no sense of urgency or limitation. Although I'd like to mention that Naruto had ten poles staked into him during the Pain fight.

-So what if the attack isn't anything new. They still showed what they can do and they wasted it taking care of a clone, which Naruto can make many of. As for the rest, that's why he's been made a jinchuuriki with near limitless chakra at his disposal and why he mastered Sage Mode. And if want to form a riot against Chakra Inconsistency, then I'll refer to you to Sasuke's escape from his battle with Deidara. If there's any battle worth complaining about with that issue, its Sasuke vs. Deidara.

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

I didn't say it was ineffective, I said it was inefficient. There's a difference.

-Ah, my misunderstanding then. Though, inefficient sounds more like poor management of resources. But if its about Naruto managing his clones, I don't think there's much to complain about. He ain't spamming them like he did in Part 1, back when his use of the technique was largely inefficient.

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

Do the normal users really need to stand still? I seem to recall Jiraiya and Minato forming it fairly easily, but I could be wrong. And how is the KB supposed to protect Naruto if all its attention is focused on forming the Rasengan?

-Most of them stand still to form the attack in their hand, if only for the briefest of moments before charging in. As for the KB protection, its more about mind games than anything. We've seen Naruto be crafty and mix himself amongst his clones, sometimes performing their duties (like helping form the Rasengan) instead. As soon as he creates some, it becomes a guessing game for the enemy. They cannot be certain that the body they're hitting is the real one. That alone is enough protection to save his life.

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

Do you know how long it took Yondaime to form the Rasengan? I certainly don't. And hey, in this world of super-powered freaks with practically limitless capabilities it's entirely possible that one of them could stop him with superhuman speed, or some other method.

-It appears that it doesn't take very long to form, if we go by Naruto as an example. But keep in mind, the only characters that create it quickly, are Yondaime and Jiraiya. One is a genius that is born one every 100 years (or whatever they called him) and the other is one of the Sannin. Both of whom are much older than Naruto and have far more field-battle experience than him. As for the speed issue, the only one to pose a threat seem to be Madara as Yondaime is dead. But we'll need more info on this. Thus far, the Rasengan has a good track record of hitting its targets.

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

Not really. It still takes up more chakra and makes Naruto a bigger target during those supposed 5 seconds.

-More resources spent = more options in battle. And when it comes fown to life or death, I doubt saving that one sliver of chakra for later will matter. Personally, if it'll save my life, I will use my ultra-special-nitro bomb I was saving for the big baddie when there is no other option.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

No, but Jiraiya could.

Which just goes to show how bad a teacher Jiraiya was .

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by Fukitsu Naruto

-So what if the attack isn't anything new. They still showed what they can do and they wasted it taking care of a clone, which Naruto can make many of.

You have no idea what you're talking about, do you?

Yeah, it shows they can take out a clone. Good for them.

As for the rest, that's why he's been made a jinchuuriki with near limitless chakra at his disposal and why he mastered Sage Mode. And if want to form a riot against Chakra Inconsistency, then I'll refer to you to Sasuke's escape from his battle with Deidara. If there's any battle worth complaining about with that issue, its Sasuke vs. Deidara.

I suppose you miss the raged debate I had a few threads ago, which made me quite a few enemies. But yes, I despise the Sasuke vs. Deidara fight. Chakra limitation and consistency, overall, has been very WTF for most of part II.

-Ah, my misunderstanding then. Though, inefficient sounds more like poor management of resources. But if its about Naruto managing his clones, I don't think there's much to complain about. He ain't spamming them like he did in Part 1, back when his use of the technique was largely inefficient.

Exactly. It's poor management of resources, which is a fault. Naruto doesn't/shouldn't need to use his clones for that.

-Most of them stand still to form the attack in their hand, if only for the briefest of moments before charging in.

As in 5 seconds or less? Cause if so, then Naruto has no advantage over single-handed users.

As for the KB protection, its more about mind games than anything. We've seen Naruto be crafty and mix himself amongst his clones, sometimes performing their duties (like helping form the Rasengan) instead. As soon as he creates some, it becomes a guessing game for the enemy. They cannot be certain that the body they're hitting is the real one. That alone is enough protection to save his life.

Yeah, well, maybe it could be the one that's forming an energy ball in his hand, and the clones are the ones attacking the enemy and trying to distract. At any rate, this could be true for any situation, not just forming the Rasengan.

-It appears that it doesn't take very long to form, if we go by Naruto as an example. But keep in mind, the only characters that create it quickly, are Yondaime and Jiraiya.

They're also the only ones who use it at all (well, them and Kakashi and Konohamaru).

One is a genius that is born one every 100 years (or whatever they called him) and the other is one of the Sannin. Both of whom are much older than Naruto and have far more field-battle experience than him. As for the speed issue, the only one to pose a threat seem to be Madara as Yondaime is dead. But we'll need more info on this. Thus far, the Rasengan has a good track record of hitting its targets.

I can't help but think we're straying from the issue here, so I'm gonna drop this.

-More resources spent = more options in battle.

Kinda like how it would be really helpful if Naruto knew a large variety of jutsus. Oops.

And when it comes fown to life or death, I doubt saving that one sliver of chakra for later will matter.

Every little bit helps, especially in a life or death situation. A single grain of rice can tip the scale.

Personally, if it'll save my life, I will use my ultra-special-nitro bomb I was saving for the big baddie when there is no other option.

Is this part of your argument, or are you just making a personal observation?

Originally Posted by james0246

Which just goes to show how bad a teacher Jiraiya was .

Or how bad a writer Kishi is.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

Or how bad a writer Kishi is.

In this instance, I tend to agree. The best teachers in the series (either shown through actual moments where a student is learning something, or just by results) are Gai and Tsunade (they did turn their zeroes into heroes...okay Lee was never a hero, but he was once beyond zero, so will forgive him a little). All the other teachers, though, never seem to actually do any teaching (Kakashi did give Sasuke the Chidori and Lightning training, so I'll give him credit for that...otherwise not much else). They form complex emotional bonds with their students, but we never really see any actual evidence that the students have learned anything specific from them besides some basics (tree climbing).

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by james0246

okay Lee was never a hero

You take that back right now.

[Frenchie]

Jesus christ that chibi Kyuubi was friggin' adorable.

[Poetic Justice]

That floating rasengans seem like a big possibility now, Floating lightsabers come to mind though.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Poetic Justice

That floating rasengans seem like a big possibility now, Floating lightsabers come to mind though.

You mean Naruto could make a guided rasenshuriken?

[Frenchie]

I think he's talking about the color page featuring the Genin teams in Tactical vests and Naruto in Kyuubi mode with Rasengans floating behind him.

[qwertyuiopz]

too bad
i wanted to see 9tails and 8tails beside each other

[Luminion Lancer]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

Kinda like how it would be really helpful if Naruto knew a large variety of jutsus. Oops.

-Since we cannot seem to come to an agreement between most points and we're at the point of repeating ourselves, I'll just reply to this last one and call it a day. Anyways, I didn't intend to refer to jutsu as "resources", but rather that role belongs to Naruto's chakra. Think of it as currency/materials in an RTS game, where every jutsu he does is a building/dome with a different function and they each have a certain cost (chakra). Now in MOST (keyword here) cases a ninja would needs a rather impressive arsenal of different justu to make up for whatever fault he has against another. But Naruto isn't most cases now is he? He's been bred from birth to be a powerhouse. Son of what is arguably a great lineage, his father left behind a plan to ensure he's made strong, his mother's chakra seems to be his inheritance as well, has what is arguably the strongest beast ever created (leaving Jubi out) and was trained by some of the strongest people/creatures on earth.

-So to conclude to the point and breaking the wall-o-text there, what most ninja need 10 jutsu in order to complete their objective, Naruto basically just needs 1 and that one jutsu he does is going to be a doozy. Its not about how many jutsu you happen to know off hand, but how you use them. And Naruto seems to use his staples very well.

[DeDe]

I like the fan idea that Minato was creating the rasengan for Kushina to use since she couldn't use the biju ball. It would be another cute element to their relationship. And he did owe her for the sealing jutsu she probably taught him.

As for the other discussion, all the rookies pretty much use one jutsu and various forms of that jutsu. So why did we expect Naruto to have countless amounts of jutsu? Most of it would be a waste.

[herculan]

Originally Posted by DeDe

As for the other discussion, all the rookies pretty much use one jutsu and various forms of that jutsu. So why did we expect Naruto to have countless amounts of jutsu? Most of it would be a waste.

Maybe because naruto is the main character?

Sasuke has 10 times more ninjutsu and his taijutsu looks cooler...
sasuke can use 2 different elements, naruto uses 0 elemental techniques.. (rasengshuuriken is just a throwing rasengan...)
Sasuke has cool powers from his sharingan: seeing the opponent's movements before they do themselfs, copying techniques..
Sasuke can use genjutsu
Sasuke used different summonings... Hawks AND snakes..
Sasuke's taijutsu varies because he sometimes uses a sword and sometimes doesn't...
sasuke has 3 awesome totally different looking techniques from his mangekyo sharingan + he gets 1 more for Eternal mangekyo sharingan....
Naruto only does: Rasengan, clone, Chou Oodama Rasengan, Clone, Wind-rasengan, Clone, Clone, Clone, Bijuu Rasengan....'

I loved it when jiraiya said: '' there is only one thing that matters if you are a shinobi, and it isn't the number of jutsu you possess. All you do need, is the guts to never give up.''
And its true that naruto uses the same techniques in different ways everytime.. Its very inovative..
But in my opinion kishi has still taken this just one step too far.

[Shiryuu]

Naruto knows frog taijutsu.