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Old 2011-04-18, 11:27   Link #421
Claies
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How is Koyuki stupid? To start, idiots don't make it to student council president. As far as I know, in Asia it doesn't quite work that way - academic competence forms a large component in popularity there.

It's quite possible, if you're Miss Popular, to live wholly unaware of the bottom feeders and what they suffer through. She's naive that way. You can tell from the way she cries at Hijiri's story that she's not exactly well-experienced when it comes to hearing of others' profound suffering, and compared to other characters, she met Toru very recently.
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Old 2011-04-18, 12:00   Link #422
Magin
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I think when they're saying too dumb or whatnot when it comes to Koyuki, they really mean innocent

After all, so far her Iris and background actually stand out against all the bleaker backgrounds of all other characters, since she hasn't gone through any psychological torment that the rest have. Is Koyuki dumb? No, but up until now, she was relatively innocent when it came to Irises
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Old 2011-04-18, 12:20   Link #423
Anh_Minh
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She's been pretty innocent, period. It's like she can barely conceive of anyone being malicious, for any reason.
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Old 2011-04-18, 13:36   Link #424
Shadow5YA
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Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
Id disagree with you. By weak charcter I mean having your own opinion rather than always adjusting others and usually does stand out out of the mass quite a bit because of the individuality. Koyouki is far from that.
I disagree. Koyuki had her own standpoint on Asahi's issue with slapping the teacher and pressed it.

Whether you like her character archetype or not, Koyuki has more than cosmetic value in this series.
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Old 2011-04-18, 14:33   Link #425
Anh_Minh
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Sure. She's the one who cares. Without her, nothing happens. Toru's too apathetic.
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Old 2011-04-18, 15:55   Link #426
Darknemo2000
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I already said - for me extreme naivety = stupidity because it causes you to take stupid decisions and causes you to make unrealistic conclusions that are so far from the reality that start to look retarded.
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Old 2011-04-19, 06:20   Link #427
JokerD
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Originally Posted by Claies View Post
How is Koyuki stupid? To start, idiots don't make it to student council president. As far as I know, in Asia it doesn't quite work that way - academic competence forms a large component in popularity there.

It's quite possible, if you're Miss Popular, to live wholly unaware of the bottom feeders and what they suffer through. She's naive that way. You can tell from the way she cries at Hijiri's story that she's not exactly well-experienced when it comes to hearing of others' profound suffering, and compared to other characters, she met Toru very recently.
To tell the truth, all they had to do for the election was to get her to find a 'suitable' candidate and approve it (as told in ch 1) Being stupid or anything was beside the point.

Having said that, she is extremely naive. Then again, so is Toru. I hope they never come up against a person who does bad thing 'just because'
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Old 2011-04-19, 06:50   Link #428
Nemuru
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Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
I already said - for me extreme naivety = stupidity because it causes you to take stupid decisions and causes you to make unrealistic conclusions that are so far from the reality that start to look retarded.
As long as you don't go and try and fault her for being naive ^^, it is characters like these that requires development and experience which she is gaining in due time and there's room for growth atm.
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Old 2011-04-19, 10:43   Link #429
Darknemo2000
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As long as you don't go and try and fault her for being naive ^^, it is characters like these that requires development and experience which she is gaining in due time and there's room for growth atm.
Too bad that in manga those naive simpletons do not usually develop into more as being naive is considered one of their main character trait.
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Old 2011-04-19, 12:51   Link #430
Johnny
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I was thinking that her character's naive or innocent nature reminds me of Haruka from Nogizaka Haruka no Himitsu...
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Old 2011-04-19, 13:36   Link #431
Anh_Minh
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Haruka at least knows people are bastards to otakus. She knows just how far they'll go with their bullying. It's all news to Koyuki.
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Old 2011-04-19, 13:44   Link #432
Johnny
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That's because she was bullied personally. I was talking in a broad sense. They have that same 'air' about them. Also anyone her age that doesn't know what a threesome is, is freaking innocent...
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Old 2011-04-20, 23:06   Link #433
dragonspit4
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erm... let's summarize:

1) Personality of Koyuki? (ANS: Koyuki = naive, innocent. Some ppl consider extreme naivety to be weak (ie. extreme naivety = weak), while some ppl don't.)

2) Will Koyuki ever become not naive? (ANS: most probably not for the rest of the manga since it's her character type)

3) Will a naive and innocent girl become annoying as the main heroine? (ANS: some ppl are "ok" with this, but most readers like to see a stronger character type as a personality of the heroine)

4) Will Koyuki ever "grow" as a character? (ANS: Yes)

5) Will Kuga be better as a partner to Toru than Koyuki?
(ANS: This is a personal answer, but my answer is "Yes". Reason: Kuga is both very intelligent and analytical, which will help Toru solve mysteries faster because she can cover areas that Toru might have missed (ie. 2 detectives are better than one right?) Some ppl mentioned that Koyuki has a good social relationship with the schoolmates, which helped Toru return the lost Iris to the students, therefore Koyuki is the best partner for Toru, but we should also remember that Kuga is the one who talked to each students individually to "steal" their Iris away first, therefore Kuga could have done the same thing if she is in Koyuki's position. In conclusion, I really don't like a naive and innocent heroine as the love interest of the main guy. Smart/intelligent heroine makes the story more interesting all the time. Kuga in this case fits the perfect bill, plus she is cuter than Koyuki. XD)

6) When is the best time Kuga and Toru get together? (ANS: After Toru save Kuga from her death)

7) Is Toru and his friends (ie. Toru & Friends Detective Agency) over powered as a mystery solving group?
(ANS: Yes, they are! With Toru's analyzing ability that put himself in other ppl's shoes, plus Kuga (mind reading), koyuki (solution finder), and Yuki (lie detector), they are an unstoppable group that can pretty much solve any mystery......
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Old 2011-04-21, 01:59   Link #434
kuroishinigami
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Originally Posted by dragonspit4 View Post
erm... let's summarize:


5) Will Kuga be better as a partner to Toru than Koyuki?
(ANS: This is a personal answer, but my answer is "Yes". Reason: Kuga is both very intelligent and analytical, which will help Toru solve mysteries faster because she can cover areas that Toru might have missed (ie. 2 detectives are better than one right?) Some ppl mentioned that Koyuki has a good social relationship with the schoolmates, which helped Toru return the lost Iris to the students, therefore Koyuki is the best partner for Toru, but we should also remember that Kuga is the one who talked to each students individually to "steal" their Iris away first, therefore Kuga could have done the same thing if she is in Koyuki's position. In conclusion, I really don't like a naive and innocent heroine as the love interest of the main guy. Smart/intelligent heroine makes the story more interesting all the time. Kuga in this case fits the perfect bill, plus she is cuter than Koyuki. XD)
I don't agree with this point. The weakness of being analytical is sometimes he/she can become over-analytical and end up unable to act because of the doubt from the analysis. This is also why in every fiction, they always make a pair of intelligent - hot-blooded or intelligent-sentimental person combination as a protagonist instead of intelligent-intelligent pair combo.

Another reason for not using the intelligent-intelligent pair combo is that it could make the story over-convoluted(too much cook make the pot burnt right?) or the protagonist combo will look either too cold-blooded or cowardly because as we know, analytical person tend to only act after taking everything into account and sometimes(if not always) will choose the "safest" way even if it sacrifice a few people along the way.

Some thing to be noted, I'm not talking about love relationship here, but only for partner relationship when solving problem. Having 2 opposite personality as a partnership will complement each other's weakness and works better than strengthen your strength even further while also making your weakness even greater, which will happen if 2 similar personality partnership is made.
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Old 2011-04-21, 07:00   Link #435
Shadow5YA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonspit4 View Post
5) Will Kuga be better as a partner to Toru than Koyuki?
(ANS: This is a personal answer, but my answer is "Yes". Reason: Kuga is both very intelligent and analytical, which will help Toru solve mysteries faster because she can cover areas that Toru might have missed (ie. 2 detectives are better than one right?) Some ppl mentioned that Koyuki has a good social relationship with the schoolmates, which helped Toru return the lost Iris to the students, therefore Koyuki is the best partner for Toru, but we should also remember that Kuga is the one who talked to each students individually to "steal" their Iris away first, therefore Kuga could have done the same thing if she is in Koyuki's position. In conclusion, I really don't like a naive and innocent heroine as the love interest of the main guy. Smart/intelligent heroine makes the story more interesting all the time. Kuga in this case fits the perfect bill, plus she is cuter than Koyuki. XD)
I disagree with this point, because their personalities and motivations are completely different. Kuga would not do the same thing as Koyuki. If her past actions are any indication, she would be the one to let things run their course. She knew her parents' relationship was in danger and did not want to do anything about it. She was also aware that the guy she was going out with didn't really like her. When Kuga confronted him about it, she did not bother to ask why and did all the talking. With her power, she assumes she knows the reason behind everything when that is not always the case.

Someone who assumes she knows the motivation behind characters and does not bother to ask questions will not learn, and it certainly will not help Toru get off his feet and do some work. He does not need someone to do the analyzing for him when he does an adequate job on his own. What he needs is the motivation to break his minimal exposure policy. If it were Kuga, she would have agreed with it and left him alone.
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Old 2011-04-21, 11:34   Link #436
dragonspit4
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I disagree with this point, because their personalities and motivations are completely different. Kuga would not do the same thing as Koyuki. If her past actions are any indication, she would be the one to let things run their course. She knew her parents' relationship was in danger and did not want to do anything about it. She was also aware that the guy she was going out with didn't really like her. When Kuga confronted him about it, she did not bother to ask why and did all the talking. With her power, she assumes she knows the reason behind everything when that is not always the case.

Someone who assumes she knows the motivation behind characters and does not bother to ask questions will not learn, and it certainly will not help Toru get off his feet and do some work. He does not need someone to do the analyzing for him when he does an adequate job on his own. What he needs is the motivation to break his minimal exposure policy. If it were Kuga, she would have agreed with it and left him alone.
Question 5 is a future tense question. Maybe I didn't clarify this, but this is for the Future Kuga, which means that it's the Kuga after Toru saves her from her problem. Therefore Kuga will have learned about asking the reason to the problem, instead of just assuming everything for herself. She will just interregate the person and find out the truth using her intelligent and analyizing ability. Obviously, when the problem is about yourself, you tend to lose your cool and your common sense in dealing with the problem, but in the future Kuga will be dealing with other ppl's problem, therefore she will be much better in dealing with it and use her ability to solve the mystery.

I am pretty sure Toru will still solve the mystery and tried to save ppl regardless of whether someone (Koyuki) is there to drag him off his feet and get some work done. The reason is because Toru is the kind of person that will not leave problems alone. (ie. A good example would be Shinozuka and Tachibana problem, Toru came "Uninvited" and help saved the day) So your point that Toru absolutely "needs" Koyuki is pointless since Toru could have done just as well with Kuga. So regardless of whether he breaks his minimal exposure policy or not, even if Kuga is beside Toru instead of Koyuki on "future" cases, the pair will still do just as well, if not even better since Kuga is much smarter and analytical than Koyuki.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
He does not need someone to do the analyzing for him when he does an adequate job on his own.
This is fine if Toru is dealing with the current cases and such, but what happens if Toru is dealing with much much more difficult cases in the future, which requires Toru to look into 2 completely different areas? Toru might have more trouble in more difficult cases, therefore Kuga is there to help.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kuroishinigami View Post
I don't agree with this point. The weakness of being analytical is sometimes he/she can become over-analytical and end up unable to act because of the doubt from the analysis. This is also why in every fiction, they always make a pair of intelligent - hot-blooded or intelligent-sentimental person combination as a protagonist instead of intelligent-intelligent pair combo.
Kuga and Toru can learn to combine their strength. If they arrive at the same conclusion in a case, then that means their chance of being right about the case will be more. It might be that Toru's solution is wrong and Kuga's solution is right or better or the reversed. We readers have the tendency to think that Toru "always" has the right solution, but if a more difficult case arrives, Toru might need Kuga's help. I am really tired of the Stupid/Intelligent combo that happens in most of the stories, but intelligent-intelligent pair combo is totally possible, a good example would be Spice and Wolf. (ie. Horo and Lawrence)

Quote:
Originally Posted by kuroishinigami View Post
Another reason for not using the intelligent-intelligent pair combo is that it could make the story over-convoluted(too much cook make the pot burnt right?) or the protagonist combo will look either too cold-blooded or cowardly because as we know, analytical person tend to only act after taking everything into account and sometimes(if not always) will choose the "safest" way even if it sacrifice a few people along the way.
This really heavy depends on the author, but a really complicated mystery that requires both Toru and Kuga to solve would be very exciting yes?
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Old 2011-05-07, 18:52   Link #437
SwiftAsLeaves
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Hi there new here, i just want to share that chapter 19 is out! Sry but you need to get it yourself there is already ch 19 raw just search google okay?

Last edited by SwiftAsLeaves; 2011-05-07 at 19:53.
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Old 2011-05-07, 18:54   Link #438
Johnny
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It's best you remove the link since it's not allowed...
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Old 2011-05-07, 19:52   Link #439
SwiftAsLeaves
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WHy?? it is forbidden??
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Old 2011-05-07, 23:34   Link #440
blitz1/2
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Kuga arc over? I don't know, what do you guys think?
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