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Old 2010-12-10, 16:50   Link #81
Suika-Esper
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A couple things: So Madara's mask was white, making it a true combination of the Rinnegan and Sharingan... I thought it was still orange. Without color pages, we'd never know until the anime. It's a little boring for a color scheme, but it makes sense since he wanted both of those eyes. Secondly, the Zetsus have PANTS! Thank God. lol, plant pants.
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Old 2010-12-10, 16:52   Link #82
Ero-Senn1n
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
For some reason, Anko has Orochimaru's chakra in her. Is this from the Curse Seal? And if it is, have we always known that the Curse Seal contains Orochimaru's chakra?
When Itachi pulled out Orochi from Sasuke the CS2 just disappeared, the reason was never given. So it seems the seal on Sasuke was connected to Orochimaru, so Kishi can give the explanation that Orochi's chakra is in the seal itself. Since seals are jutsu, and chakra is required to create jutsu, it's logical that to think that Orochimaru's jutsu contains his chakra, and it will end only when all the chakra contained is drained by the jutsu or by someone. I think if Kabuto sucks out all of Orochimaru's chakra then the CS might disappear, which would mean that Kabuto saved Anko from the pain of the CS
This guy keeps healing Konoha girls (Hinata, Sakura, now Anko?), if he was not so inhuman i would begin to think that he is somewhat like Itachi, that is he is secretly helping the good guys

But anyway, as expected (for now), Kishimoto wants to save Anko's ass, and so he invents a reason for not killing her now, and later anything can happen, probably Kabuto has a plan to use her which might save her ass.

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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
Additionally, to piss off Nobodyman9, Edo Tensei represents no risk to the user, so, presumably, it requires very little chakra (as we assumed).
I expect that Kabuto is lying here, since this is a summoning type jutsu we should expect that the summoned creature has it's own mind that may turn against the summoner, if he can break free of the mind control part of the jutsu. Itachi is the best candidate for that.
Summoning type jutsu works by using a large amount of chakra when summoning but none after that. So i assume that Kabuto is able to use it only because he has a huge amount of chakra by becoming a snake-monster like Orochimaru.
Also there are techiques to build up more chakra than one can have naturally, one is Tsunade's chakra seal which can contain huge amount of chakra, an other example was Sage-Naruto's kage bunshins which were accumulating nature energy while the real Naruto was fighting. There's also the cursed seal that forcibly creates chakra. Then there is Kisame and his samehada, they could use other people's chakra. So it's not unprecedented that chakra can come from hidden reserves or from the enemy itself.

I think that the only big disadvantage of Edo Tensei should be that the summoned undead should have a finite amount of chakra that comes from the sacrifice's chakra amount. And when they use jutsu or when they regenerate their body that chakra should be drained, and when it reaches zero the sacrifice should die and the summoned soul return to the "pure world".

So if i had to complain about something it would be the lack of chakra draining of the zombie and the jutsu that controls their will.
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Old 2010-12-10, 17:18   Link #83
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^Summoning does not require a large amount of chakra. It's a C-Rank jutsu after all. It is only when you summon a very large object/person that more chakra is needed. Just summoning a person, though, shouldn't be too taxing. No, the main, and really only, problem with Edo Tensei si the preparation. You can't simply summon anybody (get it, any body ). There is a detailed set of requirements for every person summoned. Consequently, the down side is not chakra, but rather preparation and then control after the summoning.

So, I believe Kabuto was telling the truth.
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Old 2010-12-10, 18:03   Link #84
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
No, they were all sealed by Susano'o or destroyed by lingering Amaterasu flames. There is no evidence that any of them escaped Itachi's wrath.
That's my point. If the snakes contained Orochimaru's soul or mind, then at least parts of Orochimaru did indeed escape sealing, whether they were later burned up or not.
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Old 2010-12-10, 18:07   Link #85
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^Summoning does not require a large amount of chakra. It's a C-Rank jutsu after all. It is only when you summon a very large object/person that more chakra is needed. Just summoning a person, though, shouldn't be too taxing. No, the main, and really only, problem with Edo Tensei si the preparation. You can't simply summon anybody (get it, any body ). There is a detailed set of requirements for every person summoned. Consequently, the down side is not chakra, but rather preparation and then control after the summoning.

So, I believe Kabuto was telling the truth.
It is my assumption that large amount of chakra is needed (just like it is only your assumption that small amount is enough here or that it is just the weight of the summoned body that determines the chakra needed), because this jutsu is very strong, and that usually requires large amount of chakra and/or some serious sacrifice. It's just the basic logic of this manga, you always need to give or sacrifice something proportional to the gain. So if you have an advanced jutsu that does not require your chakra to maintain that must mean that you need a larger amount to perform it and also that the chakra of the summoned being is the limit of the jutsu.

I don't think that his preparation is a downside for someone like Kabuto or Madara. I mean Orochimaru pulled out from his ass a 1000 ninjas just to train Sasuke a bit, he could have made 500 zombies of those people just like Kabuto made 1 zombie from 2 people in this chapter. So even if they are individually weak he could have made a large zombie army of them just like a Zetsu army is. And then he could have used those zombies against Konoha. Sure Kabuto is better with this jutsu than Orochi was, but there must be some serious limitation otherwise he wouldn't be afraid of Madara right now.

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That's my point. If the snakes contained Orochimaru's soul or mind, then at least parts of Orochimaru did indeed escape sealing, whether they were later burned up or not.
I think the principle is in this manga that the soul cannot be divided, it is one and only, it is the human itself. Otherwise we could say that Orochimaru's 2 arms are chatting with the 3rd hokage right now
We have seen a spiritual kage bunshin, when Minato and Kushina did talk to Naruto, but it was just a clone of the soul that was powered by a remnant of their chakra and as soon as the chakra was drained it disappeared.
It was clear that Orochimaru's soul was sealed into Itachi's sword, so all other snakes and seal and whatever only contains the chakra.
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Old 2010-12-10, 18:13   Link #86
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you always need to give or sacrifice something proportional to the gain
You have to sacrifice an entire human...that's a greater sacrifice than any amount of chakra (hell, it's an entire bodies supply of chakra).

Kabuto described the technique as having no down side, and from everything we've seen, that seems the most likely explanation.
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Old 2010-12-10, 19:30   Link #87
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Speaking of Konoha defenses, didn't Pain get in without trouble until he was actually inside the village?
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Old 2010-12-10, 19:33   Link #88
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Speaking of Konoha defenses, didn't Pain get in without trouble until he was actually inside the village?
Anyone can enter the village. It's not like there is a boundary field preventing them in - it's alerting the sentries that is the trick.
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Old 2010-12-10, 19:35   Link #89
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Pein had help from the Rinnegan I think
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Old 2010-12-10, 19:54   Link #90
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Pein had help from the Rinnegan I think
Pain destroyed a border post, then they throwed the summoning Pain to the village and got summoned. They were detected by the sensing squad, but that was part of the plan, because Pain wanted a diversion factor too.
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Old 2010-12-10, 20:55   Link #91
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I like Kishimoto's explanation for the concept of Edo Tensei.

Some people were speculating about how Itachi or Pain's dojutsu could be used if their eyes have been removed. Since Edo Tensei uses the DNA of the corpse no matter how decomposed they are or what part of their body is missing they can still be brought back to life with their full abilities.
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Old 2010-12-10, 23:03   Link #92
Neji112
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Maybe Kabuto plans using Anko as a new body for Orochimaru? She was probably a candidate for that to begin with.

Now that we know the secrets of Edo Tensei and who Kabuto couldn't summon, gotta wonder who was in that casket that made Madara so afraid.

Madara himself? That's impossible if he's the real Madara. His brother maybe or the original Sage of the 6 Paths? Not a lot of ninjas left unsummoned who Madara himself would fear.

It's interesting Madara mentioned the balance of power against him. We still have no idea how strong he really is.

Now that it's confirmed that Nagato and Itachi have their abilities, who on the side of good have the power to stop either of them?(Outside of Naruto and Bee)
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Old 2010-12-10, 23:38   Link #93
Shining Celebi
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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
I think the principle is in this manga that the soul cannot be divided, it is one and only, it is the human itself. Otherwise we could say that Orochimaru's 2 arms are chatting with the 3rd hokage right now
We have seen a spiritual kage bunshin, when Minato and Kushina did talk to Naruto, but it was just a clone of the soul that was powered by a remnant of their chakra and as soon as the chakra was drained it disappeared.
It was clear that Orochimaru's soul was sealed into Itachi's sword, so all other snakes and seal and whatever only contains the chakra.
I don't know - I think Kishimoto doesn't really know the difference between minds/souls/chakras in the Naruto universe. I like your principle and agree it should be true if it isn't (otherwise like you say you have ridiculous garbage like Orochimaru's arms talking) but I don't know if the manga really supports it sometimes...like how Orochimaru's Fushi Tensei supposedly moves his soul (according to some translations anyway, I can't find a raw), but if so, why did he recover the use of his arms...?

But, I do think Kishimoto wouldn't have shown the white snakes unless he intended to do something with them. Even if they were all burnt up, there should be a reason for showing that parts of Orochimaru escaped being sealed away.
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Old 2010-12-10, 23:39   Link #94
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It's interesting Madara mentioned the balance of power against him. We still have no idea how strong he really is.
He did teleport with Yamato in an instant and now stashing Anko somehow. Both their powers aside from rinnegan are practically identical.
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Old 2010-12-10, 23:47   Link #95
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Just summoning a person, though, shouldn't be too taxing.
They're not summoning a person, they're summoning a soul of a person from the afterlife. I assume that would be quite taxing.

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You can't simply summon anybody.
No, just almost every single character we've ever seen in the story thus far.

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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
^

You have to sacrifice an entire human...that's a greater sacrifice than any amount of chakra (hell, it's an entire bodies supply of chakra).
That alone I wouldn't have too much of a problem with (though I'd like to note that the amount of a chakra a body has can vary, and that the user should still have to give up some of their own chakra).

But the issue have is that, in addition to summoning a soul of the dead into a zombie that can use their techniques, they're also immortal and have a seemingly limitless supply of chakra. I'm sorry, but where is that chakra coming from? And what exactly is making their bodies regnerate?
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Old 2010-12-11, 03:14   Link #96
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Originally Posted by Nobodyman9 View Post
They're not summoning a person, they're summoning a soul of a person from the afterlife. I assume that would be quite taxing.
Why? Don't you summon a body already attached to a soul when you summon Gamabunta? I feel it's the opposite, a soul would weigh less.

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No, just almost every single character we've ever seen in the story thus far.
Apart from Shisui, Jiraiya, the First, Second, Third and Fourth Hokages and whoever's DNA Kabuto couldn't get his hands on, for, as stated, he had had a lot of failures stemming from unrecognisable corpses.

Quote:
But the issue have is that, in addition to summoning a soul of the dead into a zombie that can use their techniques, they're also immortal and have a seemingly limitless supply of chakra. I'm sorry, but where is that chakra coming from? And what exactly is making their bodies regnerate?
You ask that question now? These were features of the technique pre-timeskip when Orochimaru used it against the Third and you didn't have a problem with it then, so why now?
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Old 2010-12-11, 03:44   Link #97
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soul would weigh less.
A soul weighs 21 grams....

Edo Tensei doesn't bother me. It's a faux resurrection technique derived from Buddhist teachings. Hell, it even seems to work off of the Fullmetal Alchemist principles of Equivalent Exchange: one soul for one soul, one body for one body; everything is equal (unlike Nagato's horrendous resurrection abilities which seem to only require chakra). (It certainly helps that the resurrected person is not really alive.)

btw, Can we confirm now that it seems very unlikely that Kabuto summoned forth the original Rikudou-Sennin?
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Old 2010-12-11, 03:53   Link #98
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oh james..
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Old 2010-12-11, 04:02   Link #99
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
A soul weighs 21 grams....
Uh...neat.

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Edo Tensei doesn't bother me. It's a faux resurrection technique derived from Buddhist teachings. Hell, it even seems to work off of the Fullmetal Alchemist principles of Equivalent Exchange: one soul for one soul, one body for one body; everything is equal (unlike Nagato's horrendous resurrection abilities which seem to only require chakra). (It certainly helps that the resurrected person is not really alive.)
Yeah, because it worked so well when they tried to resurrect people in Fullmetal Alchemist.

Edo Tensei couldn't have less to do with equivalent exchange. One human life, some DNA, a minimal amount of chakra and some weirdass ritual for an immortal zombie with limitless chakra. Sense, this makes none.
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Old 2010-12-11, 04:10   Link #100
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Oro is capable of transforming his host body into a powerful ninja just by transferring his soul. Edo Tensei is basically the same thing. Considering he picked Anko once, and how weak she is, it's pretty safe to assume the host's own chakra/powers doesn't matter at all.
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