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Old 2010-12-12, 07:59   Link #121
Ero-Senn1n
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Originally Posted by Sharfan View Post
The way I see it is that the zombies have to be getting chakra from somewhere, as one of Kishi's first rules: you can't do jutsu without chakra. From what I can remember, this rule hasn't been broken. My idea is that Kabuto has a monster amount of chakra, and the zombies use his chakra for jutsu instead of their own, since they probably can't make their own. If this is the case, then I would be completely fine with this jutsu. But, if there isn't a good explanation on where the chakra comes from, then I'm with Slayerx and the others in saying that it doesn't make sense.

Maybe they use natural energy. . . O.o
When using summoning jutsu the chakra of the summoned creature is his own, not of the summoner. The summoner needs chakra to summon, but after that he is safe. In the case of Edo Tensei there is a complicated ritual where Kabuto creates the summoned human, that's where he needs to use his chakra to summon the soul from the "pure world", the amount needed is unknown. Also he needs chakra to execute the binding jutsu which binds the summoned soul to the living sacrifice, again the chakra amount is unknown. And while he does the ritual it might be that he also adds his own chakra (powered by the white snake power of Orochimaru) which would then result in a stronger creature, but this is only an assumption here. There's also the question of where in the hell is Kabuto storing all those people between the ritual and the actual summoning, either in an unknown dimension or they always go back to the pure world when unsummoned, that seems to be the most controversial part.

The zombie has his own chakra: the sacrificed man's chakra is there. Apart from that it might be that the summoned soul also has some chakra and also Kabuto might have added some of his own.

The only big problem is that if these zombies cannot be killed that would contradict the chakra consumption rules of Kishimoto. If these zombies really consume chakra when using jutsu and when regenerating that means the opponent only needs to drain their chakra. If they have a fixed amount then it's obvious how to do it, if they also can produce chakra like living beings then the opponent just needs to force them to consume more chakra than what they can produce. For example by constantly destroying their body with kyuubi powered rasenshurikens as long as their regeneration consumes all the chakra and the soul can return to the pure world. If this method doesn't work then Kishimoto has created a large plot hole.

The same questions were asked when Orochimaru summoned the 1st and 2nd. But there was no answer since those were killed quickly, i assume the 3rd hokage's chakra was running out faster than that of the zombies so he had to act quickly. Also i think it was shown there that if the sacrifices are weak (2 sound genins) then the zombies will be weak compared to the originals. Back then i have complained about how weak the 1st hokage was, just remember that the 1st hokage did beat Madara, but he could not beat the very old 3rd hokage? It does make sense only if the 1st hokage's power was limited by the sacrifice body being weak. And i think this is where Kabuto has perfected the jutsu, he probably adds his own white snake monster chakra to make the zombie stronger.
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Old 2010-12-12, 12:03   Link #122
Sharfan
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That's what I was saying in my last post. The jutsu would be rather impractical unless the zombies had some source of chakra to use if their own ran out. So, I was suggesting that Kabuto would create a sort of link to his own chakra reserves, which I would guess are quite huge since he's turning into (turned into?) Orochimaru, meaning that the zombies could just leech from his which would allow them to stay a much longer time. Otherwise, Deidara would be unable to spam his C0 (?) bomb and continue regenerating after each use. I would guess that after its first couple of uses his chakra would probably become drained, not just from actually using the technique but from having to regenerate from basically nothing. If the actual process of regeneration required a sort of chakra, then full-body regeration would have to require a pretty good amount.

When I playfully inserted the bit about Natural Energy being used, I had an idea that they might be able to replace the Physical Energy portion of the equation with Natural Energy. This would give them the exact amount of chakra they originally had, as they would only be able to use Natural Energy up until it equals their Spiritual Energy, or experience. Not thinking about the implications of such a happening, this would actually be a quite plausable substitute for the (most likely) vacant Physical Energy, since they're really not living.
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Old 2010-12-12, 12:30   Link #123
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^‘Tis an interesting idea, nature energy supplanting physical energy., but, it has never been stated whether any besides the Toads know of nature energy, and if no one else (specifically Tobirama and Orochimaru) knew of the energy, then I doubt they could have created a Edo Tensei that uses nature energy.
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Old 2010-12-12, 13:58   Link #124
Ero-Senn1n
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Originally Posted by Sharfan View Post
That's what I was saying in my last post. The jutsu would be rather impractical unless the zombies had some source of chakra to use if their own ran out. So, I was suggesting that Kabuto would create a sort of link to his own chakra reserves, which I would guess are quite huge since he's turning into (turned into?) Orochimaru, meaning that the zombies could just leech from his which would allow them to stay a much longer time. Otherwise, Deidara would be unable to spam his C0 (?) bomb and continue regenerating after each use. I would guess that after its first couple of uses his chakra would probably become drained, not just from actually using the technique but from having to regenerate from basically nothing. If the actual process of regeneration required a sort of chakra, then full-body regeration would have to require a pretty good amount.
I understood that, but Kabuto said two things that seem to contradict this:
1, this is a summoning type jutsu, we know that summoned creatures do not drain the summoner's chakra
2, Kabuto says that the user is safe, but if a hundred zombies would drain his chakra he surely wouldn't be safe

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Originally Posted by Sharfan View Post
When I playfully inserted the bit about Natural Energy being used, I had an idea that they might be able to replace the Physical Energy portion of the equation with Natural Energy. This would give them the exact amount of chakra they originally had, as they would only be able to use Natural Energy up until it equals their Spiritual Energy, or experience. Not thinking about the implications of such a happening, this would actually be a quite plausable substitute for the (most likely) vacant Physical Energy, since they're really not living.
Using nature energy seems to much overpowered, even a sage who has mastered the use of natural energy needs to stay still to gather it. Not to mention all the requirements and how dangerous it is.
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Old 2010-12-12, 14:02   Link #125
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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
I understood that, but Kabuto said two things that seem to contradict this:
1, this is a summoning type jutsu, we know that summoned creatures do not drain the summoner's chakra
2, Kabuto says that the user is safe, but if a hundred zombies would drain his chakra he surely wouldn't be safe


Using nature energy seems to much overpowered, even a sage who has mastered the use of natural energy needs to stay still to gather it. Not to mention all the requirements and how dangerous it is.
It is simply overpowering things. This jutsu has no stopping it and nature energy is super powerful but a limit was placed on it I wonder...
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Old 2010-12-12, 19:29   Link #126
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I don't know why we must give the jutsu some flaws when it has some pretty huge ones that I can see. Notably the power of love thing. We already have two zombies gone because of it and the war just started. I think I can safely say I wouldn't mind if the zombies were impossible to destroy because of the unnatural relationship between a foreign body and a soul brought back from the pure world.

As for chakra, I would support a theory that Kabuto's white snake powers are sufficiently potent to provide most of the zombies with enough chakra for their jutsu. None of them have been using huge techniques yet, and if they get destroyed, I believe it will be something similar like Sasori's 100 puppet technique. The focus will get better and sharper as Kabuto loses his zombies.
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Old 2010-12-12, 21:00   Link #127
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Or maybe, chakra = soul. When you run out of chakra, all it means is that the soul is weak enough that it can't anchor to the body anymore. It goes to the pure world, and without the soul, the body dies.

Why are you guys arguing about zombie chakra anyways? Not like we know how much their reserves were when they were alive.
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Old 2010-12-12, 22:21   Link #128
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I am surprised there isn't more talk about Kishimto brutally offing two name characters in this chapter. Particularly after all the talk about how Kishi was turning this into Bleach.

In the grand scheme of things, Fu and Torune were nobodies, but they were characters Kishi named and appeared in a number of chapters. They were even on a cover. They were no different than the other Kage bodyguards and other newbies like Omoi, Karui, and Samui. So if they can die, that means those others can also die. Hopefully this means we are going to see some Alliance deaths now. At least the fodder should get wrecked.
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Old 2010-12-12, 22:31   Link #129
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^At least Karui and Omoi are different. They will be converted to Narutoism (especially Karui), so they have to survive long enough to undergo their "enlightenment"...
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Old 2010-12-12, 22:37   Link #130
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Originally Posted by Ulquiorra View Post
I am surprised there isn't more talk about Kishimto brutally offing two name characters in this chapter.
You mean the two fodder characters who we know nothing about and care nothing about? Yeah, shame that.

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In the grand scheme of things, Fu and Torune were nobodies, but they were characters Kishi named and appeared in a number of chapters. They were even on a cover.
The fact that they were named and appeared on a cover doesn't mean jack shit.

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They were no different than the other Kage bodyguards
Yeah, don't really care about them either.

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and other newbies like Omoi, Karui, and Samui. So if they can die, that means those others can also die. Hopefully this means we are going to see some Alliance deaths now. At least the fodder should get wrecked.
Again, I fail to see why we should care. True, I care about Omoi and Karui a little more than...well, those other guys, but we don't know anything about them and I really wouldn't care that much if they up and died.
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Old 2010-12-13, 04:38   Link #131
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Nobodyman9, I am not saying you have to care about Fu and Torune. Who really does? They were around for an arc. But they were name characters that Kishi actually put some work into according to the recent fanbook. So the brutal way they were treated gives me hope that we finally might see a real war. I know he is not killing any of the under 20 crowd, but at least he might take out some name characters, which would at least make this better than the Winter War. That's all.

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^At least Karui and Omoi are different. They will be converted to Narutoism (especially Karui), so they have to survive long enough to undergo their "enlightenment"...
I thought Omoi was already a deacon in the Church? But Karui has to survive and apologize to Naruto. And then be forced to fangirl him for her penance. Now that is real hell.
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Old 2010-12-13, 04:49   Link #132
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Nobodyman9, I am not saying you have to care about Fu and Torune. Who really does? They were around for an arc.
Exactly this.

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But they were name characters that Kishi actually put some work into according to the recent fanbook.
This sentence is so unbelievably hilarious I don't even know where to begin.

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So the brutal way they were treated gives me hope that we finally might see a real war. I know he is not killing any of the under 20 crowd, but at least he might take out some name characters, which would at least make this better than the Winter War. That's all.
I sincerely doubt that the deaths of two fodder characters are any indication of the future deaths of major named characters.

Anyway, as for getting a "real war." As long as we keep getting rushed two chapters battles with no character development and zombies getting taken out by talk no jutsu, then no, we are never going to get a "real war."

Oh, and saying it's better than the Winter War is literally saying that it's better than nothing.
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Old 2010-12-13, 05:06   Link #133
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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
When using summoning jutsu the chakra of the summoned creature is his own, not of the summoner. The summoner needs chakra to summon, but after that he is safe. In the case of Edo Tensei there is a complicated ritual where Kabuto creates the summoned human, that's where he needs to use his chakra to summon the soul from the "pure world", the amount needed is unknown. Also he needs chakra to execute the binding jutsu which binds the summoned soul to the living sacrifice, again the chakra amount is unknown. And while he does the ritual it might be that he also adds his own chakra (powered by the white snake power of Orochimaru) which would then result in a stronger creature, but this is only an assumption here. There's also the question of where in the hell is Kabuto storing all those people between the ritual and the actual summoning, either in an unknown dimension or they always go back to the pure world when unsummoned, that seems to be the most controversial part. .

thinking about the opponent only needs to drain their chakra to kill the Zombies?... lets think about Samedaha, Kisame's old sword who eats Chakra?.. he now belongs to KillerBee, so he could help them defeat the zombies.
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Old 2010-12-13, 09:36   Link #134
Sabaku Kyu
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Originally Posted by Ulquiorra View Post
I am surprised there isn't more talk about Kishimto brutally offing two name characters in this chapter. Particularly after all the talk about how Kishi was turning this into Bleach.

In the grand scheme of things, Fu and Torune were nobodies, but they were characters Kishi named and appeared in a number of chapters. They were even on a cover. They were no different than the other Kage bodyguards and other newbies like Omoi, Karui, and Samui. So if they can die, that means those others can also die. Hopefully this means we are going to see some Alliance deaths now. At least the fodder should get wrecked.
As Danzou's bodyguards Fu and Torune weren't exactly good guys and they received less personality than the other Kage bodyguards. In other words, they were guys who's deaths wouldn't bother most people.But Kishi has never really shied away from killing characters likable or not. Just that, for every legitimate death, there are just as many miraculous recoveries so I would brace myself for those too in the upcoming battles.

There's going to be deaths but I think to many it'll never seem real (barring something drastic) because it doesn't feel like anyone can die. "Realistic" war stories where children die like dogs and desperate ninja kill civilians over a scrap of food...you won't see that outside of flashbacks.
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Old 2010-12-13, 11:29   Link #135
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Originally Posted by Ulquiorra View Post
I thought Omoi was already a deacon in the Church? But Karui has to survive and apologize to Naruto. And then be forced to fangirl him for her penance.
-Considering Karin of all people is being converted to Narutoism without Naruto even addressing her in any way on-screen...err, panel I fail to see how this surprises you my good man. Seriously, Naruto can get the current Mizukage to adhere to his principles just by taking his shirt off. He's gotten THAT good at the Friendship no jutsu.
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Old 2010-12-13, 14:32   Link #136
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^ Speaking of which, I wonder what Karin is up too?

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As Danzou's bodyguards Fu and Torune weren't exactly good guys and they received less personality than the other Kage bodyguards. In other words, they were guys who's deaths wouldn't bother most people.But Kishi has never really shied away from killing characters likable or not. Just that, for every legitimate death, there are just as many miraculous recoveries so I would brace myself for those too in the upcoming battles.
I don't think Fu and Torune were bad guys or even were portrayed in a negative light. They were like Sai. A victim of Danzou's ROOT policies. There was also speculation that they could factor into a larger plot if Kishi wrote a civil war for Konoha. A lot of fans were looking forward to a potential civil war in Konoha if Danzou stayed in power. How many of the clan members also have family in ROOT? Would the Konoha 11 actually do something? Would Naruto lead a revolt against Danzou? Would he finally lose the babysitters and start looking like a leader? It could have made for a good story. But alas we got Sasuke killing Danzou and armadillo penis. Well at least the Minato and Kushina flashback was nice.

Anyway, none of the Kage bodyguards have been really developed. But I'm not complaining since there are way too many characters in this manga now. Time wasted on them would just highlight how poorly Kishi has handled the Konoha 11 in Shippuden. So if they end dying like Fu and Torune did this chapter, it won't have that much of an impact.
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Old 2010-12-13, 15:06   Link #137
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Anyway, as for getting a "real war." As long as we keep getting rushed two chapters battles with no character development and zombies getting taken out by talk no jutsu, then no, we are never going to get a "real war."
Talk and Friendship no jutsu is what Kishi considers 'character development.' If this war is going to be 'real,' it needs less character development and more ninja battle development. And the closest thing we've had to that so far, was brought to us by Fu and Torune.
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Old 2010-12-13, 15:26   Link #138
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Originally Posted by Nobodyman9 View Post
Anyway, as for getting a "real war." As long as we keep getting rushed two chapters battles with no character development and zombies getting taken out by talk no jutsu, then no, we are never going to get a "real war."
LOL, so most of WWII was fought between individuals making epic posses before unleashing their rifle/machine gun fire on each other for an extended period of time?

An actual war is chaotic and fairly random (on an individual level). Just using Oda's war as an example (which I consider to be a well done Shounen manga interpretation of war), we should expect more chapters of short (and often inconclusive) battles, with little time for any real reflection of the characters that die. It wouldn't be a "real" war unless it was rushed.
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Old 2010-12-13, 15:45   Link #139
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best thing he could do about killing characters is making an estimated number of the amount of dead ninja's he finds acceptable.
For example:
80.000 Ninja's fighting in the war
atleast 10.000 need to die...
well, thats 12,5%...
Then 12,5% of the named-ninja's need to die aswell..
Then you can divide these into 3 categories, because obviously the stronger ninja's have a bigger chance of survival..
of the weaker named-ninjas 10% dies
mediocre named ninjas 2% dies
strong named ninjas 0,5% dies

No idea if this makes sence, but I'd like a mathematical and realistic approach xD
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Old 2010-12-13, 16:09   Link #140
Nobodyman9
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Talk and Friendship no jutsu is what Kishi considers 'character development.'
And I'm sure you understand how goofy that is.

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If this war is going to be 'real,' it needs less character development and more ninja battle development.
It needs both.

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And the closest thing we've had to that so far, was brought to us by Fu and Torune.
Fu and Torune getting offed in order to explain Edo Tensei is battle development? LOLWUT?

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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
An actual war is chaotic and fairly random (on an individual level). Just using Oda's war as an example (which I consider to be a well done Shounen manga interpretation of war), we should expect more chapters of short (and often inconclusive) battles, with little time for any real reflection of the characters that die. It wouldn't be a "real" war unless it was rushed.
Quite true. But unfortunately this is also the last chance for the secondary characters to shine, so that factor does into play. I know most of us want to see some epic battles from them after they've been neglected for so long, but that's most likely a pipe dream.
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