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Old 2012-03-31, 17:40   Link #2721
bones
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zibi88 View Post
maybe becouse Sheppards will power still was fighting the indoctrination attempts... he was allwasy "destroy the reapers" and not like IM control them or even think about different road except of killing them once for all

so here might be the difference between indoctrination like in Seren from ME1 and him.... he is not aware that they are trying to break him and make him work for them...and he still goas around and gets the kill them

maybe this is why VI did not find indoctrination in shep. becouse he was still not converted completly he was resisting...he had friends to keep his mind in check... he could talk with liara, garrus or tali about his nightmares...his throughts...while IM or Seren were kinda outsiders...they prefered to be alone and here is why they lost to the indoctrination... shep has many allies, many friends or even a love interest person to listen to everything he feels or what torments him
Ok, I'm with you so far but where's the indoctrination worming it's way into Shepard's mind coming from, the Illusive Man and Kai Leng spent prolonged time with Reaper tech in their secret Cerberus base but that's not the case for Shepard as far as I know.
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Old 2012-03-31, 17:46   Link #2722
Keroko
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Nobody ever said indoctrination required constant close-range exposure, but let's count:

ME1: Shepard was rather close to sovereign during the final battle.
ME2: Shepard spend quite a long time in the collector ship, the collector base, a dead reaper and was exposed to Object Rho for two days straight.
ME3: Lots of reaper-tech salvaging and close encounters with reapers throughout the entire game.
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Old 2012-03-31, 18:02   Link #2723
bones
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Nobody ever said indoctrination required constant close-range exposure, but let's count:

ME1: Shepard was rather close to sovereign during the final battle.
ME2: Shepard spend quite a long time in the collector ship, the collector base, a dead reaper and was exposed to Object Rho for two days straight.
ME3: Lots of reaper-tech salvaging and close encounters with reapers throughout the entire game.
True, it hasn't been stated outright but all the previous cases of indoctrination were after constant close range exposure like Saren, Matriarch Benenzia and the Cerberus scientists who investigated the derelict Reaper. I'm not sure how long it takes for indoctrination to kick in but I don't think that two days is enough time
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Old 2012-03-31, 18:02   Link #2724
Terrestrial Dream
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Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Spoiler for spoilers:

I can see why a lot of people would want to accept the indoctrination theory but for me it just makes as little sense as the existing endings.
What about the fact that some of the Protheans were indoctrinated? It at least shows that the VI is not full proof.
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Old 2012-03-31, 18:35   Link #2725
Keroko
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Originally Posted by bones View Post
True, it hasn't been stated outright but all the previous cases of indoctrination were after constant close range exposure like Saren, Matriarch Benenzia and the Cerberus scientists who investigated the derelict Reaper. I'm not sure how long it takes for indoctrination to kick in but I don't think that two days is enough time
Exactly. It hasn't been stated outright. That hole in our knowledge is enough to make the indoctrination theory itself viable. If Bioware says "you don't need constant exposure, you just need to get close to a reaper once for them to start the process" then we're game.

Point in case to support the theory, the illusive man. His indoctrination was started far before the events of ME2 after coming into contact with an object Rho-like artifact for a few minutes, half an hour tops. It's that event that gave him his eyes.
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Old 2012-03-31, 18:49   Link #2726
bones
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Exactly. It hasn't been stated outright. That hole in our knowledge is enough to make the indoctrination theory itself viable. If Bioware says "you don't need constant exposure, you just need to get close to a reaper once for them to start the process" then we're game.
Hmm, seems like a last minute thing to me if Bioware does that but whatever works I guess.
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Old 2012-03-31, 19:05   Link #2727
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What about the fact that some of the Protheans were indoctrinated? It at least shows that the VI is not full proof.
What about it ?

The prothean empire encompassed many other spacefaring species so in any realistic scenario you can hardly expect the protheans to veto EVERY single one of them with a VI while fighting a centery long war of attrition besides that it if you want to make assumptions its not a stretch to assume that the tech to detect indoctrination was developed late in the cycle and incorporated into the beacons as some kind of last ditch fail safe.

What is established in game is that the VI could tell Kai Leng was indoctrinated meaning it was capable of detecting indoctrination and yet it didn't detect Shepard as being indoctrinated which makes it pretty clear that he/she wasn't.

Regarding the actual indoctrination process itself it WAS stated in ME1 by an asari scientist on Virmire that indoctrination takes a fair period of time usually "several days to a week" of exposure to sovereigns signal to physiologically break a person with "subtle whispers you can't ignore, that compels you to do things without knowing why" while it doesn't mention how close specifically if you look at points in the game where people have been indoctrinated such as the derelict reaper or the arrival asteroid base it took a good deal of time in close proximity to reaper tech before the people became indoctrinated.

For example the Cerberus scientists on the derelict had the time to set up an outpost/base throughout the internal structure and then study the reaper and dragon teeth before contact was lost and in Arrival the people who found out about the alpha relay through the reaper beacon had enough time to formulate a plan, acquire assets and build a base and giant engines on an asteroid before finally being turned right before they where about to see their plan through.

Besides the two day that Shepard was unconscious during the arrival he/she was never in proximity to reaper tech for any prolonged period of time.

The indoctrination theory is the equivalent of poring a bowl of alpha bits cereal and picking out words, its just people trying to make the best out of a bad situation by reading too much into plot holes and bad writing.
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Old 2012-03-31, 19:39   Link #2728
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Have you watched the youtube videos regarding this theory?

Like I said, I'm tired of hating the ending. Though imperfect, the Indoctrination theory is still a better construct than what we get at face value at the end, because if you weigh it, there is more proof for the theory than against it. This way, I can focus my energy elsewhere instead of spewing out hate words in the internet. Unless of course, you want to hate. Because if somehow the theory came to make better sense than what you watched in the ending, you can't hate anymore.

Quote:
The indoctrination theory is the equivalent of poring a bowl of alpha bits cereal and picking out words, its just people trying to make the best out of a bad situation by reading too much into plot holes and bad writing.
And why is that so bad? First of all, if one is complaining about plot holes and inconsistency, why use information coming from the same source to deny a fan-made interpretation? Sure, they're selectively ignoring things, but they do so to be able to sleep better at night. Imo it's better than to selectively ignore things so you can remain hating it.
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Old 2012-03-31, 19:53   Link #2729
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Finished ME3 last night.

After 110 hours combined with that character, making decisions all along the way that I thought would hold repercussions along the entire game, it came to a close of "choose one of three endings" whcih are actually the same, they just change the colour overlay of the characters...

Seriously?

I can put up with the bat shit and insane endings as in they doesn't make a lick of sense but three choices were all I got?

I would have preferred the ending to have been pre-chosen based on my actions to that point. Give me some reason to want to replay the game. Not just get booted back to the mission before the final confrontation with a plain as day promise of inbound DLC...
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Old 2012-03-31, 19:59   Link #2730
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I'm tired of hating the ending, too, but I agree that the indoctrination theory is stupid. It's not as stupid as the ending taken at face value, though.

Like that earlier video said, really, everything was fine up until the blue god kid showed up. Cut that douchenozzle out of the game and rework the final moments and we could have something suitable for Mass Effect.
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Old 2012-03-31, 21:44   Link #2731
Terrestrial Dream
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Originally Posted by Drake View Post
What about it ?

The prothean empire encompassed many other spacefaring species so in any realistic scenario you can hardly expect the protheans to veto EVERY single one of them with a VI while fighting a centery long war of attrition besides that it if you want to make assumptions its not a stretch to assume that the tech to detect indoctrination was developed late in the cycle and incorporated into the beacons as some kind of last ditch fail safe.

What is established in game is that the VI could tell Kai Leng was indoctrinated meaning it was capable of detecting indoctrination and yet it didn't detect Shepard as being indoctrinated which makes it pretty clear that he/she wasn't.

Regarding the actual indoctrination process itself it WAS stated in ME1 by an asari scientist on Virmire that indoctrination takes a fair period of time usually "several days to a week" of exposure to sovereigns signal to physiologically break a person with "subtle whispers you can't ignore, that compels you to do things without knowing why" while it doesn't mention how close specifically if you look at points in the game where people have been indoctrinated such as the derelict reaper or the arrival asteroid base it took a good deal of time in close proximity to reaper tech before the people became indoctrinated.

For example the Cerberus scientists on the derelict had the time to set up an outpost/base throughout the internal structure and then study the reaper and dragon teeth before contact was lost and in Arrival the people who found out about the alpha relay through the reaper beacon had enough time to formulate a plan, acquire assets and build a base and giant engines on an asteroid before finally being turned right before they where about to see their plan through.

Besides the two day that Shepard was unconscious during the arrival he/she was never in proximity to reaper tech for any prolonged period of time.

The indoctrination theory is the equivalent of poring a bowl of alpha bits cereal and picking out words, its just people trying to make the best out of a bad situation by reading too much into plot holes and bad writing.
My point was that there could be a potential reason why the VI could not detect Shepard's possible indoctrination.

And we really don't know the details of full detail on indoctrination so there are some rooms in the possible explanation.

Personally I think indoctrination is wrong and there is noway that Bioware thought this much. But there is one detail that makes me question it, the fact that Anderson was shot and the gun wound is on Shepard instead of Anderson. That one incident makes me wonder if there is really more to the ending than we think. I would just be happy if Bioware decides to redo the entire Earth mission.
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Old 2012-03-31, 21:54   Link #2732
erneiz_hyde
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Originally Posted by Terrestrial Dream View Post
there is noway that Bioware thought this much.
Personally, this alone is enough to doubt the theory, lol.

Bioware has made inexplicable plot holes and inconsistencies before, like in Dragon Age.
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Old 2012-03-31, 23:10   Link #2733
bones
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Originally Posted by Terrestrial Dream View Post
My point was that there could be a potential reason why the VI could not detect Shepard's possible indoctrination.

And we really don't know the details of full detail on indoctrination so there are some rooms in the possible explanation.

Personally I think indoctrination is wrong and there is noway that Bioware thought this much. But there is one detail that makes me question it, the fact that Anderson was shot and the gun wound is on Shepard instead of Anderson. That one incident makes me wonder if there is really more to the ending than we think. I would just be happy if Bioware decides to redo the entire Earth mission.
Uhh no he was shot by one of those Reaper turned turian things on the way to the beam of light that transported him to the Citadel.
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Old 2012-03-31, 23:28   Link #2734
Terrestrial Dream
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Personally, this alone is enough to doubt the theory, lol.

Bioware has made inexplicable plot holes and inconsistencies before, like in Dragon Age.
Huh really? I can't remember a particular plot hole from Dragon Age.


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Uhh no he was shot by one of those Reaper turned turian things on the way to the beam of light that transported him to the Citadel.
She was not shot in the stomach area though, instead Marauder or Marauder Shields, which is what most people like to call it at this point, got her in the shoulder.
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Old 2012-03-31, 23:29   Link #2735
Alchemist007
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Old 2012-03-31, 23:33   Link #2736
Terrestrial Dream
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ed: ninja'd. Here's a comic

Lol Kai Leng. The only time I was happy to do a renegade interrupt with a paragon Shepard was when I killed him.
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Old 2012-04-01, 00:28   Link #2737
MeisterBabylon
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Producer, assemble your team.

Spoiler for Team:


*RUUUUUUUUUNS*
Spoiler for Delusionary Selection:


Emperor forbid, my delusion ended up mirroring real life.
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Old 2012-04-01, 00:46   Link #2738
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Quote:
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Huh really? I can't remember a particular plot hole from Dragon Age.
Spoiler for spoilers of Dragon Age 2 ending...:


Not being able to stop it and ride off into the sunset isn't a plot hole... it's intentional.

The problem with DA2 is that people were fooled by DAO, which is not dark fantasy, but essentially a Lord of the Rings rehash. When they were introduced to the far grimmer Kirkwall setting, where your choices didn't really impact very much at all, despite how powerful Hawke became... in a way, DA2's story and characters are closer to reality and not fantasy ideals, so they felt less epic and less heroic. DA2's overall tone suggests that this is "working as intended."
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Old 2012-04-01, 00:59   Link #2739
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This one just wishes that it was just Mass Effect and not Mass inEffective.
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Old 2012-04-01, 01:27   Link #2740
erneiz_hyde
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Let's admit that I didn't really notice this myself nor did I care to check, but there was some talk about DAO Awakening couldn't have been canon because of a timeline discrepancy. Which could've been avoided by making the time gap after Hawke's arrival in Kirkwall longer than, 2 years was it? But enough of that for now, it's oot.

On the topic of ME. How does one be a good Vanguard? How do you use the biotic charge? I seem to die everytime I use it. I always play as an Infiltrator or Sentinel and recenly Adept. Btw, has the biotic combos always present? I don't recall using them in ME2.
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