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Old 2012-05-08, 02:16   Link #3061
Keroko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
Yes... this is what I suspect. They fucked up, but instead of admit it, delete Blue God Kid and scrap the existing ending, now they're going to say "see, we meant to do that!" and actually use the indoctrination theory...

Fans of ME found it really easy to buy the indoctrination theory. Even I did, but now after having stepped away from ME for a while, I can recognize that it was just my mind trying desperately to make sense of the senseless.

If the indoctrination ending is the actual ending, then I'll be almost totally convinced that it was a saving throw, not a pre-planned ending DLC.
Even after aknowledging that the indoctrination theory is purely something the fans thought up, I still prefer Bioware just use it over the existing ending.

I cannot believe the PR-devs no matter how many times they say it that they're proud of this ending. It's the complete oposite of what they promised us and filled to the brink with plotholes and open endings. It's a terrible ending of a level not seen since KotoR II, and even that one was more conclusive.
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Old 2012-05-08, 04:42   Link #3062
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Indoctrination theory isn't an ending at all; it is just an in-universe way to claim the ending didn't actually happen, that it was all a hallucination.

In a sense, the Theory is just a retcon to redo the ending a different way. You still need to write a new ending after the Indoctrination explanation. Thus they could have just delete the god-child and pretend it never happened.

Pity they had to stick with their own words on how proud they are of the ending, and that it was exactly what they had in mind.
I do have to thank ME3 to teach me to never trust game journalists ever again. I finally found out which side they are on; the journalists are just mouth pieces of the game companies. We customers are just dirt to them.
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Old 2012-05-08, 04:54   Link #3063
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I reckon its just bad writing, and Bioware just don't want to admit it. So they are covering it up.
Bioware may of wanted to hold back the game, so they could go over the story, but I think EA had there hands in some of this.

Two things I really hated in Mass Effect 3 was this god child and that your choices didn't really mean anything. This probably is the same for everyone.
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Old 2012-05-08, 05:11   Link #3064
synaesthetic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
It's a terrible ending of a level not seen since KotoR II, and even that one was more conclusive.
Actually, Sith Lords flat out doesn't have an ending. Even with stoney's restored content mod which fixes the Malachor V parts to make a lot more sense, there's still no actual ending.

Old bitch tells you some things, blah blah, then you fly away and... cut to credits. No ending at all. If you insert the crappy BS explanation for what happened to the Exile afterwards from that crappy tie-in novel and the events of certain parts of SWTOR, I guess you can figure out what she did, but it doesn't make it less of a non-ending nor does it make it less stupid.

I wasn't as disappointed with Sith Lords' lack of an ending as I was with ME3's blatantly lazy and offensively bad ending.
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Old 2012-05-08, 06:04   Link #3065
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No, I actually think Bioware will try their best with the "extended cut".

After all EA wants much, much more $$$$$$$$ and after the free DLC they want to do that with paid DLC, like "take back Omega".
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Old 2012-05-08, 07:15   Link #3066
npal
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No, I actually think Bioware will try their best with the "extended cut".

After all EA wants much, much more $$$$$$$$ and after the free DLC they want to do that with paid DLC, like "take back Omega".
EA had let things die without so much as lift a finger. They milk a franchise as is till the audience becomes disillusioned enough to drop it completely. Then they move on to milk another franchise the same way.

Bethesda's approach is way smarter right now : Create moddable games and give people the Creation Kit. Even if something is wrong, some people will fix it or create completely new content, thus providing a cushion for whatever shortcomings the game had, avoiding the "fail of legendary proportions" so far. Obsidian, too, while certainly not the best thing out there, when pressured for time, preferred to wrap the thing up quickly (obviously rather incomplete) than pull stuff out of their behinds and create an abomination. I actually had far less problems with KOTOR II ending than ME 3 ending. That, and the restoration project made it a bit smoother around the edges. The end result is I played KOTOR II around 4 times in total, while I can't bring myself to move beyond the prologue in ME3 a second time.

Which is a pity because, overall, ME3 is a better game.

I'll say it again though, if Bioware wants to go Indoctrination Theory, I'll hug the blue kid and the green beam and not let go. The worst cop-out possible is giving something the "it's all a dream" treatment with hardly any CONCRETE justification. I say concrete because the fanmade indoctrination theory feels mostly like a conspiracy theory.
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Old 2012-05-08, 07:19   Link #3067
Keroko
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Then, let's say Bioware uses the indoctrination theory, what would "concrete justification" mean for you?
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Old 2012-05-08, 07:45   Link #3068
Om Nerabdator
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Plz dont mention kotor 2 again i almost forgot about it, i just want to pretend kotor was the only one that came out.
As for ME3 ending i still cant believe they released that ending!! wtf were they thinking did they actually expect anyone to even like that!!

ps. Garrus rules the ME universe
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Old 2012-05-08, 08:26   Link #3069
npal
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Then, let's say Bioware uses the indoctrination theory, what would "concrete justification" mean for you?
They'd need to tweak the whole game by having Shepard experience inexplicable lapses of judgment that grow in magnitude near the ending. Every other indoctrinated agent is not a zombie or a sleeping beauty. They are actively going around, they are just promoting the Reapers' agenda while feeling it's their own. There was NO indoctrinated individual sleeping or hallucinating during his indoctrination. They were steadily moving towards a Reaper goal. Shepard did not, unless the Crucible itself WAS the Reapers' objective, which just can't be, as everything the Crucible can supposedly do seems to contradict the Reapers interests. Synthesis will also alter the Reapers in ways they probably have not calculated, Destruction and Control either outright destroy them or force them into actions they couldn't or didn't want to do, or they'd have already attempted making peace with the other species.

So Shepard did not promoted Reaper goals by gathering forces and having the Crucible made, which leaves him just slowly falling into indoctrination and then actually managing to wake up. The only people who actually briefly escaped indoctrination were Saren and the Illusive Man (IF they were actually able to, depending on how you play), and even then, the only thing they managed to do is shoot themselves. If we accept Shepard actually having reaper implants like both Saren and the Illusive Man, and was steadily falling into reaper control, the game showed that there's only one way out when a brief moment of sanity appears, unless there's a pretty big "destroy reapers" button just in front of him, and even then, it's debatable whether an indoctrinated person can actually move against the Reapers. I'd personally argue that if they could, both Saren and the Illusive Man would, in some way, help before being forced to die. The other clue that points in that direction is the blue kid assessment of Illusive Man, that someone indoctrinated couldn't control us. That also suggests that an indoctrinated will wouldn't be able to defeat the Reapers' will, meaning that, the Reapers could probably easily stop anyone trying to destroy them, if they had them under their control.

There is actually no point in time where Shepard becomes like either Saren or the Illusive Man. That Shepard became fully indoctrinated by getting hit by a Reaper beam is basically incomprehensible, bordering on ridiculous, as there's no evidence whatsoever that Reaper beams can actually do that, or they'be be shooting people instead of going the hard way of taking them on board or using spikes.

In short, for Shepard to become indoctrinated, he needs to accept the Reapers at some point, regardless of his goals, like everyone else. He never did that. If we assume that ending is the Reapers' attempt at indoctrination, well... it never happened to anyone else, and giving no clues about that procedure means that you can't just create it in the last minute to save an otherwise poor storytelling.
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Last edited by npal; 2012-05-08 at 14:04. Reason: whoops, typo
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Old 2012-05-08, 09:02   Link #3070
Aqua Knight
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Totally agreed. All those videos on youtube about indoctrination are pure BS/false hope.

PS

KOTOR 2 wasn't bad at all due to even darker theme and interactions with Kreia.
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Old 2012-05-08, 12:44   Link #3071
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Wow, I must be the only one who loved Kotor 2 even better than the first. T_T

The ending was extremely flawed, but the characters and dialogue were damn amazing for me. I found Atton exploding into an anti-Jedi rant and telling you how best to kill/torture Jedi or Kreia's teachings far more compelling than most RPG characters.

That being said, Bioware has no excuse for this ending. They had the time and funding that most game developers would probably drool over.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlareKnight View Post
I really thought the Indoctrination Theory was the best way to resolve this crappy ending without having to completely delete the last 10 minutes and re-write the whole thing. I don't buy for a second that Bioware planned it, but they could have easily taken advantage of it. The fans were literally handing a way to fix things to Bioware with this theory. Can call it a stretch or people wanting anything other than the ending given, but this wasn't that bad of a theory. Thought it gave a bit of substance to the third game of Shepard fighting against not only the enemies in front of him, but an enemy digging at his mind.

I had my own theory for the war assets. If you were too low then the Reapers really didn't need to completely indoctrinate Shepard. Just keep him out of the way long enough for his army to get blasted to hell. But if the forces were too strong then the Reapers couldn't afford Shepard waking up so they created false paths to keep him indoctrinated. If Shepard still chose destroy then he could wake up and help in taking out the Reapers. I know it's not a perfect answer (why not just blast Shepard to oblivion?), but thought it was a solid enough answer.

Instead I expect all we're going to get is some stupid explanation for what happened to everyone. Maybe add in some epilogue to the fate of your crew. I'd much prefer they took the Indoctrination Theory since they could at least give this game and series a more proper ending than what we're probably going to get.
The Indoctrination theory really is a fun theory that links a lot of details across the game together. In fact, it probably gives more resolution and answers than an ending without Indoctrination, but it does not fix how horrid the last 10 minutes of the game.

If we think in purely gameplay terms, players were given an interactive cutscene that ends up putting players in a room in order to hit 1 of 3 buttons. It really is uninspiring no matter which way you look at it.
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Old 2012-05-08, 13:07   Link #3072
Aqua Knight
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^

I liked KOTOR 2 maybe as much as Kotor 1 or maybe too more than kotor 1. I liked listening to HK about killing Jedi with gas or sound attacks more Even ending in KOTOR 2 we were told what would our companions do.

Nothing like that in ME 3. Guess it for yourself.
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Old 2012-05-08, 13:28   Link #3073
synaesthetic
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I preferred KOTOR2 to the first one. First game is classic Star Wars, cheese and all. Sith Lords is basically Planescape Torment without the 800,000 lines of pretentious terribad fanfiction writing (i.e. Chris Avellone got better).
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Old 2012-05-08, 13:51   Link #3074
Keroko
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Originally Posted by Nixl View Post
Wow, I must be the only one who loved Kotor 2 even better than the first. T_T

The ending was extremely flawed, but the characters and dialogue were damn amazing for me. I found Atton exploding into an anti-Jedi rant and telling you how best to kill/torture Jedi or Kreia's teachings far more compelling than most RPG characters.

That being said, Bioware has no excuse for this ending. They had the time and funding that most game developers would probably drool over.
Oh I liked KotoR II as well. Except for the bugged/unfinished quests and the ending, it was better than KotoR I on all accounts for me. Which... is the same opinion I have on ME3 come to think of it. My only complaints are the bugged quests and the ending.

Now, to reply to npal:

The Cerberus scientists aboard the near-dead reaper were definitely hallucinating. Memories were altered, they began seeing things that weren't there and indeed saw things in their dreams. And they weren't steadily moving towards the reapers goal either, not until they were fully indoctrinated. Which can be said for the crew in Arrival as well. They stuck to their guns of destroying the mass-relay to stop the reapers and resisted until Harbinger had full control.

And Shepard did accept the reapers. If you chose the control or synthesis ending.

And while the beam having telepathic properties does indeed sound ridiculous, a near-dead person having weaker mental defenses does not.

Now, I agree that no character has escaped indoctrination before. But then, we are playing Shepard here. The entire character of Shepard is doing the impossible. Stoping Saren and Sovereign? Check. Surviving a suicide mission with everyone alive? Check. Ending the genophage? Check. Peace between quarians and geth? Check.

As for destroying the reapers... have that score you gathered for uniting the galaxy actually mean something. That, along with the crucible actually being a useful weapon (the citadel is one giant mass relay + mass relays hurl objects across vast distances in short time = the largest canon in the universe?) and bam. It's not gonna be easy, but nobody said it would be.

Do I think Bioware thought of all this in advance and this is all "part of the plan?" Hell no. Not after they came out and said they were proud of that garbage they wrote. But it fits with all the knowledge we have so far, and it's an infinitely better ending than we have now, and probably still a better ending then the extended cut.
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Old 2012-05-08, 15:17   Link #3075
synaesthetic
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No, most likely the game wasn't done even after the extension to March 2012 (it was originally to be released November 2011) and EA denied them another extension. DA2's ending may have been not something people wanted but at least it was internally consistent and made sense. ME3's ending is neither.
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Old 2012-05-08, 16:10   Link #3076
Keroko
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You know what really is the biggest question that I want to see answered? Not "why won't you make a new ending?" or "what happened that made you write this?"

I just want to ask "what exactly about this ending are you so proud of?"

It has nothing that Bioware was so dreamily speaking about during development. No widely different endings depending on your choices, no conclusion, many unanswered questions, it's riddled with plotholes and completely tears some of the characters out of character.

I just want to know what it is that they claim to be proud of... because I'm not seeing it.
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Old 2012-05-08, 16:50   Link #3077
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They probably aren't proud of it, but their PR department is engaged in full-on spin mode.
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Old 2012-05-08, 16:55   Link #3078
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I agree that it is just spin.

I do not know what is going through their heads right now, I really don't.
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Old 2012-05-08, 16:58   Link #3079
Kyero Fox
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nixl View Post
I agree that it is just spin.

I do not know what is going through their heads right now, I really don't.
Their probroly thinking "If I could go back in time..."
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Old 2012-05-08, 17:00   Link #3080
synaesthetic
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I doubt EA really cares that much. They already made millions off ME3, and they'll probably make more money off DLC despite the fan backlash.
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