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Old 2012-06-28, 11:13   Link #3241
Destined_Fate
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I wouldn't blame all the writers. Casey and his best buddy blocked the rest of the writers out when they made the random starchild ending and didn't submit it to peer review.

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Originally Posted by LoweGear View Post
That might be the case for the Synthesis and Control endings, since both don't wipe out the Reapers but merely reduce them into a non-threat, which means that the Reaper threat is gone, but not the Reapers themselves. But how does the Destroy ending benefit the Reapers in any way for it to be desirable to them I wonder?




Those two bolded points are odd, since both basically paint the same picture: the Protheans lost because they were divided from each other by their sleeper agents (along with the Mass Relays being commandeered). It's heavily implied that the Protheans had an organizational equivalent to Cerberus that helped to ensure their downfall.

Also, I don't know what you're talking about the Volus, as it's quite clear that even the homeworld of Plenix is under heavy siege from the Reapers and is almost lost. Also, do remember that the Volus themselves don't maintain their own military, but rely on the Turians to provide it, and the latter are the race making the most headway against the Reapers if barely.
However the Prothean's had no way of using the mass relays at all when the Reapers came and weren't prepared and lacked any prior knowledge of them. They couldn't even gather a fleet together before the Reapers, and than cut them off, started using mass sleeper agents the Protheans managed very well and nearly one. It took the Reapers a long time to beat the Protheans even with all of their advantages. While Shepard united the Universe and had gathered a united fleet which was something the Reapers have never faced before.

Yet the Reapers couldn't beat the Volus even though they're not a fighting race.
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Old 2012-06-28, 11:44   Link #3242
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Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
However the Prothean's had no way of using the mass relays at all when the Reapers came and weren't prepared and lacked any prior knowledge of them. They couldn't even gather a fleet together before the Reapers, and than cut them off, started using mass sleeper agents the Protheans managed very well and nearly one. It took the Reapers a long time to beat the Protheans even with all of their advantages. While Shepard united the Universe and had gathered a united fleet which was something the Reapers have never faced before.

Yet the Reapers couldn't beat the Volus even though they're not a fighting race.
And there is a reason the Protheans were a lot more powerful: Javik explicitly points out that the "Protheans" are actually composed of several different assimilated races that have since united under that banner, in essence making them a single MASSIVE unified empire. The Protheans were naturally more powerful militarily and more advanced (they had portable particle beam weapons, something that the current races don't have) as a result. Of course the Protheans were going to give the Reapers a good fight despite their handicap. The only reason that the current cycle was able to do as well as they did was because of the Conduit, the Keeper reprogramming and Shepard, the former two being set up by the Protheans. If not for those, the Reapers in the current timeline would've steamrolled through the entire galaxy in no time. And even then, the united front in the current cycle can't even hope to beat the Reapers without the Crucible.

Also, I still don't get where you get the impression about the Volus from.
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Last edited by LoweGear; 2012-06-28 at 11:55.
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Old 2012-06-28, 11:47   Link #3243
james0246
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
It's not that Shepard couldn't defeat the Reapers, it's that Bioware wouldn't allow it. The Star Child is literally Bioware manifest in person and telling Shepard he can't win.
Actually, I always expected a deus ex machina to appear to allow Shepard to win. I never once thought that Shepard or the combined might of his alliance were going to win (and ME3 really didn't give me any reason to assume that they would win) unless there was some sort of Hail Mary play or a cheat of some sort. Truthfully, I expected a Independence Day inspired ending where the races came up with some sort of magical computer virus to defeat the Reapers. Or, Shepard and company would defeat Harbinger, and that would somehow defeat the Reapers. Etc. But, in a full engagement scenario without any cheats I never expected Shepard and friends to win.

(Truthfully, I do not understand how anyone really thought Shepard would win. The Races have only been preparing for a large war for 5 or so years, and considering that they only came together within the last few months of that preparation, it was very unfeasible for them to have actually been able to launch an offensive or defensive that would have destroyed all (or at least most) of the Reapers (I could expect them to save a few systems, but not the galaxy). They simply didn't have the technology or the man power to defeat the Reapers.)

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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Why they frame the story this way, I have no idea.
Now that is the real dilemma. Bioware has, essentially, created a game that you cannot win. Frankly, I do not know why they went out of there way to create such a game. While it is nice to have an interesting story, it would have also been nice to have created a believable 'positive' conclusion to the story....
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Old 2012-06-28, 12:03   Link #3244
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
(Truthfully, I do not understand how anyone really thought Shepard would win. The Races have only been preparing for a large war for 5 or so years, and considering that they only came together within the last few months of that preparation, it was very unfeasible for them to have actually been able to launch an offensive or defensive that would have destroyed all (or at least most) of the Reapers (I could expect them to save a few systems, but not the galaxy). They simply didn't have the technology or the man power to defeat the Reapers.)
See, having "impossible odds" is actually par for the course in games like these. I am not sure it is a big deal that it seems impossible for Shepard to win; the same could be said of any other number of macho Sci-Fi heroes out to save the galaxy.

So I guess my point is that what isn't unusual is the bad odds; what is unusual is that this is a rare time when the chance of victory is literally zero.
Quote:
Now that is the real dilemma. Bioware has, essentially, created a game that you cannot win. Frankly, I do not know why they went out of there way to create such a game. While it is nice to have an interesting story, it would have also been nice to have created a believable 'positive' conclusion to the story....
One effect of this inevitable failure, is one has to question the point of all the gameplay decisions one makes up to now. That one has to wonder if the universe would be better off if Shepard died on Eden Prime.

The only consolation is the rejection ending. That by refusing to comply, Shepard played the part instead as another link in the chain to Reaper's ultimate defeat by a successor civilisation. (And no, Destroy ending is not a "good" ending. It is only "good" if you think like a Reaper.)
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Old 2012-06-28, 13:08   Link #3245
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Originally Posted by LoweGear View Post
And there is a reason the Protheans were a lot more powerful: Javik explicitly points out that the "Protheans" are actually composed of several different assimilated races that have since united under that banner, in essence making them a single MASSIVE unified empire. The Protheans were naturally more powerful militarily and more advanced (they had portable particle beam weapons, something that the current races don't have) as a result. Of course the Protheans were going to give the Reapers a good fight despite their handicap. The only reason that the current cycle was able to do as well as they did was because of the Conduit, the Keeper reprogramming and Shepard, the former two being set up by the Protheans. If not for those, the Reapers in the current timeline would've steamrolled through the entire galaxy in no time. And even then, the united front in the current cycle can't even hope to beat the Reapers without the Crucible.

Also, I still don't get where you get the impression about the Volus from.
Yet their worlds were all cut off from each other and the Reapers could come at any time unopposed. They weren't united when the Reapers came, they were fragmented due to the loss of the Relays and even than they still almost won. It was their inability to convey messages across to other worlds about the sleeper agents that won the Reapers the war. The Reapers aren't even at full strength compared to the Prothean Wars and even left dead Reapers behind, their numbers aren't what they were when the Protheans(Even divided) kicked their ass. Yet for some reason the writers decided that even if you do everything right and gather up everyone possible the Reapers(Who were incompetent all throughout ME3) still win off-screen. It was Bioware's way of showing their dissatisfaction of the fan backlash over their nonsense base game ending.

The Volus have no real military yet the Reapers couldn't even take their planet even though only a paltry Turian force was there.
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Old 2012-06-28, 13:35   Link #3246
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Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
Yet their worlds were all cut off from each other and the Reapers could come at any time unopposed. They weren't united when the Reapers came, they were fragmented due to the loss of the Relays and even than they still almost won. It was their inability to convey messages across to other worlds about the sleeper agents that won the Reapers the war. The Reapers aren't even at full strength compared to the Prothean Wars and even left dead Reapers behind, their numbers aren't what they were when the Protheans(Even divided) kicked their ass. Yet for some reason the writers decided that even if you do everything right and gather up everyone possible the Reapers(Who were incompetent all throughout ME3) still win off-screen. It was Bioware's way of showing their dissatisfaction of the fan backlash over their nonsense base game ending.
They weren't united as a galactic force sure, but the Protheans was still pretty much united as an empire sans for its splinter element, which still only gave it a 1/2 vs 1 aspect vs the Reapers. Contrast with the Council Races where you have about 6+ races that couldn't agree on what to do with the Reapers, which pretty much had the same effect despite having the Mass Relays available, and it's up to Commander Shepard to get them together. And the Protheans as mentioned have more advanced military technologies than any of the current cycle races due to said unity for several hundred years, giving them a much better ability to resist when the Reapers did come.

Also, given the state of the races in the galaxy there is no logical storywriting way that can give the combined galactic fleet a chance of conventional victory against the Reapers, given how powerful a single Reaper is both on-screen and off, which has been shown from ME1 to ME3 in quite consistent fashion. The Reapers aren't invincible, but they still have the overwhelming advantage in not only numbers but tech and logistics. This is Bioware simply solidifying that fact: without the Crucible, the galaxy loses *period*, and that was well before the Extended Cut, so the implied "dissatisfaction" here is rather false. The one time that an ending actually progresses from the logic laid out by the games, and it's called illogical.

Quote:
The Volus have no real military yet the Reapers couldn't even take their planet even though only a paltry Turian force was there.
The planet was said to have been overrun by Reapers (correction, the planet is named Irune ). Hence I'm not sure where you get the idea that Irune was somehow holding its own against the Reapers. Also, with the Volus being a significant client race of the Turians, any Turian deployment on Irune would've been immense, given that the Council relies heavily on the Volus for its economy. And yet they still got overrun. The planet entry for Irune outright states that the Turian fleets there have been destroyed, and Irune is now locked in a ground war, with its vulnerable to husk attack.

The only planets you can read ingame that have held long against Reapers are either those that the Reapers pretty much ignore, send paltry amounts of forces to, or have massive Turian deployments. Everywhere else the Reapers have unequivocally triumphed over.
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Old 2012-06-28, 13:40   Link #3247
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This is Bioware simply solidifying that fact: without the Crucible, the galaxy loses *period*,
What?

Why are you still talking about the Crucible like it is some sort of trump card?

The Crucible is just where the leader of the Reapers reside. Shepard's only job in the game is to negotiate the terms of surrender. I do not see any of the three official endings as a victory, as each are to the Reaper's benefit. Kill all synthetics is following the original Reaper mandate. Fuse all life into hybrids is turning everyone into Reapers. Mind melding Shepard into the Reaper hive mind is what the Reapers wanted ever since ME2, that's why they wanted his corpse so badly.

Tell me again, how was the Crucible suppose to help Shepard win?
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Old 2012-06-28, 13:45   Link #3248
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It's quite simple. For the sake of this particular argument, my definition of "Victory" is militarily: basically, stop the Reapers from wiping out all life in the galaxy, which is pretty much how many of the characters in the game see it. Only Shepard talks to the Crucible and gets the lowdown of the Reaper's entire deal. Outside of that, the galaxy outside knows nothing of the Reaper's intentions or whatnot, and so care not for the method of how they're stopped, merely that they are.

All three are "Victories" in the sense that all of them basically stop the Reapers from killing everyone, which fulfills that particular condition, and thus can be considered "Victories" in the above definition. Everything else is just moral gravy to be discussed on forums like this one. If I was going to be killed by a man and had only a moment to spare, I don't care if it was all in his plan for me to kill him: I'll be alive because I defended myself and killed him first, his reasons be damned. It'd be said if my best friend had to be killed in the process yes, and would dampen that feel of surviving, but at the end I'd be alive, and all I can do is just live to the best of my ability for his sake as well.
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Old 2012-06-28, 13:52   Link #3249
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by LoweGear View Post
It's quite simple. For the sake of this particular argument, my definition of "Victory" is militarily: basically, stop the Reapers from wiping out all life in the galaxy, which is pretty much how many of the characters in the game see it. Only Shepard talks to the Crucible and gets the lowdown of the Reaper's entire deal. Outside of that, the galaxy outside knows nothing of the Reaper's intentions or whatnot, and so care not for the method of how they're stopped, merely that they are.

All three are "Victories" in the sense that all of them basically stop the Reapers from killing everyone, which fulfills that particular condition, and thus can be considered "Victories" in the above definition. Everything else is just moral gravy to be discussed on forums like this one.
If all you want is the Reapers to not wipe out all life in the galaxy, then you don't have to do anything at all; Reapers always made sure there are survivors to rebuild. So in that case, Shepard might as well do nothing.

However, if you actually care about defeating the Reapers for what they do, then none of the three options are victories. As I say, I find it no different from signing terms of surrender. It would be like if I pay a mobster every month so he wouldn't take my money by force; I am still being robbed, just willingly.

"Giving the Reapers what they want" is not a victory. That is the exact opposite. If you obey orders in exchange for not being killed, then you have been enslaved.
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Old 2012-06-28, 14:01   Link #3250
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
If all you want is the Reapers to not wipe out all life in the galaxy, then you don't have to do anything at all; Reapers always made sure there are survivors to rebuild. So in that case, Shepard might as well do nothing.

However, if you actually care about defeating the Reapers for what they do, then none of the three options are victories. As I say, I find it no different from signing terms of surrender. It would be like if I pay a mobster every month so he wouldn't take my money by force; I am still being robbed, just willingly.
There are survivors to rebuild, but they're not the ones who are fighting, and thus the conditions of "victory" can't apply to them. Rephrasing the above victory condition, "In a battle between the advanced sentient beings fighting against the Reapers, prevent the complete annihilation of the former.", which is what the entire battle is all about. And using the Crucible in all three available options does just that.

As to the "upkeep", the Reapers aren't mobsters demanding a monthly upkeep though. They're more like robbers who demand your money in exchange for your life - you make a one-time payment (in this case, Shepard and/or Synthetic Life), and then they'll leave you alone forever. Hell, in the case of the Control ending, the robbers can even be ordered to fix the window they just broke. Sure, I lost money, but I'm alive at least (this is actual standard advice police will give to someone in the event of a robbery).
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Old 2012-06-28, 14:21   Link #3251
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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There are survivors to rebuild, but they're not the ones who are fighting, and thus the conditions of "victory" can't apply to them. Rephrasing the above victory condition, "In a battle between the advanced sentient beings fighting against the Reapers, prevent the complete annihilation of the former.", which is what the entire battle is all about. And using the Crucible in all three available options does just that.

As to the "upkeep", the Reapers aren't mobsters demanding a monthly upkeep though. They're more like robbers who demand your money in exchange for your life - you make a one-time payment (in this case, Shepard and/or Synthetic Life), and then they'll leave you alone forever. Hell, in the case of the Control ending, the robbers can even be ordered to fix the window they just broke. Sure, I lost money, but I'm alive at least (this is actual standard advice police will give to someone in the event of a robbery).
One time payment?
Complete destruction of an innocent sentient race is not a payment. Mutation of all life in the galaxy into the Reaper's image is not a payment. Having Shepard recruited into their ranks is not a payment.

That's called LOSING. "Do anything they want as long as they don't kill us" means you lost.

The Reapers are only truly defeated in the Refusal Ending. Not what I want, but I will take it. Because it proves that the Reapers ARE wrong, and that they have no moral mandate other than superior fire power. That they are crazy and nothing they say makes sense. So to follow their orders in any way is inviting insanity.
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Old 2012-06-28, 14:36   Link #3252
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In the end not a fan of playing ball with the Reapers. Should have scrapped the whole Crucible idea and just built a few more battleships, would have been more enjoyable going all out than playing around. Agree that joining the Reapers, destroying the Geth, or abusing the galaxy on a genetic level is hardly the way I'd have written an ending. All of them are bad it's just a decision of how bad. Really it'd be hilarious if in a few years in the control ending, Shepard was overtaken by the Reapers and they went right on back to what they were doing in the first place.

Agree it's better to just give the god child the middle finger and take a seat. Better to go out guns blazing and taking out every Reaper possible to give the next generation a much easier time when it comes to winning.
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Old 2012-06-28, 15:57   Link #3253
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One other thing I don't like, they still skip over the not-so-tiny detail that the destroy ending kills all geth in the galaxy as well.
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Old 2012-06-28, 16:04   Link #3254
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One other thing I don't like, they still skip over the not-so-tiny detail that the destroy ending kills all geth in the galaxy as well.
It is obvious by now that the ME3 writers do not truly think of the Geth as sentient. The whole point is that they judged the Geth as a threat and must be killed, and the Reapers are carrying out that wish as divine mandate. A bit hard to aim for global harmony when the Gods are racist.
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Old 2012-06-28, 16:20   Link #3255
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
It's not that Shepard couldn't defeat the Reapers, it's that Bioware wouldn't allow it. The Star Child is literally Bioware manifest in person and telling Shepard he can't win.
EA can't make more franchise-milking properties if there's no antagonist. Remember, Bioware/EA said that this would be the conclusion of Shepard's story, not the last Mass Effect universe title.

I'm still really convinced that the decisions for the end of ME3 were borne from a) Bioware ran out of time and EA wouldn't allow another extension and push the release date back again, b) Casey Hudson is a colossal tool, c) Drew Karpyshyn left Bioware and the writer who replaced him is incompetent and d) EA wants to wring the ME franchise dry until no more money comes out of it.
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Old 2012-06-28, 18:15   Link #3256
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It is obvious by now that the ME3 writers do not truly think of the Geth as sentient. The whole point is that they judged the Geth as a threat and must be killed, and the Reapers are carrying out that wish as divine mandate. A bit hard to aim for global harmony when the Gods are racist.
I don't care about the reapers, I just want to know why the destroy ending keeps glossing over that. I mean, this has far-reaching implications depending on how you handled Rannoch. Either you destroy your (hard) sacrifice of the quarians in favor of the geth, or you destroy the peace these two races have finally achieved. In the later's case, it also knocks the quarians back again as the geth were helping them rebuild.

It's a far-reaching consequence that deserved at least a bit of attention. But it's not even mentioned after you make the choice. At all.
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Old 2012-06-28, 18:32   Link #3257
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I don't care about the reapers, I just want to know why the destroy ending keeps glossing over that. I mean, this has far-reaching implications depending on how you handled Rannoch. Either you destroy your (hard) sacrifice of the quarians in favor of the geth, or you destroy the peace these two races have finally achieved. In the later's case, it also knocks the quarians back again as the geth were helping them rebuild.

It's a far-reaching consequence that deserved at least a bit of attention. But it's not even mentioned after you make the choice. At all.
Actually when admiral Hacket talks about those who will not see the future, the screen flashes to Legion and EDI

and you also see EDI's name on the memorial scene
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Old 2012-06-28, 18:35   Link #3258
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It is obvious by now that the ME3 writers do not truly think of the Geth as sentient. The whole point is that they judged the Geth as a threat and must be killed, and the Reapers are carrying out that wish as divine mandate. A bit hard to aim for global harmony when the Gods are racist.
No, if anything I think Casey Hudson is really preaching that synthetics deserves rights.

Why else is synthesis such a perfect Disney ending?
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Old 2012-06-28, 19:08   Link #3259
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Actually when admiral Hacket talks about those who will not see the future, the screen flashes to Legion and EDI

and you also see EDI's name on the memorial scene
What does that have to do with anything? Legion can die(assuming he can survive at all) well before the final battle and EDI isn't a Geth. None of that actually relates to the point of glossing over the Geth as a whole race. Of course considering the glowing boy's lack of acknowledging the Geth as hurting his argument, I'm not surprised Bioware as a whole pretty much ignored that entire issue. After all this DLC was to try and appease fan anger so that we'll come back to buy more of their games.
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Old 2012-06-28, 19:26   Link #3260
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No, if anything I think Casey Hudson is really preaching that synthetics deserves rights.

Why else is synthesis such a perfect Disney ending?
Nope, what they are saying is that Synthetics do not deserve rights unless they are like us and has living bits . Essentially you solve racism by making everyone the same.
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