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Old 2013-04-09, 13:29   Link #3781
james0246
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Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
Yeah well it's there unfortunately.
Not for anyone that has never played and will never play the online content added after the fact.

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Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
Again why do the Krogan get the benefit of the doubt and not the Geth? We can say Shepard doomed the entire galaxy to being overrun with Krogan even if the Reapers were destroyed.
I'm not sure what you are trying to argue here. Yes, the Krogan could destroy the galaxy I guess. If your argument is about Shepard's faith, then I fully agree. Shepard had faith in the Krogan just the same as the Geth. Synthesis has nothing to say against that faith.

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Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
The Geth rebelled without Reaper Intereference and once they chased the Quarians away they sealed themselves off from the rest of the galaxy.
I never disputed that. The geth did not seek war with the Quarians. They would have been content to be left alone for eternity.

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Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
And the Quarians were well on their way destroying the Geth in ME3 had it not been for the Reaper's intereference.
Were they? I know they pushed the war to their home planet, but I do not recall the Quarians winning (they were only attacking, and the Geth fearing for their lives allied with the Reapers) until the moment at the very end when the Reaper is defeated and the Geth ships go silent. That's the moment you get to choose whether the Geth or the Quarians live or die.

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Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
And given the Protheans' philosophy I find it hard for them to have allowed anyone to produce synthetics and without reaper influence they were well on their way to defeating synthetics.
By the time the Protheans were at the point they could create the Crucible, they were already losing the war (as all races do), plus they didn't even have mass relays to use, and if they used the Crucible they would never be able to use the relays again.

So, I guess it is impossible to know what would happen. Sorry.

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Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
It's also demonstrated that the Reapers have had a hand in encouraging synthetics to rebel according to Javik.
Yes they did. They also had a hand in encouraging organic rebellions over the years.

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Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
So it's okay for Organics to fight Organics but it's not okay for Synthetics? Why are we putting the Geth in a completely different camp from the likes of the Krogan and the Rachni?
Who put the Geth in a separate "camp"? I have no idea what you're trying to say here.

After Synthesis, the Geth or the Krogans or Humans or whomever would want to can fight a war with whichever group they wanted to. Synthesis doesn't create peace, or even understanding. Nothing has fundamentally changed about these individuals (at least, it is never stated the rewriting of their basic genetic code has in anyway changed the fundamental nature of the individual species). All Synthesis does is erase the distinction between synthetic and organic, and more importantly, creator and created. Wars will still be fought, hate will still exist, and undoubtedly species will be still go extinct for a variety of reasons. Synthesis simply eliminates one of the core barriers within the universe.

(Admittedly, this is all just looking at synthesis on a strict surface layer. It's real importance lies solely in the hands of Shepard and his/her ability to choice the potential ending of the cycle. Realistically, what happens after Shepard's choice doesn't really matter to the core story or how we as players created our Shepards.)
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Old 2013-04-09, 13:51   Link #3782
SoldierOfDarkness
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I'm not sure what you are trying to argue here. Yes, the Krogan could destroy the galaxy I guess. If your argument is about Shepard's faith, then I fully agree. Shepard had faith in the Krogan just the same as the Geth. Synthesis has nothing to say against that faith.
Which again what was the whole point then? If you're going to argue that Shepard cannot place faith in the Geth why can he place faith in the Rachini and Krogan who have the capability of destroying the Galaxy?

Quote:
Were they? I know they pushed the war to their home planet, but I do not recall the Quarians winning (they were only attacking, and the Geth fearing for their lives allied with the Reapers) until the moment at the very end when the Reaper is defeated and the Geth ships go silent. That's the moment you get to choose whether the Geth or the Quarians live or die.
They were. As Admiral Korris and Legion told Shepard that in their last death throes (when the Quarians had pushed them back to their homeworld), the Reapers stepped in and boosted the Geth. The Geth allied with the Reapers because they didn't want to "die"

Quote:
By the time the Protheans were at the point they could create the Crucible, they were already losing the war (as all races do), plus they didn't even have mass relays to use, and if they used the Crucible they would never be able to use the relays again.

So, I guess it is impossible to know what would happen. Sorry.
I'm guessing you didn't had the From the Ashes DLC (which again contradict's Casey's defense that it would have no impact on the story whatsoever)

Javik pointed out that the Protheans encountered a synthentic race that assimilated their masters and were well on their way to dominating the Galaxy. The Protheans countered by uniting all under their flag and fighting back. Javik explains that they were close to victory but then the Reapers showed up and all was lost by that point so yes it's possible.

Quote:
Who put the Geth in a separate "camp"? I have no idea what you're trying to say here.

After Synthesis, the Geth or the Krogans or Humans or whomever would want to can fight a war with whichever group they wanted to. Synthesis doesn't create peace, or even understanding. Nothing has fundamentally changed about these individuals (at least, it is never stated the rewriting of their basic genetic code has in anyway changed the fundamental nature of the individual species). All Synthesis does is erase the distinction between synthetic and organic, and more importantly, creator and created. Wars will still be fought, hate will still exist, and undoubtedly species will be still go extinct for a variety of reasons. Synthesis simply eliminates one of the core barriers within the universe.

(Admittedly, this is all just looking at synthesis on a strict surface layer. It's real importance lies solely in the hands of Shepard and his/her ability to choice the potential ending of the cycle. Realistically, what happens after Shepard's choice doesn't really matter to the core story or how we as players created our Shepards.)
Again why do the Krogan and Rachini get special treatement and faith in that they'll hold their word and not the Geth?

If Shepard has faith in the Krogan and Rachini then the Geth should be no different.

The problem is that the Reapers continually state that it will never work despite the evidence and then presents synthesis which makes all of Shepard's efforts worthless to begin with regardless of how you choose sides between the Geth and Quarians. In fact it also cures the Genophage so there wasn't any need to have Mordin sacrifice himself!

The whole point of the journey is that after all that hard work you shouldn't be giving a button that uses space magic to fix everything right off the bat and make everything you did pointless.
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Old 2013-04-09, 14:35   Link #3783
james0246
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Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
Which again what was the whole point then? If you're going to argue that Shepard cannot place faith in the Geth why can he place faith in the Rachini and Krogan who have the capability of destroying the Galaxy?
I never once argued that Shepard (or the galaxy) couldn't have faith in the Geth. In fact, I explicitly said "I expect everyone would have been able to work out their differences in time, but that is just with the Geth." Future synthetics, and there will be future synthetics, would be the problem under Control or Destroy, but not Synthesis (depending on how far wish we to draw the abilities of Synthesis).

The only species I've left out of the peace discussion were ones Shepard never had any real contact with, consequently what they may end up doing is beyond the scope of Shepard's understanding (yet another reason to chose one of the endings the Catalyst provides).

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Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
Javik explains that they were close to victory but then the Reapers showed up and all was lost by that point so yes it's possible.
No, I meant it's impossible to know what would have happened if the Protheans had actually used the Crucible (I was actually agreeing with you that I shouldn't have made the supposition). (I.e. the relays would have been destroyed, so their "empire" would have fallen, and since there would have been few left to begin with, the various races they subjected would have risen up and soon the Protheans would have either become extinct or simply been one of many races across the unconnected galaxy).

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Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
The problem is that the Reapers continually state that it will never work despite the evidence and then presents synthesis which makes all of Shepard's efforts worthless to begin with regardless of how you choose sides between the Geth and Quarians.
Fair enough. I don't view it that way at all (mostly because I play the story as it is, and the only way to get the third option is to unite the Geth and Quarians), but we aren't budging so I guess will have to agree to disagree.

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Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
In fact it also cures the Genophage so there wasn't any need to have Mordin sacrifice himself!
How does Synthesis cure the Genophage? The Genophage would have been altered right along with the Krogans, so if it still existed then it would still work. As it is, a new Genophage could still be created after Synthesis (thankfully, my Shepard believed in the Krogan as led by Wrex, so I doubt a new genophage will be needed)...

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Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
The whole point of the journey is that after all that hard work you shouldn't be giving a button that uses space magic to fix everything right off the bat and make everything you did pointless.
Nothing I did was pointless, and everything added up to allow me to have a chance to fundamentally alter the galaxy. The subtext and themes of the series all led to this encounter, all led to this moment where I decide the fate of existence. Simply defeating the Reapers wouldn't change anything, the core dilemma, found in each game, would still exist. So, I was given the ability to somehow end that dilemma. Instead of the somewhat mundane decisions that only really alter personal preferences (sleep with Liara, sleep with Kaidan, be a biotic, be a technician, etc) or small scale dilemmas that needn't mean anything beyond a few thousand years (save the Krogans, save the Rachni, etc), I was given a true story decision that would alter the galaxy forever (most other such decisions in the game were made for you already). Do I break free of the cycle, find a way to continue it, or find a way to make it meaningless.

We fundamentally disagree on this ending, and that's fine. But, since we aren't doing anything but repeating ourselves now, I'm going to bow out.
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Old 2013-04-09, 14:56   Link #3784
npal
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Only thing Synthesis does is remove the Synthetics or Organics dilemma, nothing more, nothing less. If everything is both Synthetic and Organic, no one will start a war for this specific reason. Yes, SynthHumans might expand and destroy planets during the expansion, sure SynthKrogans might try to take over the galaxy yet again, sure SynthRachni might pose a problem eventually, or SynthGeth might want to eventually subdue the SynthQuarian. Maybe a SynthSalarian will create a new SynthOrganic race that wil rebel against them. But the dilemma of how organic life will be preserved over synthetic AI will not be there again, because all life is SynthOrganic-based. People seem to have a problem with comprehending that a SynthKrogan is a SynthOrganic lifeform AND a Krogan, the same way that a pre-Synthesis Krogan was both a lifeform AND a Krogan. Synthesis doesn't address anything else, not sure what people were expecting. But yeah, it's space magic, that much is true.

Whether such a dilemma WAS there in the first place doesn't really matter in the end, since the final outcome tries to address THAT dilemma and nothing else. The thing is that Synthesis does answer that specific dilemma better than the other options, which don't really guarantee the circle won't repeat again eventually. We can argue that it shouldn't have been there in the first place, but that's another discussion entirely.
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Old 2013-04-09, 16:10   Link #3785
SoldierOfDarkness
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
How does Synthesis cure the Genophage? The Genophage would have been altered right along with the Krogans, so if it still existed then it would still work. As it is, a new Genophage could still be created after Synthesis (thankfully, my Shepard believed in the Krogan as led by Wrex, so I doubt a new genophage will be needed)...
In the synthesis extended cutscene you see the genophage is cured even if you sabotaged it.

So yeah another case of it was useless.
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Old 2013-04-09, 16:32   Link #3786
synaesthetic
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Both of you two arguing people are forgetting the Leviathan DLC, which makes your alternate character interpretations of the Reapers invalid.

The Reapers were created by the Leviathan race as a reaction--the Leviathans used mind-control powers (which were hand-waved as quantum-entanglement communication, only organic instead of technological) to enslave other races. These races eventually advanced through technology and created a synthetic intelligence that rebelled against them.

The Leviathans, annoyed that the robots killed off their slaves, created the Intelligence (the Catalyst, Deus Ex Exposition Kid, etc) to prevent this from happening again, but under certain programming constraints. The Reapers literally cannot believe that there will ever be lasting peace between synthetic and organic life because they were programmed not to.

Solving the problem they were created to solve thus became impossible, because war and violence are never sustainable in the long term. The Intelligence was thus logic-bombed and went insane, convincing itself that every single organic species will always create synthetic intelligences once they reach a certain stage in technological development.

Obviously even an idiot knows that's not true, can't be said to be true, because nobody--not even a collective mind of hyper-advanced cyborg spaceships with absurd processing power--can predict the future. The Reapers were operating on false assumptions of a very egotistical and megalomaniacal species that created them, whose rather ugly morality also limited their possible solutions--it's not a shock that they came to a very stupid conclusion.

Then the Intelligence turned on their creators, fulfilling the false dichotomy that all synthetics will kill their creators, and birthed the first Reaper (Harbinger).

So yeah. The Reapers, like the Exposition Kid said in the ending, are only doing what they were programmed to do while also being programmed explicitly to avoid the best possible solution (brokering a peace between the life types). They aren't right. They don't believe they're right.

In fact, they're completely insane, and then we wrap right back around into Mecha-Cthulhu territory.
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Old 2013-04-09, 17:49   Link #3787
james0246
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Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
In the synthesis extended cutscene you see the genophage is cured even if you sabotaged it.

So yeah another case of it was useless.
Really? I guess I never knew, mostly because I always cured the genophage, even when I used the Control or Destroy ending.

btw, I just looked it up, the Extended cut ruins the endings even more by lowering the total points needed from 4000 down to 3100. So, its even simplier now to get the multiple endings without doing much of anything. Good I hate the EC...

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Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
The Leviathans, annoyed that the robots killed off their slaves, created the Intelligence (the Catalyst, Deus Ex Exposition Kid, etc) to prevent this from happening again, but under certain programming constraints. The Reapers literally cannot believe that there will ever be lasting peace between synthetic and organic life because they were programmed not to.
You don't really need to go back to the Leviathans to know this is true. Frankly the Leviathan DLC was only there to shine extra light on a matter that was already understood, even if the specifics were never given. (I also think it was a potential set-up for a future villain if the series continues.)

That being said, I don't fully agree with you.

Personally, this is one of the reasons I find the idea of the Synthesis ending so interesting. It is not a core ending. Destroy and Control are the main endings ot the game. They even come with a helpful colour-coding so we recognize them within the previously understood morality spectrum. Synthesis, though, is a separate ending. Shepard has to accomplish certain tasks in order for this ending to even be revealed. Those, tasks, ignoring the silly online play and the EC lowering the total points, are all centered on the general betterment of the universe through diplomacy and hard work, especially brokering peace between the Quarians and the Geth, the creator and created. If you do not accomplish these tasks, then you are left with a program that tells you destruction is only possible. But, if you accomplish these tasks, then a third option is revealed, and option that does lead to peace, or at least eliminates one form of fear.

That's not to say that I don't find the intelligence core logic flawed...

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Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
Solving the problem they were created to solve thus became impossible, because war and violence are never sustainable in the long term. The Intelligence was thus logic-bombed and went insane, convincing itself that every single organic species will always create synthetic intelligences once they reach a certain stage in technological development.
The problem is, can we really doubt it? Whether it's programing is screwed up or not, they speak as if every cycle has had synthetic life, and it generally always turns ugly. Now, if there was information concerning a cycle where there were absolutely no synthetic lifeforms created, even going so far as for it to be impossible for the cycles species to create synthetic life, then you would be completely correct. But, whether their logic is flawed or not, all the information we have leads to the same basic conclusion that a conflict will arise between creator and created. And since this is shown multiple times throughout the entire series (in various form both organic and synthetic), I think it would be remiss to simply dismiss the Catalysts findings solely because it's "parents" had shit-for-brains.

To put it another way, you can come to the correct findings/answer even if your basic logic is flawed. The specific patterns and motives the Catalyst thinks exist could, in fact, be false, and in fact be multiple minor patterns or singular incidents that just happen to continue producing a result that the fits the Catalysts flawed logic (in a realm the size of a galaxy, the likelihood of an event or sequence such as synthetic life repeating itself becomes much greater, especially when you allow for 50,000 years or more of progress). Consequently, synthetics are still a potential menace, even if some are actually good.

Then again, maybe the Reapers are simply the Lupus of the universe, in which case they still need to be taken care of somehow, and sadly brute force is still impossible.

Honestly, I do not place too much importance on the actual events, instead I look to see what the story is trying to tell us not only about Shepard or the fictional universe, but about myself and how I play the game. The ending is much more interesting than how it deals with the Reapers or synthetics in general. I do agree that the creators didn't spell out everything as much as they should or could have, this is definitely a flawed product (for whatever reason). Still, I find the ending quite beautiful, even if I do not know how much I actually like it or not.

Last edited by james0246; 2013-04-09 at 18:06.
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Old 2013-04-09, 19:18   Link #3788
ArchmageXin
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http://consumerist.com/2013/04/09/ea...year-in-a-row/

EA wins
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Old 2013-04-10, 03:14   Link #3789
synaesthetic
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Hate the EC all you want now but at least it removed most of the plot holes from the endings.

Note I said "most."
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Old 2013-05-29, 15:33   Link #3790
Xion Valkyrie
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Crucible let's you control all reapers, but doesn't have a big red button to destroy all reapers?

Anyways, I think they should have went with the original Dark Energy story line. Instead of the Star Child Sovereign should be trying to get in your head. The two choices are let the reapers destroy advanced life and let the cycle continue or use the Crucible to deactivate all the reapers. If you choose to deactivate the reapers you'll realize that Dark Energy is seeping into the galaxy and that the use of the mass effect technology is accelerating it.

This would be a great setup for future ME games where the new threat is the looming threat of the increase of Dark Energy in the galaxy. There are a lot of parallels with the issues surrounding fossil fuel usage, global warming, pollution, that we have in real life and would make great stories once you translate them into the ME universe. For example, every race has to reduce the their use of mass effect usage but some races are unhappy with the quotas they are given. Krogans for example feel they cannot rebuild their race with the little quota they have, which could lead to conflicts or even outright war.

There would be a lot of illegal activity based around getting around those quotas, which could setup new powerful criminal organizations. There could be new cults formed based around the idea of embracing Dark Energy and thus going around and setting off Mass Relays to increase the rate that Dark Energy is being introduced.

Last edited by Xion Valkyrie; 2013-05-29 at 16:28.
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Old 2013-05-30, 01:04   Link #3791
synaesthetic
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The Dark Energy plotline also depended on several different things, like Mass Effect 2's original prologue and early chapters where Shepard was rebuilt by Legion and the true geth rather than by Cerberus.

It also had a pretty big plothole in that the Reapers (according to Sovereign) created the mass relays and mass effect technology and directed technological development of new sentient species toward mass effect tech.

If they were trying to STOP the use of mass effect tech to prevent dark energy from dooming the universe... why were they encouraging the use of mass effect tech? Pretty big plothole.

Honestly I think they never should have tried to explain the Reapers. What little explanation should have left the player with the implication that the "harvests" were merely the Reapers' method of facilitating reproduction (ME2 all but screamed this with the Human-Reaper Larva and the Collector Base).

That moves the conversation from "some robots made to solve an unsolvable problem so they were logic bombed" to "eldritch abominations who are required to harvest advanced species in order to continue to exist." It takes things from the AI is a Crapshoot trope to serious Cosmic Horror territory.
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