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Old 2012-02-24, 14:42   Link #1761
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
Yeah, too bad time constraints, academic issues and whatnot didn't give me time for a full storyline context!

Honestly the "common sense" argument is ridiculous when you consider that there are far greater and more important reasons people can't abide "by common sense" when common sense itself ironically dictates that there are other priorities at hand.
I don't know what are you trying to say. By playing ME2 without ME1, you don't get the full story. The fact that you don't have time to experience the full story is unfortunate, but that certainly doesn't change the fact that ME2 has a 2 in its title.

If you don't really care to know about the plot, then fine. But it is another thing entirely to suggest that it should be encouraged that more people copy what you did intentionally.
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Old 2012-02-24, 14:49   Link #1762
biodude711
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
If you don't really care to know about the plot, then fine. But it is another thing entirely to suggest that it should be encouraged that more people copy what you did intentionally.
Meo stated that there are people in this world (like myself) who don't have the time to sit down for a couple of hours every day to play all the games. He/she did not, in any way, shape or form, suggest that people should be encouraged to copy what he/she does.

As Meo explicitly stated:
Quote:
There are those of us who don't have the time, money or whatever else to be an original fan or whatever the term is. Some of us have to jump on the ship mid voyage and I commend Bioware for at least trying to give new players a fighting chance with the established fanbase. I don't why giving others said chance angers some people, but as someone who has entered a story midway in other games, I understand how these new players feel and the alienation/ostracizing they receive from older fans.
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Old 2012-02-24, 14:51   Link #1763
MeoTwister5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
I don't know what are you trying to say. By playing ME2 without ME1, you don't get the full story. The fact that you don't have time to experience the full story is unfortunate, but that certainly doesn't change the fact that ME2 has a 2 in its title.

If you don't really care to know about the plot, then fine. But it is another thing entirely to suggest that it should be encouraged that more people copy what you did intentionally.
What I'm trying to say is that not EVERYONE who wants to play game(s) have the time or resources to start from the beginning. It doesn't make sense from a storytelling POV, true, but that's a fact coming from different reasons. Just because it doesn't make a whole lot of sense doesn't mean others have to be excluded. Just because you can't or haven't played the predecessors shouldn't exclude you from the experience. The capacity to introduce new players into the story is very limited and probably insufficient, but some attempt is better than not at all.

And what peeves me more is that it really shouldn't matter what Bioware does to ease in new players to older players because older fans already have the advantage. Newer players who want to level the field but can't get the older games will have to work harder. Is there something inherently wrong in this? Because I see complaints in other forums about Bioware's attempts to give new players a fighting chance, when it should be moot to older players.
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Old 2012-02-24, 14:58   Link #1764
SoldierOfDarkness
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The issue isn't about playing ME1 or ME2.

The issue at hand is that this character is big as he's again related to one of the main reasons why the Reapers have failed to wipe out the galaxy as they have before.

I mean he himself should be part of the key to defeating the Reapers or finding their weakness.

So in other words it's apalling that Bioware didn't even include him in the main storyline if he's irrelevant. Yes the race has been wiped out but they still contributed to the story in ME1 and ME2.
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Old 2012-02-24, 15:12   Link #1765
MeoTwister5
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I wasn't arguing about the DLC character. I was arguing the insinuation that ME1 and ME2 would be a requirement for context, when people who can't or haven't played the game have other options to gain said context.

As for the DLC character, I won't comment on it since I need to play his part the game to see just how much got cut for him.
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Old 2012-02-24, 15:20   Link #1766
Nixl
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This is a tough question. I think you can get the basic context of the ME universe without playing ME1 or ME2 even. Protheans on the other hand are a little harder to derive context from without Mass Effect 1 in my opinion. That is not to say one cannot understand without playing ME1, but there was simply a lot of information and experiences, both large and small, about the Protheans in ME1 that I do not think could be derived from ME2 or even ME3.

Again, tough question.
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Old 2012-02-24, 15:30   Link #1767
MeoTwister5
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To be fair, much of the Prothean exposition came in a huge chunk near the end of ME1 on Ilos, so it's not like you really had to piece them together through the entirety of the game.
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Old 2012-02-24, 15:36   Link #1768
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
Yeah, too bad time constraints, academic issues and whatnot didn't give me time for a full storyline context!
Why not, like, just wait until you finish the first game before starting the second? It's not as though it's going to go anywhere. You can spend a few months playing a single game if you don't have time for long sessions.

I really don't see the problem here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
Some of us have to jump on the ship mid voyage and I commend Bioware for at least trying to give new players a fighting chance with the established fanbase.
The problem is that the quality of the narrative is sacrificed for the sake of those new players, who appear to be the target audience for ME3.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
I mean he himself should be part of the key to defeating the Reapers or finding their weakness.
But he's clearly not. It's really disgusting that one of the most important parts of the whole Reaper backstory is relegated to optional content, which EA knows people will buy BECAUSE Protheans are supposed to be so important.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
Is there something inherently wrong in this? Because I see complaints in other forums about Bioware's attempts to give new players a fighting chance, when it should be moot to older players.
Again, imagine if Return of the King was designed so that you didn't have to see the first two LOTR movies. That's what this is about.
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Old 2012-02-24, 15:36   Link #1769
SoldierOfDarkness
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I only played ME2 and not ME1 as I'm not that interested in older games actually. However though a lot of the things happening was because of the Protheans.

IMO it's in the company's best interests to get more people (newer ones who buy MASS effect 3 ) to buy ME2 and ME1 later on if they want to get the rest of the story.

Quote:
As for the DLC character, I won't comment on it since I need to play his part the game to see just how much got cut for him.
I'm pretty sure he'll be some guy that was cleaning the pool while his whole race was being exterminated and got stuck in stasis when Shepard comes along and picks him up.

So in other words he knows jack about what's going on which like I said is a huge insult to the race that he wouldn't be able to give a last hurrah by hurling the final blow to the Reapers for the crimes they've committed.

And something that bugs me. How is it that a separate company can create this "Squad member" and expect him to interact with the rest of the team? The reason why Deus Ex Human Revolutions' bosses were so bad was because the company doing it weren't aware of what the actual game was about so there was some disconnect there.
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Old 2012-02-24, 15:42   Link #1770
Terrestrial Dream
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Originally Posted by Nixl View Post

Thank you for the response sir. To a degree, his level of importance is subjective. However, compared to Katsumi I would argue that his relevance to the immediate plot (Reaper invasion) is by far the most relevant. When I read the spoiler I instantly thought, for a game that is focused around the apocalypse and stopping a Reaper invasion, what insight would matter the most at that moment? Here we have a character with just that, insight into the reaper tactics and strategy, cut from the game and resold as bonus content for $10. Even if his relevance proves very little in the long run, here is an opportunity for a completely new and and unique perspective on-board the Normandy.

How Bioware does not see him as anything more than a means to milk the fanbase is beyond me at the moment. How could they not believe this would be an amazing, if not fun, development for their fanbase?

I guess what I am getting at is that Bioware states they want to make the best game possible. I think they are full of shit now.

edit: I forgot to add one thing Terrestrial Dream, this character is day 1 DLC, meaning he is finished, just cut away from the main game. If I remember correctly Katsumi was not day 1 DLC. Let me go check my facts, because I did not buy any ME2 DLC, brb.

edit 2: One of the Bioware devs defended the DLC by saying, "the [censored lol] is optional content that is certainly designed to appeal to long-time fans." What the #$%^. Is that suppose to mean that the majority of buyers are not long time fans and thus are not privy to this story?
I am going to agree that by releasing him as dlc they are wasting potential of the character. And despite what Bioware said it is bit iffy that he was in leak and the fact that the game has been delayed. I am still going to get the game, but the way Bioware handled the dlc was not very good.
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Old 2012-02-24, 15:44   Link #1771
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
And something that bugs me. How is it that a separate company can create this "Squad member" and expect him to interact with the rest of the team?
They're lying? The character was in the script leaks last year, we've known about him for ages.
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Old 2012-02-24, 15:44   Link #1772
com_gwp
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DLC argument in the thread? Honestly, the point is moot since this game will still sell millions regardless, and the people who really care about it will buy it in the end, because the value of the property to us is worth more than the price of entry.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/insertco...-damn-fault-2/

^This guy sums up my thoughts nicely. DLCs are here to stay and they definitely won't go away. What you want to do is up to yourself as a consumer. If you think it's against your consumer rights, by all mean, boycott. But don't expect an significant change anytime soon. The people complaining are only vocal minority at this point, and EA is looking at the masses to sell the game, not them. Harsh, but that's what a business is like.
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Old 2012-02-24, 16:50   Link #1773
ZeroForever
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we didn't say it wasn't here to stay, it's been established that DLC will be standard for some time now given how many people are willing to pay for repacked map packs.

what I'm saying is that making this character pay for isn't ethically consistent with there past behavior and it'll only get worse with bigger money grabs all the time unless some moneytary protest is held.

What people have been saying essentially reiterates my point in that the developer cares more about some extra cash for shareholders then they do about long time fans.
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Old 2012-02-24, 17:19   Link #1774
MeoTwister5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Why not, like, just wait until you finish the first game before starting the second? It's not as though it's going to go anywhere. You can spend a few months playing a single game if you don't have time for long sessions.

I really don't see the problem here.



The problem is that the quality of the narrative is sacrificed for the sake of those new players, who appear to be the target audience for ME3.



But he's clearly not. It's really disgusting that one of the most important parts of the whole Reaper backstory is relegated to optional content, which EA knows people will buy BECAUSE Protheans are supposed to be so important.



Again, imagine if Return of the King was designed so that you didn't have to see the first two LOTR movies. That's what this is about.
Dude like I said, time constraints. Time availability and management isn't the same for everyone. That can work for some, not for others. I work 36 hour shifts every three freaking days for a year now.

As for quality of narrative, would you prefer Bioware choose old players over new players or the other way around? I'd assume you're speaking as an old player, but put yourself in the shoes of a new one. From what I see Bioware is trying to find the middle ground because they know new players will be coming. It's only when the game comes out can we see if their gamble pays off. It's pointless from a business standpoint for them to flip off potential new customers.

Consider that they tried it somehow with ME2, and not you didn't hear the internet rage everywhere. Why start now?
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Old 2012-02-24, 17:23   Link #1775
FlareKnight
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Quote:
Originally Posted by com_gwp View Post
DLC argument in the thread? Honestly, the point is moot since this game will still sell millions regardless, and the people who really care about it will buy it in the end, because the value of the property to us is worth more than the price of entry.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/insertco...-damn-fault-2/

^This guy sums up my thoughts nicely. DLCs are here to stay and they definitely won't go away. What you want to do is up to yourself as a consumer. If you think it's against your consumer rights, by all mean, boycott. But don't expect an significant change anytime soon. The people complaining are only vocal minority at this point, and EA is looking at the masses to sell the game, not them. Harsh, but that's what a business is like.
Well good job writing all that to pretty much say the obvious. It's not like anyone didn't already know the game would sell or that DLC isn't going anywhere. Also, you do realize that DLC being here to stay by itself already says that it's not going away right? I'd actually like to see DLC stay and yet go away .

Too bad things are going down this road. Companies will keep pushing things and really stop caring what their reputation might be. On the positive so many good games have already come out. Can just say "screw it" to the new stuff and just play what's already owned and free .
Quote:
Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
Dude like I said, time constraints. Time availability and management isn't the same for everyone. That can work for some, not for others. I work 36 hour shifts every three freaking days for a year now.
To be fair this is still kind of dancing around the question. Time constraints doesn't really explain starting in the middle of a saga. If you say you want to see the end sooner then that's one reason to start in the middle. The key question is why people would sacrifice most of the story just to see the end. It's like opening a book, reading the last chapter, and then being done. Plenty aren't going to get why someone would bother.
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Old 2012-02-24, 17:45   Link #1776
MeoTwister5
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I'm pretty sure I already said that starting in the middle of the saga is something by circumstance and not by choice. Not everyone was there when the story began, and not everyone can start from the starting line. Some have to begin in the middle of the war. Have to, not want to.

Not everyone has the option others have. If your current circumstance force you to start midway and supplement yourself with outside information, and you're willing to accept that, then so be it. The situation isn't the same for everyone and you can't very well insist that on "doing this" or "doing that" in order to get with the program like someone who's been there from day 1. I wouldn't want to exclude people from the experience just because they couldn't be there like we were, and in fact I too was never there from day 1 to begin with. I caught up with everyone else, and some won't be able to do it like I was.

Honestly people need to wrap their head around the fact that there will always be people who will end up jumping midway for one reason or another, and this isn't an excuse to exclude them from some way of easing them in. Gaming is supposed to be fun for all and not some exclusive club dividing "teh elitez" from "teh n00bs".
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Old 2012-02-24, 17:57   Link #1777
Kyero Fox
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Haha oh man this is priceless XD

http://awkwardzombie.com/

who else agree's about this? XD I'm starting to think she was put in this game as a chance for mary sue haters to have a little fun.
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Old 2012-02-24, 20:17   Link #1778
com_gwp
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlareKnight View Post
Well good job writing all that to pretty much say the obvious. It's not like anyone didn't already know the game would sell or that DLC isn't going anywhere. Also, you do realize that DLC being here to stay by itself already says that it's not going away right? I'd actually like to see DLC stay and yet go away .
It's my pleasure to be Mr Obvious and perform this community service.

I just don't get why we must have this same debate when the points are stated so many times before already, same with the Origin/DRM one. Case in point, if you were following BF3, you would remember the HUGE outcry over Origin and what basically amounted to unlocked guns which were presumed to have an edge over the competition but turned out to be pretty damn useless in the end.
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Old 2012-02-24, 22:04   Link #1779
Waven
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyero Fox View Post
Haha oh man this is priceless XD

http://awkwardzombie.com/

who else agree's about this? XD I'm starting to think she was put in this game as a chance for mary sue haters to have a little fun.
Well, it speaks volumes that it's a femshep that would do this ... *run*

*comes back* ... ok, so is it wrong to make fun of femshep followers even though during my several playthroughs i've never played a femshep despite having heard many times that it's the only way to go voice acting wise?


Quote:
Originally Posted by com_gwp View Post
It's my pleasure to be Mr Obvious and perform this community service.

I just don't get why we must have this same debate when the points are stated so many times before already, same with the Origin/DRM one. Case in point, if you were following BF3, you would remember the HUGE outcry over Origin and what basically amounted to unlocked guns which were presumed to have an edge over the competition but turned out to be pretty damn useless in the end.
Why won't you let people argue about what they want? Just because as an individual you can't change a specific state doesn't mean you stay quiet and can't talk about it, even if it doesn't have a direct result.

What you're describing, DLC not vanishing anytime soon, may be right but point is you basically told people to shut up about it just because there is no change to be made.

This is a forum so gimme a break...

Last edited by Waven; 2012-02-24 at 22:16.
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Old 2012-02-24, 22:32   Link #1780
Nixl
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I understand what you are saying com_gwp, but at the same time I would say that this is a very new and unwelcomed step for DLC and Bioware. For the possibility that devs are taking out important characters and aspects from the gameplay and selling them as bonus is not a positive concept. Devs have sold bonus material such as armor and guns, but to take out something that seems important the gameplay experience seems to be going to far.

Worse of all is perhaps Bioware's "logic" for the change. That only old time fans would appreciate this and thus they took it out of the game only to be resold for $10. How can they say who are long time fans and that only long time fans would appreciate this specific DLC?

Then they say it was done by a completely different team and development cycle, but the leaked beta shows that statement to be untrue.
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