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Old 2011-01-11, 14:37   Link #181
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeKeR View Post
no wonder why russians were trained to hold the AK47 with not using the handguard...

also, im getting really annoyed by those *ehem* CoD boyz saying that a foregrip on a rifle looks fugly, especially on AR variants... seriously, a vertical foregrip makes your stabilization even better so dont you guys go and say:

"man vertical foregrip looks ugly! put in a nade launcher so it will be cool!"

"an SMG that has a vertical grip? NO. it really cramps my style"

"a shotgun with a foregrip is fail."

FYI, for a rifle, a nade launcher attachment adds WEIGHT to the gun itself (yeah, faced an M16A2 with a nade launcher and it was a bit heavy). and for an SMG, why dont you try firing a UMP or Kriss Super V\TDI Vector without its damn foregrip and see that for yourself.

okay... rage time over
Yes, most of the nerds playing CoD (or any other FPS) wouldn't know which end of a gun is the business end much less how the weapon actually behaves with various configurations. I try to play with the chat volume turned off so I'm not tempted to start calling people idiots.

What is really good though is jumping in with a group of war vets who have actually conducted operations... it is just beautiful to watch and listen to.
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Old 2011-01-11, 15:44   Link #182
Renegade334
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeKeR View Post
firing a UMP or Kriss Super V\TDI Vector without its damn foregrip and see that for yourself.
Not to be a nag, but technically the Kriss wouldn't have such a bad time placing bullets in a tight ring on the target even without a tactical foregrip. The bolt carrier group is actually deflected downwards during the extraction process thanks to curved rail guides, which help decrease the amount of muzzle rifle and pressure on the butt stock. The vertical foregrip is a welcome bonus, of course, but I've watched a lot of shooters use the Kriss (and other rifles) with the free hand wrapped around the magazine well rather than around the foregrip itself. The asymmetrical recoil concept, if my memory doesn't betray me, was invented by the Soviets for use in competition carbines - and it was so effective that when they tried to use such weapons for the winter olympics (biathlon), the weapons were immediately banned so as to not give the shooter an unfair advantage.

Now, one could argue that the well can be considered as a makeshift foregrip, but, my point revolved around the asymmetrical recoil feature...


As for the CoD:MW fanboys, they are a bleeding cancer upon the firearm community - the diarrhea of absolutely useless comments and technical errors they dish out on outlets like YouTube is so chock-full of immaturity and ignorance you've got to wonder how in-game content almost turned into Word of God. I mean, I can understand if someone learns more about Italian renaissance by playing Assassin's Creed 2 (though there are some tacit liberties taken with the storytelling, for obvious purposes), but, Jesus... Honestly. CoD - the best weapon encyclopedia of the world? Oh God.

Aesthetics dictating efficiency? Heresy. Blasphemy. A weapon doesn't have to be pretty in order to be effective.
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Last edited by Renegade334; 2011-01-11 at 15:56.
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Old 2011-01-11, 17:13   Link #183
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Unfortunately, we have a strict policy about gun ownership here, therefore, I've only used guns in games. However I'd never, ever try to act smart when it comes to weapons. It's just not right to talk about something you've only done in games.
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Old 2011-01-11, 17:53   Link #184
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Knowing a bit about firearms made all the inaccuracies in the COD series (black-ops mainly) all the more glaring.

The only recent game to get a close representation of the guns and gear used by us forces was the newest Medal of honor.

It wasn't an amazing game but picking up krylon'd cqbr's, MK46's and Mk14 mod-0's always made me giggle with glee.
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Old 2011-01-11, 20:36   Link #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Knowing a bit about firearms made all the inaccuracies in the COD series (black-ops mainly) all the more glaring.

The only recent game to get a close representation of the guns and gear used by us forces was the newest Medal of honor.

It wasn't an amazing game but picking up krylon'd cqbr's, MK46's and Mk14 mod-0's always made me giggle with glee.
well in CoD BO is:

the STANAG (it will be when NATO sees it) magazine in teh M16 carried only 20 ROUNDS, not 30...
even tho it still has the triangular handguard, i still feel something is off in the vietnam war era M16... is it usually full auto and not burst?

wanst the Colt Commando (ehem CAR15 you CoD nerds) classed as an SMG?

at least they got one thing right in the AK47... teh silencer

i like the original FAMAS prototype... the fugly handguard is nowhere in sight...
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Old 2011-01-11, 20:50   Link #186
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In CoD, you could 360 no-scope holding onto a nearly 30-pound M82.
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Old 2011-01-11, 21:00   Link #187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asuras View Post
In CoD, you could 360 no-scope holding onto a nearly 30-pound M82.
and actually 'RUN' with it while still pointing the gun afterwards... seriously...

theres a reason why the barrett has a bipod people...

EDITED: sorry, wrong area....
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Old 2011-01-11, 21:28   Link #188
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I'd like to own a gun someday but I find the reasons and security to be obscuring. I would want to have it in a safe spot so kids don't get to it but that would mean it might not be at hand in case an emergency.
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Old 2011-01-11, 22:22   Link #189
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Originally Posted by Alchemist007 View Post
I'd like to own a gun someday but I find the reasons and security to be obscuring. I would want to have it in a safe spot so kids don't get to it but that would mean it might not be at hand in case an emergency.
In which case you'll need to invest in a small lock box or safe that uses either a key or a code that will keep the gun handy but out of reach.
And when your little ones get older, enrole them in a Hunter's Safety course. There they will learn all about gun safety and responsible handling of firearms! Remember kids are curious, and you must "defang the snake" so to speak, let them shoot one bullet at a bottle of water and as it explodes tell them "this is what a bullet can do, so don't point a gun at anything you you don't intend to destroy!"
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Old 2011-01-11, 22:47   Link #190
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Originally Posted by ZeKeR View Post
no wonder why russians were trained to hold the AK47 with not using the handguard...
I only fired an AK-47 at an army open-house years ago, and man that was a fucking damn loud and uncomfortable weapon - the buttstock always seem to be like a sledgehammer chipping away at your shoulder with every round fired.

But yeah, it is a magazine-well-to-muzzle length issue. The shorter it is, the closer you can position your hand to the mag-well for a quick tactical reload.

Quote:
"man vertical foregrip looks ugly! put in a nade launcher so it will be cool!".............

FYI, for a rifle, a nade launcher attachment adds WEIGHT to the gun itself (yeah, faced an M16A2 with a nade launcher and it was a bit heavy).
Being an ex-MG-gunner, I would say the M16/M203 isn't heavy, compared to a FN-MAG. It just gets tad uncomfortable when you are trying to launch a grenade through the leaf sight, you have to reach forward to the GL trigger, and the firing of the launcher actually kicks hard.

Quote:
"an SMG that has a vertical grip? NO. it really cramps my style"

and for an SMG, why dont you try firing a UMP or Kriss Super V\TDI Vector without its damn foregrip and see that for yourself.
Never fired any other SMG other than an MP5 and P90. Not alot of recoil to worry about anyway.

Quote:
"a shotgun with a foregrip is fail."
Never fired any other than a M1014 with training rounds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renegade334 View Post
Aesthetics dictating efficiency? Heresy. Blasphemy. A weapon doesn't have to be pretty in order to be effective.
Tell that to those weapon designers who build bullpup rifles (no, the P90 is fine. In fact I think it is a great weapon). They will tell you all the bullshit about pretty barrel length and sexy shortened rifles and cool-looking plastic magazines....then dodge questions about :

1. Chamber explosion safety mechanisms
2. Ambidexterity issues
3. Attaching UGLs
4. Prone-down firing stances
5. Extended magazines (drum mags included)
6. Ease of access to firing switch selector
7. Bayonet and bayonet fighting

If there is a war, I would gladly dump my service rifle for an enemy firearm, then claim that it was broken in combat. Their argument always lop on the side of accuracy, but in reality, a 5.56mm will never kill a person outright unless it is shot through vitals. A scope or recoil mechanisms only increase chances of hitting something, they do not guarantee an increase in outright kills.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MakubeX2 View Post
"When you know it's your turn to die, the last thing you do is, you save that gun by hurling it as far away from you as you can."

So a weapon is sometime more valuable then a common soldier's life.

Agree/Disagree ?
A NSF costs $400 per month. A SAR-21 costs $1100 to build, and a monthly maintenance costing close to $300 per year. An NSF can be medically downgraded and become useless, while the rifle can change hands into another recruit's.

So yeah, save the rifle, screw the soldier.
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Last edited by SaintessHeart; 2011-01-11 at 23:21.
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Old 2011-01-22, 14:20   Link #191
ZeKeR
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^7.62x39 kicks hard, but the 7.62x51 hurts (yeah, M14 and M60E4 were fucking bitches that wont obey you in full auto. M60 submitted when i asked for a foregrip). the AK47 i used had a vertical grip so it made my aim a little bit easier.

i can understand why you can say the FN MAG is damn heavy... used it, and yes, couldnt even aim down, just hip fire the thing. well its that or the M1919 that had much lulz

come to think of it, G36 was wonderful... i came at the mere deadeye accuracy it did... so WHY DIDNT H&K MAKE IT ADOPT FOR STANAG?!?!?! SAME GOES FOR SiG's SG550!!!

inb4 AG36 is a copy of M320...
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Old 2011-01-23, 09:22   Link #192
JMvS
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Originally Posted by ZeKeR View Post
^7.62x39 kicks hard, but the 7.62x51 hurts (yeah, M14 and M60E4 were fucking bitches that wont obey you in full auto. M60 submitted when i asked for a foregrip). the AK47 i used had a vertical grip so it made my aim a little bit easier.

i can understand why you can say the FN MAG is damn heavy... used it, and yes, couldnt even aim down, just hip fire the thing. well its that or the M1919 that had much lulz

come to think of it, G36 was wonderful... i came at the mere deadeye accuracy it did... so WHY DIDNT H&K MAKE IT ADOPT FOR STANAG?!?!?! SAME GOES FOR SiG's SG550!!!

inb4 AG36 is a copy of M320...
IIRC, there's a version of the SIG SG550, designed for the American market, which is STANAG (and Picatinny) compatible: the SIG SG556



Well of course at the end it's substantially different from the polished SG550 design. BTW, :love the SG552 Kommando.
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Old 2011-01-23, 12:02   Link #193
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Originally Posted by JMvS View Post
IIRC, there's a version of the SIG SG550, designed for the American market, which is STANAG (and Picatinny) compatible: the SIG SG556

<snip>
I thought there is a pudding-youth party voting outright to dismantle the Swiss military. So the SIG rifles are gonna be the last of their kind.

Btw, I like the SIG P226 pistol. Though it is a tad big for my hands and the recoil is much more than a .22 revolver.

Quote:
Well of course at the end it's substantially different from the polished SG550 design. BTW, :love the SG552 Kommando.
I thought the Swiss military only issue the Kommando to the QRF battalions and special forces.
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Old 2011-01-23, 16:52   Link #194
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Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
I thought there is a pudding-youth party voting outright to dismantle the Swiss military. So the SIG rifles are gonna be the last of their kind.
Probably not, since SIG also has a long history of developing weapons for the international market.

But yeah, for a long time there has been an association and parties to ask for the dismantling of the military, and the peoples answered no.

But of course, following these, the Higher Ups "interpreted" the proportion of Yea, and made two reforms of the Army, transforming it to be more NATO compatible, read: with projection capabilities (which is borderline TREASON).

Now of course, most peoples wonder what is the Army's function, as it is unsufficiently funded, peoples blindingly believe that Europe is at peace forever, and boot camp has more or less become an expensive Summer Camp. It still has a strong social function, but try to explain that to the feminine half of the electorate, and to all the leftists who did their best to avoid it.

In a few weeks we are to vote on the latest Initiative asking for tougher gun control. Proponents hope it will reduce suicides and family dramas (), although service weapons are only involved in a small percentage of these.

Quote:
I thought the Swiss military only issue the Kommando to the QRF battalions and special forces.
Yes of course, I was just commenting on it's gorgeous look. I have not yet handled one, but Army buddies have reported to me that it is a also a pleasure to use.
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Old 2011-01-23, 17:09   Link #195
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thought there is a pudding-youth party voting outright to dismantle the Swiss military. So the SIG rifles are gonna be the last of their kind.
They aren't voting to outright dismantle the Swiss Army, just to stop the forced enlistment law. Before, all males over 18 where required to go to basic training and own a service rifle in their home, along with a lot of ammunition. So now they want to remove this requirement to have to be in active service at all times, and as far as I know, they did.

Quote:
i still feel something is off in the vietnam war era M16... is it usually full auto and not burst
It was almost always full auto, in the heat of battle rather undertrained troops would spray bullets everywhere, prompting the switch to burst. The M16A3 was also full auto, with the M16A4 being burst only. Accuracy over amount of bullets is the theory.

Quote:
^7.62x39 kicks hard, but the 7.62x51 hurts
I have only fired 7.62x39 out of an SKS, and it wasn't bad at all. Somewhat like a .22, really, because the weight of the rifle counters the recoil. Out of an AK though would be worse. And yeah, 7.62x51 (.308) does hurt, although the SCAR-H is said not to have that much recoil, but I'm not sure.
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Old 2011-01-23, 19:23   Link #196
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Originally Posted by RandySyler View Post
They aren't voting to outright dismantle the Swiss Army, just to stop the forced enlistment law. Before, all males over 18 where required to go to basic training and own a service rifle in their home, along with a lot of ammunition. So now they want to remove this requirement to have to be in active service at all times, and as far as I know, they did.
You are misinformed, the 1989 and 2001 Initiatives that were rejected called for the total suppression of the Army, and even the proponent's name is a giveaway: Group for a Switzerland without an Army.

The fact that a "considerable" 35.6% approved the first Referendum was used to implement the Armée95 and ArméeXXI reforms.

The first put an end to the ancient Age Classes, especially the Landsturm (Reserve until age 50, deployed only in time of War).
The second drastically reformed formation: everyone would complete whole boot camp, before being selected to become NCO, do the whole formation and supplementary service, and after all that, if selected, undergo Commanding Officer formation and supplementary service, and again one more round at the Academy for Superior Officers (with of course supplementary service), also, Pilot Candidate had to be Lieutenants before starting Pilot School). Now, peoples only share the first 7 weeks of boot camp, resulting in near useless 19 years Lieutenant (per experience, and per the accounts of all the NCO I've discussed with), and Higher Ups are no longer fellow Militia but Professionals.

Service is still mandatory for all able bodied men, although it can be replaced with a longer Civilian service (recently it has proven too popular, as it has been made too easy compared to barrack life). Unable men have to pay an extra 3% income tax and still serve in the Civil Protection, servicing Fallout Shelters and the like.

While total service time has been gradually shortened, as the serving period was also constricted, the result is that military service is now more difficult to accommodate with civilian life: there are now 3 yearly booth camps instead of 2, said booth camp are much longer (before Uni students could fit it in a summer holiday), and the periodical “refresher courses” are now 3 weeks every year instead of 2 week every two years.

Also, the modernization of the Army and its objectives on NATO compatibility guidelines resulted in a useless and unusable Projection Tool, with some still undergoing Soul-searching. There has been several attempts by politicians to participate in foreign deployments and other "peacekeeping" missions, but Armed Intervention is highly illegal and unpopular, the only presently allowed missions are diplomatic or infrastructure assistance.



We still have our own rifle at home, with which we also have to practice once a year in civilian context. The issued ammo was only recalled a few years ago (we only had about 50 rounds). But on February we will have to vote on an Initiative calling for tougher Gun Regulations (and especially suppressing the tradition of keeping the personal weapon at home).
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Old 2011-01-23, 20:49   Link #197
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Oh, ok thanks for the clarification.
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Old 2011-01-23, 22:06   Link #198
ZeKeR
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RandySyler View Post
They aren't voting to outright dismantle the Swiss Army, just to stop the forced enlistment law. Before, all males over 18 where required to go to basic training and own a service rifle in their home, along with a lot of ammunition. So now they want to remove this requirement to have to be in active service at all times, and as far as I know, they did.



It was almost always full auto, in the heat of battle rather undertrained troops would spray bullets everywhere, prompting the switch to burst. The M16A3 was also full auto, with the M16A4 being burst only. Accuracy over amount of bullets is the theory.



I have only fired 7.62x39 out of an SKS, and it wasn't bad at all. Somewhat like a .22, really, because the weight of the rifle counters the recoil. Out of an AK though would be worse. And yeah, 7.62x51 (.308) does hurt, although the SCAR-H is said not to have that much recoil, but I'm not sure.
you dun know how it is when the burly AK fires the 7.62x39... loud, and very wild... inb4 FN FAL full auto that fires the 7.62NATO behaves like a spoiled bitch
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Old 2011-02-24, 23:25   Link #199
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Bringing this baby back from the dead. Just picked up my new toy, a Glock 27 from one of the local gun ships. Had to wait 10 days for California's stupid waiting period, but she's home!



She comes in at a heavy 1.35 lbs empty. Half the weight of my Springfield 1911. Now to pick up some more mags and pinky extensions so she fits my hand better.
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Old 2011-02-25, 00:31   Link #200
SaintessHeart
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Originally Posted by JMvS View Post
Probably not, since SIG also has a long history of developing weapons for the international market.

But yeah, for a long time there has been an association and parties to ask for the dismantling of the military, and the peoples answered no.

But of course, following these, the Higher Ups "interpreted" the proportion of Yea, and made two reforms of the Army, transforming it to be more NATO compatible, read: with projection capabilities (which is borderline TREASON).

Now of course, most peoples wonder what is the Army's function, as it is unsufficiently funded, peoples blindingly believe that Europe is at peace forever, and boot camp has more or less become an expensive Summer Camp. It still has a strong social function, but try to explain that to the feminine half of the electorate, and to all the leftists who did their best to avoid it.

In a few weeks we are to vote on the latest Initiative asking for tougher gun control. Proponents hope it will reduce suicides and family dramas (), although service weapons are only involved in a small percentage of these.
If the Swiss lose their defence force, then how are they going to defend against extremists and foreign insurgents?

The Muslim extremists are having their head up their arses over the minaret ban, and there might possibly be an attack at Geneva in the near future once they have gathered enough geographical intelligence. Dismantling the army is like taking off all body armor and running into a no-man's land naked. It isn't just stupid, it is retarded.

I had training against asymmetric warfare during my army days. It is all shit and hell and nobody likes it, but at least I have a general idea how to wipe the floor with a terrorist's face instead of panicking and empty an entire mag into empty space.

Quote:
Yes of course, I was just commenting on it's gorgeous look. I have not yet handled one, but Army buddies have reported to me that it is a also a pleasure to use.
Dammit. You Swiss boys have it good. We are stuck with an overweight bullshitpup that has problems with melting plastic magazines and broken firing pins - fail AUG + Tavor hybrid is fail.

I wish they would convert our old M16s into CAR-15s instead of building a new rifle. I love Mikos (my nickname for CAR-15s) - they aren't as short, but they aren't heavy and unwieldy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinstrife View Post
Bringing this baby back from the dead. Just picked up my new toy, a Glock 27 from one of the local gun ships. Had to wait 10 days for California's stupid waiting period, but she's home!

<snip>

She comes in at a heavy 1.35 lbs empty. Half the weight of my Springfield 1911. Now to pick up some more mags and pinky extensions so she fits my hand better.
That is a cute little Glock pistol! How adorable!

Damn. I must be watching too much Precure. That thing looks like a loli to me now.
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