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Old 2015-07-20, 08:01   Link #1
Gan_HOPE326
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Game development central

I searched for a thread like this but couldn't find any, so...

I like developing games as a hobby. I'm posting this now since I just finished this one game for a Jam (a three-days game development contest) in a team with three other people and I'm taking a chance to spread it:

http://gamejolt.com/games/man-pac-s-...etrobots/80924

On GameJolt I also have some of my past games... I am mostly a programmer and can do some art on my own. Is anyone else here involved in making games, or interested in the topic?
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Old 2015-07-20, 22:08   Link #2
WireframeGames
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Hey!

I am a game developer creating games on the UE4 engine^^.
Game Jams are really fun, except when the engine you are using eats and destroys your data and you can't finish up .

BTW: I don't see programmers very often. Am I blind or is your breed rare?^^.
Most of the time I see people requesting programmers on several platforms, but rarely positions are being taken :/.

FYI I am right now working on a game called MY!MY!MY!. Did you ever see the video ME!ME!ME! ? Well... I turned that into a game. It is just pre alpha xD.
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Old 2015-07-21, 08:47   Link #3
Gan_HOPE326
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Originally Posted by WireframeGames View Post
Hey!

I am a game developer creating games on the UE4 engine^^.
Game Jams are really fun, except when the engine you are using eats and destroys your data and you can't finish up .

BTW: I don't see programmers very often. Am I blind or is your breed rare?^^.
Most of the time I see people requesting programmers on several platforms, but rarely positions are being taken :/.

FYI I am right now working on a game called MY!MY!MY!. Did you ever see the video ME!ME!ME! ? Well... I turned that into a game. It is just pre alpha xD.
Haven't seen that video, will check it out .

I actually am a programmer as a job, and making games is my respite from less fun forms of coding. Mostly I do scientific programming, so I'm very good at complicated mechanics (which I usually bring into my games as well). But yeah, most people will go "OK GUYS I HAVE THIS AWESOME IDEA ABOUT A GAME I ONLY NEED A PROGRAMMER TO TURN THIS INTO REALITY" - as if it was a small job .

Personally I would like to be able to do everything myself, even. I enjoy the variety involved in making games - drawing as well as coding and so on. I use engines usually (Unity or Game Maker, have never tried Unreal) just because they make it easier and more fun to code. If after work or in the weekends I had to write C code with SDL for handling graphics I would probably hang myself.
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Old 2015-07-21, 09:31   Link #4
WireframeGames
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Haha, yeah I know these guys. I have X ideas and other people have to turn it into a game. Well, if I think about it, I am doing this with my patreon in some way, haha xD.

Here is the original video of ME!ME!ME!: https://vimeo.com/114099080
(Can't find it on youtube anymore )

Scientific programming... Well, then you are smarter than me in math . Funny thing is that I didn't like mathematics at all. It is just so ironic that game development involves a lot of numbers and mathematics .

Right now I am proficient in any game development area, so I can work alone. To learn all that stuff was so difficult and I won't advice people to go my way, because is is a massive time waster and you need to have a lot of stamina.

I programmed things in several languages (python, unityscript, C#), but right now I am using the blueprint scripting system from the Unreal 4 engine. It is a lot of fun and you don't need to touch one line of code. People assume that blueprint scripting is easy (it is like a brick system with nodes, which contains code bits), but it isn't. You still need to have a good programming habit and make things run efficiently. It is more like visual programming.

One assumption that I see a lot is that blueprint scripting is inferior to C++ (which can be used to make Unreal 4 games too), but these are basicly just containers for native code based on C++. So it runs as fast as C++ code, because it IS C++ code . You know probably best that programming habits and efficient programming is the key to success, not the way, how you do it^^.
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Old 2015-07-22, 04:00   Link #5
Gan_HOPE326
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WireframeGames View Post
Haha, yeah I know these guys. I have X ideas and other people have to turn it into a game. Well, if I think about it, I am doing this with my patreon in some way, haha xD.

Here is the original video of ME!ME!ME!: https://vimeo.com/114099080
(Can't find it on youtube anymore )

Scientific programming... Well, then you are smarter than me in math . Funny thing is that I didn't like mathematics at all. It is just so ironic that game development involves a lot of numbers and mathematics .

Right now I am proficient in any game development area, so I can work alone. To learn all that stuff was so difficult and I won't advice people to go my way, because is is a massive time waster and you need to have a lot of stamina.

I programmed things in several languages (python, unityscript, C#), but right now I am using the blueprint scripting system from the Unreal 4 engine. It is a lot of fun and you don't need to touch one line of code. People assume that blueprint scripting is easy (it is like a brick system with nodes, which contains code bits), but it isn't. You still need to have a good programming habit and make things run efficiently. It is more like visual programming.

One assumption that I see a lot is that blueprint scripting is inferior to C++ (which can be used to make Unreal 4 games too), but these are basicly just containers for native code based on C++. So it runs as fast as C++ code, because it IS C++ code . You know probably best that programming habits and efficient programming is the key to success, not the way, how you do it^^.
Well, graphical programming systems have a bad name mostly because when they get compiled their speed depends heavily on the efficiency of the underlying compiler. In other words, you are putting yourself in the hands of someone else's work. If they did a really good job, the compiler could be as well optimized as the C++ one (especially if there's a good block->code correspondence) but that's hardly ever the case. In addition, graphic code blocks bring with themselves data structures that may not be required for your purposes and that causes overhead. But truth is, optimization techniques have improved, Unreal Engine is a very mature piece of software, and most importantly modern computers have computing power to spare, so yeah - in the end it doesn't really matter much any more.

I wrote scientific software in Fortran, but just yesterday I finished a Python script that does the same thing as a Fortran program I wrote earlier, using Numpy (C++ bindings for numerical operations) and carefully optimizing the code and lo, behold, it almost runs faster. And some time ago I made a benchmark and found I could get friggin' Javascript to run only twice as slow as the C++ equivalent. I actually managed to write a quantum mechanics simulation software in Javascript, just for kicks. It works. Optimization can be a scary thing, and right now, even for interpreted languages, the underlying interpreters are often so good at Just In Time compilation and similar tricks they lift a lot of burden off the shoulders of the programmer. I've never had a case of a game slowing down for too much complexity (but then again, efficient programming practices are so ingrained into me by now I probably already write pretty optimized code without even thinking about it ).

By the way, seeing that video made me wonder - what is your ME!ME!ME! game like exactly? An endless runner with a psychedelic twist?
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Old 2015-07-22, 07:04   Link #6
WireframeGames
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Yes, yes. Technology got much more advanced and more powerful. This makes me happy, because we can do much more stuff today^^. I agree that you are stuck with an algorithm, which was made by another person and you don't have control over it. However, Unreal is just so nice to the user that you have the ability to write your own functions and algorithms in C++. You can even combine blueprint scripting and C++. This makes Unreal to a flexible engine. The contrary can be said about the Cryengine, because it feels much more than a workaround and modding, than actual game developing. Heck I don't have anything against modding (I was one in over 10 years^^), but when you have to create a game, you can't be limited like in modding. The only thing you can do flawlessly with the Cryengine are FPS shooters and "walking simulators ). If you want to do something different, well, you have to rewrite a lot of the engine itself.

Oh man, I loved python. The only thing, which bothered me, were the python 3d game engines. Panda 3d was just a mess (atleast for me), because it didn't felt organized and mostly didn't really work. You needed to setup a lot of things to make it run properly. Don't know if it is still the case today. If python would have had a capable and straightforward 3d rendering engine, I would have stayed .

My game will be something between a third person flying shooter/dodger and a FPS. There will be some scenarios, where you need to dodge bullets/projectiles coming at you, where you need to get to a specific location (there will be some defense mechanisms too, but you have not the ability to spam them.)

When you reach the location, you will get down to the ground and enter the FPS mode, where you need to shoot these girls, because they want to consume you.
ME!ME!ME! is about an otaku, which can't escape the endless cycle of being an otaku. His social contacts deteriorated because of his otaku life style and his addiction to anime and anime related stuff has overcome him. He need to break free to live a normal life again. In the video itself, he is being defeated by his addiction. But in my game, you will get the chance to escape your addiction (and I plan on making it pretty difficult^^).

Right now, you can already fly around, enter FPS mode with the LShift key and shoot at the girls, which explode on hit (with green goo of course^^). The AI is responding to your movements and shooting mechanics + visual stuff are already done. I probably will post a little video in the next few days showing some things in a humorous video .
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Old 2015-07-22, 07:52   Link #7
Gan_HOPE326
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Python is an excellent language for everything... except for making games. Seriously, it's bafflingly bad. There's PyGame (which produces fugly results) and the PySDL bindings of course, but the moment where shit really hits the fan is when the time comes to release whatever it is that you've done. People don't usually keep a Python interpreter with all the relative libraries installed on their computer, and making a standalone executable with stuff like py2exe is a honest to God NIGHTMARE. I gave up on that a long time ago. If someone will ever develop a decent game engine in Python, with a decent build system attached, I will throw all of my money at them.

Javascript, on the other hand, has Phaser.js, which is spectacularly good. If I have to make a game for the Web that's my go-to solution, Unity's WebGL export function is so slow and bugged it isn't even funny.
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Old 2015-07-22, 08:48   Link #8
WireframeGames
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Yes, I didn't come across a half decent engine for python either. It is such a shame, because I like the module like approach.

I used unity and a lot of other engines. Unity is in some respect better than UE4, because it is more intuitive to use. Most of the time however, I end up using UE4, despite the fact that certain things are sometimes obstructed by making it more complicated than it should be. Gimbal lock is one of these problems. They could implement a simple node, which would calculate in quats and 2 or 3 nodes, which take in quats to set the objects rotation. I would do it myself, but I don't want to update my custom made node everytime UE4 updates it's engine (they do it a lot and I like it^^).

Unity Webgl....... Oh no... That is crap indeed .

Ah, btw: If you need some art/3d/ game related, I would give you a hand (of course for free^^). You seem like a person, which I would gladly help if you need any .
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Last edited by WireframeGames; 2015-07-22 at 10:43.
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Old 2015-07-22, 12:16   Link #9
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I've made a lot of jam games myself, mostly in C# with XNA.

My most well-received game is probably Conquering Oneself



which is an RPG/Puzzle hybrid in which you fight against yourself in a JRPG battle system.

My most popular game is a toss-up between Hikikomori Manager 2012



which is a game in which you're a hikikomori trying to survive or recover, which to this day keeps getting short tiny bursts of local popularity due to its unique subject, and World of Minimalism



which is a persistent world drawing game in which you simply walk around and draw the world on a central server; it received a short burst of significant popularity (being posted on freeindiegam.es and Rock Paper Shotgun) but has been dead ever since.

The game I made that I like most is MusicRunner, a still-unreleased game I worked 5 months full-time on back in 2012 but which ran into issues for publishing and couldn't be released until a couple months ago; to publish it now I'd have to contact the other developer that worked on the project, make it release-ready and somehow let people know it exists so it doesn't result in less than 10 downloads total.

---

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gan_HOPE326 View Post
I'm posting this now since I just finished this one game for a Jam (a three-days game development contest) in a team with three other people and I'm taking a chance to spread it:

http://gamejolt.com/games/man-pac-s-...etrobots/80924
I think I beat your score (I got 588300 points, you're listed as having 528400), but it failed to submit, likely because I don't have a Gamejolt account.

I think the game wasn't bad, but it wasn't really fun enough to replay. I like the combo system that reduces your multiplier over time rather than harshly erasing it entirely when you're not comboing, though I feel that my main issue with unlimited combo systems, the fact that your early scoring is meaningless and the score practically only depends on how high you get the combo counter (aka how long you survive in a single life), is very much present in this game. Perhaps you could set an upper limit for the combo counter, or reset it periodically (like at the start of every new wave) to resolve this? I also felt that the difficulty ramps up too slowly, discouraging repeat plays as the early game becomes too boring.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WireframeGames View Post
BTW: I don't see programmers very often. Am I blind or is your breed rare?^^.
Depends on where you look. I'm used to seeing a lot of programmers and a shortage of artists. (And of course a lot of idea guys, there's never a shortage of idea guys.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gan_HOPE326 View Post
Personally I would like to be able to do everything myself, even.
I'd love to do this myself, and I can do the programming, game design and sound and music. Unfortunately, I'm terrible with art, and that prevents me from making certain kinds of games (for example, you can't really make a point & click adventure without remotely decent art). The role art plays in people's first impressions also makes people less likely to try my games.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gan_HOPE326 View Post
I use engines usually (Unity or Game Maker, have never tried Unreal) just because they make it easier and more fun to code.
I prefer to do a lot myself (XNA is only a framework rather than a true engine; it's a set of features you can use rather than a whole you have to use), because often - and Unity is a good example of this - you have to work in the default way the engine was intended for, and if you go beyond that, you'll have to work around the engine more than you work with the engine. I'm a freaking programmer. The code should bend to my will, not the other way around.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WireframeGames View Post
It is just so ironic that game development involves a lot of numbers and mathematics .
Most of it is hidden in low-level implementations and as game developer (as opposed to game engine developer or even lower-level stuff) you don't have to worry about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WireframeGames View Post
One assumption that I see a lot is that blueprint scripting is inferior to C++ (which can be used to make Unreal 4 games too), but these are basicly just containers for native code based on C++. So it runs as fast as C++ code, because it IS C++ code . You know probably best that programming habits and efficient programming is the key to success, not the way, how you do it^^.
And if you follow all the steps from code to eventual execution, even Javascript ends up being executed as machine code in the end. The relevant part here is how many steps are in-between; each step adds excess baggage that slows down the process further. Yes, properly written code is more important for speed than the amount of abstraction between code and execution; however, the amount of layers in-between does have a notable effect on performance as well (in addition to limiting just how much you can optimize your code).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gan_HOPE326 View Post
and most importantly modern computers have computing power to spare, so yeah - in the end it doesn't really matter much any more.
And this kind of thinking, multiplied by dozens of implementations, is why Spelunky lags on a freaking PS Vita.

While I don't disagree with the prioritization of convenience above performance, this issue cascades further and further until it reaches ridiculous levels. You should try coding Assembly for the NES, and you'll be surprised just how fast 1 MHz is. With that knowledge, it's utterly bizarre that something as 'simple' as Spelunky would lag on a machine with 4x 2000 MHz. But it happens because of countless cut corners in the dozens of underlying implementations it makes use of.
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Old 2015-07-22, 16:06   Link #10
Gan_HOPE326
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WireframeGames View Post
Ah, btw: If you need some art/3d/ game related, I would give you a hand (of course for free^^). You seem like a person, which I would gladly help if you need any .
I'll keep that in mind . Especially for 3D stuff because I've never done a 3D game due to my being utterly ignorant of modeling altogether . I only tried a couple Blender tutorials and that's it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VDZ View Post
I've made a lot of jam games myself, mostly in C# with XNA.

My most well-received game is probably [url=http://ludumdare.com/compo/ludum-dare-25/?action=preview&uid=7284]Conquering Oneself

which is an RPG/Puzzle hybrid in which you fight against yourself in a JRPG battle system.

My most popular game is a toss-up between [url=http://ludumdare.com/compo/ludum-dare-22/?action=preview&uid=7284]Hikikomori Manager 2012

which is a game in which you're a hikikomori trying to survive or recover, which to this day keeps getting short tiny bursts of local popularity due to its unique subject, and [url=http://ludumdare.com/compo/ludum-dare-26/?action=preview&uid=7284]World of Minimalism

which is a persistent world drawing game in which you simply walk around and draw the world on a central server; it received a short burst of significant popularity (being posted on freeindiegam.es and Rock Paper Shotgun) but has been dead ever since.

The game I made that I like most is MusicRunner, a still-unreleased game I worked 5 months full-time on back in 2012 but which ran into issues for publishing and couldn't be released until a couple months ago; to publish it now I'd have to contact the other developer that worked on the project, make it release-ready and somehow let people know it exists so it doesn't result in less than 10 downloads total.

I think I beat your score (I got 588300 points, you're listed as having 528400), but it failed to submit, likely because I don't have a Gamejolt account.

I think the game wasn't bad, but it wasn't really fun enough to replay. I like the combo system that reduces your multiplier over time rather than harshly erasing it entirely when you're not comboing, though I feel that my main issue with unlimited combo systems, the fact that your early scoring is meaningless and the score practically only depends on how high you get the combo counter (aka how long you survive in a single life), is very much present in this game. Perhaps you could set an upper limit for the combo counter, or reset it periodically (like at the start of every new wave) to resolve this? I also felt that the difficulty ramps up too slowly, discouraging repeat plays as the early game becomes too boring.



Depends on where you look. I'm used to seeing a lot of programmers and a shortage of artists. (And of course a lot of idea guys, there's never a shortage of idea guys.)



I'd love to do this myself, and I can do the programming, game design and sound and music. Unfortunately, I'm terrible with art, and that prevents me from making certain kinds of games (for example, you can't really make a point & click adventure without remotely decent art). The role art plays in people's first impressions also makes people less likely to try my games.



I prefer to do a lot myself (XNA is only a framework rather than a true engine; it's a set of features you can use rather than a whole you have to use), because often - and Unity is a good example of this - you have to work in the default way the engine was intended for, and if you go beyond that, you'll have to work around the engine more than you work with the engine. I'm a freaking programmer. The code should bend to my will, not the other way around.



Most of it is hidden in low-level implementations and as game developer (as opposed to game engine developer or even lower-level stuff) you don't have to worry about it.



And if you follow all the steps from code to eventual execution, even Javascript ends up being executed as machine code in the end. The relevant part here is how many steps are in-between; each step adds excess baggage that slows down the process further. Yes, properly written code is more important for speed than the amount of abstraction between code and execution; however, the amount of layers in-between does have a notable effect on performance as well (in addition to limiting just how much you can optimize your code).



And this kind of thinking, multiplied by dozens of implementations, is why Spelunky lags on a freaking PS Vita.

While I don't disagree with the prioritization of convenience above performance, this issue cascades further and further until it reaches ridiculous levels. You should try coding Assembly for the NES, and you'll be surprised just how fast 1 MHz is. With that knowledge, it's utterly bizarre that something as 'simple' as Spelunky would lag on a machine with 4x 2000 MHz. But it happens because of countless cut corners in the dozens of underlying implementations it makes use of.
Ah, XNA! The one true framework to end them all. I loved it but never got the chance to really do something of consequence with it - then it got discontinued and MonoGame took its place but it's not the same, not with the Content Pipeline being still this messy.

I understand where you come from. My main reason for using Unity is that I'm a programmer as a job already, and I write low-to-mid-level code all day most days. So when I spend time on my hobby I want to kick back, relax, and see results quick and dirty. Unity strikes me as a good balance because it still relies a lot on C# code and is optimized for 3D games so can handle most 2D stuff with ease (though I am sure it adds a lot of overhead due to its ugly approach of making a 2D game as a 3D game without perspective and with sprites painted as textures on quads, which makes my OCD programmer's soul cringe a bit when I think about it). On my job I hate with a passion all the block code/high level crap people uses for clearly low level tasks (there's a lot of that in the scientific environment, academics are hardly more competent at coding than game developers).

It's funny you mention Javascript as a paragon of high-level language because as I said I can assure you, as someone who works with Javascript a lot - it is HELLA FAST. It beats pure Python by one order of magnitude at basic tasks. Throw WebGL in for rendering and you've got something you can make almost anything with. And I mentioned that framework, Phaser.js - from what you said about XNA, I think you would enjoy it a lot. Give it a try.

(though of course Javascript, syntax-wise, is also FUCKING UGLY, but that's not here nor there)

And I didn't know that about Spelunky but it doesn't surprise me. The thing was made in Game Maker. There's even worse examples. Some time ago I bought Magicmaker on GOG.com. It's a 2D platformer game about creating your own spells to progress through the levels by combining effects you gather. It looks like this:

Spoiler for Big Image:


and it manages to lag on a freakin' quad core laptop with a Geforce GT nVidia graphic card. I was screaming at the thought of how fucking incompetent a programmer has to be to let that happen. I think the problem is an indiscriminate and irresponsible use of particle systems, but who knows. Either way, it's just dumb. And yeah, it's made with Game Maker too, I believe.
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Old 2015-07-22, 18:58   Link #11
WireframeGames
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Wow. The thread is getting image heavy .

Well... I focus on engines, which I can work with, without watching a slideshow. On the other hand I want an engine, which is efficient. I can't do anything with an engine, which is barebones and efficient as hell, but on the other hand is unintuitive and complicated to use. Because I tried a variety of game engines, I noticed several speed changes in my workflow. This was most of the time due to the accessibility of tools and the interface itself. An engine can also be easy as hell, but run like crap and cripple computers running the "finished" game/output. The best I've come across is in fact UE4. And Gan HOPE326 found Unity to be the best for his purposes.

To be more precise: It is to 90% the users fault, when something runs bad. Even in the past the programmers had to cheat to achieve certain effects and it is the same nowadays. Developing good programming habits is the best way to avoid problems. Even with the blueprint scripting I have to think outside the box the whole time. Heck, I even alienated the decal system of UE4 to do something it is not supposed to do and it runs well .

I agree that there are speed differences in any language, but knowing these limitations can actually make a big difference, because you know the enemy you are fighting. Probably the best example is minecraft. An open world sandbox game, with destructible environment, AI and such on java? No way!

Still it was possible to do. I think knowing your environment, the limitations of the engine and practicing a good programming habit is the key to create performance friendly games, without sacrificing gameplay elements and visual fidelity .

@Gan: I can model a lot. But I can also create anime models and such. Mostly I am working without rotoscope or an artwork sheet. I had to create the integra hellsing character, but finding reference images of integra is impossible. So I don't need concept art, but I have made models based on concept art too^^. If you want to see pics, just write it in your next reply, because I will need to make a lot of them and because you are the creator of the thread, I will ask for permission^^. Naturally I will tag them with [images], so people can skip it, if they don't want to see them .
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