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Old 2010-12-16, 16:59   Link #61
LadyKikyo91
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I must say not a bad chapter. It has probably been the best chapter I have seen out of the ten recent ones.
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Old 2010-12-16, 17:44   Link #62
Ero-Senn1n
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Originally Posted by SeanQ View Post
IDGI...Haku and Zabuza don't like it, and yet forced to fight against their own will -_- but if they don't care about Kabuto and are already at peace, how come they don't vanish like Sasori and Sai's brother -_- as a matter of fact, half of the zombies are already at peace and don't give a crap about kabuto -_-
It seems Kabuto has become an even greater puppet master than Sasori or Nagato were. Nagato had 6 bodies, each one knowing only one thing, also they had to be near Nagato for the control. Nagato was using his own chakra, so there was huge risk for him, as we have seen he was even bleeding when overusing his powers. And now it seems that Kabuto's Edo Tensei is better than Nagato's zombie corpses in every way. However now it seems that he needed Orochimaru's power to level up his Edo Tensei, that might be a hint that he is connected to the zombies in some way, and if there is a connection then that's a risk for Kabuto. We don't know yet if it's a chakra connection or something else, in case of chakra connection the risk is there, in case of some mental connection the risk might be that for example Itachi uses Tsukiyomi on Kabuto (in case of Tsukiyomi there is no time to do hand seals or anything).

It's hard to believe that Kabuto can see and hear everything that the zombies do, that's too much overpowered. He just sits in a safe place as a general of a zombie army and remotely controls them to do whatever he wants. Kishimoto is really teasing us to try to come up with a good idea of what can be the weakness of this jutsu
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Old 2010-12-16, 17:56   Link #63
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The only thing I don't like is how fortunate Kabuto and Madara have been. Like Kabuto just happened to get a hold of Anko who has a curse seal which contains some of Oro's chakra. Now that allows him to gain greater control of the zombies and avoid talk-no-jutsu. What if he didn't get to capture Anko? That would mean his other zombies would meet the same fate as Sasori and Sai's brother.

And Madara getting Yamato will also turn out to be very convenient. Otherwise the Zetsu clones might have gone down as easy as we saw in this chapter. But now they will likely reform. Just a little too much luck for these two.

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Originally Posted by DeDe View Post
We should be getting a a spoiler and chapter next week as usual. Shueisha always ships early because of the break. At least that is how it has always worked. We always got a leaked chapter before Christmas.

Next week should be the infamous cliffhanger chapter. So things should look bad for the Alliance. The zombies will likely now own. The Zetsu army will cream Div 2 and 5 in order to establish they are a threat. And Kishi will setup the next zombie fights. We haven't even seen Div 4 or 1 yet. .
That's good to know cause I thought this was the last chapter of the year. I expect to see Naruto, Sasuke. and maybe Gaara's group in the last chapter.
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Old 2010-12-16, 18:06   Link #64
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The same reason you'd like chocolate over vanilla. No genuine reason. It's all down to personal taste.
Could you please come back to me when you have a better argument than, "That's your opinion."

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I suppose some just find it interesting what rematch will be like.
Kakashi beats Zabuza. Called it.

Or he uses talk no jutsu.

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Others respect the level of depth and care he shows to even the most minor fights and characters.
It's impossible for Kishi to give depth and care to the minor characters when he barely even acknowledges their existence.

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Why you find it inetersting will depnd on what you're looking for. Kafriel likes it because he like the Seven Swordsmen in the Mist
Does he like them for any other reason beyond them just being the Seven Swordsmen of the Mist?

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and thinks this might be relevant to the overall plot.
Yeah...what is the overall plot again?

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Not enitrely unfounded since the last fight that everyone at first believed would simply be fodder bashing, turned out to reveal a flaw in the Zombie jutsu that will obviously prove to be important, and, against all expectations, a victory for the good guys.
And an extremely stupid flaw it was. A stupid flaw to a stupidly broken ninjutsu.

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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
It's quite simple really. Kishimoto wanted to show us the...whatever you want to call the final panel image...the "conversion" (?), as Kabuto upp'd the ante, and changes the Edo Tensei. But, Kishimoto did not want to use any of the unknown zombies, or the emotionally relavent zombies (Asuma, Dan, Neji's dad, etc). So, he used a zombie that would know a main character, be able to communicate with a main character, and someone that the audience would be able to see a difference in after the "conversion" (by comparing how the character acted before and after the "conversion").
That's a pretty weak reason. And I think you people are missing the point of what I'm saying.
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Old 2010-12-16, 18:29   Link #65
james0246
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Originally Posted by Nobodyman9 View Post
Kakashi beats Zabuza. Called it.
Actually, it's Kakashi duty to be beaten so as to show just how powerful an opponent is...

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Originally Posted by Nobodyman9 View Post
That's a pretty weak reason. And I think you people are missing the point of what I'm saying.
How is that a weak reason? I exlained a fairly legitimate reason for why the "rematch" is occuring the way it has. Seeing Dan/Asume/etc interact with their loved ones is unneeded currently (though I acknowledge that Asume v. Shikimaru could have filled in for Zabuza v. Kakashi (possibly even Chiyo v. Sakura)), and the other random zombies have no real connection to anyone, so we have no idea if they had changed or not. But, we know Zabuza, and we know hoe he acts and interacts. Consequently, to show the audience just what Kabuto has done/is doing (btw, this is the "why" of your initial question...), we see Zabuza's change, and how he interacts with Kakashi before and after.
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Old 2010-12-16, 19:02   Link #66
Nobodyman9
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Actually, it's Kakashi duty to be beaten so as to show just how powerful an opponent is...
And when he gets constantly defeated it kinda defeats the purpose. But yeah, I guess I can't disagree.

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How is that a weak reason? I exlained a fairly legitimate reason for why the "rematch" is occuring the way it has. Seeing Dan/Asume/etc interact with their loved ones is unneeded currently (though I acknowledge that Asume v. Shikimaru could have filled in for Zabuza v. Kakashi (possibly even Chiyo v. Sakura)), and the other random zombies have no real connection to anyone, so we have no idea if they had changed or not. But, we know Zabuza, and we know hoe he acts and interacts. Consequently, to show the audience just what Kabuto has done/is doing (btw, this is the "why" of your initial question...), we see Zabuza's change, and how he interacts with Kakashi before and after.
If the only thing that's happening right now is that Zabuza and the other zombies are being put under mind control, then that's it. Just show Kabuto putting them under mind control, killing their personalities and becoming mindless killers. Zabuza doesn't need to be interacting with Kakashi to show that.
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Old 2010-12-16, 19:55   Link #67
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Originally Posted by Nobodyman9 View Post
If the only thing that's happening right now is that Zabuza and the other zombies are being put under mind control, then that's it. Just show Kabuto putting them under mind control, killing their personalities and becoming mindless killers. Zabuza doesn't need to be interacting with Kakashi to show that.
How come you complain about lack of depth and how Kishi can not have depth to his characters because he chooses to not except there existence yet you want less interaction and growth between two characters?

Now yes there does not need to be to much between the characters they had like several other chapters in the past to do so.

I am sure we can all agree that there are aspects of Kishis work (like everything) is not perfect, and it has flaws.
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Old 2010-12-16, 20:01   Link #68
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I find it interesting than neither of them asked about Sasuke. But then I remembered that they think he is dead. Sasuke didn't wake up until later.
Yeah, you're right. I did wonder why Zabuza didn't mention him.

I'd be interested in seeing Sasuke getting to encounter Zabuza and Haku again (technically, they're on the same team now), but Zabuza and co. will probably be defeated before that chance comes.

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Originally Posted by Ulquiorra View Post
The only thing I don't like is how fortunate Kabuto and Madara have been. Like Kabuto just happened to get a hold of Anko who has a curse seal which contains some of Oro's chakra. Now that allows him to gain greater control of the zombies and avoid talk-no-jutsu. What if he didn't get to capture Anko? That would mean his other zombies would meet the same fate as Sasori and Sai's brother.
Well, it was also pretty lucky for the alliance that Kabuto raised two zombies and just happened to place them on the same team, then they happen to encounter a team with the exact two people (out of army of 80,000!) who knew their personal histories well enough to defeat them.
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Old 2010-12-16, 20:13   Link #69
james0246
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And when he gets constantly defeated it kinda defeats the purpose. But yeah, I guess I can't disagree.
'Tis his role in the story.

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Originally Posted by Nobodyman9 View Post
If the only thing that's happening right now is that Zabuza and the other zombies are being put under mind control, then that's it. Just show Kabuto putting them under mind control, killing their personalities and becoming mindless killers. Zabuza doesn't need to be interacting with Kakashi to show that.
Yes, and Zabuza is a perfect way of showing this "conversion"...which was your original question ("why").
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Old 2010-12-16, 20:46   Link #70
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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
Well, it was also pretty lucky for the alliance that Kabuto raised two zombies and just happened to place them on the same team, then they happen to encounter a team with the exact two people (out of army of 80,000!) who knew their personal histories well enough to defeat them.
Well that is called the world of Fiction lol.
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Old 2010-12-16, 21:36   Link #71
ronin myael
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for some reason this reminds me of macgyver having all the tools he need to create exactly the thing to help him in any given situation. lol

there are no coincidences in a fictional world, especially in kishi's world. kind of like having jiraiya talk to tsunade about naruto's true identity just before he battles pain and dies. and before naruto finally finds out who he really is. when jiraiya battles pain kishi finally shows us how the sage technique works right before naruto starts to train in the same jutsu. it was all done for the sake of drama. that's what you call a build-up.
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Old 2010-12-16, 23:22   Link #72
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this must be a fight fair and square.
He lost to Kakashi before. Kakashi has trained, acquired magenkyo and gotten stronger. The only thing stopping it from a complete massacre is the invincible zombie bodies. Only thing that will happen is Zabuza getting obliterated in every panel.

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Originally Posted by Ulquiorra View Post
The only thing I don't like is how fortunate Kabuto and Madara have been. Like Kabuto just happened to get a hold of Anko who has a curse seal which contains some of Oro's chakra. Now that allows him to gain greater control of the zombies and avoid talk-no-jutsu. What if he didn't get to capture Anko? That would mean his other zombies would meet the same fate as Sasori and Sai's brother.

And Madara getting Yamato will also turn out to be very convenient. Otherwise the Zetsu clones might have gone down as easy as we saw in this chapter. But now they will likely reform. Just a little too much luck for these two.
That's because it's all part of Kabuto's plan. It wasn't luck or anything. He's been leading on Anko the entire time, even before he allied with Madara. Highly unlikely he would try to capture a powered up Naruto if they did get Kisame's message beforehand.
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Old 2010-12-17, 01:00   Link #73
Nobodyman9
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How come you complain about lack of depth and how Kishi can not have depth to his characters because he chooses to not except there existence yet you want less interaction and growth between two characters?
What growth? I fail to see any major change coming from Kakashi and Zabuza's interaction. I mean, hell, their interaction right now is something that should never have happened in the first place. Zabuza's story ended ages ago, but then Kishi, in an extremely ham-fisted move, brought him and Haku, and a bunch of other needless characters, back because he was so desperate for a way to make the final arc seem more awesome.
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I am sure we can all agree that there are aspects of Kishis work (like everything) is not perfect, and it has flaws.
Kishi's writing is tremendously flawed.
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
Yes, and Zabuza is a perfect way of showing this "conversion"...which was your original question ("why").
My question was why should we care about Kakashi having a rematch with Zabuza, not why should we care about Kakashi interacting with Zabuza. I mean, how lame would it be now if Naruto had a rematch against Kakuzu or Pain?

This is actually why I thought the idea of a Kankurou/Sasori rematch was kinda interesting since Kankurou lost to him the first time around, and by beating Sasori and would be a good way to show how much Kankurou has improved. But then Kishi had to do the talk no jutsu.
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there are no coincidences in a fictional world, especially in kishi's world. kind of like having jiraiya talk to tsunade about naruto's true identity just before he battles pain and dies. and before naruto finally finds out who he really is. when jiraiya battles pain kishi finally shows us how the sage technique works right before naruto starts to train in the same jutsu. it was all done for the sake of drama. that's what you call a build-up.
Which is all pretty useless if the outcome is a steaming pile of ass that completely undermines and contradicts the themes of the first half of Naruto.
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Old 2010-12-17, 01:15   Link #74
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Originally Posted by Nobodyman9 View Post
My question was why should we care about Kakashi having a rematch with Zabuza, not why should we care about Kakashi interacting with Zabuza. I mean, how lame would it be now if Naruto had a rematch against Kakuzu or Pain?
You do realize that a battle is an interaction .

And yes, Nagato needs to fight Sasuke, and Itachi needs to fight Naruto (those are the only zombies either should fight...though I could see Naruto or Kirabi fighting some of the Jinchuuriki).
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Old 2010-12-17, 01:40   Link #75
Nobodyman9
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You do realize that a battle is an interaction .
All battles are interactions, but not all interactions are battles.

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And yes, Nagato needs to fight Sasuke, and Itachi needs to fight Naruto (those are the only zombies either should fight...though I could see Naruto or Kirabi fighting some of the Jinchuuriki).
Why the hell would Sasuke fight Nagato? .........Actually, you've put some scary ideas in my head.

Naruto vs. Itachi? Well, maybe we could finally get an explanation for why he deepthroated Naruto with a crow.
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Old 2010-12-17, 02:24   Link #76
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Originally Posted by Nobodyman9 View Post
Why the hell would Sasuke fight Nagato? .........Actually, you've put some scary ideas in my head.
Why? Because Naruto "beat" Nagato without Nagato giving his all. So, we finally get to see Nagato go all out, and we get to see Sasuke face a villain that Naruto defeated...

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Naruto vs. Itachi? Well, maybe we could finally get an explanation for why he deepthroated Naruto with a crow.
Why? Because Sasuke "beat" Itachi without Itachi giving his all. So, we finally get to see Itachi go all out, and we get to see Naruto face a villain that Sasuke defeated...

In the end, more than anything else, I do not want Itachi or Nagato to fight anyone else (though if they fought Madara, that would be okay), hell no one else deserves to fight them (and I would be a little disappointed in anyone else defeating them, especially if they have their full powers).
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Old 2010-12-17, 02:27   Link #77
ronin myael
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Which is all pretty useless if the outcome is a steaming pile of ass that completely undermines and contradicts the themes of the first half of Naruto.
steaming pile of ass? lol

i wouldn't go that far though, but i think it's because of that build-up that kishi's writing is so predictable. you kind of know what will happen next, kind of like when you play chess and your opponent is using textbook tactics, you can anticipate the next move.
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Old 2010-12-17, 03:02   Link #78
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Originally Posted by Nobodyman9 View Post
My question was why should we care about Kakashi having a rematch with Zabuza, not why should we care about Kakashi interacting with Zabuza.
You don't have to care, but the fight is most likely a device to show what Kabuto can really do with Edo Tensei. Zabuza was inferior to Kakashi, and especially so when the latter has a 3-year timeskip under his belt, as well as a number of fights with jounin/S-level elements added to his experience in post-timeskip.

This is probably a way to show that Kabuto can 'manually' enhance these zombies by a great deal. To the point that Zabuza may become powerful enough to be on par with Kakashi, if not superior.

That would make the zombies a much greater threat than previously assumed.
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Old 2010-12-17, 04:07   Link #79
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Why? Because Naruto "beat" Nagato without Nagato giving his all. So, we finally get to see Nagato go all out, and we get to see Sasuke face a villain that Naruto defeated...
Actually, I was thinking about how much emo wangst two of the worst characters in the entire series could produce together.

Anyway, looks like Nagato was giving it his all to me. Plus, he doesn't have his Pain bodies now. And on top of that, Sasuke has his Sharinghax, so anything involving him automatically becomes uninteresting.

I would like to know what the Rinnegan actually fucking does, though.

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Why? Because Sasuke "beat" Itachi without Itachi giving his all. So, we finally get to see Itachi go all out, and we get to see Naruto face a villain that Sasuke defeated...
How does that, in any way, follow my statement? Oh, I guess you were just being clever.

Again, why should we give a fuck about the main characters having serious battles with bad guys who we know they're stronger than? And Kishi had the chance to show Itachi giving his full strength, but he ruined it by creating one of the most convoluted and idiotic plot twists ever.

What would Itachi do in a serious fight anyway? Do everything he did in his fight against Sasuke, only betterer?

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In the end, more than anything else, I do not want Itachi or Nagato to fight anyone else (though if they fought Madara, that would be okay), hell no one else deserves to fight them (and I would be a little disappointed in anyone else defeating them, especially if they have their full powers).
They can fight friggin' Ten Ten for all I care. They're just gonna get be beaten by talk jutsu anyway.

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steaming pile of ass? lol

i wouldn't go that far though, but i think it's because of that build-up that kishi's writing is so predictable.
Naruto turning out to be the Yondaime's son was a steaming pile of ass that completely contradicted the theme of hard work and rising through the ranks. In fact, it was downright offensive.

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you kind of know what will happen next, kind of like when you play chess and your opponent is using textbook tactics, you can anticipate the next move.
......Is that supposed to be a compliment to his writing style?
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Old 2010-12-17, 04:17   Link #80
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I agree, Itachi and Nagato should not fight anyone. But if they have too, I guess an Itachi v Kakashi rematch would be most fitting. Although I think I'd rather see Guy v Itachi. That is of course if Sasuke is not the first option.

And for Nagato, without his chair will he be restricted to just his own body? So it would be just him with all six paths (and the heretics path?) Having his powers limited to just one body makes him less troublesome. Especially since he can't rez himself, but with Edo Tensei I guess it won't matter. I guess that makes him tougher actually. So who should be matched up against him, lets see... ah! Hinata gets a rematch! Just kidding. Can any one Alliance Shinobi stand toe to toe with him? Gaara maybe?

And since no one has mentioned Kimimaro, Kimimaro vs Darui.

I forgot about Hanzou. An Immortal Hanzou should wreck havoc. Most of these zombies should wreck havoc actually, now that their personalities have been castrated.

Last edited by Cael; 2010-12-17 at 05:00.
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