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Old 2010-12-22, 06:36   Link #121
solidguy
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
Technically yes, but we should get another spoiler before the year ends.
zzz , normally we're left with an epic cliff hanger. Instead we have errr... this
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Old 2010-12-22, 09:25   Link #122
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Originally Posted by solidguy View Post
zzz , normally we're left with an epic cliff hanger. Instead we have errr... this
I tend to think Naruto had the better cliffhanger of the Big Three...though that's not saying much...
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Old 2010-12-22, 15:07   Link #123
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Nah. It'll be about Sasuke. People get pissy with the lack of Sasuke.
Well I used to like to see more Sauce but now that his hax evil has taken over, not so much. A Sakura year would be nice though.
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Old 2010-12-22, 19:48   Link #124
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A Sakura year would be nice though.
You want a year of wangsting about Naruto and Sasuke? Cause that's all she lives for now. The Sakura that fought Sasori is dead. Did you see what happened when she got a lot of attention during the Kage Summit last year? It was horrible. Everyone hated her.
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Old 2010-12-22, 22:19   Link #125
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Originally Posted by Ulquiorra View Post
You want a year of wangsting about Naruto and Sasuke? Cause that's all she lives for now. The Sakura that fought Sasori is dead. Did you see what happened when she got a lot of attention during the Kage Summit last year? It was horrible. Everyone hated her.
precisely why kishi should bring back the sakura who fought an akatsuki. it would be nice to see her once again.
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Old 2010-12-22, 22:41   Link #126
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Everyone hated her.
I didn't hate her. I still can't understand how you can "hate" a fictional character. Kishi is the one who creates Naruto's characters... and if Sakura sucks, well, the only culprit is not her, is Kishi.

A talented mangaka or a wise editor, could give a radical twist to Sakura and the rest of the kunoichis. It isn't Sakura's fault the love that Kishi has for Sasuke and the things that surrounds him.

The other day i was talking with a friend and she told me how epic it would be Naruto if instead Naruto we would have Naruko instead... and that idea is absolutly perfect, but if the Mangaka were Oh Great!, not Kishimoto
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Old 2010-12-23, 00:58   Link #127
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kishi cant make all his characters cool and likeable, that would make for an obscenely dull story. That aside i find sakura teary eyed, emotional, clinging and mostly useless as a fighter, which is likely what kishi intended.
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Old 2010-12-23, 01:51   Link #128
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kishi cant make all his characters cool and likeable, that would make for an obscenely dull story.
Likeable characters = Dull story.

Got it.
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Old 2010-12-23, 03:43   Link #129
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kishi cant make all his characters cool and likeable
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Likeable characters = Dull story.
Quite the important omission there...If everyone was "the good guy" then there would be nothing to move the plot forward. Naruto isn't SoL and even there it's mainly the characters' problems that are intriguing.
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Old 2010-12-23, 03:46   Link #130
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Quite the important omission there...If everyone was "the good guy" then there would be nothing to move the plot forward. Naruto isn't SoL and even there it's mainly the characters' problems that are intriguing.
I'm really having trouble understanding both you and Lendial's so-called "logic."

Characters can have flaws and still be likeable (I mean, christ, look at NGE).

And if you're referring to villains, then let me clue you in. Villains sure-as-hell can be likeable.
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Old 2010-12-23, 06:54   Link #131
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Originally Posted by Nobodyman9 View Post
I'm really having trouble understanding both you and Lendial's so-called "logic."

Characters can have flaws and still be likeable (I mean, christ, look at NGE).

And if you're referring to villains, then let me clue you in. Villains sure-as-hell can be likeable.
i tend to agree with this one. i've always been drawn to the volatile characters, the ones who could easily become villains or heroes depending on their choices. it's the characters who seem too good to be true that annoy me. sure, it's just fiction but i like characters who are real enough for me to relate to, otherwise the story would become predictable since you already know what the hero is going to do next assuming that he/she would do the "right thing" no matter what.

i like villains who are not purely evil, those that became villains of the story simply because they didn't agree with the principles of the hero. these are what you call adversaries or anti-heroes, but they're not necessarily evil.

but then again, a good villain is someone that you would love to hate. the readers/viewers need to hate the character in order for it to work. so i guess there has to be a balance. the villain should be someone you would hate but also likeable enough to generate the sympathy of the fans. a villain simply can't do what he does without ample reason. the reason that he's just plain evil that's why he does these things leans too much into the concept of right and wrong, good versus evil. there is no such thing as purely black and white in this world, there are gray areas in between.
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Old 2010-12-23, 13:10   Link #132
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Originally Posted by Nobodyman9 View Post
I'm really having trouble understanding both you and Lendial's so-called "logic."

Characters can have flaws and still be likeable (I mean, christ, look at NGE).

And if you're referring to villains, then let me clue you in. Villains sure-as-hell can be likeable.
It's quite possible that Lendial simply prefers stories with characters that are intentionally unbearable.
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Last edited by CrowKenobi; 2010-12-23 at 13:17. Reason: Off topic jab removed. Let's stay civil now or warnings WILL be forthcoming...
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Old 2010-12-23, 20:53   Link #133
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Originally Posted by ronin myael View Post
[...]
Well, hasn't that been the formula used on Naruto villains, for like... forever? Aside from a few exceptions, most of the villains have had rough spots. Even Orochimaru.
Sasuke was essentially an anti-hero. But isn't that also a staple of these characters? Sometimes they go too far in one direction and they stop being anti's, they're then either villains or heroes.
Most characters are 'likable' in Naruto, (I would normally resist using such a vague word) it's the only reason people do care about their development, or lack thereof.

As for Lendial's comment, I would agree that all characters can't be equal in terms of 'cool' or 'like'. If you make everything equally awesome, you spread viewer attention too thinly over the piece.
By the way, big reason why I think Luffy in OP had to be separated from his crew for the war in Marineford to take place. I don't think the piece would've worked with the crew there. So I'd think even Oda follows that staple. Kubo, on the other hand...
I believe it means that your viewers don't know where to look or that they all look in different directions. A good storyteller knows how to place emphasis where needed.

I think the quoter was not being reasonable and took the quote out of context, but he has a reputation to maintain so that's fine.
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Old 2010-12-24, 00:33   Link #134
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I didn't hate her. I still can't understand how you can "hate" a fictional character. Kishi is the one who creates Naruto's characters... and if Sakura sucks, well, the only culprit is not her, is Kishi.

A talented mangaka or a wise editor, could give a radical twist to Sakura and the rest of the kunoichis. It isn't Sakura's fault the love that Kishi has for Sasuke and the things that surrounds him.

The other day i was talking with a friend and she told me how epic it would be Naruto if instead Naruto we would have Naruko instead... and that idea is absolutly perfect, but if the Mangaka were Oh Great!, not Kishimoto
Yeah the keyword there being "talent" and so far Kishi has shown he is a mediocre artist with little talent.

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Originally Posted by Ulquiorra View Post
You want a year of wangsting about Naruto and Sasuke? Cause that's all she lives for now. The Sakura that fought Sasori is dead. Did you see what happened when she got a lot of attention during the Kage Summit last year? It was horrible. Everyone hated her.
You're right but a redemption year wouldn't be a bad thing you have to admit.
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Old 2010-12-24, 00:37   Link #135
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Yeah the keyword there being "talent" and so far Kishi has shown he is a mediocre artist with little talent.
It's not that Kishi doesn't have talent (because the art in part 1 was pretty sweet), it's just that he doesn't care anymore.
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Old 2010-12-24, 02:05   Link #136
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Originally Posted by Frenchie View Post
Well, hasn't that been the formula used on Naruto villains, for like... forever? Aside from a few exceptions, most of the villains have had rough spots. Even Orochimaru.
Sasuke was essentially an anti-hero. But isn't that also a staple of these characters? Sometimes they go too far in one direction and they stop being anti's, they're then either villains or heroes.
Most characters are 'likable' in Naruto, (I would normally resist using such a vague word) it's the only reason people do care about their development, or lack thereof.
hmmm...the main villains in naruto are not that likeable. who likes orochimaru? i don't. he's gross! anyways, his reason for being the way he was is because he became obsessed with immortality. but from the start he was viewed as somewhat strange and even creepy. he wasn't exactly the model student despite being a genius and being the sandaime's favorite student. he was basically expected to become evil. so was madara i think. both were wrapped in a certain darkness fueled by rage and ambition. sasuke is an anti-hero, i never thought of him as an evil villain. so is nagato. but the two main villains of the story are considered to be evil. they didn't have enough reason to do what they did. nobody pushed them to become what they turned out to be, they did all that by themselves out of their own desires. whereas sasuke and nagato were forced into utter despair and suffered great losses.

also the heroes in naruto, especially naruto, are typical heroes who did the righteous thing no matter what. naruto never broke the rules. he never hurt anyone intentionally. he never had to choose between doing what is right and what he wants, he always chose what is deemed to be right even at his own expense. there's no darkness in naruto, only light. he's annoyingly optimistic about almost everything it's tiresome. if not for the kyuubi in him he would be absolutely boring, but that's just me. he's a lovable character but i've always preferred the ones with dark streaks in them, the ones who could easily become the villain if they chose to be. the ones who aren't afraid to do the wrong thing just to prove a point.

one good example for me is the character of himura kenshin. as battousai he was capable of slaying thousands and he did so without batting an eyelash. he was the ultimate killer and he killed without hesitation or regret. he could've easily become a villain if he didn't change his ways and chose to lead a life without violence. and he carried a reversed-edge blade to remind him of his promise and atonement for his past transgressions. but then that's when he became boring for me. he became too idealistic after that.
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Old 2010-12-24, 15:36   Link #137
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Originally Posted by Nobodyman9 View Post
I'm really having trouble understanding both you and Lendial's so-called "logic."

Characters can have flaws and still be likeable (I mean, christ, look at NGE).

And if you're referring to villains, then let me clue you in. Villains sure-as-hell can be likeable.
Ok, I'll just break it down to TVtropes and mention a universe of Mary Sue/Gary Stus where everyone is the same, cool and likeable...but how can they be cool and likeable if they're all the same? You can't have someone likeable if you don't have someone different (i.e. less likeable) to compare them to.
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who likes orochimaru?
You'd be surprised...he started out as mysterious and scary (even Kakashi was afraid of him) and one of his best qualities imo is that he died with no tragic flashback and happy moments, a true villain till the very end.
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Old 2010-12-24, 18:39   Link #138
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Originally Posted by ronin myael View Post
hmmm...the main villains in naruto are not that likeable. who likes orochimaru? i don't. he's gross! anyways, his reason for being the way he was is because he became obsessed with immortality. but from the start he was viewed as somewhat strange and even creepy. he wasn't exactly the model student despite being a genius and being the sandaime's favorite student. he was basically expected to become evil. so was madara i think. both were wrapped in a certain darkness fueled by rage and ambition. sasuke is an anti-hero, i never thought of him as an evil villain. so is nagato. but the two main villains of the story are considered to be evil. they didn't have enough reason to do what they did. nobody pushed them to become what they turned out to be, they did all that by themselves out of their own desires. whereas sasuke and nagato were forced into utter despair and suffered great losses.
One thing you learn watching Naruto is that few villains are actually born that way. Sasori was cool as beans, Haku was clearly not a villain at heart, though he fought for the wrong guy. 'demon' Zabuza found redemption in death. The sound Genin were being used by Orochimaru, who, in turn, became obsessed with immortality to meet with his parents. A folk story Sandaime told him about the white snake's symbolism.

I refuse to believe Naruto villains are as clear cut as you say they are. Wasn't Gaara clearly a villain when introduced? Yes he was. There is a fair number of them that are actually evil and stay that way, but making this kind of generalisation isn't convincing.

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also the heroes in naruto, especially naruto, are typical heroes who did the righteous thing no matter what. naruto never broke the rules. he never hurt anyone intentionally. he never had to choose between doing what is right and what he wants, he always chose what is deemed to be right even at his own expense. there's no darkness in naruto, only light. he's annoyingly optimistic about almost everything it's tiresome. if not for the kyuubi in him he would be absolutely boring, but that's just me. he's a lovable character but i've always preferred the ones with dark streaks in them, the ones who could easily become the villain if they chose to be. the ones who aren't afraid to do the wrong thing just to prove a point.
And I think it's silly to ask for something else. When I read OP, I don't suddenly expect Luffy to become smart, dark and edgy. Naruto's main staple was always an unerring, unabashed optimism, in spite of everything that had happened to him.

Did you seriously want more Yami Naruto? Because I sure as hell didn't. Naruto is a character that strove for this impossible goal since day 1 of the anime, and still is. There's no reason he should give up, or develop a darker side, considering this kind of outlook has never worked against him. Heck, it brought him all of his current techniques and defeated/convinced its fair share of villains.

His only true failure, and we all know that's just temporary, is failing to bring back Sasuke.

When a hero's mentality evolves, like in the case of Sasuke, it's because his current condition doesn't satisfy him. Sasuke's perfectionism coupled with the goody-two shoes nature of Konoha and their laid-back attitude spurred him to seek a new way of doing things. And with that, his mentality changed.

Naruto didn't have that and doesn't need that.
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Old 2010-12-24, 23:52   Link #139
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One thing you learn watching Naruto is that few villains are actually born that way. Sasori was cool as beans, Haku was clearly not a villain at heart, though he fought for the wrong guy. 'demon' Zabuza found redemption in death. The sound Genin were being used by Orochimaru, who, in turn, became obsessed with immortality to meet with his parents. A folk story Sandaime told him about the white snake's symbolism.

I refuse to believe Naruto villains are as clear cut as you say they are. Wasn't Gaara clearly a villain when introduced? Yes he was. There is a fair number of them that are actually evil and stay that way, but making this kind of generalisation isn't convincing.
i've always thought that orochimaru was just afraid to die. a lot of people lose their parents but they don't try to conquer the world. most of history's "villains" were born with the pretense of a noble cause. hitler lied to himself and the german people that he only wished to raise them from the muck of poverty, to claim what is theirs, blaming the jews for taking that right. but in fact, he desired power, he liked the fact that people followed him and listened to him. he did it to fulfill his own selfish needs. orochimaru did what he did out of his own desires, it wasn't to meet his parents or whatever.

when i first encountered gaara i thought he was a cool, intriguing character. but like itachi, i've always known there is a major reason why he turned out the way he did. if i were gaara, i too would have been consumed with anger considering what happened to him. he was a misguided, angry kid, but i didn't think he was evil. i was like that when i was younger. if gaara had turned out to be the main villain of this series it would have been better for me. or maybe nagato. but they didn't. they ended up becoming naruto's "fans". orochimaru was the ultimate baddie, he was pure evil to me and he died as such. let's see how madara fares. but so far, he seems to be leaning more towards the pure evil villain as well.

Quote:
And I think it's silly to ask for something else. When I read OP, I don't suddenly expect Luffy to become smart, dark and edgy. Naruto's main staple was always an unerring, unabashed optimism, in spite of everything that had happened to him.

Did you seriously want more Yami Naruto? Because I sure as hell didn't. Naruto is a character that strove for this impossible goal since day 1 of the anime, and still is. There's no reason he should give up, or develop a darker side, considering this kind of outlook has never worked against him. Heck, it brought him all of his current techniques and defeated/convinced its fair share of villains.

His only true failure, and we all know that's just temporary, is failing to bring back Sasuke.

When a hero's mentality evolves, like in the case of Sasuke, it's because his current condition doesn't satisfy him. Sasuke's perfectionism coupled with the goody-two shoes nature of Konoha and their laid-back attitude spurred him to seek a new way of doing things. And with that, his mentality changed.
ahh, but naruto hasn't failed yet. he will save sasuke in some way. we all know that he will, and he will become hokage one day, two of the more predictable aspects of this series.

not really, but it would be more "realistic" if he shows some desperation and hopelessness once in a while. but he never does. it's human to feel those emotions but he never falters, he remains a steadfast optimist no matter what. you might say that he's a just a fictional character and naruto is not written that way so there's no need for him to show more human emotions. but as a writer, you have to consider that, otherwise your story would just be another fairy tale. you want to inspire your young readers to strive for their dreams but not give them false hopes that they fail to see their limits. but that's just me. it all comes down to our own individual preferences i suppose. i guess we have very different concepts of what a hero is supposed to be. i prefer someone who is flawed, human, ordinary and yet capable of doing extraordinary things. someone who is scared to death and yet still fights for what he believes in. that's what you call courage and that's how real heroes are made. don't think i ever saw naruto get so scared he couldn't fight anymore except for the time sasuke called him a coward at the beginning of the series. naruto (and perhaps most heroes in shonen manga) came from the same mold. they're all optimists, extraordinary, special and almost perfect (save for some IQ problems).

one of the things that intrigued me with death note is that the main protagonist is really the anti-hero of the series. it was a fresh change. i'm still waiting for a shonen series with an ordinary hero, no super powers, no great lineage, and just the drive to prove himself. naruto started out that way until kishi gave him the kyuubi, powerful parents and monstrous power-ups.

Last edited by ronin myael; 2010-12-25 at 00:40.
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Old 2010-12-25, 00:09   Link #140
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Ok, I'll just break it down to TVtropes
Oh for the love of god.

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and mention a universe of Mary Sue/Gary Stus where everyone is the same, cool and likeable...but how can they be cool and likeable if they're all the same? You can't have someone likeable if you don't have someone different (i.e. less likeable) to compare them to.
Mary Sues are not likeable. Not even just one of them. The same applies to Poochies.

The statement was that Kishi should not have too many of his characters be likeable, which is pretty much a lot of crap.

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