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Old 2011-06-10, 12:20   Link #841
lordshadowisle
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What, no Keynesians here ? Perhaps the problem wasn't Mikuni trading part of the future to save the present, but rather that he didn't trade enough of it to entirely counter [C]. Of course, that's entirely unlikely considering what's being portrayed in the show, but it's an interesting counterpoint to think about.

In any case, I wonder what would the situation have been if [C] was just left alone. Note that even after putting in all that has been siphoned from the future, the damage was sufficient to halve the GDP. It sure seems like Japan is doomed either way.

Finally, it seems strange that Mikuni is just able to borrow the futures of others. This needs some explaining.
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Old 2011-06-10, 12:34   Link #842
Sumeragi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordshadowisle View Post
What, no Keynesians here ? Perhaps the problem wasn't Mikuni trading part of the future to save the present, but rather that he didn't trade enough of it to entirely counter [C]. Of course, that's entirely unlikely considering what's being portrayed in the show, but it's an interesting counterpoint to think about.

In any case, I wonder what would the situation have been if [C] was just left alone. Note that even after putting in all that has been siphoned from the future, the damage was sufficient to halve the GDP. It sure seems like Japan is doomed either way.

Finally, it seems strange that Mikuni is just able to borrow the futures of others. This needs some explaining.
The problem with pure Keynesian economics is that it does not explain how much at what time is needed to counter the falling market. Monetary economics helps buffer that defect by allowing the value of money itself to be changed for some time until the flow of money gets going.

The way I see it, the problem is that there is no set value or trust in the future right now. The economy has been falling, and that has led to a pessimism that would affect the future value of the future. The best way to have buffered the damage would have been to make the value of the future go up, instead of depressing the value with this constant trading.
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Old 2011-06-10, 12:36   Link #843
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordshadowisle View Post
What, no Keynesians here ?
Personally, I find it refreshing how a more Austrian economic approach appears to be favored here in this anime.

Let's face it: For good or for ill, Keynesian economics basically governs the world right now. So to see C take an entirely oppositional stance to it is bold and interesting, in my opinion. Much moreso than it would be for C to support the status quo.
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Old 2011-06-10, 13:17   Link #844
ipodi
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Must... resist.... Oh well, I can't. I am going to hide my reply so not to intrude on those who want to discuss the series itself.

Spoiler for irrelevant econ stuff:
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Old 2011-06-10, 14:02   Link #845
Sumeragi
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Originally Posted by ipodi View Post
Must... resist.... Oh well, I can't. I am going to hide my reply so not to intrude on those who want to discuss the series itself.

Spoiler for irrelevant econ stuff:
Spoiler for Counter:
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Old 2011-06-10, 15:09   Link #846
Guardian Enzo
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In the end the real truth of the matter is that the Midas game is a no-win scenario - RL is screwed either way, and the house wins every time. Mikuni is a sap - he's playing by the house rules. He's trying to fight the disease by treating the symptoms.

I think it's a mistake to view this series as a screed against Keynesian economics. It's a kind of Smithian straw man of Keynesian thought that's being discussed here - as if Keynesian economics was nothing more than unlimited debt spending and anti-capitalist government policy. In fact, the most relevant part of Keynesian thought as relates to this series is its opposition to monetary neutrality - the idea that the money supply has no real impact on long-term economic growth and stability. In fact Keynesian policy has been on the decline worldwide for the last 35-40 years, and a Keynesian or Post-Keynesian would probably argue that it's the rise of Smithian de-regulation and deficit spending that's led to the worldwide economic crisis this series is trying to illuminate. Likewise a Keynesian would probably be horrified by what Mikuni has tried to do, as it runs counter to the very nature of Keynesian principles.

Last edited by Guardian Enzo; 2011-06-10 at 15:28.
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Old 2011-06-10, 16:07   Link #847
ipodi
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Spoiler for more econ jabber:
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Old 2011-06-10, 16:29   Link #848
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I still think Msyu isn't Kimimaro's daughter. Doesn't really matter either which way though.

No comment on Mikuni's actions. At the very least though, he didn't have any ulterior motives unlike the majority of people who play with big amount on money IRL.
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Old 2011-06-10, 17:30   Link #849
Lumir
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So the "ones above" in the C cities are aliens? Freakish tentacles that pull up an entire countries future when the midas money runs out?

From my perspective the entire midas money situation is a scam, in that the "ones above" have planted that money all around for the direct purpose of destroying the world by consuming its future. I wonder what they need the future of the world for hmmm.

And whats worse using the midas money to save the present just seems like falling into their hands even more. Also I got a vibe that we saw the future of our hero, who was aged probably due to forfeiting his future to save the world and to bring his companion into the world as his daughter.
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Old 2011-06-10, 20:17   Link #850
lordshadowisle
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I seem to have opened some Pandora's box by mentioning Keynes... Oh well.

As mentioned above, the entire financial district appears to be a rigged game where everything is lose-lose, in the long run. The only way is to get out, which appears to be impossible.

I've been thinking about what Jennifer means by "illegal methods". It might have to do get stopping people from transacting in the financial district. Unfortunately, short of killing everyone (using conventional methods), I can't think of many other methods to achieve this.
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Old 2011-06-10, 20:38   Link #851
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The IMF chief looks so much like the former IMF chief in real life, hmmm...
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Old 2011-06-10, 23:24   Link #852
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
The problem with pure Keynesian economics is that it does not explain how much at what time is needed to counter the falling market. Monetary economics helps buffer that defect by allowing the value of money itself to be changed for some time until the flow of money gets going.

The way I see it, the problem is that there is no set value or trust in the future right now. The economy has been falling, and that has led to a pessimism that would affect the future value of the future. The best way to have buffered the damage would have been to make the value of the future go up, instead of depressing the value with this constant trading.
I do paper trading on a fortnightly basis. Economics is a very large subject and it doesn't just consist of Keynes here - each philosophy is applicable to different scenarios, and sometimes, amalgamation of ideas to suit the event is required.

Like what I posted in the News Thread :

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
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When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2011-06-11, 10:02   Link #853
ipodi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
I do paper trading on a fortnightly basis. Economics is a very large subject and it doesn't just consist of Keynes here - each philosophy is applicable to different scenarios, and sometimes, amalgamation of ideas to suit the event is required.

Like what I posted in the News Thread :
Spoiler for econ yammering:
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Old 2011-06-11, 12:35   Link #854
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Well now that Kimimaro seems convinced that Mashu is his future daughter we can almost eliminate that possibility . I mean a lead being right about that kind of thing would be unexpected .

Do feel bad for Mashu. Can see her preferring things as they are. The feelings she has gained are serious and wouldn't have any place if she does turn out to be Kimimaro's future daughter. That's just not the kind of relationship she wants with Kimimaro. The whole forehead kiss could lead to a partnership issue and since we're getting into the most serious moments they don't have time for anything to go wrong between them.

On that note Hanabi is just looking worse and worse. Of course we're dealing with people vanishing all over the place so she's not the only one looking bad here.

While I can understand Mikuni's thinking this just isn't going to work. If you keep sacrificing the future for the present eventually you are going to run out of the present. Working within this screwed up system isn't going to fix anything. They are just constantly losing no matter what. The only thing to do is take on this structure that is destroying so many lives.
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Old 2011-06-11, 14:07   Link #855
Sumeragi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ipodi View Post
Spoiler for more econ jabber:
Spoiler for Counter Jabber:
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Old 2011-06-11, 14:33   Link #856
FlareKnight
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Spoiler for Counter Jabber:
Wow I haven't seen this much economics chatter since Spice and Wolf . Though great that the debates are sticking in spoiler tags since I'm sure some might get a bit overwhelmed reading through them.
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Old 2011-06-11, 14:47   Link #857
Kaioshin Sama
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This show continues to grow more incomprehensible by the episode. I spent most of the episode laughing at the antics in the Financial District and not taking the drama in the real world seriously at all. The bizarre mishmash of tones in this episode made it easy to not really give a damn about what was going on at all....not that I would have been able to comprehend it anyway.

It's [C], the entire namesake of this show and they didn't even bother building up to or explaining what the heck it is so I just have to guess. My guess is they ran out of future so the Midas Money become worthless and it's as good a guess as any I can come up with.

What else.....oh yeah, Jennifer is always eating in any scene she's in now apparently. That's about it I guess. Only two more episodes of this nonsensical show.....why was this a noitaminA again anyway? It doesn't feel very mature at all and the 11 episodes just flat out killed any appeal it could have had. Should have been a daytime show so they could at least get 26 episodes and maybe have a chance at making a coherent story and cast development. Then again they really only had to cover one plot and one subplot over the course of the last 2 episodes (C and the whole Msyu origin thing) and botched it pretty horribly via the shows continually horrific scene pacing and editing so perhaps this show was DoA like I kind of called it all the way back at episode 1.
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Old 2011-06-11, 16:32   Link #858
Calca
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Singapore? Never heard of it

It isn't on any map. What is this "Singapore" you speak of?

Oh my stocks are down...
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Old 2011-06-11, 17:32   Link #859
SaintessHeart
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Singapore? Never heard of it

It isn't on any map. What is this "Singapore" you speak of?

Oh my stocks are down...
Of course it isn't. It is just too small to see on any normal projection.

But you know it exists because there are some people on this forum who live there.
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When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2011-06-11, 17:40   Link #860
ipodi
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Spoiler for econ stuff:
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