2006-03-26, 04:33 | Link #41 | ||
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And i think at that time there weren't any numbers and specification of the MS. The numbers were probably made up later. I reckon they received hundreds of letters each day asking, how a MS works and what their specification is, eventually you give a office trainee the job to made up some numbers and end up with this mess. As i said there is nothing really wrong with the numbers, if you declare it as a demand list form a client. however to state these numbers as a technnical specification and that it will work is a different thing. Quote:
Small g (or Gee) is, what you have stated, the acceleration due to gravity. Don't mix them up, two differnet things, really. |
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2006-03-26, 09:52 | Link #42 | ||||||
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Also, you obviously didn't read the text. Nowhere they speak about "flailing arms". Quote:
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You're assuming they have no way of actually spreading the energy necessary to shoot, to lessen the damage on the unit's structure, and you're basing that assumption on... nothing. Also, it is officially stated that in the One Year War solid weapons used by Mobile Suits had better range than most Beam Weapons. Considering we see that those beams themselves have quite good range, solid weaponry must be even better ones. Yet again, contradicting your arbitrary statement. There isn't a detailed description of all electric parts of the Zaku. What's next? Will you say that it's worse than a modern car because there isn't a detailed description of its electrical circuits, so it can't possibly move? Quote:
Edit: Besides, the Minovisky Particles mess with all kinds of stuff, even infra-red and electrical circuits have problems. It'll be hard to find something that isn't disturbed by those particles. Quote:
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I'm not saying these numbers are perfect or anything (just look at the acceleration of Zeta's Mobile Armors, most of them would be considered slower than some modern aircraft), but you're really trying to underrate the Zaku's numbers. Besides, most of those numbers are very old. Stats like those aren't published anymore, that's why they're only avaliable for old series. Last edited by NeonZ; 2006-03-26 at 10:30. |
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2006-03-26, 11:35 | Link #43 | ||||||||||||||
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Perhaps you didn't catch my use of the word turret. Quote:
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It doesn't really matter anyways. A "solid weapon" doesn't specifically mean the 120mm. It could quite easily be talking about long-range artillery, which can have dozens of kilometers of range. Quote:
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Besides, even while crouched, a Zaku II is still a bigger target than a Magella. Quote:
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2006-03-26, 13:08 | Link #44 | |||
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Regarding AMBAC: Quote:
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2006-03-26, 13:32 | Link #45 | ||
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However, untill your previous post you keep eveything neat and tidy, that's why i picked on you ^_- just a part of my nature Quote:
how can it be less efficient that pedal movement ? (don't even bother to answer this question ^_- , i reckon you're talking about the advantage of the whole package) |
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2006-03-26, 15:20 | Link #46 | |||
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I don't know if I'm going to get into a mech vs tank discussion in a Gundam forum. (which tend to drag out extremely long and end up in stupidity) I'll just make a post on the unaddressed points and leave it I guess.
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They could also mount 90mm MG on tanks and have far faster rerotation time than a 175mm. Quote:
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2006-03-26, 15:55 | Link #47 | ||||||||||
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Zaku's are clearly shown turning around much faster than any tank turret. I don't know how you can even logically think otherwise. Quote:
We see that Zakus are better than tanks. The Zeon saw that. The Federation saw that. That's why your whole argument makes no sense, this isn't a "vs topic" about two different series. We already saw this battle. We already know the winner. Zakus are clearly superior. Any other answer obviously is wrong. Quote:
I'll look for the quote later. In any case... Another quote from Gundam Century: The Zaku's main weapons were a 105mm rifle, and a 280mm bazooka loaded with nuclear warheads. The 105mm rifle, a product of single-crystal metal technology, was essentially a scaled-up version of the low-recoil machine guns carried by human beings. As a result, the Zaku could dismantle, assemble, and reload its rifle using its own hands. Once loaded with a 100-round drum magazine, this rifle weighed about five tons. So, the Zaku I's machinegun is basically an oversized version of a human machinegun, though that doesn't say much about the Zaku-II's 120mm Machinegun. BTW, in spite of being "Steel" armored, Gundam Century states that its armor is strong enough to be hit by anti-air gunfire without suffering any significant damage. Quote:
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What I mean is that Zakus, thanks to their legs, have more agility, speed and adaptability than any tank, simply because the tank's movement format is limited compared to those legs. That's a huge advantage. Quote:
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In any case, I'd say they stopped using the stats only because they couldn't foresee how technology would actually develop through the next years. The low acceleration stats for Zeta's MAs are the biggest offenders, considering how quickly they became outdated. However, some mangas, like G-Unit, still created stats based on those models, even after they officially disappeared. Quote:
However, wouldn't that extra contact require more energy to move the whole structure? Wouldn't there be more friction? (or attrition, I'm not sure what's the right word because English isn't my main language) The internal parts of a structure can become more efficient, but a random surface can't. Last edited by NeonZ; 2006-03-26 at 16:09. |
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2006-03-26, 19:09 | Link #48 | |
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1. The upper torso of a Zaku doesn't turn nearly as often as the whole machine does, which is faster for both MS and tanks to do than rotate a turret. I'd imagine that a Zaku can turn it's whole body, acquire, and engage a target faster than any tank. 2. Yes. But the amount of ammunition it could carry would be limited.(Another plus for the MS: Quick Reload) 3. *Ahem* |
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2006-03-27, 00:58 | Link #49 | |||||||||||||||
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AMBAC Quote: Its joints were driven by a fluid pulse system, which used a pulse converter to turn the energy produced by the atomic reactor into pulses of pressure within a fluid. Thousands of fluid pipes, finer than human hairs, transmitted these pulses at supersonic speed to the rotary cylinders which drove the joints. This system yielded a higher operating speed than hydraulics, and lower weight and greater structural simplicity than electric motors. Ouch. A spacecraft, however, must eject propellant and use the counter-reaction to turn itself. The propellant consumption is extremely high, and previous space fighters required 2.5 seconds for a 180-degree attitude change and exhausted their propellant after making 30 turns. And double ouch. That's quite amazing. The more they talk about this technology, the more ludicrous it sounds. Quote:
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Gun Quote: The Zaku's main weapons were a 105mm rifle, and a 280mm bazooka loaded with nuclear warheads. The 105mm rifle, a product of single-crystal metal technology, was essentially a scaled-up version of the low-recoil machine guns carried by human beings. As a result, the Zaku could dismantle, assemble, and reload its rifle using its own hands. Once loaded with a 100-round drum magazine, this rifle weighed about five tons. Notice how this quote doesn't say anything about how powerful the gun is, nor does it say anything about range or anything like that. Quote:
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The significance is that effectively none of modern ground combat technologies will be affected by Minovsky Particles. Quote:
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With regards to the newer specifications, I was hoping that they had come to their senses. Quote:
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2006-03-27, 08:45 | Link #50 |
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Question, just for the heck of it: If tanks really are better physics-wise than mechs, why then do the Federation and Zeon (or, really, any of the combatant factions) not use Gundarium-plated tanks? Is it because of having insufficient space to mount a Minovsky ultracompact reactor and a beam "pistol"?
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2006-03-27, 08:56 | Link #51 | |||||||
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The Ambac system doesn't move the suit by itself, it only helps the thrusters with the counter reaction, so they need less fuel than a conventional spacecraft to make faster movements. Basically, there's one main movement, thrust, and then a correction, if necessary. That's it. Quote:
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Besides, we do see those Machineguns damaging battleship armor (In MS IGLOO). They seem to be fairly powerful. They're powerful and have great range, considering how it's stated that those machineguns were also used for sniping, according to a translation of "Roman Album Extra 42", from that same site. http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/a...lbumextra.html The quote about solid vs beam that I mentioned came from one of Tomino's original MSG novels. However, it's just second hand information, because I don't have any of them, and it probably doesn't have much to do with this discussion (because, from what I've heard, in the novel, the war is almost entirely fought in space). Quote:
Large troops, which will be necessary, especially considering how tanks are used (to protect locations which have already been taken, or to move land forces to attack a new place which already has been damaged by aircraft) won't have that advantage, and will just be limited because of their height. Of course, a Mobile Suit is even worse at keeping positions, because they'll be sacrificing their speed and agility advantage, and will be only large targets. However, against tanks, and with decent strategy, Zakus shouldn't need to do that. Quote:
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Of course, the other series needed to base their stats on the first Gundam, so... Quote:
Ok, even assuming that they're better in their own field, there is an explanation. The Zeon used Mobile Suits because they're space based. Accepting the AMBAC system, conventional spacecraft just can't compare to Mobile Suits. In the first moment, they only needed an effective space weapon, and the MS was the best weapon for those battles. The Federation didn't develop a Lunar Titanium tank because it'd be useless for space battles, where the Zeon had their biggest advantage. In later years, the Federation seemed to want to use a single kind of unit. Note that after a few years of using mobile suits, they dropped the support unit Balls (and even support-only MS), using conventional MS with bazookas in their place and also dropped aircraft, starting to develop Mobile Suits that could perform a similar function, the transforming MS seem in Z and ZZ. So, the Federation dropped all other developments to focus on a single type of vehicle which could operate anywhere with minor modifications, the mobile suit. Most Federation's enemies came from space, so, their use of Mobile Suits is basically for the same reason as the Zeon's. Last edited by NeonZ; 2006-03-27 at 09:12. |
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2006-03-27, 09:54 | Link #52 | ||||||
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Simply put, in armored combat, the key is to remain unseen. That's why tank builders have been making them as small as possible. Quote:
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However, after the battle of Odessa, there really wasn't much need for an advanced tank on either side, so I give the creators the benefit of the doubt in this case. In the rest of the UC universe, I believe the only really dedicated terrestrial war machines are seen in Victory. And they had very different design philosophies in that show.
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2006-03-27, 15:04 | Link #53 | ||||
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This technique, which prevented the mobile suit from having to expend any propellant, meant that its arms and legs were not dead weight but rather an effective attitude control system. It's just a system for turns and such things, it doesn't actually propel the MS entirely by itself. Quote:
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It would be hard to make the performance proportional to the smaller model, however, if they actually can do that, isn't that actually good design? The name difference seems fairly minor. It's stated that the "rifle" has a rapid fire mode, so, it's clearly the same thing as the machine gun from the other document, even though there's a naming difference. Quote:
Even a Zaku is faster and has much more agility than one. Of course, if a Zaku stupidly was placed trying to guard a building or something like that it'd get easily destroyed, but in an actual attack duty, it will be much more effective than a Magella. And, though bigger, Zakus also would easily be able to take cover, crouch, crawl, etc... The size problem isn't nearly as big as you think. A Zaku could even use something like a river for cover, it's a much more adaptable machine than a tank. Besides, the Zaku's sensor have better range than the tanks, so, in a battlefield, it would most likely not only be able to see the enemy before them, it'd be able to attack from a very long range, an option that isn't avaliable to the tank, which stays so close to the ground. Now that I think about it, the height wouldn't be only reason for the better range of a Zaku. Zaku's have an entire structure specially used for detection, the main camera/sensors of a Zaku are logically much better than the one of a tank, if both are made using similar technology. I think you're considering only medium range combat, the only situation which would give some kind of advantage to the tank. Close range, you can have a Zaku dancing around a tank, stomping it, or destroying it easily with a single shot. Long range, the tank would be sniped before actually doing anything. Also, as shown and stated, the Zaku's weapons, in spite of your arguments, are clearly effective in the Universal Century. the Magella also lacks a rapid fire weapon. So, the Magella really has no advantage besides size and lower cost. |
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2006-03-27, 18:27 | Link #54 | |||
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Last edited by Commander 598; 2006-03-27 at 19:09. |
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2006-03-27, 22:58 | Link #55 | |||||||||
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If Zaku II's were only fielded as river assault/defense vehicles, then you may have a point about cover. As is, a tank can quite easily assume a hull-down position and present a target profile smaller than the Zaku II's head! Quote:
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Reconaissance is generally left to specialty vehicles - this is one of the reasons for the strength of combined-arms tactics. Quote:
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2006-03-27, 23:38 | Link #56 |
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I just want to add a quick thing. For most of these parts I agree with 4tran. However, most of you have not had a resonable physics education and are mixing up units. HP is not force it is power or the rate at which energy is transfered. pounds force is a redundant phrase and pounds mass is an oxymoron. mass still matters in space because F=MA so more force (therefoe more propelant) is required to change an objects velocity (speed and direction)
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2006-03-27, 23:46 | Link #57 |
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Conceded about M109 turret....
------------------- Anyways, the reason why Mobile Suit is better in Gundam is because Gundam follows anime physics not "real physics." They can basically Bullshit anything the plot required and let the fandom spend hours making up justification for them. One of the worst offenders would be Macross with its missiles that exceed the internal volume of the VF in question. In Gundam, equal phyics rape occur with space combat physics (light saber fights in space DO NOT look like in Gundam, which regularily ignores rotational momentum) and obvious things like God, Wing Zero and Atakasuki-type uber MS (the angle of reflection for the antibeam coating makes no sense). And I'm only talking about ones that offend me while viewing, not when I start doing calculations.... Using anime physics as a basis for debate would result in many, many absurd results. (like anime school girls pwning many skilled martial artists...lets not go there ) Using anime physics, things like Nono (a.k.a. Gunbuster #7) is vastly superior to most battleships in Sci-fi (and would pwn the Death Star 1v1) but that says very little about its validity in design. (a cute girl being the ulitmate combat weapon...hmmm sounds familiar) Forget giant robots, the future army should be populated by mahou shoujo (magical girls) like nanoha and powered natsumi ( http://anime.miao.us/archives/2005/12/04/517/ ) rather than mecha and tanks (actually, I would very much love that...keroro gunso have been better than the last few Gundam offerings) That said, I ask the posters here to stop comparing modern tech to Gundam 0079, a good 100 bloody years after the current day using the offical time line. --------------------------------- Using anime physics shown in Gundam, I'd say MA should rightfully rape MS silly. A MA (Apsalus III) powered by a mere 3 DOM reactors (under 4k BHP output) can dish out low nuclear firepower and have aimbot accuracy while being flight capable (too bad not really shown). Of course, that rapes physics good...... ------------------------- Using real physics however, and realistic scales for everything, a Tank would defeat an mech using equal tech with ease in vast majority of cases. The Tank would be able to mount far larger weapons (as in real sized weapons, not a gun that looks tiny but fires shells 10x larger than it should...60mm vulcan comes to mind) for the same given size and superior armor. If mobility is required and beam weapons perferable, a hover tank would pwn while being vastly cheaper than a mech. (when was the last time a Dom walked? Waste of weight) |
2006-03-28, 00:14 | Link #59 | ||
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From http://www.unc.edu/~rowlett/units/dictP.html: pound (lb, lbm, or #) [1] a traditional unit of mass or weight. <SNIP for length> By international agreement, one avoirdupois pound is equal to exactly 453.592 37 grams; this is exactly 175/144 = 1.215 28 troy pounds. See avoirdupois weights for additional information. The traditional symbol lb stands for libra, the Latin word for the unit. The avoirdupois pound is sometimes abbreviated lb av or lb ap to distinguish it from the less common troy pound.The symbol lbm is used in science to distinguish the pound of mass from the pound of force (lbf): see pound force, below. pound force (lbf or lb) a traditional unit of force. Traditional measuring systems did not distinguish between force and mass units. A force of one pound is simply the gravitational force experienced at the Earth's surface by a mass of one pound. To compute this force, we multiply the mass by the acceleration of gravity, following Newton's law F = ma. Since one pound of mass is 0.453 592 kilograms and the acceleration of gravity averages 9.806 65 meters per second per second at the surface of the Earth, one pound force equals the product of these two numbers, 4.448 221 615 newtons. The symbol lbf should be used for the pound force to distinguish it from the pound of mass. Quote:
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2006-03-28, 04:13 | Link #60 | |
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Hmm, 4Tran, just gleaming over the posts, i Think this discussion is getting to the point of being silly. Although we are to blame for encouraging.
Here are just a few notes: Gundam tech in general: It is SF, and a SF based on a even less scientifc genre of super robots. If you want to pick it apart and say it doesnt make sense it is extremely easy. Even the official gundam materials contradicts themselves and not all issues are addressed either. The attempt to do that is in itself silly. Although I can almost say that almost all of what see consider Sci-Fi can be take a part pretty easily too, as most of the creators arn't exactly engineers and scientist. And the fact that they still need a lot of the Fiction element. AMBAC: That is the concocted rationalization of having giant robots in the show. The motivation at the start was to have giant robots, then come up with pseudoscientifc reasons to justify it. A human shaped object isnt the most efficient design of a gyro-like movement system. So don't watch gundam if this bothers you . Or in fact any mecha anime. There are no mecha anime that is realistic enough to jsutify it, maybe only in the few cases of Patlabour and Votom or GiTS if you count it as mechas. And even then they are not the most practical designs. Quote:
here are some nice pictures of it in offical MS Encyclopedia 2003 http://www.bad-words.com/images/msenc.html Particular this http://www.planetquake.com/gundamuni...aneuvering.jpg |
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