[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 8 Twilight of the golden witch

[Klashikari]

Release date: 31st December 2010 (Comiket 79)

http://d.imagehost.org/0454/ep8.jpg


At last, the final Episode of Umineko no Naku Koro ni has been released.
This thread will serve as a place to discuss with everything related to this specific Episode, and the ending of the franchise.
As such, I strongly suggest you not to proceed if you do not want to be spoiled.

Also, due to the fact this will be the last episode of the franchise with no further information later on, the spoiler thread loses its meaning from this very basis.

Features:
-11 new tracks

[TsundereCake]

Don't mind me (or, please do), just requesting some translations....

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/9127/bern6.jpghttp://img29.imageshack.us/img29/1864/bern7.jpghttp://img718.imageshack.us/img718/9375/lodajp.jpghttp://img412.imageshack.us/img412/7580/1293771788975.jpg

[Terras]

So uh...

So... how exactly does this story end anyway? Who lives and who dies? Who is the culprit even?:eyespin:

[witchfan]

Unless anyone here has actually finished the game, I wouldn't trust the spoilers I read on /jp/ or 2ch. Even disregarding that there's a fair chance they're complete fabrications (Lambdadelta is a cake by the way), at the very least they're completely taken out of context.


Shkanon confirm? I heard it was, but I wanna double check.


If you believe the screens, all we have is an ambiguous screen from Lambdadelta saying (not in red) that Kanon will die when Shannon does. So while Shkanon is implied, we don't know which.

[Klashikari]

I will put emphasis on it again, but please stick to this thread purpose, as in: -discussion- regarding the said Episode (similar to before: opinions, possibly summary etc).
Pointing out elements that aren't understood/taken out of context aren't really a good idea (as already experimented with previous episodes).

And let's not turn this thread into a "can you translate this", otherwise it will be atrocious.

[Judoh]

If you believe the screens, all we have is an ambiguous screen from Lambdadelta saying (not in red) that Kanon will die when Shannon does. So while Shkanon is implied, we don't know which.

That was Bern who said that actually. And yeah it stops just short of confirming it.

I will put emphasis on it again, but please stick to this thread purpose, as in: -discussion- regarding the said Episode (similar to before: opinions, possibly summary etc).
Pointing out elements that aren't understood/taken out of context aren't really a good idea (as already experimented with previous episodes).

And let's not turn this thread into a "can you translate this", otherwise it will be atrocious.

Klash if you make me a mod I'll show those previous episode discussers whose boss. I'm here a lot and I have a high post count. So I can do that.

[Kirroha]

So do we get any answers in this episode?

[zorahk]

Are there any videos of the OP yet?

[Judoh]

Are there any videos of the OP yet?

EP7 Op is the last one.

[MeoTwister5]

So I'm gonna start playing and translating shortly today. Just like my previous attempts on Ep5-8:

1. Combination personal skills, 2 dictionaries and machine translator (30-40-30). It's going to be rough as usual so it's not going to be literal.
2. These will be summaries as usual, not line by line translations. Subject to my own interpretations based on my translations, but as minimal as I possibly can.
3. In case someone asks me again, NO, this is not meant to be a replacement for the work Witch Hunt does. At the end of the day they will always do better work than me, so for the full experience, you're going to want their translation work.
4. Unlike the halfass job I did for Ep7 that I didn't finish due to to school, I'm going to finish this all the way to the choices. I promise.

Summaries begin later today. I am told this game is harder grammatically than previous games. Wish me luck!

Before anything: Chibi Ange Confirmed! I took the following screen myself.

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c212/MeoTwister5/Umineko/YoungAnge.jpg

Also apparently the is made such that it sort of combines all important details with the details of previous games. From my understanding, the mystery can be almost solved based on the details provided in Ep8 alone. I'm making a logic map right now when it's time to solve which I won't post due to heavy spoilers. If anyone wants a copy of the logic map, PM me when I finalize it.

[MeoTwister5]

Episode 8: Twilight of the Golden Witch

First summary. Takes the entirety of the introductory sequence up to the intro movie.

- There are twopeople inside the chapel. They is an older brother 12 years older than his younger sister who is crying into his chest. He tries to comfort her. It is Battler and Ange.
- He mentions she has a golden key hung around her neck and that the time will come where she will need to use it. She doesn't really understand him.
- He tells her it is time to talk about the story of the Rokkenjima incident, and how she will be the one to tell us (?) about it. He says it is time to learn the truth about everyone.
- Battler describes how he seems to have become a permanent fixture there, eternally looping and living the tragedy himself. Ange says she wants to go there. He says he can bring her,as the game master.
- She wonders if the family will welcome her, and he says they will. She wants to be there forever.
- He admonishes her wanting it. He says in the end it is her decision to see the truth here because she'snot supposed to be on the island officially. She has 2 days to discover the miracle to save them all (?). She still insists on wanting to be with him and the family forever.
- He says she will use her key to decidide on what she wants, and the truth(?) as well. She says she will trust him. If she doesn't, he says she should just wake up from this dream. His words scare her. He says her decision will be the final arbiter as to the entire incident.
- (He therefore implies that the final decisions of the mystery are dependent on the truths and decisions Ange comes to, likely as an extension of us, the readers)
- He says she'll give her the choices when the time comes. He already has his answer, and hopes she will have one when the time comes.
- She grasps the key and approaches a book on the altar. She asks if the key is for the book, but he gets angry and says the book is not good.
- She takes his hand and he leads her towards October 6, 1986. To Rokkenjima. The place where it all begins and ends.

Introduction Video

Short intro yes. Chibi Ange YES. From this point on it seems the episode plays out like previous games, only now we can finally know the truth.

Good god I'm so fucking psyched for this! Say goodbye 5h long exam grades!:heh:

[TsundereCake]

From a kind anon on /jp/

***THIS IS FROM THE END OF EPISODE 8*** and waterworks may ensue.

-YyVpNKA7vs
Translation:
I've waited for you, Battlerrr.

I'm sorry. I was a bit late at coming here.

Why are you sitting on a wheelchair?
Here, I'm giving you a hand, get yourself together.

As she was walking, she presented her hand to Battler who was sitting on the wheelchair.
Battler... slowly... gripped that hand, and... slowly... stood up.

I...

Listen... here, all of us have finally met again.
Tonight, the Golden Land revives here.

Without stopping, the clapping blessed Battler.

Everyone was there.
Everyone. Everyone. Everyone.

And then, Beato hugged Battler.
Stronger and stronger, as if never parting with him again, she hugged him.

You really... came back.

I'm back... late, though.

I... won't let you go again.

Indeed. I won't let you go away either.

We'll be together... forever.

[Kataryn]

Before anything: Chibi Ange Confirmed! I took the following screen myself.

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c212/MeoTwister5/Umineko/YoungAnge.jpg

.


I don't get it. How can a 6 year old have boobs? They're bigger then Maria's!

[LyricalAura]

I'd just like to say that EP8 Kinzo is the best Kinzo.

[Mikachiru]

Snip

Yah, Battler's lost it! Or maybe he was always insane... XD

[Marina2]

To save everyone time, and to help people who can't read Japanese, this is the answers to those choices questions.

From what I see, the questions' order won't change and the correct choices will alway be the same.


(Question number 1 is the first one you see in the game)
1. A
2. A
3 .B
4. D
5. C
6. D
7. E
8. A
9. B
10. C
11. B
12. E
13. A
14. C
15. E
16. C
(That's all of them)


Tip: If you can't read Japanese, you can know that your answer is correct by looking at Ange's face expression. Also, you will get 1 coin if the answer is right.


P.S. I also can't read Japanese. I have used a lot of guess power especially those 5 choices question - -''

[MeoTwister5]

To save everyone time, and to help people who can't read Japanese, this is the answers to those choices questions.


(Question number 1 is the first one you see in the game)
1. A
2. A
3 .B
4. D
5. C
6. D
7. E
8. A
9. B
10. C
11. B
12. E
13.
(more may come)


From what I see, the questions' order won't change and the correct choices will alway be the same.

Do you automatically get a bad ending if you make a wrong choice?

[Renall]

To save everyone time, and to help people who can't read Japanese, this is the answers to those choices questions. (You can konw that your answer is correct by looking at Ange's face expression and you will get 1 coin if the answer is right.


(Question number 1 is the first one you see in the game)
1. A
2. A
3 .B
4. D
5. C
6. D
7. E
8. A
9. B
10. C
11. B
12. E
13. A
14. C
15. E
(more may come)


From what I see, the questions' order won't change and the correct choices will alway be the same.

P.S. I also can't read Japanese. It requires a lot of guess power especially those 5 choices question - -''There shouldn't be any others. Only 15 questions are in the files. It doesn't look like they're randomized in any way, so they just appear at pretedermined points in the story and are always the same.

[Arachanox]

Do you automatically get a bad ending if you make a wrong choice?

Just played through it all. From what I can tell, and my views are somewhat subjective because I can't read Japanese, this:


I'm not sure what the coins do. They may be related to some sort of secret ending like some people speculate, but I really don't know. Regardless, I guessed through the entire puzzle and ended up with a measly 4 coins. I'll save you spoilers, but, you can still get a 'good end' even without 100% coins.


edit: Also, anyone can feel free to ask me a few questions (as long as they don't involve too much detail - I caught the gist of the episode but not much more). I'll try to verify/debunk any rumors you might have heard.

[AuraTwilight]

The coins are for unlocking Music Box tracks, I think.

[Arachanox]

The coins are for unlocking Music Box tracks, I think.

I collected four coins and have all 11 tracks regardless.

[MeoTwister5]

Just played through it all. From what I can tell, and my views are somewhat subjective because I can't read Japanese, this:


I'm not sure what the coins do. They may be related to some sort of secret ending like some people speculate, but I really don't know. Regardless, I guessed through the entire puzzle and ended up with a measly 4 coins. I'll save you spoilers, but, you can still get a 'good end' even without 100% coins.


edit: Also, anyone can feel free to ask me a few questions (as long as they don't involve too much detail - I caught the gist of the episode but not much more). I'll try to verify/debunk any rumors you might have heard.

Did you get different endings with different combination of choices? I assume you don't get immediately ushered to a bad ending if you make enough mistakes?

Anyway summaries. Take the start of their arrival on Rokkenjima and Ange and Battler's Meta talk.

Rokkenjima October 4,1986
- Battler is puking on the ship as Ange and Maria make fun of him. The adults and the remaining children enjoy their trip saying that it's the first time everyone in the family came to the island complete. Kyrie says it's almost a miracle Ange suddenly got better and joined them.
- Maria and Ange continue to make fun of Battler as they arrive on the island.
- On arrival, Battler dives into the flower fields and the two younger girls argue who was first to get on the mansion grounds. George and Battler tease each other.
- Shannon tells Krauss and Natsuhi that the family has arrived. They order to to start preparing the rooms and the tea and tell Kinzo.
- Krauss goes to Kinzo's room and meets Nanjo. Inside is... uh... some form of Kinzo that's really not the Kinzo we know of. A more bizarre incarnation of sorts, though he's supposed to be dead, so this is itself questionable.
- Shannon helps Gohda prepare tea. He explains to her the concept of restaurant food's taste and customer preferences. Kumasawa says it is a servants duty to know what their masters like. Genji checks on them.
- A call comes telling Shannon and Kumasawa to lead the family, Gohda to finish the tea and Kanon to prepare the rooms.
- Kanon attends to the family. Krauss and Natsuhi greet them, saying it is fortunate Ange was able to come. Maria says magic helped Ange. Adults mention that Battler has grown in six years. The other kids say they were surprised on seeing him. They feel a bit of pity for what he had to go through. Everyone makes fun of his motion sickness.
- Rosa asks Ange and Maria to stop running around. Shannon brings in the tea. They gossip a bit about clothes and stuff.
- With the tea are halloween style cookies that fascinates Maria. She notices that the tea smells of pumpkins. Everyone compliments the tea.
- Crazy... uh... version of Kinzo arrives and wishes everyone a happy halloween. Trick or treat! The adults are embvarassed. Ange doesn't get it. He greets his grandkids. Ange hands Kinzo a gift from Kyrie. Genji tells Kinzo that he's acting like a kid. Kinzo apologizes for not having cake.
- Crazy Kinzo hands Maria a gift. He fawns over her as Genji gives up reminding him to act with dignity. The other kids hand Kinzo their presents.
- Battler greets him, and Kinzo is just ecstatic that he's back and embraces him. Ange is just confused.
- Narrator (Ange?) is confused that Crazy Kinzo is not the stern and angry Kinzo she had always heard of in previous games. Kinzo however shows a serious face when she presents her gift. At that point, he bursts into tears and exclaims that he's happy to have such wonderful grandkids. He's crying already.
- Ange finds this entire yearly tradition odd, especially all this gift giving. This isn't the family conference she knows. Gohda arrives to usher them for lunch.
- Shannon and Kanon will bring the presents to the rooms. The family sits in a less restrictive manner so conversations gowell. Everyone speaks freely and comfortably. Even Crazy Kinzo joins them. They're all happy it seems.
- They talk about the incoming bad weather and how Kinzo doesn't leave the island. He says he wants to live alone with his family because he is old. The children decide to go to the beach and the rose garden after eating. They'll have a contest on who can pick the most beautiful stone on the beach.
- The kids play on the beach. Ange is a bit down it seems and apart from the other cousins. Battler knows something is wrong but she doesn't want to talk about it.
- They return to the guest house as the clouds darken and the wind picks up. At the guesthouse Maria shows Rosa the stone she got. Jessica goes back to her room. George now notices that Ange is feeling down. He returns to the guesthouse. Battler seems tounderstand what is wrong with her. They both take a walk around the garden.
- They start their meta talk. Ange doesn't feel right with this happy setting, but Battler says this is indeed Rokkenjima on October 4, 1986. She is irritated by the fact that this Kinzo is a happy crazy person.
- Ange is in a fit about Kinzo's entire personality and temperament. He's supposed to be a severe, controlling and eccentric person. Battler suggests that this is probably the way outsiders view Kinzo (?), but in reality Kinzo is much different to his family (?).
- Battler suggests that the parents probably also propagated this sort of view on their grandfather. Ange feels scared. She claims to remember his as a scary person. She insists on what she knows.
- He admits that he still dabbled in the occult at times. He says that perhaps Ange doesn't really "remember"the truth. She refuses to believe it.
- She also refuses to believe that no one is discussing the inheritance. She remembers the bickering and the violent arguments. He explains what she seems to believe about the discussion. She asks if this will happen. He asks why she refuses to accept what she is experiencing now.
- She wants to know why he's showing her these things. She wants to know the truth of the game since the witches have been toying with them for so long. He says this is still his game, therefore it is his story. She calls bullshit. She insists he is lying to her.
- Battler's intentions here is to show Ange something more than a simple truth. He is still inheriting the game from Beato. He says he wants to show it to Ange, but she says she came here to know the truth and not some sweet fantasy.
- She throws a fit saying she'll find the truth herself. She doesn't want to lose anyone. She will act on her own and not necessarily with Battler.

[Arachanox]

Did you get different endings with different combination of choices? I assume you don't get immediately ushered to a bad ending if you make enough mistakes?

Anyway summaries. Take the start of their arrival on Rokkenjima and Ange and Battler's Meta talk.

Rokkenjima October 4,1986
- Battler is puking on the ship as Ange and Maria make fun of him. The adults and the remaining children enjoy their trip saying that it's the first time everyone in the family came to the island complete. Kyrie says it's almost a miracle Ange suddenly got better and joined them.
- Maria and Ange continue to make fun of Battler as they arrive on the island.
- On arrival, Battler dives into the flower fields and the two younger girls argue who was first to get on the mansion grounds. George and Battler tease each other.
- Shannon tells Krauss and Natsuhi that the family has arrived. They order to to start preparing the rooms and the tea and tell Kinzo.
- Krauss goes to Kinzo's room and meets Nanjo. Inside is... uh... some form of Kinzo that's really not the Kinzo we know of. A more bizarre incarnation of sorts, though he's supposed to be dead, so this is itself questionable.
- Shannon helps Gohda prepare tea. He explains to her the concept of restaurant food's taste and customer preferences. Kumasawa says it is a servants duty to know what their masters like. Genji checks on them.
- A call comes telling Shannon and Kumasawa to lead the family, Gohda to finish the tea and Kanon to prepare the rooms.
- Kanon attends to the family. Krauss and Natsuhi greet them, saying it is fortunate Ange was able to come. Maria says magic helped Ange. Adults mention that Battler has grown in six years. The other kids say they were surprised on seeing him. They feel a bit of pity for what he had to go through. Everyone makes fun of his motion sickness.
- Rosa asks Ange and Maria to stop running around. Shannon brings in the tea. They gossip a bit about clothes and stuff.
- With the tea are halloween style cookies that fascinates Maria. She notices that the tea smells of pumpkins. Everyone compliments the tea.
- Crazy... uh... version of Kinzo arrives and wishes everyone a happy halloween. Trick or treat! The adults are embvarassed. Ange doesn't get it. He greets his grandkids. Ange hands Kinzo a gift from Kyrie. Genji tells Kinzo that he's acting like a kid. Kinzo apologizes for not having cake.
- Crazy Kinzo hands Maria a gift. He fawns over her as Genji gives up reminding him to act with dignity. The other kids hand Kinzo their presents.
- Battler greets him, and Kinzo is just ecstatic that he's back and embraces him. Ange is just confused.
- Narrator (Ange?) is confused that Crazy Kinzo is not the stern and angry Kinzo she had always heard of in previous games. Kinzo however shows a serious face when she presents her gift. At that point, he bursts into tears and exclaims that he's happy to have such wonderful grandkids. He's crying already.
- Ange finds this entire yearly tradition odd, especially all this gift giving. This isn't the family conference she knows. Gohda arrives to usher them for lunch.
- Shannon and Kanon will bring the presents to the rooms. The family sits in a less restrictive manner so conversations gowell. Everyone speaks freely and comfortably. Even Crazy Kinzo joins them. They're all happy it seems.
- They talk about the incoming bad weather and how Kinzo doesn't leave the island. He says he wants to live alone with his family because he is old. The children decide to go to the beach and the rose garden after eating. They'll have a contest on who can pick the most beautiful stone on the beach.
- The kids play on the beach. Ange is a bit down it seems and apart from the other cousins. Battler knows something is wrong but she doesn't want to talk about it.
- They return to the guest house as the clouds darken and the wind picks up. At the guesthouse Maria shows Rosa the stone she got. Jessica goes back to her room. George now notices that Ange is feeling down. He returns to the guesthouse. Battler seems tounderstand what is wrong with her. They both take a walk around the garden.
- They start their meta talk. Ange doesn't feel right with this happy setting, but Battler says this is indeed Rokkenjima on October 4, 1986. She is irritated by the fact that this Kinzo is a happy crazy person.
- Ange is in a fit about Kinzo's entire personality and temperament. He's supposed to be a severe, controlling and eccentric person. Battler suggests that this is probably the way outsiders view Kinzo (?), but in reality Kinzo is much different to his family (?).
- Battler suggests that the parents probably also propagated this sort of view on their grandfather. Ange feels scared. She claims to remember his as a scary person. She insists on what she knows.
- He admits that he still dabbled in the occult at times. He says that perhaps Ange doesn't really "remember"the truth. She refuses to believe it.
- She also refuses to believe that no one is discussing the inheritance. She remembers the bickering and the violent arguments. He explains what she seems to believe about the discussion. She asks if this will happen. He asks why she refuses to accept what she is experiencing now.
- She wants to know why he's showing her these things. She wants to know the truth of the game since the witches have been toying with them for so long. He says this is still his game, therefore it is his story. She calls bullshit. She insists he is lying to her.
- Battler's intentions here is to show Ange something more than a simple truth. He is still inheriting the game from Beato. He says he wants to show it to Ange, but she says she came here to know the truth and not some sweet fantasy.
- She throws a fit saying she'll find the truth herself. She doesn't want to lose anyone. She will act on her own and not necessarily with Battler.

Honestly I don't know whta the coins or for or if they even do anything. The next thing I need to do is get a 100% on the coin game, and then choose the Trick/Magic options again. But honestly, I've looked through the game's code specifically for special endings, and I don't think there is one. Honestly tho, the Magic after-end roll ending is nice enough for me :)

[Mikachiru]

I'm very curious about the coins. No one seems to know what they do. Kind of odd.

[Arachanox]

I'm very curious about the coins. No one seems to know what they do. Kind of odd.

As I type this, I am reviewing the final ??? with 100% coins to look for any changes.

[Arachanox]

No good. I'm at a loss. I don't know what the coins are for, if anything. But I have tried non-complete coins Magic/Trick endings, and complete coins Magic/Trick endings, and they are the same. So...a secret ending is either nonexistent or based on the Murder Game.

I give up for tonight. I'll be around for a bit longer and then I'm going to bed. Happy New Years' everyone!

[Cross Clown]

I think maybe you're going to have to be forced to go through the whole thing again.

[Arachanox]

I think maybe you're going to have to be forced to go through the whole thing again.

I considered this, but I realized "how would the game's save files even know the difference?"

Honestly, the save file is just a point in a gigantic script, it doesn't carry baggage like "coins collected or no?"

I believe that data is stored in the game's code itself, not within the individual save files. Then again, my knowledge of the onscripter code is not optimal, so I might be wrong. SOMEONE GO FIND THE SECRET ENDING :D

[MeoTwister5]

More summaries here. Contains the meeting of Battler and Ange with Beato and the discussion in the distinguished guest room.

- Back to the garden, the weather shifts. He intends to go back to the guesthouse. A golden mist seems to cover the garden. She notices some sort of figure going down to the port.
- Beato arrives and Battler greets. He introduces Ange to Beato, that she is the witch of gold and all that people think she is on the island. Ange says she'snot the scary witch she was taught to believe. She's more the witch Maria describes.
- Battler and Beato talk. She notices Ange's key. She says with the key Ange can finally decide on her own. She and Battler are merely guides. No one can take the key from Ange due to magic. Ange still doesn't believe in such magic.
- She wants proof of Beato's magic. Beato shows her left hand. Ange checks it around. Beato sticks out her index finger and waves her left hand around. Ange tries to follow but loses sight eventually. Beatoopens her hand and shows candy. Ange thinks it's a trick. He says it may as well be magic.
- Beato and Battler kid around a bit like old friends. They decide to return to the guesthouse.
- In the distinguished guestroom Kinzo and Beato have a good chat. They talk about how Battler has changed. Ange wonders a bit about the relationship. Genji arrives with Krauss and Natsuhi. Ange is by the window.
- Everyone has a seat. Beato was initially worried that Ange doesn't like her. Battler disagrees but Beato says he doesn't really understand a woman's heart.
- Kinzo thanks her for her help in the past. Everyone also thanks her. They speak about the 10t of gold. They say how the familyline was ruined but the gold she gave saved it.
- Kinzo says with his age this may be the last time they ever meet. They may not meet next year again. Kinzo says he has a story to tell.
- Kinzo recounts the story of the family fall and the miracle of the gold from Beato. He says it is Beato's.
- Krauss accepts that he may not inherit the wealth, though says it is hard to accept it. The family will accept returning the gold to Beato.
- Kinzo will not divide up the estate (sans gold?) between the family members. Battler and Beato talk by the window. She says her long wait is over. Her loneliness is over, Battler suggests (?). They reminisce (?) over their past experiences like a couple.
- They explain to Ange that this isn't simply a mystery to solve, but a story about one's perceptions on truth. The key she has then is her key to open the cat box (nekohako). She has the power to choose and believe what she wants to. She is still irate, wanting to know the absolute truth of the incident.
- She still wants to know the truth of the culprit, and Beato asks why she's so intent in being right. Ange wants to know why the message bottles were set adrift. (Probable mistranslation: I do believe she answers that it adds depth to the mystery?). She likens it to Agatha Christie's novel.
- Ange accusses her of stirring up chaos and anger with the gold and her supposed magic, planned the murders, to achieve some goal. Beato is evasive and this angers Ange.
- Ange says she will reach the truth of Beato without Battler if she has to. She throws another fit. Battler asks them to stop arguing. They are tired, and Beato asks Genji to take Battler and Ange to the guesthouse.
- Ange is sleepy now as he takes her to the rooms. Kinzo prepares the inheritance before his life ends they discuss with Genji. He says that now, the family is out of Beato's responsibility. There will be a party where the gold is handed over and returned and the inheritance is set in place. Genji says Kinzo is now closing the book on his lifeand passing it on.
- Ange falls asleep in Battler's arms. They reach the guest house.

I'm hooked no matter what the ending is. I might try a whole 24 hour run, sanity willing.

I've also mentally erased my spoilered biases based on the stuff people posted from 2ch. As it stands, yes, I'm really getting the feeling that a heartwarming true ending may never occur...

[hilly]

The puzzle remind me of EP 5,Erika's quiz. Erika mention a question can lead to several answer by thinking out of the box and other reasoning than the authentic answer.Maybe that would mean there are 'other answer' than the correct answer with different reasoning.
So,maybe,just maybe,you must thinking out of box and get the 'wrong but right' answer to get different ending?Then you can get a new "fantasy' ending?
But this may as well R7 try to troll us,so I can't say for sure unless some1 can post the puzzle to discuss in this thread to see if there are other reasoning to choose the 'other answer"?

[Arachanox]

Update regarding the coins. And I kind of noticed this myself but didn't realize it until someone pointed it out.

There are at least 1 'special scenes' which give out a few extra clues, dispersed through the game. The more coins you have, the more scenes you see. For instance, on my first play through, I did not see a scene where

Rudolf explicitly says that Battler is Kyrie's and his son

but I did see it on the 100% playthrough. This may be my bad memory, or the purpose of the coins.

[MeoTwister5]

Update regarding the coins. And I kind of noticed this myself but didn't realize it until someone pointed it out.

There are at least 1 'special scenes' which give out a few extra clues, dispersed through the game. The more coins you have, the more scenes you see. For instance, on my first play through, I did not see a scene where

Rudolf explicitly says that Battler is Kyrie's and his son

but I did see it on the 100% playthrough. This may be my bad memory, or the purpose of the coins.

At what point exactly do you need to have the coins you gathered and start getting the bonus scenes?

Anyway I'm gonna start posting my notes on my blog as a whole rather than in bits, aside from this thread, for anyone who wants references.

[Mikachiru]

When does the coin thing happen? Before the murder game, right? And do we even get a reason for why Rudolph switched the babies?

[Arachanox]

@imbehindyou: when I played at not 100%, I had only 4 coins instead of all of them. Answering the murder quiz (in my opinion, unverified) incorrectly does nothing since the game can't advance until you do answer it correctly.

At what point exactly do you need to have the coins you gathered and start getting the bonus scenes?

Anyway I'm gonna start posting my notes on my blog as a whole rather than in bits, aside from this thread, for anyone who wants references.

The only bonus scene I am aware right now is the Parentage one, and it appears very soon after the end of the coin riddles.

edit: Yes Mikachiru; after coin riddles, before murder quiz.

[MeoTwister5]

I will admit my feelings for the ??? are mixed, but I know I haven't read the real thing in plain English yet. Even still, the talk about what it is truly about is a bit unsettling - but even if those rumors are true, I think I can still accept it as the truth.

And what an unexpected truth it is.

edit: @fer: Ryukishi said the mystery was done in EP7. A lot of the people who 'feel cheated' and are raging in general either had the wrong expectations or are just going on false-rumor-fueled ragetrips (specifically /jp/).

Well that's why we're here right, to quell rumors with actual facts.:heh:

Anyway more summaries before I take a bath. This is the entirety of 1998 Ange and her metascenes.

Metascene
- Narrator ponders the possibilites of the murders and whether a bomb did go off and at what time. It might have been possible that some sort of bomb does go off at midnight before October 6, 1986, based on the clock in the mansion. He suggests the possibility that this is Kinzo'swork.
- The explanation comes from Ootsuki, who is explaining the popular theories. He talks about the approaches people have when investigating. He seems to be talkign directly to the reader?
- He reiterates the belief that Eva survived by hiding at Kuwadorian through the passage, and at midnight the disaster happened. Ange continues that with this event, the evidence is erased and the true fate of the family becomes unknown. Some theorists think that Eva knew of the bomb tied to the clock and activated it. Eva refused to comment about the events at all, claiming not to remember.
- (this refers to Episode 3 events btw)
- Ootsuki says without Eva the catbox remained essentially closed, and she died leaving it unopened. Without the truth, the only conclusion is that she did it all. They all called her criminal, whether it is true or not, because it remained the only possible explanation.
- Further police investigations revealed nothing more. Ange feels hate for her and her silence.

1998
- Amakusa and Ange are riding on a highway and talking. Amakusa talks about his mercenary days and his experiences in war, especially suicide bombers and child soldiers. He speaks about how for some, revenge is their reason for fighting.
- He talks about how even kids, when given a gun, kill when fuelled with revenge. The kids are bred and made to be soldiers. Ange says she doesn't want to feel revenge anymore.
- They discuss her leap from the building and their journey. Much of this sounds like banter so I won't type it up.
- They eventually speak about the nature of this journey, and how even the police never managed to discover anything incriminating. Amakusa seems to suggest that at least at one time, Ange was fuelled by revenge and regret.
- She then realizes she likens herself to those child soldiers who live in anger and hatred, fuelled by the need to exact revenge on those who wronged her. Exposing the truth might get her the revenge she wants.
- In her sleep, Ange wonders why Battler insists on not flat out giving her the truth. She wonders what is going on with Battler's mind that he prefers a more roundabout way of doing this.

So I've decided to post my entire notes online on my blog. For better reference, since it's exactly the same, you can find it here.

Twilight of the Golden Witch Summaries. (http://meotwister5.wordpress.com/summaries-of-twilight-of-the-golden-witch/)

[Klashikari]

I'm still reading it, but you know what is actually amusing?
It is that most complains are based on impressions and -interpretations- that aren't their own. It is a bit funny to see critics and so forth regarding spoilers and others elements that potentially lack the context at hand.

That reminds me how so many people were misunderstanding what happened with Eva back with Episode 7.

For now, I'm past the point after a "Fantasy/Mystery" brawling bash, and I still enjoy this episode immensily, because of the high dose of awesome.
I don't have any idea what's left, but I will keep my judgement once -I- finish reading, not based on interpreted points that aren't under my "own" bias.

By the way, this episode just confirms a lot of things I was expecting from Bern. In fact, it just brings me a grin for quite a while.

[MeoTwister5]

I'm still reading it, but you know what is actually amusing?
It is that most complains are based on impressions and -interpretations- that aren't their own. It is a bit funny to see critics and so forth regarding spoilers and others elements that potentially lack the context at hand.

That reminds me how so many people were misunderstand what happened with Eva back with Episode 7.

For now, I'm past the point after a "Fantasy/Mystery" brawling bash, and I still enjoy this episode immensily, because of the high dose of awesome.
I don't have any idea what's left, but I will keep my judgement once -I- finish reading, not based on interpreted points that aren't under my "own" bias.

Well that's not to say that such speculations are wrong. For those who can't get access to the game right now, this is pretty much all they can rely on. I wanted to come out and question those who were making wide ranging conclusions and interpretations of the game if they actually played it before saying such things, but that would be rather arrogant of me.

This was the reason why I had to mentally filter out the spoiler thread contents that I read when the game came given the chaotic amount of stuff people were posting everywhere so that at least I wouldn't start playing already biased.

I do have a suggestion for this: perhaps open the spoilers and speculations thread again for those who have not yet played the game and are basing their posts on second hand information. At the very least it's still speculative in nature and content, and we could limit this thread for those who have actually played the game so that first hand and second hand information that jive and clash don't muddle up the entire scene.

I don't really blame them though. It's kind of like the news these days. So much biased bullshit that it's hard to separate fact from interpretation. I'm not immune to this, and most of my summaries are still subject to such bias even though I'm trying my best to minimize them.

[Klashikari]

Acknowledged. I did not see any purpose for the spoiler and speculation thread, but so long a clear run through of the game isn't available, even the information given by those who are reading is being warped to some extent.

I will open the spoiler thread again, although it shall serve for them alone. Episode 7 is -solely- destined from true elements of that episode only, along with opinions. Questions and the likes must be directed in the other thread.

I will clean up this thread whenever I have the time for that. However, I will take harsh measure should I see fit.

[witchfan]

I think Klash makes a fair point here; without reading the story, we really don't know how good it is. I'll make a bolder point: EP8 is going to be a highly enjoyable read, even if you don't like the solution. There's something to the formula of unexpected twists, logic duels, great music and bittersweet endings that would make almost anyone sold on this.

However, I do believe that spoilers should be given a little more credibility when they have to do with the content of the mystery in itself. There's less room for personal interpretation as far as these go (the culprit is the culprit regardless of how epic the revelation is, and you can't go wrong with this trivial a motive either). And in the end, I really don't want to see Umineko as a work that, while really fun to read, is inconsistent, incomplete, and poor as a mystery.

I still do have my doubts, though, and what I wrote shouldn't be taken too seriously. I suppose I am just a bit too frustrated at these supposed spoilers.

e- I would appreciate if you don't delete what people wrote so far. At the very least, move it to Spoilers & Speculations, as, while you may disagree with us, we do make several points worthy of a discussion.

[Klashikari]

I do not claim there is no credibility with spoilers.
Why, as there are people reading the tale after all.

However, I think it is something that was ironically already addressed in umineko: the interpretation of the tale is extremely personal, especially the direction of the story (not the facts themselves) are quite ambiguous.
Mystery? Fantasy?

Actually, the more I think about it, the more like people are acting like Ange. I sure do not deny that I was as pissed as Chibi Ange with Battler's charades at first, but if you think more about it, the truth itself isn't the only important thing, especially for the readers who aren't -personally implicated- by the events.

This is why I find odd for people to be trigger happy, while they do not have the correct reading. When you see a red text, it can also be vastly different with the little chat before and after that.
This is the same this time, albeit you have more noise (personal interpretation/translation).

Hence, I believe it is just too ironic for some of us to criticize the tale, when they didn't read it themselves.
In fact, the whole situation is -extremely- similar to the "goat madness" scene. It almost look like Ryukishi expected that...

[MeoTwister5]

It's almost like Ryukishi already KNEW people would be acting like this and purposely made chibi Ange act like a narrowminded observer to parody his own readership on a meta level. So while people criticize Ange and the episode they're also indirectly criticizing themselves on a metameta level. Ange is meant as the representation of a particular demographic as if Ryukishi almost perfectly understood some readers, their reactions and their conclusions perfectly like some metametameta existence.

Goddammit Ryukishi get out of my head arghh;wsldkqlkwdjqlkwjddifuoiwefd

Summary! This details the start of the turnover ceremony come halloween party up to Ange choosing a slice:

October 4,1986
- It begins to rain as the children play cards in the guesthouse. Battler is winning. They talk about the food and the halloween party Shannon told them of. Ange knocks after waking up from sleeping in their parent's room. Kyrie and Rudolph arrive too and asks them about the food.
- Kanon arrives with Hideyoshi to usher everyone to the party. Everyone else is outside the rooms and ready to go. The adults are doting all over Ange. Everyone heads to the mansion.
- The main room is designed in a halloween theme. Beato is there in her dress. They thank her for this party. The party is also to celebrate the turnover. Battler and Ange have a short talk then she goes over to Eva.
- Genji starts the handover ceremony. A goldingot with a red bow is presented. Kinzo hands it over to her in a symbolic gesture. Beato acknowledges the fulfillment of the agreement between her grandmother and Kinzo many years ago. Platitudes and all that. Everyone approves.
- The distribution of inheritance was announced. He will give it out while he is still alive. The adults feel a bit of guilt and are teary-eyed. Everyone parties on.
- The adults are united to support a new head. The children and the servants applaude.
- Ange is rather mystified by this, as in her own experiences the adults bicker and fight over the money. She still sees this all as a farce of Battler's game.
- Ange wants this truth in red, and Battler respons with a possibility that if this cannot be said in red, then is it automatically a lie? Ange becomes silent in her refusal to believe.
- Ange remembers how given the twists and turns of the games, red was the only thing she could rely on as truth. As long as it is not denied, she is entitled to her own truths. She will decide her own truths.
- Clock hits 1am, champagne is opened and the party continues courtesy of Gohda. Everyone's mixing and having a damn good time. Beato performs some of her magic. Ange has a drink from Rudolph's alcohol. She becomes all excited and the adults make fun of her.
- Battler and Beato have a talk about their games and their responsibilities when they were game masters. They agree that they allowed Ange here so that she can finally put the closing to the truth of the incident with her key. Right now they just want to enjoy the evening. Everyone has made splendid performances.
- Gohda brings in a Sacher cake (probably as Sacher torte, a type of chocolate cake in Austria I think) in the form of a winged crest. He and Kinzo say there's a secret in the cake. The girsl say almonds. The one who gets the almond in the cake becomes "king" for tonight (King's game most likely). The king gets one wish.
- Ange is allowed the first pick of the cake, but of course says that she has lower chances of getting it right at 1/15 probability.
- CHOOSE YOUR CAKE SLICE! (I have no idea if this even matters).
- When Ange chooses, Gohda slices. Ange makes a meta-allusion of this to the catbox, that you never really know until you decide to open it, and even then there is already a predetermined result.
- Ange checks around to see if someone got the almond. None of the others got it so Battler asks Ange to check hers. She finds an almond in her cake, but so does Eva. Krauss asks why there are two almonds. The servants are a bit confused. Gohda admits it may be his mistake and says maybe they should play jakenpon.

I'll update the full summary at the blog later.

The 15 item quiz game is about to begin. I've decided to try and translate the game questions and answers including screenshots and whatnot. Give me a while to do them. If my OCR works and the Kanji isn't too hard for me to read it shouldn't take too long. I hope.

[witchfan]

Don't take other people's impressions so lightly. We often decide on whether to go watch a movie, or read a book, depending on reviews by people who already experienced the work. If these reviews did not provide ample data for us to form at least basic opinions about the work, nobody would bother reading them before deciding what to watch, or read. While our impressions are not as impartial as those of a person who's had firsthand access to the work, we can still complain something is "apparently not all we hoped it would be". We don't know how correct we are, sure, but we aren't being blindly trigger happy either.

But, I do understand what you're saying. Umineko is a work especially suspect to personal opinion (I believe the fanbase is one of the most broken I've seen). As such, while I already said what I think about the spoilers, I'll try not to jump into conclusions before I've read it. I do admit I was a little trigger happy (that doesn't mean I was wrong, though...).

And hey, if I was right, maybe he'll resolve this mess in a supposed Umineko Rei.

(By the way, I just watched the quiz part in a stream, you get a glimpse of Genji and Kinzo's past, so that's nice.)

[MeoTwister5]

My apologies but I've decided to forgo translating the 15 questions. I can answer some of them just fine with my limited skills but it's too time consuming to translate all of them here. I can translate them enough for myself to answer some of them, but not accurately enough based on their original forms for others to read and comprehend on their own, especially the longer ones. A good lot of these involve vocabulary questions that require familiarity with the language to understand. The others are abstract/logic pattern recognition quizzes and the rest and analysis questions,which are easier to solve for me. I will proceed on the assumption that you guys can answer them with the right choices that were posted around here. Again, sorry.

[witchfan]

Translation of most of the Prof. Layton questions can be found with a google search. (Edit: I think I found all of them, actually).

Witch Hunt is going to have a hell of a time translating these to make sense to someone who doesn't know a bit of moonspeak... if they even bother. I don't think I got any knowledge question right. Should find an answer sheet to check though.

[MeoTwister5]

Translation of most of the Prof. Layton questions can be found with a google search. (Edit: I think I found all of them, actually).

Witch Hunt is going to have a hell of a time translating these to make sense to someone who doesn't know a bit of moonspeak... if they even bother. I don't think I got any knowledge question right.

I couldn't even answer the hiragana questions, the Japanese trivia ones and the harder language ones. I managed to answer the first one regarding Christmas, the piano keys one and a few more. I screwed up the building question and the atomic numbers question. I can say that the difficult part in this is that, even in English, it STILL requires reader knowledge in Japanese vocabulary and grammar.

[Sherringford]

It's almost like Ryukishi already KNEW people would be acting like this and purposely made chibi Ange act like a narrowminded observer to parody his own readership on a meta level. So while people criticize Ange and the episode they're also indirectly criticizing themselves on a metameta level. Ange is meant as the representation of a particular demographic as if Ryukishi almost perfectly understood some readers, their reactions and their conclusions perfectly like some metametameta existence.

I think most people believe that acknowledging that some will find your writing to be bad and preemptively attacking those people does not generally change the quality of your writing; it just makes you pretentious.

[MeoTwister5]

Final summaries before I sleep. This is the entirety of the quiz game sans the actual questions and solutions due to translating problems.

The Fifteen Quizzes

(I'm not going to detail the quizzes because I'm going to answer them in their correct form. It takes too long to ACCURATELY translate them and I'm not good enough to do that for others to read and take as the original form. Some of these are Japanese vocabulary quizzes on Katakana and Hiragana, which needs a degree of language familiarity to even comprehend. The others are abstract/logic pattern recognition quizzes and the rest and analysis questions, which are easier to solve for me.)

- At quiz 1 (Kinzo), we get some background on the memories of Genji and Kinzo's friendship with Beato. She asks Ange to one day recall the smile she shows Kinzo.
- Ange looks around on who will ask next. She has problems choosing the next questioner.
- At quiz 2 and 3 (Hideyoshi and Eva), we get a scene on Eva and Hideyoshi, which shows that they are rather nice people in reality. Eva calls herself a bad mother for the way she acts, but Hideyoshi says she tries her best. She speaks of the horrible way she treated Ange when, after Episode 3, she was the only survivor to take care of Ange. She laments her faultand sin towards her. Rudolph and Kyrie thank her for trying her best to take care of Ange during that time.
- At quiz 4 and 5 (Gohda and Kumasawa), they talk about how Ange is maturing into a fine young lady. She is likened to an egg that is taken cared of to hatch when the time is right. They shouldn't force her to hatch against her will. She can become a good girl not tied to the sadness of the past. She has a future ahead.
- At quiz 6 and 7 (Nanjo and Genji) it is discussed why Genji uses a trick question. They talk about how they would sometimes used cheap tricks when playing chess with Kinzo. We get background on the shared past of Genji and Kinzo. We learn that Genji is from Taiwan and met Kinzo there and they became like brothers. We learn that Kinzo tried to get Genji's family to leave the island due to the war. Due to the debacle it seems only Genji survived and has dedicated his life to Kinzo.
- At quiz 8 and 9 (Natsuhi and Krauss) she is reminded of her own choice to abandon that orphan so many years ago as she seems to speak to Beato. She sort of apologizes for what she had chosen to be done to her at that time, after seeing the way Ange is acting as a little girl. She wonders what would have happened if she never let the child fall down the cliff. Beato harbors no grudge it seems, so Natsuhi should stop carrying the cross on her shoulders. Beato gives Natsuhi a hug (awww....). Hell Beato calls her oka-san (shortcut for mother).
- At quiz 10 and 11 (Kanon and Shannon) both are happy that the games are about to end and closure for their fates are about to come. They acknowledge how this is like a catbox that will not be opened. They talk about their relationships and their beliefs. The box must be opened if they ever hope to get a world that they can be with the ones they love. Both actually call for their "duel" on who becomes the "real person", by coin flip or pistols. They decide to do it by a quiz too.
- At quiz 12 and 13 (Rosa and Maria) Sakutaro (Yay!) wonders why Maria gave such a hard question. They talkabout Battler's desire to use this game and get some sort of happiness for Ange. Ange was the one who understood Maria's magic. They want Ange to believe in one's personal maic again. Even Battler understood magic. She laments that even if the best end cannot be accomplished, at least allow some sort of joy for Ange.
- At quiz 14 and 15 (Kyrie and Rudolph) the quiz game ends. Ange asks what Kinzo would give her. Kyrie and Rudolph talk about Battler. RUDOLPH REVEALS THAT HE SWITCHED THE BASSINETS OF ASUMU AND KYRIE. THUS, BATTLER IS KYRIE'S BIOLOGICAL SON! He did this to prevent the fact that he had an affair secret by making his mistress' son his wife's. He wants to apologize for doing this to them. In this catbox he says the truth must finally come out. Both of them sob.
- For Jessica and George, they have 3 boxes to put the medal in, and not all boxes are correct. A red, blue and a green box. She is to find the box where the medal goes in to. Ange chooses the red box. They ask if this is her final choice. Ange says that all the boxes look the same except for color so there's no reason for her to change her mind. The box makes a surprise sound and Ange starts to rethink her choice.
- At quiz 16 and 17 (George and Jessica, actually only one quiz but you get two medals), they tell that in the cake slice choice the influence of the servants affected her choice and helped narrow down the potentialchoices (?). What was supposed to be a 1/20 chance became a 1/15 chance. George is impressed that Ange understands probabilities at 6 years old.
- Ange is sleepy now so the quiz game ends. George and Jessica talk about the cake and the chances of getting the right slice. Like in reality, the information you get can affect the choices you make, eliminating some options and increases the chances of getting the right answer. It's your choice to accept them or not.
- Ange is too sleepy to continue so Battler and Beato decide to put off their quiz. She falls asleep as the rest of the family quiet down. They enjoyed playing the game with her. Kinzo hopes to change the tyrannical view of him. Nanjo hopes that in the 18 years after she finds a good life (?).
- Krauss says she is the last grandchild of the family and they pray for her good fortune. Natsuhi says happiness isn't only found but made. Hideyoshi and Eva talk about how their lives are inside this catbox.
- THE NARRATOR SUGGESTS THAT THIS PARTY, AS WELL, IS THE FAMILY'S CHANCE TO SAY GOODBYE TO ANGE. EVERYONE SPEAKS LIKE THEY ARE INDEED SAYING GOODBYE.
- The family gives words of wisdom forAnge as she sleeps. They leave after saying goodbyes, and Battlerand Beato approach her. They ask her to remember the good times they had and not be bound. They tell her to live, even without them.
- Beato admits that this is a fantasy made for this visit of Ange. Eva is still apologetic. The adults say she should stop beating herself up over it. She does see Ange as the daughter she never had.
- Genji brings Ange to the drawing room to sleep. Shannon tells Kinzo that Ange got 17 medals. He tells them to put a card beside Ange where she sleeps. A stuffed toy is also placed there. They leave her to sleep.

Yeah. Death flags everywhere. The entire bit is really touching personally and really capitalizes just how much Battler wants Ange to move on and live her life unbound to the past.

Blog page updated as well. More summaries tomorrow.

[Renall]

Some of the questions are pretty simple math/logic problems. Those should be easy enough to translate (though liberties may have to be taken with rewording the question itself). Some of them, though... yeesh. Best of luck on those.

[Klashikari]

I'm finally done with Episode 8.
I strongly recommend people not to look for spoilers at all, no matter how far they are already spoiled or not. Therefore, my reactions are potentially damaging as well, so by all means, please be prepared or scramble out of this thread on this very instant.


Anyway, I did make this warning because Episode 8 definitely was something "personal", to the point Ryukishi's goal and means looped like a donut, like the analogy he used before.
Episode 8 not being a textbook answer session is an understatement: there is basically nothing that explains what "truly happened" on the 4 and 5th october 1986. Actually, the whole thing was... perhaps "meaningless" (however, it is very likely I've missed various hints and details that are basically critical).
That being said, I believe the whole point was similar to how Minagoroshi and Matsuribayashi are drastically different between each other. For all it matters, Episode 7 was taking care of the Mystery (although I will agree that some "spoonfeeding" wouldn't be bad considering Umineko's mystery).

This will probably shock a lot of people, but I personally understand why Ryukishi took this path.
No Umineko Episode managed to stir so many different emotions from me than this one, and I was surprised more than once how too similar I was to chibi ange, and ange before her epiphany (those who follow my twitter's account can testify how my comments were jumping everywhere, nowhere close how I was with ep7).
I will give you that this doesn't excuse the potential "robbed solution" that people were expecting but... Episode 8 was sort of a journey about the truth. By itself, the actual truth wasn't the most important thing, but rather its meaning and also the "means" for it.

I do no want to make it anything sophisticated or childishily simple, but Twilight of the golden witch was enjoyable, because while the mystery was basically hammered to death in Requiem, Twilight managed something that I nearly didn't have for some episode: care for the characters.
I dunno about the fandom, but like I said, this episode definitely stirred a lot of things, and Ryukishi probably won his bet and savor his multiplied wage: that the outcome was sidetracked, but the struggle itself was the center of attention.
And believe me, you can criticize the lack of revelations for all I care, the ride was just a blast (so many awesome moments, like Will/Dlanor tag team, Erika/Ange tag team, Lambdadelta, even Bernkastel, etc).

I never thought I was going to use this quote especially my mindset when I started Twilight but... from Battler "is truth is really that important?".
Of course, I won't deny that I still have the burning desire to know at 100% what the bloody hell happened on Rokkenjima over these 7 games.

Was it mystery? Was it fantasy?
I honestly can't answer to that for the moment. However, all I can say: it was definitely a warm and ass kicking tale.

I realize this may sound like a fanboy forgiving every flaws, not bothering to check every nook and cranny. However, I trust people who know me that I certainly am not of a blind fool who would overlook flaws for no damn reason.
I certainly won't claim there isn't any, and Umineko no Naku Koro ni is definitely a debatable tale that will never have an absolute consensus... it would be a miracle, wouldn't it?

However, know this that... you definitely should check this Episode, just because how it is unfold.
That is all of the moment.

[Glass Heart]

Well, it's not that I don't agree that a story must keep some mysteries but...

Does that mean the last chapter doesn't reveal who is the culprit and what his goal was but simply tells us that the truth is something more than what we call "reality" ?

I don't mind the spoilers for my part. I'm searching who is the culprit on the web and I find nothing (but if there's no definite culprit to begin with...).


I mean, in fact I was a little afraid that there were some crappy revelation like: "-The red always tells the truth. -The red truths are lies and this one also. Therefore, there is no real answer to this game."

[witchfan]

I'm sure EP8 is a glorious fun read, but I wasn't wrong in saying that Ryukishi basically butchered the mystery. I think the "come up with your own answer" and "what's important is the journey" jazz would be fine for anything but a mystery novel... and then, I suppose we were wrong in thinking this is that kind of novel from the beginning (and I can't help but wonder why, of all things he could've revealed, he chose to reveal the poorest motive for a culprit(s) I've seen in years?). But yeah, as someone who hasn't finished reading yet, I'll save further whining for the Spoilers & Speculations thread (by the way, Sherringford posted a very relevant quote in it).

I will try and be optimistic about the supposed "Umineko Rei" that's going to come out. At the very least, I think he will reveal something about Shkanon in it.

[Sherringford]

I never thought I was going to use this quote especially my mindset when I started Twilight but... from Battler "is truth is really that important?".

I'll answer this with 'yes. Yes it fucking is.'


I realize this may sound like a fanboy forgiving every flaws, not bothering to check every nook and cranny.

Nah, I totally see where you are coming from. I loved the episode itself, and I think that if it was just another episode it would be ranking pretty high in my favorite episode list. Its main problem is that it had the heavy burden of "final episode" to carry.

Its ending(or lack of thereof) aside, it was a great episode.

It's kind of hard to explain how I felt about the episode. To me, it felt like a great episode, but a bad way to end the series. If Umineko had an episode 9 incoming, I would have loved this episode a lot more, if that makes sense.

The lack of a proper ending feels terrible to me.

"Is the truth really important?"

Let's face it. If you care about the mystery side of Umineko, the answer is of course it is. If you are a mystery fan at all, this ending will let you down.

It doesn't matter how much you like mysteries. You don't have to be a die hard Golden Age fan for this. If you like mysteries even a little, this will let you down.

If you aren't... .Then you'll probably enjoy it much more than I did.

[ferthepoet]

just one more question is it 100% definite this is the final episode... can it be a troll on people assuming it would be 8 episodes just because Higurashi was?

[Sherringford]

just one more question is it 100% definite this is the final episode... can it be a troll on people assuming it would be 8 episodes just because Higurashi was?

It isn't impossible. But even Miracle Max would tell you that your chances are closer to being all dead rather than mostly dead.

[Klashikari]

That being said, it is extremely likely that there will be a fandisc similar to Rei. Thus, there is perhaps a sliver of hope for those who want the cat's box to be burst open.

What an irony, it is almost as if the fandom has taken the role of Bern, despite she isn't really popular among them.

[Renall]

How popular is Bern in Japan?

[witchfan]

What an irony, it is almost as if the fandom has taken the role of Bern, despite she isn't really popular among them.

I wonder what Bern's role was in the story, myself. Was she the One Sane Woman in a world of make-believe dolts, or would she have taken the fantasy side if the truth was more benevolent? If Bern was simply a sadistic version of Battler, twisting the story so that she could enjoy it, this would be a very clever observation. Since it's exactly what every critical reader of a work would do, given the chance... and I suppose it's what we're trying to do.

(But, hey, allow me to state Bern, Beatrice and Kinzo are my favorite characters.)

[Sherringford]

That being said, it is extremely likely that there will be a fandisc similar to Rei. Thus, there is perhaps a sliver of hope for those who want the cat's box to be burst open.

What an irony, it is almost as if the fandom has taken the role of Bern, despite she isn't really popular among them.

Ryuukishi said he would want to go out to do research for his new series and Umineko rei, didn't he? So it's basically confirmed at this point. But I doubt it will really destroy the box.

...Though really I'm all for it.

[Renall]

I hope we get a joke theory arc or something out of Rei.

[Sherringford]

i hope we get a joke theory arc or something out of rei.

The culprit is...THE BOAT CAPTAIN!

[witchfan]

Well, he did destroy the box, I think. It's just, he snatched away most of the stuff that was in the box, and left us with an odd mess.

[Klashikari]

I can't tell how (un)popular Bern is in Japan, considering it has been ages I didn't check the polls. I was mostly referring to the english speaking community, considering the numerous negative comments regarding her.

I personally see her role as one among many, not really an "antagonist" to be fairly honest. In fact, being one of the "good" or "bad" guy isn't even accurate for her. Just I can say is that she is one of the most interesting characters in the franchise to me.

Oh and she (or rather Ryukishi) pulled a very meany and teasing comment:
さよなら、みんな。 また何かの、なく頃に。

[Iromaru]

If you aren't... .Then you'll probably enjoy it much more than I did.

I think meta/fantasy fans will hate the ending even more. Not the episode itself, but the ending.

Anyways, it's getting really terrible reviews on EGS so far.

[Sherringford]

I can't tell how (un)popular Bern is in Japan, considering it has been ages I didn't check the polls. I was mostly referring to the english speaking community, considering the numerous comments regarding her.

I personally see her role as one among many, not really an "antagonist" to be fairly honest. In fact, being one of the "good" or "bad" guy isn't even accurate for her. Just I can say is that she is one of the most interesting characters in the franchise to me.

Oh and she (or rather Ryukishi) pulled a very meany and teasing comment:
さよなら、みんな。 また何かの、なく頃に。

I think the English fandom always found her to be one of those "love to hate" characters though. She is a villain, she is supposed to make you hate her. And god damn it she did it well.

I consider her "evil bastard whose interests sometimes overlap with mine."

[TsundereCake]

Oh and she (or rather Ryukishi) pulled a very meany and teasing comment:
さよなら、みんな。 また何かの、なく頃に。

"Goodbye everyone. Until when, something else, cries" - pulled out the best of my amateur moonspeak skills for that one.

[witchfan]

Bern is an epic troll. She's also a nice throwback to Higurashi (whatever I may end up thinking of Umineko, Higurashi is one of my favourite series...). I don't know how anyone could hate her, myself.

[Renall]

I can't stand her. Never could. It's not her in the sense of anything specifically she does, it's just I tire quickly of characters like her. That she was allowed to basically just do whatever she wanted for ages before anybody smacked her down only aggravated that.

[witchfan]

We need a post-EP8 character poll. My most hated characters would have to be Rosa, followed by Maria.

[rogerpepitone]

I feel like I've been playing Mao (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mao_(card_game)) for a while. I can't figure out the rules, and the dealer keeps insisting that they're consistent, and lightly chides me for not trying hard enough to figure them out. Even things like who plays next seems to skip around randomly. My trust for the dealer is sinking continually, and I'm wondering whether we're actually playing something more like Fizbin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fizzbin#Fizzbin). I finally push the dealer to give the full rules. Is it spoonfeeding to do so?

(If the rules are things like "Whenever a three is played, order of play reverses. Whenever a seven is played, skip one player.", and the dealer has been playing by those rules consistently, it might be, even though those can be real tough to understand with three players. If they are "Whenever a red car passes, order of play reverses. Whenever somebody plays the three of clubs when the six of spades is in the discard pile, skip a player.", then it probably isn't. And if there weren't a consistent set of rules, absolutely not.)

Ryu has been continually focusing on the questions of what exactly happened on Oct 4th and
5th. How Ange moves on after that has been a B plot at best.

I care very much about the resolution of the A plot (the events of Oct 4-5). I don't much care about the resolution of the B plot.

[Klashikari]

Let's stop drop the "no so liked characters" subject, shall we? It has really nothing to do with Episode 8.

Anyway, as far as I can recollect everything, there is one thing that "bothers" me:

Trick end definitely nudges the "gloomiest" theory for Episode 4. I didn't really want to believe that, but the possibility that Amakuza would still carry out the plan Okonogi has set wasn't 0.

That being said, the reason why I'm bothered is the fact that Okonogi still got everything on a silver plate in the Magic ending...
Unless... well, that's perhaps what Ryukishi was trying to do, but I guess trick end was basically an attempt to show "what happens if Ange moves on, but in a nihilist way?".
That basically negate the "love" matter, which triggers her suspicions that she was being used for a huge ploy.

I dunno, Amakuza's reaction wasn't a complete confirmation of that theory: he certainly got bewildered, but was it because he was really seen through, or if it was because he feared Ange would make a very quick conclusion and take measure?
I personally wouldn't like to have 2 possibility that are basically the 2 faces of a coin, but I can't help but think there is something wrong:

I still can't imagine Amakuza and Okonogi being left "free" like this in the Magic End (the good one), if the trick ending shows they are basically villainous. That would be the same result than Ange's conclusion towards Eva "without love".

But... what about this fire arm Amakusa has brought? Not only it was the sniper rifle, but that old gun as well, that matches the kind of weaponry the sudamera had... oh well...

Ryu has been continually focusing on the questions of what exactly happened on Oct 4th and
5th. How Ange moves on after that has been a B plot at best.Except the A side progressively evolved in the chiru episodes, which was even more blatant with Battler's change of heart.
He certainly didn't try to go completely astray with Episode 7, but he definitely try to put shape into "something else than simply finding the truth".

[lambdabern]

By the way since featherine returns in ep 8 is she really as monstrous as bern said she was in ep6??

[Klashikari]

Featherine is probably the most -broken- witch ever.
You learn in Episode 8 that she is one of those of the Creator category.

You will understand once you see how she basically turn Lambda into nothing, and I -mean it-.
Bern is definitely serious when she says that Featherine is a monster. I don't think anyone in uminekoverse would like to see her even angry.

If I were to compare with something from Tsukihime, it would be like the difference between 100% Arcueid and a regular human, or in Fate Stay Night: difference in mana between Shirou and Angra Manyu Sakura.

[Sherringford]

Except the A side progressively evolved in the chiru episodes, which was even more blatant with Battler's change of heart.
He certainly didn't try to go completely astray with Episode 7, but he definitely try to put shape into "something else than simply finding the truth".

Problem being that one episode of setting it up<an entire series.

Sure episode 7 set us up for Ange's life. But the entire series set us up for Beatrice's tale, and Ryu just ignored it in favor of Ange.

Say what you will, but I find that to be terrible writing.

[Renall]

Let's stop drop the "no so liked characters" subject, shall we? It has really nothing to do with Episode 8.
Aren't the episode threads for discussion, review, impressions, and opinion? How does discussing whether you like/dislike a character with respect to their actions taken in ep8 (and earlier, to establish context) have nothing to do with ep8?

[Iromaru]

Featherine is probably the most -broken- witch ever.
You learn in Episode 8 that she is one of those of the Creator category.


She's basically Ryu's self insert. I seriously hate her.

The weird thing is: It's 99% certain Bern's letter was written to Featherine, but that Featherine was completely different than the one we know. First of all Bern really liked her. In that context their meeting from EP6 ???? makes no sense. Unless they were lying, or rather acting it out for Battler.

I'm preparing for crazy trolling in Rei.

[Klashikari]

It wasn't aimed at you Renall. I was talking about the potential shift of the discussion, as witchfan was talking about Rosa and Maria, whereas there was nothing about them in Ep8.

I see no reason to prevent people talking about characters in the said episode, that's the very purpose of the thread. However, discussions akin to "poll" shouldn't take place here. I will sort out this matter when I have the time.

[AuraTwilight]

The weird thing is: It's 99% certain Bern's letter was written to Featherine, but that Featherine was completely different than the one we know. First of all Bern really liked her. In that context their meeting from EP6 ???? makes no sense. Unless they were lying, or rather acting it out for Battler.

Who says Bern liked whoever she was writing the letter to. She's very prone to sarcastically speaking well of people in patronizing ways until they piss her off.

[luckyssol]

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/6508/messagevj.jpg
Dlanor: “...I SEE. The personification of the message BOTTLES?”
Battler: “Message bottles? Beato’s?”
Will: “No. They are the fragment of the future inhabitants’ delusions.”

http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/3853/message2s.jpg

http://img573.imageshack.us/img573/861/message3.jpg
“The truth of the past is inferior to the truth of the future.
The jaw and fangs of those goat's ruthless future will not accept our truth.
They invade by means of ‘The truth that we expect’.”

http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/3817/message4.jpg

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/2586/message5.jpg
Dlanor: “MAGNIFICENT.”
Will: “The next is yielded.”

http://img842.imageshack.us/img842/4411/message6u.jpg

http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/3672/message7.jpg

http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/974/message8.jpg
Will: “If you say it’s not a ‘Fanjita’ then let’s hear your reasoning.”
Dlanor: “I’m really looking forward to everyone’s OPINIONS.”

So if you think it’s not a fanjita then you have to make a theory to back your reasoning. :heh:

I’m loving episode 8 so far. ;)

[AuraTwilight]

I want to know what was being talked about in that first screenshot. Who are they saying is a "personification of the message bottles"?

[luckyssol]

I think they are us.

[Axilios]

I want to know what was being talked about in that first screenshot. Who are they saying is a "personification of the message bottles"?

I would say that they are talking about the goats invading the island, but it is only a guess.

[Mcjon01]

So, I was just browsing through the script some. Answering the quiz questions correctly definitely just leads to extra scenes between the quiz games. Total coins doesn't seem to affect anything other than the contents of the present that Kinzo gave to Ange. Or a different present, I dunno, it's definitely a present though. In case anyone was still holding out for more endings, they aren't in there.

Poor Boat Captain. He finally has a few seconds in the spotlight, and what does he get for it? A Dead End. I'm kind of okay with crazy-ass Witch of Truth Ange, though

[Digdri]

I'm finally done with Episode 8.
[...]

Well I thank for this comment because it really gave me hope that I will also kind of like (and at least except) this "end" the story will provide and enjoy the ride while doing so. Thats really some relief in all this RUINED FOREVER and other nerdrage talk starting up now like never before.

But actually this one answer also again made me want to write down some of the thought and more abstract theories that has circled in head like forever.... So here it goes:

First as a disclaimer: Without the means to read the story right on my own and form my personal opinions about I'm obviously also delving into this habit of analyzing 2nd information sources and maybe even fakes facts you like to discourage. But as all this talk "about" EP8 for the most part ironically has little to do with those easily messed up small details of EP8 but with the big picture of direction, tone and intention IMO I don't really take to much guesses here.
Beside I have read enough of you highly analytical and often unexpectedly critical posts about the progression of the tale to know how to take this first impression. :)

I think the core of this controversy and discussions flaring up right now stronger then ever and IMO also the reason why the Umineko fan community will never come to term with it lies in how its aggressively tackling the more unconventional concepts of Postmodern storytelling. Or in short: I assume if you don't actually see a point bringing up the special flavor of Postmodern ideology you may also have a hard time seeing what Umineko was trying to do the whole time.

Just as a short reminder how much Umineko fits this concepts:
- Umineko goes to great lenghs to challenge the idea of universal / absolute values like truth or too narrow-minded (but otherwise tried&proven) approaches to riddles. Always pointing towards great revelations in subjective and even contradicting interpretations to find the final answers.
- Its complete build around the idea of metafictionality as the standard layer for storytelling by constantly blurring the lines between the author, reader, the books tale and the "actual" plot while also referring to numerous other authors as well as story writing paradigms, standard tropes and tutorial-like sessions dealing with the genre convention... and all of this in-story.
- Their is also the idea that some postmodern works heavily focus on an rather distorted interpretation of reality giving the story a really magical or dream-like flair..... I guess no need to discuss this part any further. ;)


So I guess Ryu07 is a big supporter of all this postmodern idea as a means to craft a unique and deep tale but the problem is that Postmodernism isn't everybodys cup of tea which lead to the general impression that its most of the time producing weird or comprehensible, pretentious mindfuck.


The real question obviously should be is if its really suited to tell a compelling story this way but just taking this concepts to heart a lot of the more disliked spoiler reveals about EP8 make a lot of sense and are really consistent with his themes.
E.g. I also was a bit sad to read about this "robbed solution" problem everywhere but it just makes sense after forcing this idea of "subjectivity is king" at every occasion. Essentially its just taking this idea to the logical extreme by kind of denying or at least questioning the need for the often cited "word of god" knowledge. You phased it something like "its truth really important?" but you could even take that onto the meta-level and then it sounds to me like "Am I - the author - really this important to you while reading and analyzing this story? Come on make up your own mind what value can be found in here!". And if you are of a more "modern mindset" approach you won't like this question at all.
Umineko wouldn't even be the most well know story to try and force this reaction. Serial Experiment Lain was intentionally constructed with the same idea of forcing to find a subjective interpretation of its story (and also as some kind of cultural experiment for comparing western against Japanese reactions to it) and it had the same results: Lain is considered on of the most weird and incomprehensible concepts in anime history and has in conclusion a really niche appeal.


My only problem about all of this (and seemingly many others) is how this story always seem to be advertised as mystery in the first place which now may or may not be complete misdirection. Perhaps some of the more vocal haters right now are right and this really was never intend as a proper mystery and mystery topics were just a hook instead of a goal... That wouldn't even be an asspull, as Ryu07 always teased with this answer (but nobody believed his "trolling") and all the core arcs would have prepared this reveal anyway. Its just suuuch a big and fundamental red herring that is really hard to except that this was his best idea to craft this story.


But beside this drama over this there was one little part of your comment that put a big smile on my face:
"Was it mystery? Was it fantasy? I honestly can't answer to that for the moment."

Well if thats your first impression (and maybe even your final impression) that this still has relevance "after the end" then IMO we can say that Ryu07 (besides all the hiccups in the mystery solution) really pull off his thematically concept brilliantly. Actually that was the reaction to EP8 that I really hoped for. And I don't just think about the idea that he build a unusual moral question but about a much broader success in concept, which I have to elaborate a bit more:

Actually I always wondered that nobody ever seemed to address one specific part of this series when discussing his fame. Their is always the hype about how he is a genius in twisted and emotionally involving storytelling and also in mystery construction (well he may have to endure some cracks in his image for the latter in the near future ;) ) but actually he doesn't seem to understand this story just as literature but as games as well (even before choices in EP8)... and not in just in the sense of "its on dvd and sold in game stores" but he seems to construct them which the idea of an "interactive" experience in mind even if the actually lack any kind of really interactive elements (even less then the already minimalistic VN gaming concept). I always thought of that concept as cool and really innovative but he even gave us himself a point of reference (for those not that versed in mystery) that this idea was rather old and already got "perfected" in context of fair play mystery and the golden age. But he seem to do even more then those stories tried. E.g. he is giving every single of game a explicit game-like difficulty rating which I have never ever seen before for ... well.... stories/books/whatever comparable, so he most likely seem to think about them in terms of learning curves etc. like more traditional video games and some bigger parts of the story could even be called tutorials to teach us how to "play" his games. Their are also so many rules and "tools" present in Umineko that we could easily compare them to fundamental game mechanics of those more traditional games.

So whats the point in spelling this out in such great details? Well IMO with Umineko he may not only have proven that he is a good writer but that he's actually quite good in the "game design" area as well. Well he address one specific challenge about game design in IMO really innovative fashion where many "normal" games fail to deliver: The idea to create meaningful choices.

See there is this guy on YouTube (and by now also on The Escapist) who makes those cool small lecture video about important topics in modern game design and their effect on the quality of games (because its his job you thing about them anyway) and he likes to share all this "insider knowledge" with the world..... and one of his videos (link here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlOXAtPvMDk)) was going in-depth about the topic mentioned above. Some day I wondered if this stuff he is talking about - in a really weird way - may actually have some kind of significance to the Umineko games and by now I'm convinced they do.
To borrow the videos terms Umineko (as well as most mystery tales) are easily placed in this "only exercise in problem solving" part.... that simple the fun about them to reason out what did happen. Actually mystery by construction really has very little need for deep choices because most of them would also fall in this trap he explains that they would just be part of the bigger problem solving idea.

But here is Umineko turning this idea on its head: The central theme of the game... the main conflict and theme of all games is one big moral / philosophical choice and its quite innovative in its realization.... its always the question which side to take....
Some for the Umineko "players" may not even have realized it by then but when the "intro" to the game was completed with EP1+2 these story constantly forced this choice onto every gamer because if you wanted to "play" this game you had to at first justify to yourself the side you wanted to take and use your reasoning accordingly.
Well at first it didn't even seem that interesting or even comprehensible as a choice (remember how many anime-only viewers reacted to the central dilemma and called the story nonsensical and Battler a stubborn idiot). The big essay about "Anti-Mystery vs. Anti-Fantasy" from the Extra TIPS first the first time made all of this explicit but still at first glance it seemed rather pretentious and trivial to find the "right choice". I even thought his reasoning for Anti-Mystery was really weak and sounded like comparing apples and oranges.
But the more the world building of Umineko grew the more the implication of this conflict also grew and the more it also WAS reflected in the story as one of the most important topics. All the player again and again had to revise their reasoning, their assumptions and theories but most of all to reflect on this one choice and if its still right.
Still I always wonder if this would really work... the final assessment... the option to doubt what is dictated by common sense / logic / whatever....

But well there you have it... You said you don't know what to conclude.... It seems his whole experiment really did work.
Your comment is all I have hoped for and I'm curious to see if I will interpret it this way, too. But I just see you as one of the really open-minded "players" here so I guess I have not to much to worry. ;P
But its not just this statement but this whole forum is testament to how well this worked out. How endlessly has this been discussed in all this different threads after every game and how much variate in opinions (and how often did you have to step in as a mod and remind people to calm down and also accept other peoples opinions as valid reasoning... well actually thats one thing I wouldn't really want to know :p )
I also wasn't that surprised by his sudden reveal that EP8 would have real multiple choices. It just fit all this assumptions details here so well to actually explicitly spell out this one choice in game mechanics and make it effect the result of the story. But I guess this also proves your warning that spoilers are really harmful to the intended experience for EP8. :(

In the end the route about "subjectivity is the way to go" makes totally sense if he wanted to enforce this dilemma in every reader.... and also the complete dual nature of all of Uminekos "reality" was essential to making this work.

Considering all of this said I would also say Ange could really be seen as the central character and represetation for this whole problem. So the under this asumption the whole discussion about how she was a worthless addition in EP4 (or similar complaints) really became absurd. Its also funny how everybody was suspecting a trick about a decoy protagonist in Umineko and now he may have put the most unexpected twist on this by making Ange kind of the protagonist for the "greater interpretation" of the tale replacing Battler. O_o

BTW: If anyone is wondering why this guy from the video was so all over this idea of crafting good choices in games here is another video describing one personal experience of his team and one example of a well crafted scenario about Mass Effect 2 to illustrate this (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/extra-credits/1974-Enriching-Lives).

[Renall]

I think they are us.
Yeah how dare us, wanting to know things in the episode where he was going to tell us things.

[luckyssol]

He had to get it out of his system. Though, I can see why some people might get upset by that scene.
Personally, I don’t care. I’ve been called much worse than a ruthless goat before. :heh:

[Li Jianliang]

I've only seen 13 of the total number of puzzles so far. Translations are as follows for those interested in attempting to solve them. Most of them are fairly easy, though a few involve wordplay or knowledge of Japanese language. Hints are available through consulting Auntie Eva, it appears.

The questions are in no particular order. More will be added later.

White, black, white, black, white, ?, black, white, black, white, black, white.

What goes into the "?"...?

A: White
B: Black
C: Red
D: Gray
E: Blank

Hint: A beautiful sound when struck

A = Sweet Natto (Amanattou)
S = Salted Senbei (Shio-senbei)
K = Curry Rice (Karee Raisu)
N = Black Coffee (Burakku Koohii)
? = Lemonade (Remoneedo)

What alphabet letter goes into "?"...?

A: A
B: S
C: K
D: N
E: R

Hint: Flavors

Rokkenjima is about to explode!
There is only 1 hour left until the explosion.
Rosa can make it to the underground VIP room where the ingots are stored in 3 minutes.
However, since the ingots are heavy, she can only take one out at a time.
Also, it takes her 5 minutes to return to above ground with it.

Starting from above ground and going back and forth to the underground VIP room, how many ingots can Rosa take out from the underground VIP room...?

A: 4
B: 5
C: 6
D: 7
E: 8

There are three girls.

Miyoko: "I'm the eldest."
Satoko: "Rika isn't the eldest."
Rika: "Miyoko is a liar. Nipaa."

Amongst them, only the eldest girl is speaking the truth.
Well then, who in the world is the eldest...?

A: Miyoko
B: Satoko
C: Rika

Hint: Run through each scenario

There was a traveler at some certain place.

The traveler walked 5km to the north.
Next, he walked 5km to the east.
Next, he walked 5km to the south.
By doing so, he somehow returned to his starting point.

This place exists in real life, but what sort of place is it...?

A: A very hot place
B: A very cold place
C: There's no way it exists in real life

Note: Don't read into 'taking the...'. It just means people were sorted into four ranks.

A knowledge-loving king decided to reward people who studied hard.

29 gold coins for people taking the bronze.
47 gold coins for people taking the silver.
79 gold coins for people taking the gold.

Well, how many gold coins can people taking the platinum receive?

A: 30
B: 57
C: 78
D: 91
E: 112

There is a building with 14 floors.

The companies residing on each floor are as follows.
On floor 14, there's Okamura Securities Corporation.
On floor 13, there's Iwamura Realty Corporation.
On floor 12, there's Tamura Transportation Corporation.

Well, which floor is Murakoshi Publishing Corporation on?

A: Floor 1
B: Floor 3
C: Floor 5
D: Floor 7
E: Floor 9

Hint: Read the floors out loud from floor 1

In the witch's house, there was a magic kitchen.

Everyday, it freshly makes a dinner to greet the witch who returns at a set time.
One day, the witch was very late in returning due to her work.
When she returned, the foodstuffs went to greet the witch.
"Welcome home, Madam Witch. I prepared a vegetable stew today," said the pot of stew.
"Welcome home, Madam Witch. Please hurry up, dunk me in the stew, and eat me," said the stiff piece of bread.
"Welcome home, Madam Witch. You must be thirsty. Hurry up and drink me," said the white wine.
"Welcome home, Madam Witch. When you eat me, you'll forget about how hot it was today," said the ice cream for dessert.

Well, amongst them, there's a liar, but who is it...?

A: Stew
B: Bread
C: Wine
D: Ice Cream

The cook is in trouble.

Only dessert remains to be made for dinner, but the only ingredient he has is mackerel (saba).

At that moment, something came across the cook's mind.
If he adds a single Hiragana letter, then the mackerel becomes dessert (dezaato).

What in the world is that letter?

A: A
B: Ka
C: Ku
D: Ro

Hint: Japanese-English wordplay

One day, a sweet chestnut (amaguri) came drifting down the river.
On the next day, an Iyokan citrus (iyokan) came drifting down.
On the next day, a melon (uri).
On the next day, an edamame (edamame).
On the next day, an okra (okura).
On the next day, a persimmon (kaki) came drifting down.

So on the next day, what will come drifting down?

A: Cabbage (kyabetsu)
B: Lettuce (retasu)
C: Corn (toumorokoshi)

If you add emergency (kyuukyuu) to "?", then it'll become an ambulance (kyuukyuusha) with a red light.

Even if you remove "?" from 130, it'll still be a car with a red light, but not an ambulance.

What number goes into "?"...?

A: 5
B: 10
C: 15
D: 20
E: 25

Hint: What + 99 can summon an ambulance in Japan?

Christmas Day.

While looking up at the night sky, the girl said,
"Soon, dawn will break and it'll be morning. If only it could be Christmas again even when the sun sets and it turns into night again."
Upon this, the guy said,
"Okay. I'll grant that dream."

In the end, is such a thing possible...?

A: Possible
B: Impossible

There is a lit candle, 5cm in length.

In a single hour, this candle burns away half of its length at that time.
And when its length drops below 1cm, the flame will go out.

After 3 hours, the flame has gone out, but at this moment, how many mm long is the candle?

A: 0mm
B: Approximately 3mm
C: Approximately 6mm
D: Approximately 8mm
E: Approximately 10mm

Hint: It has nothing to do with division

[luckyssol]

Are those questions in the same order that they are presented in the game? I mean, do they match the order Marina2 posted (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=3417260&postcount=16)?

[Li Jianliang]

Are those questions in the same order that they are presented in the game? I mean, do they match the order Marina2 posted (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=3417260&postcount=16)?
No. They are in random order. I'm not a big fan of looking at the answers before reading the riddle...

[Mcjon01]

Man, that King's Reward riddle is a really douchey question to ask a six year old girl. There's pretty much no way Ange would be able to get that one in-story, unless the Japanese school system moves ridiculously fast. I guess she's lucky that she's got an omniscient invisible force guiding her choices, eh?

[Titanguy654]

I assume that there is an answer to all of this mess, or, at least, Ryukishi has one in his own mind. There has been enough evidence of that. What I wonder about is whether or not he truly intends to carry his own answer to the grave with him.

Sealing the cat-box indeed.

Edit: Otherwise, I'm banking on a:

"Alright, now that you've all had suffeciant time to think about all 8 episodes for yourselves, here's the answer. Kthxbye." Type deal to happen. That seems naive at this point, though.

[AuraTwilight]

Man, that King's Reward riddle is a really douchey question to ask a six year old girl. There's pretty much no way Ange would be able to get that one in-story, unless the Japanese school system moves ridiculously fast. I guess she's lucky that she's got an omniscient invisible force guiding her choices, eh?

They know that, though. Eva apologizes to Ange about how she raised her after 1986 and shit.

[Sir Andy Richter]

Would it be mean to suggest we got the "ending" we did because Ryukishi wrote himself out of a corner and had no way to fix it?

I'm fine with it but ehhhh you do not end a murder mystery like that but, oh wait, this isn't a murder mystery, I forgot.

[ferthepoet]

I think people are misunderstanding those of us who are unhappy with the spoilers, the problem is not not having a definite answer on what happened on Rokkenjima, the problem is not having any answer to the main points built by the previous chapter....

for example episode 7 gaves a coherent answer as to the source of the gold then later in the chapter we get a hint that that might not have been the full truth..... I don't know if the gold was touched upon on chapter 8 but if it had been left like that and its up to us to believe Kinzo story or think something else happened that's fine, however. if we had never got any explanation about the Gold and he said something like Oh, you are free to believe whatever you want about the source of the gold that would have just been bad writing.

From the sound of it this is what happens with most of the remaining mysteries, the problem is not that we didn't get an unquestionable solution the problem is that we didn't get any solution at all nor any reasons to keep on believing a coherent narrative with a who, how and why dunnit for each of the first four episodes can be formed

The other problem is Umineko made it seem like the the whole point was finding the solution... Pan's Laberynth had an open end where no final answer on whether the magic world is real is provided but that's o.k because the work was never about that....In Umineko you are encouraged over and over to think about this... even if Author theory applies and on the metanarrative level Umineko was not a mystery novel we are told up to episode 7 that the intention of each of the authors was to write mystery novels and that they wanted the readers to solve them so its o.k not to get an answer about rokkenjima prime but we should at least get answers regarding the solutions the authors of those fictions within fiction novels had in mind.

[AuraTwilight]

Would it be mean to suggest we got the "ending" we did because Ryukishi wrote himself out of a corner and had no way to fix it?

Yes, since the ending was implied through the whole series. You can't say it's an asspull, since it dies up everything in a thematic sense.

I think people are misunderstanding those of us who are unhappy with the spoilers, the problem is not not having a definite answer on what happened on Rokkenjima, the problem is not having any answer to the main points built by the previous chapter....

for example episode 7 gaves a coherent answer as to the source of the gold then later in the chapter we get a hint that that might not have been the full truth..... I don't know if the gold was touched upon on chapter 8 but if it had been left like that and its up to us to believe Kinzo story or think something else happened that's fine, however. if we had never got any explanation about the Gold and he said something like Oh, you are free to believe whatever you want about the source of the gold that would have just been bad writing.

From the sound of it this is what happens with most of the remaining mysteries, the problem is not that we didn't get an unquestionable solution the problem is that we didn't get any solution at all nor any reasons to keep on believing a coherent narrative with a who, how and why dunnit for each of the first four episodes can be formed

You were supposed to find out all that on your own, though. Before EP8 was even published, Ryukishi said the mystery was concluded.

The other problem is Umineko made it seem like the the whole point was finding the solution... Pan's Laberynth had an open end where no final answer on whether the magic world is real is provided but that's o.k because the work was never about that....In Umineko you are encouraged over and over to think about this... even if Author theory applies and on the metanarrative level Umineko was not a mystery novel we are told up to episode 7 that the intention of each of the authors was to write mystery novels and that they wanted the readers to solve them so its o.k not to get an answer about rokkenjima prime but we should at least get answers regarding the solutions the authors of those fictions within fiction novels had in mind.

Ryukishi has been saying since before EP4 was released that we weren't going to be getting the answers. It's your own fault for building up expectations he was forthrightly claiming he had no intentions of meeting.

The answers are there, find them yourself. That's what it means to have "personal satisfaction."

[yuugi99]

What the above poster said. I am unhappy not because of what happened in rokkenjima prime. I would care less about it. I am unhappy because no confirmed answer was given to the mystery provided in the first four episodes.

Although I could form my own answer that Shannon/Kannon/Shkannon (whichever you believe he/she is) is the culprit which fakes the first twillight dead, but my answer will never be the correct answer (or anyone's answer for that matter). It may be correct or it may be wrong but we will never 100% know for sure. This is the one and only thing on why I am dissappointed. I don't care if the first 4 games are fictions within fictions but at the very least provide the answer to them.

No matter how absurd the answer is, the worst is no answer at all. I hope umineko rei would clear this up but i won't get my hope high

[AuraTwilight]

....And, again, Ryukishi has been saying literally for years that he wasn't be giving all the answers like he did for Higurashi. This can't at all be blamed on how he wrote EP8, we were told not to even EXPECT it.

[ferthepoet]

I think most people was aware we were not getting complete answers but the problem is from the sound of it we are not getting answers to any of the major points ..... maybe we are overreacting and I'll wait until I read episode 8 for giving my opinion.... but for example I don't see how a solution which doesn't give any hint how the outcome could have been avoided if Battler came one year earlier or later could be satisfying... Yes I know we can invoke butterfly effect and just leave it at the slightlest of changes can result in the largest of differences but that does not make for a compelling story

[Renall]

Man, that King's Reward riddle is a really douchey question to ask a six year old girl. There's pretty much no way Ange would be able to get that one in-story, unless the Japanese school system moves ridiculously fast. I guess she's lucky that she's got an omniscient invisible force guiding her choices, eh?"Everyone hates Ange" is becoming more and more supported by evidence...

[ArcticHelm]

I'm not really sure what an answer is anymore. >.> Even "real" scenes could be some sort of fantasy. D: Well, outside of the fact that it is a story.

[Renall]

I'm not really sure what an answer is anymore. >.> Even "real" scenes could be some sort of fantasy. D: Well, outside of the fact that it is a story.Of course when we start getting into "Everything is part of a story, but some of it is more of a story than other parts," we start sounding a trifle odd, don't we?

So what distinction, if any, are we supposed to be making there?

[ArcticHelm]

I'd ask Ryu, but I doubt I'd get an answer. :< All I know is George hate crosses all realities.

[AuraTwilight]

I think most people was aware we were not getting complete answers but the problem is from the sound of it we are not getting answers to any of the major points ..... maybe we are overreacting and I'll wait until I read episode 8 for giving my opinion.... but for example I don't see how a solution which doesn't give any hint how the outcome could have been avoided if Battler came one year earlier or later could be satisfying... Yes I know we can invoke butterfly effect and just leave it at the slightlest of changes can result in the largest of differences but that does not make for a compelling story

I read Japanese. There are answers to all the questions if you're willing to figure it out for yourself.

[ijriims]

I wonder, if the content of Eva's diary is completely revealed?


And I think, really the goats are a good mockey of us, the readers.

[MeoTwister5]

First summaries for today. This details the metareunion of almost all the characters up to... well... read on.

MetaReunion
- Beato scatters gold dust all over the party room as Battler thanks everyone for their participation. He readorns the GM cape. Ronove and Virgilia appear and speak with Beato. The seven sisters of purgatory attend to them. They express their thanks for the final game.
- The siestas appear as well. Beato says that this game is not yet completely concluded. Gaap, Zepar and Furfur greet George and Jessica. Maria and Sakutaro play around.
- Dlanor and her attendants thank Battler for the invitation. She shows him the invitation he had for Erika but Dlanor says they cannot find her.
- Lambda warps in saying it's her obligation. He says this is the last time for participants in the game to celebrate. Bern should be here shortly.
- Will and Lion are also invited. Will and Dlanor seem to be previously acquainted. Lion introduces themselves as people from another kakera. Beato and Lion recognize each other (perchance knowing they are the same person). Lion says they were colleagues at the inquisition.
- Battler and Beato have a toast. Maria wants some champagne but Geaorge and Rosa stop her. Ronove gathers everyone to listen.
- Battler thanks everyone for their participation in the game, as he is the game master. He toasts everyone.
- In the drawing room, Ange wakes up with tears and finds herself under a blanket. She wants to go where everyone else is. The door to the hall refuses to open even with a key. She tries to force it open.
- She feels the wind blowing on her hair. The windows are open. She sees what looks like the eyes of a cat. She hears a bell, probably on said cat. It seems tolead her towards the outside through the window. She follows it outside towards the party hall windows. She knocks but no one seems to hear.
- She continues to follow the cat to the mansion grounds. She tries to pet the cat which jumps into the bushes and into a dark window. Ange enters the darkened room. She switches on the light to the dining room...
- BLOOD STAIN! SHE SEES WHAT LOOKS LIKE CORPSES OF HER PARENTS.

MetaReunion
- People are arguing at the party. Likely due to the alcohol. Most of the party goers are already drunk. Nanjo is talking about Van Dyne with Will. Lots of party chitchat that is likely not really important. Lion is quite literally pinching asses. Real characters, meta characters and servants are mixing together.
- Battler asks Shannon for the key to the drawing room to checkon Ange. They knock on the door but no one answers. They unlock and enter. Ange is not inside. Shannon thinks she came out the window. Battler is worried because, as the GM, this is an unexpected event.
- Lambda runs some quizzes in the party. Bern appears at the party and apologizes for being late. Will and Lion aren't amused. Lambda welcomes her. Battler and Beato greet her. Battler tells Beato that Ange disappeared. Lambda asks if this is part of his game.
- Bern acts concerned. Battler asks if it's possible for someone to take her away unknown to her but Beato says it should be impossible.
- BERN WANTS TO CHALLENGE BATTLER AND BEATO. Lambda says Bern has not yet let go of this (?).
- Beato says this challenge for the final game will be tough. They will accept under the condition that she will return Ange. Bern accepts the condition. She and Lambda toast. Lambda will be arbiter of the final match.
- Both sides start preparations. Battler says all he wanted was to reach the truth in his fight with Erika. Bern says she simply wanted to win. Bern asks if they want Erika back to participate, and Battler agrees. They consider her part of this story. They both agree to take no prisoners.
- Battler narrates that taking a hostage was unecessary because he would have agreed to a duel anyway. Bern says she really doesn't care about a piece named Erika. Battler thanks her for this final battle.
- Lanbda asks Zepar and Furfur to close down the party.

MetaWorld
- Players are transported to the metaroom where the game is held. The game is prepared. The scenario is drawn.
- The kakera is presented. They discuss the colored text and it's use for this final game. Bern says this isn't like the previous human versus magic mysteries anymore. She will request an answer from them at the end of the story. Lambda declares that this final game is completely solvable. An answer can be obtained.
- Battler thanks Lambda for allowing this to be a fair game. The players and judge exchange pleasantries and respects. Bern wants to feel the excitement of the struggle once again. Battler says that no matter the outcome,they will become friends.
- Lambda asks Bern to begin the reading. Bern says she prefers the game not having the bias from her POV in reading. Beato says it is her right as GM. Battler agrees to read the story themselves.
- Both sides start their... friendly trash talking. Battler and Beato declare their goal. Bern responds with her own.
- Bern raises her hand as the light fills the room.
- THE FINAL BATTLE OF ROKKENJIMA BEGINS.

Yes indeed my friends.

The Final Battle of Rokkenjima Begins.

If I have time I'll start on it later today. Blog is also updated.

[AuraTwilight]

Battler wants to be friends with Bern? No, fuck her. You tell the bitch to get out.

[Used Can]

Battler wants to be friends with Bern? No, fuck her. You tell the bitch to get out.
He could learn a thing or two from Nanoha. That's how you make friends.

[MeoTwister5]

Bern did just sort of laugh it off with her troll face so, you know, Bern.

[AuraTwilight]

No, seriously, I can't even believe that shit.

"So I kidnapped your sister."
"Cool let's be friends."

....no wait it makes sense now.

[MeoTwister5]

No, seriously, I can't even believe that shit.

"So I kidnapped your sister."
"Cool let's be friends."

....no wait it makes sense now.

Yeah. Ryukishi must be a Nanoha fan.

I'm more concerned about why no one finds it odd that Lion is pinching asses.

[Sherringford]

You know, one thing that I really didn't like is how the entire series was setting itself up perfectly for a Burning Court ending and Ryuukishi decided to go Brazil/Fight Club on us.

[rogerpepitone]

For anybody who's interested, The Burning Court is another mystery novel by John Dickson Carr.

[MeoTwister5]

The Battle of Rokkenjima: First Murder Investigation

The murders have begun. This summarizes the first group of murders and investigations. I have included red and purple text.

First Murders

Ange's View
- Ange witnesses 6 bodies in the room covered in blood.
- Bodies are: Rudolph, Kyrie, Hideyoshi, Eva, Genji and Rosa.
- Ange is too overwhelmed to cry. She checks the door which is locked. She unlocks it and checks the hall. She follows the cat outside the room.
- She checks the party hall which is also empty. She follows the cat to the second floor.
- At the second floor she enters a room with a key from the cat and sees blood. Natsuhi's room. The room is messy. She finds Natsuhi and Krauss' bodies.
- She runs to the outside to the rose garden and finds Shannon on the flowers and Jessica on the pathway. Both are dead. She flees to the guesthouse.
- Nanjo is dead in the entrance. Gohda and Kumasawa lie dead in the servant room. Thirteen bodies.

Investigation View
- Battler questions Gohda. In purple, he says the dining room is locked. He adds that the room usually isn't locked. In purple, Kumasawa says she checked the locked room. In purple, Gohda says the room was opened by the master key. In purple, Kumasawa says Eva, Hideyoshi, Rudolph, Kyrie, Rosa and Genji are the 6 total blood-stained corpses inside.
- In purple, Krauss says that all the members gathered in the dining room. The others lament the fact of the murders.
- In purple, Shannon says that the child confirmed the sure death of the child's parents. In purple, Kanon says that he and Nanjo confirmed Genji to be dead. In purple Nanjo says he is not mistaken with the autopsy.
- In purple, Maria says that all the victims died instantly.
- In purple Krauss says that all the windows in the dining room were locked and no secret room exists. In purple Battler says that no suspicious people were found inside the dinign room.
- In purple, George says no one was hiding in the dining room. In purple Krauss says that no one could have hidden. Jessica finds this all strange and how would the murderer do this. They theorize that the person had a master key. The servants become suspects. However, anyone could have a key.
- Battler suggests a way to lock without using a master key. In red, Bern says that only game managers could tamper with the lock, otherwise you need a key toopen the locks. You can however lock it from the inside without using a key. Beato asks if some other key can be used.
- In red, Bern says that no other key aside from a master key exists. She adds that there are a total of 5 master keys. 5 servants have one. The servants always keep their keys with them, and you cannot take the keys secretly, only I can do it. Battler and Beato says it would be best to check the keys.
- Natsuhi say in purple that Genji's key was destroyed.
- Narrator summarizes.

- Gohda: the dining room was locked.
- Kumasawa: the room was checked by me.
- Gohda: the room was opened with the master key.
- Kumasawa: Eva, Hideyoshi, Rudolph, Kyrie, Rosa and Genji are the 6 total blood-stained bodies inside.
- Krauss: all the members gathered in the dining room.
- Shannon: the child confirmed the sure death of the child's parents.
- Kanon: he and Nanjo confirmed Genji to be dead.
- Nanjo: I am not mistaken with the autopsy.
- Maria: all the victims died instantly.
- Krauss: all the windows in the dining room were locked and no secret room exists.
- Battler: no suspicious people were found inside the dining room.
- George: no one was hiding in the dining room.
- Krauss: no one could have hidden.
- Natsuhi: Genji's key was destroyed.

- Bern: only game managers could tamper with the lock, otherwise you need a key to open the locks. You can however lock it from the inside without using a key.
- Bern: no other key aside from a master key exists. There are a total of 5 master keys. 5 servants have one. The servants always keep their keys with them, and you cannot take the keys secretly, only they can use it.

Blog has been updated. I decided to start separate the summaries so that each page isn't stupidly long. I also made a separate page for the colored text for quick references.

Also due to the importance of the colored text, tell me if I made mistakes so I can fix them.

Edit - Yeah Klash is right. Corpse =/= body and I misread the noun Bern used. Corrected.

Second and Third Murder Investigation

Second Murders

(Ange's experience is not in real time synchronicity with the investigation so some characters may already be alive or dead during the investigation view)

- Everyone else returns to the dining room. Phones do not work. They begin to wonder just what the hell is happening. Eveyrone is being cautious. Krauss and Natsuhi head for her room together, however they take a long time and calls to the room are unanswered.
- The survivors head to the room and find them dead.
- In purple Gohda says madame's room was locked. In purple Shannon says she used the key to open the door. In purple Kanon says they found Krauss and Natsuhi collapsed inside.
- In purple, Battler says Nanjo checked the pulses and both were declared to have died instantly. In purple Nanjo says he confirmed them both dead. I am correct on their instant deaths. In purple Jessica said that all the windows and the door were locked and no secret room exists.
- The servants again suspect that someone with a master key did it.
- In purple, Shannon says that all the servants are always together. In purple, Kanon says that the servants can confirm each other's alibis.
- Battler negins to think about secret rooms. Bern reiterates that everyone has an alibi. Beato says that with an alibi for the servants, opening the lock would be impossible.
- In purple, Maria says that they sealed the room with tape on the outside. In purple Jessica says that until the police arrive, no one can enter or leave. In purple Battler says that they sealed the dining room in the same way.
- In purple, Nanjo says that they sealed the mansion and all the members took shelter in the guest house.
- Battler asks about putting tape on the windows of the mansion. He suggests a ladder reaching up to the third floor windows.
- In red, Bern says the windows are barred with iron bars, so entering and leaving through the windows is impossible. Therefore, the only the front door and back door need to be sealed.
- Battler and Beato ponder how the muderer got in, but they couldn't have locked the doors after since only the servants could lock from the outside. He is willing to suspect a conspiracy of the servants.
- Battler presumes that without Erika (detective authority?) there is no absolute confirmation of the life and death status of the bodies.
- In red Bern says that the criminal of the first evening surely killed 6 people.
- In blue Beato says that the criminal locked themselves from the inside and hid in Natsuhi's room. When everyone left, the criminal checked and escaped.
- In red Bern says that the room was immediately sealed by everyone. The criminal could not have escaped at that moment. The seals of the dining room, Natsuhi's room and the mansion cannot be broken.
- Narrator summarizes.

- Bern: the windows are barred with iron bars, so entering and leaving through the windows is impossible. Therefore, the only the front door and back door need to be sealed.
- Bern: the criminal of the first evening surely killed 6 people.
- Bern: the room was immediately sealed by everyone. The criminal could not have escaped at that moment. The seals of the dining room, Natsuhi's room and the mansion cannot be broken.

- Gohda: madame's room was locked.
- Shannon: I used the key to open the door.
- Kanon: found Krauss and Natsuhi collapsed inside.
- Battler: Nanjo checked the pulses and both were declared to have died instantly.
- Nanjo: confirmed them both dead. I am correct on their instant deaths.
- Jessica: all the windows and the door were locked and no secret room exists.
- Shannon: all the servants are always together.
- Kanon: the servants can confirm each other's alibis.
- Maria: we sealed the room with tape on the outside.
- Jessica: until the police arrive, no one can enter or leave.
- Battler: we sealed the dining room in the same way.
- Nanjo: we sealed the mansion and all the members took shelter in the guest house.

- Beato: the criminal locked themselves from the inside and hid in Natsuhi's room. When everyone left, the criminal checked and escaped.

[Klashikari]

Various corrections:
-Kumasawa's purple clearly indicates "blood stained -bodies-". She never mentioned corpses by any means, which will be even notified by Battler and Beato.

-Bern's red state that no one can use the master key except their respective owner. Which means that for instance, no one can use Gohda's key except Gohda himself. She definitely didn't include herself in the lot.

Going to have a read of the rest.

[MeoTwister5]

Fourth Murder Investigation


Fourth Murders

- Shannon went out to the garden and was not found. They later find her in the garden dead.
- In purple Nanjo says he examined the dead body and confirmed that she is dead. In purple Gohda says that they do not all have alibis. Because they were checking the entrances of the guesthouse.
- Jessica in purple says that it is impossible for George to kill Shannon. In reverse in purple, Battler says it is possible for everyone else to kill Shannon except for George. In purple, Gohda says that Shannon's master key was destroyed.
- In red Bern says that Kanon disappeared for all eternity the moment Shannon was killed. He is to be considered killed. Kanon's key is destroyed.
- Beato presumes both were killed at the same time even with no verifiable corpse.

- Nanjo: examined the dead body and confirmed that she is dead.
- Gohda: they do not all have alibis.
- Jessica: it is impossible for George to kill Shannon.
- Battler: it is possible for everyone else to kill Shannon except for
George.
- Gohda: Shannon's master key was destroyed.

- Bern: Kanon disappeared for all eternity the moment Shannon was killed. He is to be considered killed. Kanon's key is destroyed.

Fifth and Sixth Murder Investigation

Fifth and Sixth Murders

- Everyone starts to barricade themselves in the guesthouse. They're all afraid. The family decides to speak with Gohda and Kumasawa in the servant's room. They discover Gohda and Kumasawa all bloody.
- In purple Nanjo says that Kumasawa and Gohda died instantly. In purple Jessica says that Gohda and Kumasawa are dead. In purple Battler says that none of the remaining members have alibis.
- The survivors notice blood everywhere. In purple Jessica says that the 4 family members and Nanjo could not have killed Gohda and Kumasawa. In purple George says that the guesthouse was perfectly checked.
- In purple Battler says that there can be no more master keys because the last two keys are with the two victims who died.
- Narrator summarizes.

- Nanjo: Kumasawa and Gohda died instantly.
- Jessica: Gohda and Kumasawa are dead.
- Battler: none of the remaining members have alibis.
- Jessica: the 4 family members and Nanjo could not have killed Gohda and Kumasawa.
- George: the guesthouse was perfectly checked.
- Battler: there can be no more master keys because the last two keys are with the two victims who died.

Seventh Murder Investigation

- Survivors find Nanjo dead at the guesthouse entrance.
- Jessica in purple says he is dead. George admits he would even know that, in purple, he died instantly.
- In purple Maria says that the door was perfectly set. In purple Jessica says that neither Maria, Battler, George or me could have killed Nanjo.
- In purple George says that it would have been impossible to kill Nanjo in the guesthouse. In purple Battler says that there is no sign that Nanjo left the guesthouse.
- Maria wonders WTF happened to Nanjo.

- Jessica: he is dead.
- George: he died instantly.
- Maria: the door was perfectly set.
- Jessica: neither Maria, Battler, George or me could have killed Nanjo.
- George: it would have been impossible to kill Nanjo in the guesthouse.
- Battler: there is no sign that Nanjo left the guesthouse.
Blog updated.

[MeoTwister5]

Eighth Murder Investigation

- Jessica rages and runs out to the garden. Maria, George and Battler chase her down.
- They find her dead in the pathway near the garden. In purple George said she died instantly. In purple Maria says it is unquestionable that she cannot be alive.
- In purple Battler says it is impossible that George, Battler or Maria could have killed her. In purple Maria says that it is impossible that the 3 of them could have killed Jessica. In purple George says that it is impossible for Maria to kill someone. In purple Maria says that George cannot kill an adult. He can however kill a child.
- Narrator summarizes.

- George: she died instantly.
- Maria: it is unquestionable that she cannot be alive.
- Battler: it is impossible that George, Battler or Maria could have killed her.
- Maria: it is impossible that the 3 of them could have killed Jessica.
- George: it is impossible for Maria to kill someone.
- Maria: George cannot kill an adult. He can however kill a child.

The murders and Bern's story ends here. The rest of the game will be the final investigation towards a solution. Classes start tomorrow (actually later since it's past midnight) so summaries will come slower.

Time for bed!

[Dormeur]

6 October 1986, Battler and Beato escaped from Rokkenjima by motorboat.
Though many people were killed by accident or murder, Battler didn't seem sad.
And he was found on the road, not shore.
That's strange.
I can't stop considering him as the culprit.

By the way, what happened in the escape scene of the real world ?


With love
- Yasu dived into the sea with an ingot. Battler tried to rescue her. He failed. He was saved by chance.

- Yasu tried dive into the sea with an ingot. Battler tried to stop her. The boat capsized, and he was saved by chance.

- An ingot dropped from the boat. Yasu tried to take it. Yasu falled into the sea. Battler tried to rescue her. He failed, and he was saved by chance.

- Battler and Yasu tried to comitted suicide together for the eternal love. They dived into the sea with an ingot. Only Battler failed, and he was saved by chance.

- Yasu tried to force Battler to commit suicide together on the boat. Battler resisted her. The boat capsized, and Battler was saved by chance.

- Yasu was injured by the explosion or shot. She died on the boat. Battler tried to sink her body, the ingot, his jacket as a funeral. He failed and falled into the sea with them. He was saved by chance.

Without love
- Battler killed Yasu because he got the way to escape from the island. To hide the evidence of the (mass) murder, he threw away Yasu's body with his bloody jacket from the boat. He used the ingot for preventing them surfacing. He went ashore and pretended to lose his memories.

- Battler killed Yasu because he got the way to escape from the island. To hide the evidence of the (mass) murder, he tried to threw away Yasu's body with his bloody jacket from the boat. He used the ingot for preventing them surfacing. He failed to do that and falled into the sea with them. He was saved by chance.

[AuraTwilight]

Battler being the culprit doesn't make the slightest bit of sense and requires ignoring everything the series has ever told us about anything.

[immblueversion]

Battler being the culprit doesn't make the slightest bit of sense and requires ignoring everything the series has ever told us about anything.

He was an unwilling accomplice who didn't kill anyone on the island.

[Klashikari]

That was certainly not even mentioned in Episode 8. I have no idea where this spoiler is from, but unless I really missed a giant flag, there wasn't even the slightest indication of this.

And no, Bern's game has really nothing to do with the rest of the games, especially considering the red and purple used in there (and if people do consider as real, well you better define me the "unwillingly" which is unlikely considering his behavior in this version).

[Kit]

I don't know if I'm the only one that feels this way but I gotta say, even though the mystery puzzles were originally the things that I found most alluring about Umineko, I feel much worse about the way Battler ended up than about the actual solutions and answers. More than anything it pains me to find out that he was an accomplice in his parents' plot regardless of whether or not he was willing or unwilling. The fact that he participated in it strikes me as weak and out of character from the stoic and charming character I've come to love over the course of reading the stories.

[Klashikari]

For the last time: there is -nothing- that remotely confirms or even "suggest" that Battler was an accomplice. Heck, there is nothing that actually confirms Episode 7 "theory" to boot.

Bern's little game was a mere mystery challenge addressed towards Battler and Beato. It has nothing to do with Beato's games, and its rules are way too conflicting with everything we had seen so far.

However, there are indeed very troubling points such like Ange not willing to open the cat box, the circumstances behind Ikuko finding Touya and so forth.
But right now, I really fail to see what is that trend. I really think a sizable amount of people are catching spoilers in the very wrong way (just like the ridiculous "Bern cat, lambda cake" stuff.

[Key Board]

I see him more as someone who knew about his parents plans but couldn't do anything to stop it

the best he could do was to try and save Yasu

and he failed that too

he's a tragic character

[Dormeur]

That was certainly not even mentioned in Episode 8. I have no idea where this spoiler is from, but unless I really missed a giant flag, there wasn't even the slightest indication of this.



It's one of guesswork some Japanese fans (includes me) begin after having read EP8.
Of course, the idea 'Battler is the culprit' spoiles large part of Umineko's story.
However, please recall the article in which Ryukishi07 talked about 後期クイーン的問題 (I don't know how it is translated in English).

[witchfan]

It's one of guesswork some Japanese fans (includes me) begin after having read EP8.
Of course, the idea 'Battler is the culprit' spoiles large part of Umineko's story.
However, please recall the article in which Ryukishi07 talked about 後期クイーン的問題 (I don't know how it is translated in English).

"Last part queen problem" is what we call it, I believe.

[Nero Allelujah]

All past truths are overshadowed by the future ones basically, right?

[Rias]

Finally finished reading ep8. I must confess that my interest in the series has dwindled since last year, and I'm not sure what was the main cause of it. Perhaps I was satisfied with some of the theories (and the fact that they get reaffirmed again and again), didn't want to keep up/participate with the load of theories on here/2ch/official board, that eventually lead to me to stop thinking about it much since Ep6. Or maybe it's the anime, but I'm not going to jab at that here :heh: That's not to say that the series got boring, it's something I can't really put into words.

Without more mumbling, my thoughts on ep8:

The story itself is a bit messy. It jumps from parts to parts, but manages to wrap up nicely near the end for an acceptable ending. Most of the 1st half of the story (chapter-wise) is just fluff without much meanings. Perhaps it's just the setup for Eva for the 2nd half of the story.

The 2nd half of the story, after Bern's game, is the core of this episode. It is where most of the action and development of the story is at. The single truth that Ange (and readers like me) wants, and wills of the denizens trying to preserve their story. The identity of the goats is interesting, and an accurate perception of it. You have goats who believes in magic, and those who denies magic. You have goats that have certain claims regarding the story, but weren't good enough to prove other things. It was good to see several ideas being confirmed, but none of the goat claims came as a surprise. Mostly claims that I've heard before and accepted, or wild claims that I know are false.

The only thing I was expecting, but didn't see, is some of the popular but wild theories being presented here, or by the elite goats at the golden land. It's also good to see the fantasy fights, but I find some of the fights kinda dry. It was only until they fought again in the golden land, and in library, that the fighting scenes got better.

The way the game ends with two different endings (one being the real ending as it leads to more story after the tea party) was interesting. The "trick" ending, explains the ending of ep4, which I was afraid of being not being revealed. The "magic" ending is definitely the better ending, especially when Touya got to the orphanage at the end. However, the "trick" ending is the ending that I find to be more acceptable.
Overall, the ending itself was better, and much more acceptable, than Matsuribayashi-hen for Higurashi was.





1. "Eva Oba-san is always on your side" -> "So that's what you meant by that..." (near the end)

2. "I'm getting the best supporting actress award! And I better be in top 5 of the popularity votes!"

3. "THE WORLD!" (jojo part 3)+ "HEAVEN'S DOOR!" (jojo part 4) = Featherine power

4. Rosa Musou

5. "You knew the answer from the start..." -> "I only came to that answer at the moment of your attack."



In the end, the episode didn't reveal much about the core of the mystery: the single truth. While much of the mystery has been solved/hinted, those are mostly of the other episodes. With the single truth being unrevealed, I can't help but feel a bit left out. I get the whole "preserving the cat box" thing, but the episode re-ignited my need to know, and I can't help but speculate the events that happened in ep3, that lead to the ending we see today. Or perhaps I just missed reading some parts in ep8 where they explained it.


Just like Higurashi, I've quite enjoyed Umineko. As they said in the tea party, "we'll meet again, at something no naku koro ni!"

[ChaosDimension]

If this early spoilers are correct then I wasn't too far off. Looks like Ryukishi was right, you can solve this case before chiru.

Here's the links to my theory post ep3 and pre ep4

http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=2594054#post2594054
http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=2609670#post2609670

[crazysjd89]

My thoughts on Episode 8:

In short, I really liked it, despite not straightforwardly answering the mystery.

Of course, I'm a bit let down that the mystery wasn't explained more in detail, esspecially the motive (which, no matter how I look at it, is terrible.). I'd like a more concrete end, but regardless, it's not like he completly left us in the dark, as you can more or less figure it out on your own or add your own spin to it. While I still feel a bit let down by it, there are much worse ways it could have ended (the red truth was all a lie, Ange dreamed everything).

For a mystery, that might be a subpar ending, but Umineko is multi-genred, I would say. It had a lot going on in it, a lot more then just 'mystery'. And I feel that, it addressing these sections are what make me really love the ending, despite the slight let down on the mystery part.

I felt so many emotions throughout reading the whole episode. When you feel emotions while reading a story, that generally means the story is well written (you have an attachment to the characters, and it's written well.). Throughout all of Episode 8 (and the series in general), Ryukishi managed to make you feel for something, despite how you felt. For example, when Lambda was killed, I felt that Battler and Ange would get out of it for sure, but I still felt tension through the scene. Then, despite being immediatdly after, when Ange was about to be killed, I still felt tense on that scene also.

The pacing was a bit strange, but not nearly enough to ruin the story for me.

So basically, from a mystery aspect, the ending might not be very good, but from a different aspect, I enjoyed the ending. If it weren't for Episode 7, specifically, Will 'tearing the illusion from fiction', then I might not have been able to enjoy this episode as much certainly. But with that, it feels like we got enough answers to justify the ending of Episode 8.

[Klashikari]

There are times I wish instant translation was humanly possible, as I'm starting being ticked off by people around me pulling ridiculous statements based on spoilers alone.

If any VN readers see a mistake in the points and interpretations made, please correct me ASAP:


-The meta world was only in Yasu/Touya's head!

No, no, no and no folks. The meta world was actually confirmed. Why is that? There are only points that indicate it does exist
1) Ange, as Hisashi Yukari, remembers perfectly that Bern's stated in red that Battler died. This would arguably not be highlighted if it was a fiction. Furthermore, we know that "Hachijou Toya" has written Banquet, Alliance and End, but there was no indication it includes the meta world bikering.
Furthermore, the ???? tea party confirms that Ange -never- met "Hachijou Touya" (actually Ikuko) before because Touya refused. Therefore, as already suggested in Episode 6 with Ange's fuzzy memories: that meeting was -part- of the meta game where Ange is recruited as a temporary miko.

2) Ange was still in her depressive, nearly suicidal mood (as shown her location where she was about to jump off from the building) just before she decides to overcome the situation and follows a new life.
This drastic change of heart was only because she remembers what happened in the meta world.

3) The tea party being completely unrelated to the tale, yet we have meta world characters whereabouts etc. Also, Bern suggesting they might meet each other in another * no naku koro ni.

4) There is no "bern cat, lambda cake" at all. Sure, Hachijou Ikuko has a cat named bern, but she is the human counterpart of Featherine after all, so is that surprising? For all it takes, Bern never switches between human and meta world in this episode.
The lambda cake was probably something taken when Bern "ate" Lambda, as she was initially thought to be scrapped into candies during their first confrontation.
Unless I missed something in the initial flashback of Touya, there is no mention of either bern or lambda in the ???? party.

Thus, concluding that "everything was in Battler's head due to the amnesia" doesn't make any sense. Moreso because of the end of ???? party.



-Rudolf and Kyrie are the culprits with Battler. LOLGOLD.

That may be the conclusion of Episode 7, but as I stated several times already: that cannot be applied in Episode 8 at all.
Once for all: the whole murder game was only some little game Bern has prepared for Battler and Beato, as a stalling method so Ange may rebel against Battler's "game".
1) A lot of rules do not make sense with Beato's games. More importantly, the fact "no one can use the master key, except their respective owner" and so forth are not practical. Bern stated clearly she made these rules to oversimplify her tale.
2) There is absolutely no character build up whatsoever: Bern has exposed straight the discoveries and murders setup
3) Battler's behavior is not only not convincing, but also go against Virgilia's red (which does state games etc)
4) Battler and Beato were fired up by this gameboard, and invited every denizens of the Golden Land to challenge it, despite it could very well backfire at them if Ange learns about it later on. Basically: this does not represent the truth, or has a chunk that is wrong.

Of course, I do not claim that "there is no way for Rudolf and Kyrie to be the culprits", but the whole deal with them PLUS Battler is nonsensical at best. Suffice to say, there are odd points regarding Battler, such like being alive and so forth. But Bern's little show is definitely not part of the beato's games.
So claiming the "mystery portion" of the franchise is solved like that is just not credible.

That is basically the same silly situation we had with Episode 7: people mistaking what happened with Eva, people having a very weird interpretation of Yasu's despair etc.

[MeoTwister5]

There are times I wish instant translation was humanly possible, as I'm starting being ticked off by people around me pulling ridiculous statements based on spoilers alone.

If any VN readers see a mistake in the points and interpretations made, please correct me ASAP:


-The meta world was only in Yasu/Touya's head!

No, no, no and no folks. The meta world was actually confirmed. Why is that? There are only points that indicate it does exist
1) Ange, as Hisashi Yukari, remembers perfectly that Bern's stated in red that Battler died. This would arguably not be highlighted if it was a fiction. Furthermore, we know that "Hachijou Toya" has written Banquet, Alliance and End, but there was no indication it includes the meta world bikering.
Furthermore, the ???? tea party confirms that Ange -never- met "Hachijou Touya" (actually Ikuko) before because Touya refused. Therefore, as already suggested in Episode 6 with Ange's fuzzy memories: that meeting was -part- of the meta game where Ange is recruited as a temporary miko.

2) Ange was still in her depressive, nearly suicidal mood (as shown her location where she was about to jump off from the building) just before she decides to overcome the situation and follows a new life.
This drastic change of heart was only because she remembers what happened in the meta world.

3) The tea party being completely unrelated to the tale, yet we have meta world characters whereabouts etc. Also, Bern suggesting they might meet each other in another * no naku koro ni.

4) There is no "bern cat, lambda cake" at all. Sure, Hachijou Ikuko has a cat named bern, but she is the human counterpart of Featherine after all, so is that surprising? For all it takes, Bern never switches between human and meta world in this episode.
The lambda cake was probably something taken when Bern "ate" Lambda, as she was initially thought to be scrapped into candies during their first confrontation.
Unless I missed something in the initial flashback of Touya, there is no mention of either bern or lambda in the ???? party.

Thus, concluding that "everything was in Battler's head due to the amnesia" doesn't make any sense. Moreso because of the end of ???? party.



-Rudolf and Kyrie are the culprits with Battler. LOLGOLD.

That may be the conclusion of Episode 7, but as I stated several times already: that cannot be applied in Episode 8 at all.
Once for all: the whole murder game was only some little game Bern has prepared for Battler and Beato, as a stalling method so Ange may rebel against Battler's "game".
1) A lot of rules do not make sense with Beato's games. More importantly, the fact "no one can use the master key, except their respective owner" and so forth are not practical. Bern stated clearly she made these rules to oversimplify her tale.
2) There is absolutely no character build up whatsoever: Bern has exposed straight the discoveries and murders setup
3) Battler's behavior is not only not convincing, but also go against Virgilia's red (which does state games etc)
4) Battler and Beato were fired up by this gameboard, and invited every denizens of the Golden Land to challenge it, despite it could very well backfire at them if Ange learns about it later on. Basically: this does not represent the truth, or has a chunk that is wrong.

Of course, I do not claim that "there is no way for Rudolf and Kyrie to be the culprits", but the whole deal with them PLUS Battler is nonsensical at best. Suffice to say, there are odd points regarding Battler, such like being alive and so forth. But Bern's little show is definitely not part of the beato's games.
So claiming the "mystery portion" of the franchise is solved like that is just not credible.

That is basically the same silly situation we had with Episode 7: people mistaking what happened with Eva, people having a very weird interpretation of Yasu's despair etc.

I think this has mostly to do with the rather mistaken insinuation that the Kyrie-Rudolph Murder Solution is the one true solution to the murders, despite the fact that:

1. The presented evidence supporting this are merely circumstantial.
2. No evidence exists to prove beyond reasonable doubt (the primary consideration for conviction in a criminal trial) that they are the ones who did it.
3. It has been mentioned a few times that this interpretation is fitting and convenient with the data at hand, but not because it is know to be THE only explanation.

It becomes a process of induction rather than deduction, where events are interpreted precisely towards supporting the preconceived conclusion, rather than interpreting events to derive a possible conclusion. The former is exactly the opposite methodology of an investigation.

[witchfan]

I think you're mixing a bit of your own interpretation into those corrections: we don't know exactly in what sense the metaworld is real or isn't real. But I'll agree Bern = cat and Lambda = cake is a bit ridiculous, as are "metaworld is only in X's head" theories.

We also don't know in what sense the events of the island are real. I personally am quite convinced by your points, but there are good claims to the contrary:
* Why show it in EP8? What purpose does the game serve? In which way is it closure?
* I had the feeling Battler and Beato challenged it merely because they didn't want anyone to open the catbox, and don't think it's important (we already know Battler is quite delusional).
* About Virgilia, I think they were talking about two different definitions of culprit.

You can argue (and maybe even prove) these arguments are wrong, but your conclusions won't be something that is immediately derived from reading EP8. They would be the result of complex reasoning and examination of evidence.

[Klashikari]

In a sense, I cannot define what is exactly the metaworld.

However, I can be certain that it is not in Touya's head at all. Quite the contrary: there are enough evidences showing that the metaworld is something unrelated to the "storytelling" done by Hachijou Touya.
Of course, we all had naturally concluded that the metaworld has -no impact- towards the events on Rokkenjima of the real world. However, they are part of the story telling for the franchise, but certainly not a metafiction as I explained earlier.

As for the games, there are 2 of them in Episode 8:
-Bern's game: as I already explained, this game served as some entertainment for Battler and Beato, but it was just a guise so Ange would actually question even more the game Battler has woven for her.
-Battler's game: a "journey" to show to Ange that the truth isn't what it matters the most in her case.

Furthermore, if you read every reactions Battler and Beato had while facing this game (along with the hints), it was pure curiosity and amusement there. It didn't have any sense of gravity, nor any sense of urgency, except at the start when they were worried about Ange, but relaxed immediately after setting terms and conditions with Bern (along with a nanoha's style friendship).
For all it takes, it really goes against their stance of "sealing the catbox" assuming Bern's game was the truth.

Even if Virgilia used a different definition of "culprit" than Bernkastel, the second part of the red goes against Bern's definition: Battler didn't kill anyone.
If he didn't, he cannot be considered as a culprit with Bernkastel definition. However, he did lie once with the purple (via Shannon's purple).
Ergo, there is no way for this tale to be applicable with the rest of Beato's game.


Except for Battler's status as the culprit being disproved with the franchise as a whole, the rest is pretty much from Episode 8 alone.

[Circular Logic]

* Why show it in EP8? What purpose does the game serve? In which way is it closure?.

As far as I can see, the entire purpose of ep8 was:

To push two conflicting 'versions of the truth' onto Ange. Bern wanted ange to believe one version (whatever that might be, I think it's that Battler was the culprit for various long reasons).

On the other hand, Battler was trying to stop Ange from finding out Bern's truth and if that failed, make her ignore it at all costs.

Battler being the culprit makes a lot of sense then. Battler's 'game' was designed to brainwash Ange into not finding the truth out and then when that failed making her ignore it.

That also explains why Eva was 'protecting' Ange (from the truth that her brother was the culprit) and why Ange reacted so badly to it in the metaworld.

Obviously the theory itself needs more foundation than that, but it''s the general outline.

RE the red: Isn't one of the points o of ep8 to show that the red probably can't be trusted?

[Klashikari]

The point of Episode 8 was actually how you can have your own truth, regardless how absolute "the" truth is.
Which can be assumed as the definition of the golden truth (considering what happened with Ange against Bern).

[Circular Logic]

The point of Episode 8 was actually how you can have your own truth, regardless how absolute "the" truth is.
Which is basically the definition of the golden truth.

Which is of course, what we're doing right now.

It would be very fitting for ryukishi to leave several theories as possible, making the entire series one big catbox. :)

[witchfan]

Hmm. I relent, then. I skimmed parts of the episode, so I can't present evidence to the contrary. Might very well be poor reading on my part.

[Klashikari]

It would be very fitting for ryukishi to leave several theories as possible, making the entire series one big catbox. :)
That's actually the reason why he made the ending of that kind, especially if we consider a meta existence of his own, through Hachijou Ikuko (and moreso with the Golden Land war, and every goats running around).

In fact, every single "mystery" of Umineko turned into a catbox: the truth, yasu, Lion's gender etc.

He obviously has the means and possibility to burst open the catbox, but for the better or for the worse decided not to.

[TheForsaken]

RE the red: Isn't one of the points o of ep8 to show that the red probably can't be trusted?
No, there's nothing deny the Red Truth's credibility.
But EP8's point is: Even if the Red Truth can be trusted, you can choose not to trust it.
In short, whatever you believe is true, even if the Red Truth states otherwise.
That's the Golden Truth, the truth that you believe in. And you can use the Golden Truth, your subjective truth, to deny the Red Truth, the objective truth.

[Kirroha]

Sorry if I'm wrong, but isn't Lion's gender almost confirmed to be female? After all Lion was the same person as Yasu, and Yasu was definitely stated to be of the opposite gender of Battler. At the worst I'd think it's an infertile female, but probably not hermaphrodite/male.

[Circular Logic]

No, there's nothing deny the Red Truth's credibility.
But EP8's point is: Even if the Red Truth can be trusted, you can choose not to trust it.
In short, whatever you believe is true, even if the Red Truth states otherwise.
That's the Golden Truth, the truth that you believe in. And you can use the Golden Truth, your subjective truth, to deny the Red Truth, the objective truth.

Doesn't that undermine the very existence of the red truth?

After all, ryukishi said several times that red truth only is true if you believe in its existence. There's no way to prove that the red is actually true. It's one of those devil's proof thingamabobs.

[witchfan]

You're way off about the red truth. What Beato was saying is basically "consider it the language of axioms". Whatever said in red is an axiom. It's impossible to prove a theorem without a set of axioms. They're something we accept without proof, so we can continue onwards with our reasoning. So yes, in essence, you can deny the red truth, but then you wouldn't have anything to stand on when trying to figure out the mystery... or so one would think.

[MeoTwister5]

The final moments before the murder game begins:

MetaWorld
- Bern says this is the end of this story. It is regarded as straightforward and to the point. Ber explains that the purple text is almost equivalent to the red in detailing a true statement, with the exception that the criminal can use the red to lie.
- Bern explains the rules that govern her games (The Rule Set).

The Rule Set
- The criminal is the murderer.
- The criminal may tell lies.
- The criminal may have been lying before murdering.
- Those who are not criminals can only tell the truth.
- One who is not the criminal is not cooperating with the criminal.
- The criminal commits murders by their own hands.
- The criminal cannot die.
- The criminal is one of the characters.
- The Purple and Red text are identical in value. However, the criminal may lie with the purple text.

- Battler, Beato and Lambda analyze the rules. They wonder about the possibility of an accomplice if the rules deny it. They realize the rules also disallow traps, murderer's suicide and an unknown person X.
- Bern clarifies that there are 17 people by removing Kinzo. Beato finds the capacity of the criminal to lie with purple troublesome.
- In red Bern says that (I have a bit of a problem with this line) the story direction (ト書き) is not part of the dialogue, and is therefore not a lie. (I'm not sure what her point is with his, I presume she's saying that all actions that are not simply said by the characters that occur are real and treated as such.)
- Lambda in red guarantees that the available information guarantees identifying the criminal. Battler agrees to the red text stated.
- The narrator recommends getting a pen and paper for a logic map. The narrator issues a challenge to us, the readers, to attempt this final puzzle.

- Bern: (I have a bit of a problem with this line) the story direction (ト書き) is not part of the dialogue, and is therefore not a lie. (I'm not sure what her point is with his, I presume she's saying that all actions that are not simply said by the characters that occur are real and treated as such.)
- Lambda: the available information guarantees the possibility of identifying the criminal.

The murder game begins after this. At this point you are allowed to make the choices yourself by reviewing data and all that. I will post screenshots later.

[TheForsaken]

Doesn't that undermine the very existence of the red truth?

After all, ryukishi said several times that red truth only is true if you believe in its existence. There's no way to prove that the red is actually true. It's one of those devil's proof thingamabobs.
You're right. But, well, it's kinda hard to explain.

The Red Truth is what everyone recognizes as the absolute truth.
But you can choose not to believe that absolute truth, i.e. what everyone believe.
Even if the whole world believe in something, you're free to believe otherwise.

[Circular Logic]

You're way off about the red truth. What Beato was saying is basically "consider it the language of axioms". Whatever said in red is an axiom. It's impossible to prove a theorem without a set of axioms. They're something we accept without proof, so we can continue onwards with our reasoning. So yes, in essence, you can deny the red truth, but then you wouldn't have anything to stand on when trying to figure out the mystery... or so one would think.

You can reason using empirical evidence. That is, everything that happens in the 'real' world, and things that don't happen on the game board in the meta world.

[witchfan]

Would help if we know what the real world was, though.

@Meo- wasn't she talking about the narration?

[Klashikari]

You're right. But, well, it's kinda hard to explain.
Considering how the perception of "truth" is itself subjective most of the case, it is no wonder you can't have a solid way to define it.

However, an analogy is possible:
Let's compare truth with faith (not necessarily religion), you can immediately have an idea of the nature of truth.
It is all about conviction after all: you can't argue with anything you got, it doesn't mean everyone will agree, no matter the evidences you show (concepts, religions difference etc).

Heck, even many scientific evidences that are "absolute truth" are still looked down or sneered by people who have their own interpretation.
How about Featherine's example? The situation between geocentrism and heliocentrism.

[MeoTwister5]

Would help if we know what the real world was, though.

@Meo- wasn't she talking about the narration?

I had a bit of trouble with what she meant by story direction (actually the dictionary says it means stage direction, but story seems more appropriate). So yes, my understanding is that all the events presented due to the story's direction are true according to the red.

I have a question for the murder game: I completed all the quiz events and got all the medals. How many "hints" are listed in the hints section of the murder game and does reading them affect the game?

[witchfan]

Faith is not a good way to describe it. There is a thin line between axioms and faith, but it is crucial nonetheless: faith is what we believe unconditionally, while axioms are what we assume to be true, so we would be able to reason. If you assume red truth is like 'faith', then if Beato were to say something like "Witches did it" you would accept it. If you assume the red truths are axioms, then after seeing that, you would no longer accept them as such.

[Klashikari]

I said "compare". They are fundamentally different as you say, I never stated otherwise... (especially what I mention was the perception of truth in general sense)

[witchfan]

Right, they are fundamentally different, which is why I don't think 'faith' is a good way to describe it. It's an inaccurate analogy. Faith is a belief; axioms are a tool. I wasn't saying you don't understand this.

[Realus]

I have a question for the murder game: I completed all the quiz events and got all the medals. How many "hints" are listed in the hints section of the murder game and does reading them affect the game?

21 Hints
Whenever you guess the culprit wrong, a hint is used. (Or you can just go straight for hints without guessing)

When all hints are revealed, there's pretty much no way you can mess up selecting the culprit, but even if you still choose wrong, it's not game over or anything. Just pick another.

I'm not sure if it affects anything else in the game, but I liked reading them because of the interaction between Battler and Beato. I bet this is how they were in their youth reading together.

I did however keep a save before the hints, and used that to solve Bern's game. Just to make it seem like Battler is good at mystery novels. (And by this, I mean in my POV, nothing as far as I could tell was changed)
I sadly couldn't solve it in the first shot. But once a certain hint came up, I figured it out right away.
More than one culprit. Of course all previous hints were also very helpful. (Especially because they eliminated 9/17 people.)

---

I overall enjoyed the episode (and in turn, the series).
I can't wait for the translations on the ending parts which aren't hooked into AGTH.

Favorite scene of the game for me would probably have to be Knox and Dine's Mystery Defense.

Because of all the fight scenes... that reminds me...
*Cough*Krauss/Rosa/George/Jessica/Maria/Gaap/Erika/Dlanor/Will/Bernkastel/Lambdadelta for Ougon please*cough*

[yuugi99]

To say that I did not enjoy ep8 would be a lie. However I got a feeling that Ryukishi has betrayed me and most readers. If it would release as a single game, the damage would be at least minimal. But 4 years of solving mysteries that were never answer or was never a mystery to begin with was just so........ betrayed.

I wonder how is the Japanese netizens reacting now?

[MeoTwister5]

He already said that he doesn't intend to give an answer, that the mystery has no one truth, and that the "mystery" is not the center months and months ago. Did people not get the memo or something?

People have been told that this isn't the ship they initially thought it was and that they could have jumped off if they wanted by the writer himself. He didn't betray anyone. Betrayal means he lied. He didn't lie because he already admitted that this isn't what a lot of people think or want it to be. People had a choice to go on or get off.

Complaining about something you should have already realized because the writer himself said so is pointless. You were told what this was going to be but you stuck with it anyway. You knew what this was going to be. Complaining about it now is pointless. This has been set in stone since the day he revealed his intentions. Get over it people. If you want to speculate and voice your opinions about the series, do it in the other thread. This isn't the place for it.

[Circular Logic]

To say that I did not enjoy ep8 would be a lie. However I got a feeling that Ryukishi has betrayed me and most readers. If it would release as a single game, the damage would be at least minimal. But 4 years of solving mysteries that were never answer or was never a mystery to begin with was just so........ betrayed.

I wonder how is the Japanese netizens reacting now?

From what I can tell from 2ch, the reaction has been really rather positive.

[Rias]

From what I can tell from 2ch, the reaction has been really rather positive.

positive with endings/????, but yet bitter with the story presentation or lack of truth revealing.

[MeoTwister5]

Twilight of the Golden Witch: The Murder Game

This is the murder game, where you now choose the solution to the final game of Rokkenjima. Yes, there is enough information to discover who the villain is for this last game.

(Test in parenthesis are my own analysis and tips)

http://meotwister5.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/the-murder-game.jpg

The Choices:

1. Reread the Story
2. Display the Rules
3. Confirm Purple Text
4. Hints
5. Choose the Criminal

Hint 1
- Beato raises the issue of how to even infer which purple is the criminallying and which is valid truth. Battler and Lambda admit that you have to be discerning in what to believe. Battler says flip over the board. Analyze the purple from the POV of the criminal and see what how he would lie and with what.

Hint 2
- Beato raises the issue of the POVs of the regular characters. Battler repeats the statement that the criminal can die or be dead. Beato asks if the purple text about death are reliable, especially with Nanjo. They think of the possibility of Nanjo being part of it and lying with the purple. They realize that if the criminal can lie, then there is no guarantee that the purple confirms that any of the people are dead.

Hint 3
- Beato realizes that with Bern's red, the only lies are in the speech, and all presented events that were seen can be considered true. The differentiation of truth from lies exist within the words spoken by the characters. They first try to validate what is evident in the presented events.

Hint 4
- Beato notices something in the seventh death involving Nanjo. Battler sees something with Jessica's death. Both can be considered confirmed dead with the story's direction and not necessarily requiring a purple to confirm. They realize that both Jessica and Nanjo and really dead. THEREFORE, NEITHER JESSICA OR NANJO CAN BE THE CRIMINAL. THEREFORE, THEIR PURPLE TEXT ARE VALID. The two go back through the purple of Nanjo and Jessica.

(Consider Nanjo. His purple before he died confirms the deaths of people, and because he is not the criminal, his purple is considered true and the people he autopsied are dead. By logical extension, because said people are dead, the dead he has confirmed cannot be the criminals because the criminal cannot be dead according to the rules. Further extrapolation will then reveal that because non-murderers will always tell the truth, the purple truth stated by the ones he has autopsied must therefore be true. Notice however that he does not confirm in purple the deaths of Rosa, Hideyoshi, Eva, Rudolph and Kyrie. Consider now Shannon, who DOES state that the child confirmed Kyrie and Rudolph to be dead, but it does not validated whether the child's confirmation was CORRECT.)

(At this point, we consider that the purple text of innocent people are true.)

Hint 5
- They confirm that Nanjo and Jessica spoke truth. They also realize my previous assessment of the rules, and therefore conclude that the dead people he confirmed cannot be criminals, namely Krauss, Natsuhi, Shannon, Gohda, Kumasawa. These people, as well as Nanjo and Jessica, are excluded from the list of suspects. They add Kanon to this due to the red given by Bern and validated by the rules.
- Lambda is surprised they managed to remove 8 people this fast.

Hint 6
- They also add Genji to this list. 9 people down. They begin to investigate the purples of the confirmed innocent suspects. They also realize that the purples regarding the first 6 victims does not exactly define them as dead but only bloodied.
- Battler says that neither he, Maria nor George managed to confirm their parents dead, although they notice that Shannon in purple says that "the child" confirmed the death of the child's parents. They realize, with Lambda's help, my previous assessment of that autopsy that they don't know if the child's autopsy was correct.
- They also realize that they cannot eliminate the last three survivors as suspects.

Hint 7
- Battler realizes that none of the master keys could have been used because none of the servants are criminals and only they could have used their keys. They wonder how then the criminal got access. They analyze the possibility of a secret trick.

Hint 8
- Beato postulates that the criminal may be part of the unconfirmed deaths in the dining room, locking the room and faking death and leaving afterwards. They wonder how to lock the rooms from the outside.
- She mistakenly assumes the six first victims are innocent and Battler corrects her.

Hint 9
- They analyze Natsuhi's room. All the members went to the room together after wondering what took them so long. Whoever it is, they think the criminal must have hidden in the room apart from everyone else, but people returned to the drawing room after seeing the scene. The red truth of definitely killing 6 people baffles them.
- They realize that when Bern said the red regarding the criminal having killed 6 people by that time, this (?) includes Krauss and Natsuhi.

(What does this mean? Consider that there are ideally 8 people dead by the time Bern mentions this red truth. However only the criminal can kill, and if he has killed 6 people, there seems to exist the possibility that only 6/8 people are dead by that time. I assume the possibility that perhaps 2 people from the 8 might actually be alive! One, or both, of these persons may be the criminal.)

(Consider as well that they didn't seal the dining room immediately. It may be that whoever faked death managed to get out without limits.)

Hint 10
- Battler and Beato realize that indeed, perhaps 2 of the 8 people may be alive to satisfy the 6 people red text. They theorize that the killer only killed 5 people in the dining room before proceeding to Natsuhi's room. They then wonder how someone could be hiding in her room.

Hint 11
- Battler theorizes that there might be a second criminal in the story. The first one might have been the one who killed Natsuhi and Krauss by hiding in the room. They think is might be either Battler, George or Maria who killed the rest.

(At this point I find it odd they don't consider that the second criminal might be one of the eight.)

Hint 12
- For Shannon's murder, they exclude George because he could not have killed her. They think it is either Maria or Battler. They cannot yet discount someone else. They find difficulty in determining who a possible second criminal could be.

Hint 13
- For Gohda and Kumasawa, they are limited by the statement that the four remaining family and Nanjo could not have killed those two. They believe that this proves that there must be someone else who killed these two, suggesting that a second criminal must exist.
- Both gain a lot of confidence.

Hint 14
- They begin to investigate the final murders and wonder about the child who performed an autopsy. They still think it is either Battler, George or Maria.
- They reasses the previous idea because the three final survivors could not have killed the last victims alone. They now consider that there may be three criminals. They also reasses the first 5 unsure victims for a possible third criminal.

Hint 15
- For Jessica, The three final survivors could not have killed her. They asses George's purple that Maria could not have killed anyone. They also asses Maria's purple that George could not have killed an adult, but he can kill a child. These two are considered in conflict like the chicken and egg problem. These two might be innocent.

Hint 16
- They attempt to verify Maria. They presume that Rosa would be part of this, and that Rosa would have been the killer up to Natsuhi and Maria would succeed after. However, Maria would not have been able to kill the guesthouse survivors and Shannon. He reasons that if none of the other first victims is part of it, perhaps a 4th person is part of the plot. They reason that if Maria is the criminal, there must be more conspirators to compensate for Maria's limitations.
- In this case, the first killer is an adult that killed the first two events. The second adult kills in the guesthouse. This might be impossible because a second adult besides Rosa would be needed, and a child could not have killed in the first two events. They also reason that the child who did the autopsy could not exist because it goes beyond the limit.
- Maria is unlikely.

Hint 17
- They verify George. If it is George, then Eva and Hideyoshi could be in on it. This gives 2 adults and one child. They however remember that George could not have killed Shannon. They remove George as a suspect.

(Let me clarify. The current assumption is that there are three possible criminals. One for the mansion events, one for the guesthouse and maybe one outside. They have reasoned that the mansion and guesthouse killers are adults because the children are excluded by the purple. The outside killer could be a child or one of the previous adults. However Maria is again limited by this and the fact that no viable second adult could be considered. George is also limited because he did not kill Shannon.)

Hint 18
- By purple exclusion, because George is innocent then his statement that Maria could not have killed anyone stands true. Therefore Maria is also innocent they conclude. They now try to identify the final people.

Hint 19
- They now believe it is at least 2 people. A single killer is impossible. They recall the impossibility of locking from the outside without the master keys. They now believe that the child who autopsied their parents must be lying to cover up for them, and is an accomplice. Beato now thinks that the first adult criminal locked themselves in Natsuhi's room. The second adult killed in the guesthouse. The child assisted them.

Hint 20
- Beato is convinced that the criminals are one family unit. They find it disturbing.

Hint 21
- Battler is now convinced that his incarnation in the game is the child who lied on the autopsy. They now have their answer.

(Yeah. The two adults are obvious now. You know who they are.)

http://meotwister5.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/choice.jpg

Make your choice.

Now that's done it's time to choose. As for me I'm going to bed as I've been translating for 6 hours lol.

[Shiro Kaisen]

From what I can tell from 2ch, the reaction has been really rather positive.

This. They're more actively discussing the ending and deciding what it means than crying about how RYUUKISHI BETRAYED THEM! like the English-speaking spoiler-readers. Some people think it was a weak ending and some people feel like Ryuu was too strongly influenced by BT's death, but every other post isn't "GOD UMINEKO SUCKS NOW, EVERYTHING'S FAKE AND NOTHING'S REAL!"

On the contrary, they seem to feel that the Meta-world is, in fact, real.

[MeoTwister5]

This. They're more actively discussing the ending and deciding what it means than crying about how RYUUKISHI BETRAYED THEM! like the English-speaking spoiler-readers. Some people think it was a weak ending and some people feel like Ryuu was too strongly influenced by BT's death, but every other post isn't "GOD UMINEKO SUCKS NOW, EVERYTHING'S FAKE AND NOTHING'S REAL!"

On the contrary, they seem to feel that the Meta-world is, in fact, real.

Heh. It's almost shocking that the Japanese native otaku-dom (with the usual nerdrage stereotype) is more mature about the entire deal than most of the English speaking fanbase that tries to dissociate itself from the negative stigma.

Kind of ironic actually.

[Dormeur]

I wonder how is the Japanese netizens reacting now?

Unfortunately, it seems that many people got anger or were disappointed about lack of revealing the truth.
And they believe that Ryukishi07 described his readers and fans as 'goats' in Episode 8 and that he insulted them as if he has said "I'm God! Whoever takes objection to me is goat!".

Meanwhile, some people are discussing about possibility of another truth or interpretation.

[Shiro Kaisen]

Unfortunately, it seems that many people got anger or were disappointed about lack of revealing the truth.
And they believe that Ryukishi07 described his readers and fans as 'goats' in Episode 8 and that he insulted them as if he has said "I'm God! Whoever takes objection to me is goat!".

Meanwhile, some people are discussing about possibility of another truth or interpretation.

To be fair to the goat bit, the Umineko fandom has been particularly awful at times regarding the mystery. People got absurdly and unnecessarily hostile and defensive about everything and proclaimed they alone understood the mystery. Ryuu isn't insulting the average reader, but the hardcore mystery guys who ruin it for everyone. As a good example, the post-6 "SHANNON HAS DID AND IS KILLING EVERYONE, IF YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND THIS YOU'RE AUTISTIC AND CAN'T READ" people.

[Rias]

To be fair to the goat bit, the Umineko fandom has been particularly awful at times regarding the mystery. People got absurdly and unnecessarily hostile and defensive about everything and proclaimed they alone understood the mystery. Ryuu isn't insulting the average reader, but the hardcore mystery guys who ruin it for everyone. As a good example, the post-6 "SHANNON HAS DID AND IS KILLING EVERYONE, IF YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND THIS YOU'RE AUTISTIC AND CAN'T READ" people.

I thought he was mainly referring goats to people who easily jump on bandwagons, or had theories based on limited knowledge. For example, those who quickly jumped on the anti-fantasy wagon, but didn't have any solutions to tricks in the past episodes. Or those who jumped to conclusion without verification.

And that's probably why some of the more solid theories were not uttered by the goats...

[Renall]

This is going to be too heady, but here is how I would think about the Meta-World.

The Meta-World is a plane of existence drawn from reflection on uncertain speculation. Every idea is here as it's processed by someone seeking information, from speculation, fact, to fiction on the whole. Tohya thinking about being Battler, Ange reading Tohya's stories, would all be represented by the Meta-World.

Of course two people's thoughts can't overlap in the same landscape, but they're not. The Meta-World is an interpretation of all of these thought processes formed into a story. You can think of it as, literally, meta-fiction within the "reality" of the fiction.

So in the sense that one says "the Meta-World really exists," one would be theoretically correct. It's not a place, but it's also not the thoughts and stories themselves, but a layer removed from them. Thoughts and ideas basically ascend to the Meta-World where they take form.

Whether they stop existing because people stop thinking or what happens if the thinkers die or whatever are not material because the Meta-World isn't the thought or the thinker, but a fictionalized representation of all thoughts and thinking. So if you want to believe the Meta-World persists, there's really no reason that it shouldn't.

I guess you could call it the Collective Unconscious, though I'm not sure that's really accurate. Jung's idea is basically that thought is collective though, and that more or less can be used to imagine how the Meta-World might work.That's actually the reason why he made the ending of that kind, especially if we consider a meta existence of his own, through Hachijou Ikuko (and moreso with the Golden Land war, and every goats running around).

In fact, every single "mystery" of Umineko turned into a catbox: the truth, yasu, Lion's gender etc.

He obviously has the means and possibility to burst open the catbox, but for the better or for the worse decided not to.I move for a Logic Error on at least a few of these points. He didn't choose not to answer, he had no answer, nor did he ever intend to come up with one.

"Well, he never intended to" may or may not be true, but it don't stop it from being weaksauce, ladies and gents. Maybe he'll come up with some real answers (or steal the best ones from his fans) and "reveal" them in Umineko Rei.

There's ways to "cheat" without cheating, but he hasn't really done that. And this is coming from somebody who stopped caring about minor details a long time ago. I got the sense around ep6 that he wasn't really caring about any of that stuff, and it kind of more or less turned out to be the case. I'm not sure how you want to describe all of those things (charitably, "garnishing," uncharitably, "filler"), but they were basically more thematically important than actually important. If that's where we were headed all along, that's one thing, but I seem to recall fighting many an uphill battle over the idea that things only really mattered in terms of their overall theme. Believe me, I wanted to be wrong.

Do I need all the little answers? Definitely not. Honestly, stating some of them outright would just be tacky (HEY GUYS, WHAT'S IN YASU'S UNDERPANTS!?). Do I need some proof he himself actually knows what those answers are, even if they don't really matter all that much in the end? Uhhh, yes.

I am not yet convinced. He put that stuff there. Fish or cut bait, ryukishi. You don't have to play your hand, but at least prove to me you were holding the cards.

[Will Wright]

To be fair to the goat bit, the Umineko fandom has been particularly awful at times regarding the mystery. People got absurdly and unnecessarily hostile and defensive about everything and proclaimed they alone understood the mystery. Ryuu isn't insulting the average reader, but the hardcore mystery guys who ruin it for everyone. As a good example, the post-6 "SHANNON HAS DID AND IS KILLING EVERYONE, IF YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND THIS YOU'RE AUTISTIC AND CAN'T READ" people.

Yeah no. Hardcore mystery fans have been claiming that Umineko isn't a proper mystery from the beginning. The people you are referring to aren't mystery fans at all, since a true mystery fan sort of needs to analyse evidence before saying anything. Any 'hardcore' mystery reader as you put it wouldn't jump on a solution before at least book 7 came out, unless your definition of hardcore mystery fan is 'someone who reads Umineko and thinks that understands what a mystery is made of despite not knowing a thing about the genre.'

The people you are referring to are the ones who only have a passing knowledge about the mystery genre and think they know more than anyone. Those are not mystery fans at all. Anyone who read half a mystery novel knows that settling on a solution without thinking is stupid.

The Umineko fandom is awful at times, but that's more often than not coming from the people trying to defend Ryuukishi as a God than anything else.

[Klashikari]

I move for a Logic Error on at least a few of these points. He didn't choose not to answer, he had no answer, nor did he ever intend to come up with one.
It is certainly not the good thread nor the good timing for that, but I seriously wonder how the hell you can have such conclusion, whereas you definitely didn't read Episode 8, nor actually give credits to the actual "intent" of the author.
This is also why Ange's portion of Episode 8 was at first irrelevant, but became actually pertinent with Ryukishi's intent for this epilogue.

I see no objective issue with people being upset and calling "foul play" with Ryukishi not opening the cat box. But it is going a bit preposterous and out of proportion to declare that he just doesn't have any answer.

[Will Wright]

It is certainly not the good thread nor the good timing for that, but I seriously wonder how the hell you can have such conclusion, whereas you definitely didn't read Episode 8, nor actually give credits to the actual "intent" of the author.
This is also why Ange's portion of Episode 8 was at first irrelevant, but became actually pertinent with Ryukishi's intent for this epilogue.

I see no objective issue with people being upset and calling "foul play" with Ryukishi not opening the cat box. But it is going a bit preposterous and out of proportion to declare that he just doesn't have any answer.

As someone who has read episode 8, I agree with Renall, and also have to wonder why you feel the need to point out his reading or not of the episode when his points have no relation to the episode itself, but the series message.

If I were to give you a difficult puzzle and never told you the answer, would it be such a stretch to assume that the puzzle I gave you never had an answer at all?

Let's use poker as an example. If I told you I had a great hand, but refused to show it, it would count as me folding. The rules would assume I was bluffing.

You can't claim you have answers without showing any evidence of such a thing. The moment he refused to open his box, his actual competence was also put inside that box.

At this point, we can claim that he never had an answer in the first place and is just bluffing just as you can claim he has an answer and merely isn't showing it to us.

In a mystery, not showing your hand violates the sense of trust the reader and the writer developed throughout his series. One could argue that since Umineko isn't a mystery, it wouldn't be required to show its hand. But regardless of its mystery status, Ryu's refusal to show us his hand gives us the right to call his bluff.

[Used Can]

But it is going a bit preposterous and out of proportion to declare that he just doesn't have any answer.
Well, ironically, whether R07 had an answer or not is a cat box on itself, I think.

[Circular Logic]

Couldn't you just take it as r07 presented it - as a catbox for people to play around with and create their own golden truth? Looking back from EP2 onwards, it seems pretty clear to me that was his intention.

There's no reason for him to show us his cards. That wasn't the purpose of the series. It's a deconstruction of the fiction genre, not just the mystery genre.

[Will Wright]

Couldn't you just take it as r07 presented it - as a catbox for people to play around with and create their own golden truth? Looking back from EP2 onwards, it seems pretty clear to me that was his intention.

There's no reason for him to show us his cards. That wasn't the purpose of the series. It's a deconstruction of the fiction genre, not just the mystery genre.

People throw the term deconstruction way too lightly. If Ryuukishi was trying to do such a thing with fiction itself, then he either failed miserably or he seriously thinks that storytelling is something that seems like a good idea but really isn't.

I like Umineko's setting and the idea of a catbox makes for some fun fangames. But personally, one of the things that turned me off about Littlebigplanet is how it relied on user made content as it lacked any real content from the beginning.

It's the same thing here.

There is a very good reason why he should show us his cards. If this was indeed his attempt at deconstructing fiction(which sounds absurd) then he failed miserably. If he wanted us to keep theorizing forever from the beginning, his writing should have been different and handled the subject better. It didn't.

Surely you can see a hint or two now that you look back, but creationists can also find evidence to support that the world is only 2000 years old. Know why? Because once you already have the result you want and are just looking for evidence to Chewbacca your way through the proving stages of it, everything seems much more relevant than it actually is.

If he didn't want us to show us his cards, he should at the very least have convinced us he had them. I can say with certainty that he didn't convince me, and judging from this topic I'm not the only one.

If you are content with what he showed us, great! But surely you must understand that some of us simply...aren't.

[Circular Logic]

I think the Japanese in general are more likely to be statisfied with resolutions that don't completely tie everything up. I remember seeing some sort of poll comparing the reactions of western vs. japanese viewers and there was a pronounced difference.

And let's not forget the GAINAX ending...

[witchfan]

Love him or hate him, Ryukishi does have a reputation to uphold. I don't think he would've started writing this painfully long series, would've baited us into treating it as a murder mystery, if he did not have an answer. The key here is past tense, though; I think in midst of writing this series he became self-absorbed enough to forget the point he was trying to make in its entirety. Becoming self-absorbed is not always a bad thing; Evangelion is a great success, Cross Channel is a superb visual novel, and, to give an example from recent times, Subarashiki Hibi is wonderful. Did it work here? Who knows. Maybe in ten years, Ryukishi would be praised for being the founding father of a whole new genre of literature. But, at present, as someone who's been following this series for years, I can't help but feel this is a very dishonest move he's making.

[Rias]

Having the mystery part naturally becoming some delusional fantasy isn't something new by Ryukishi07. Higurashi has already proven that.

Not necessarily a bad thing tho.

[Tyabann]

Well, ironically, whether R07 had an answer or not is a cat box on itself, I think.

Exactly. I mean, speaking thematically here, does it really matter, in the end, whether he has an answer or not?

[Will Wright]

Exactly. I mean, speaking thematically here, does it really matter, in the end, whether he has an answer or not?

It certainly does.

[The Bloodlust Kid]

I'm trying my best to avoid as much spoilers as possible (not working so far). Once I read the thing to try and make more sense of it, am I to expect some sort of Rashomon scenario?

[Used Can]

Exactly. I mean, speaking thematically here, does it really matter, in the end, whether he has an answer or not?
Thematically speaking (as in what he ultimately delivered), probably not. In terms of mystery, I think it definitely does.
More than anything else, I believe this comes down to expectations. The problem here is, I think, even if there was the whole "this could be no mystery" and "R07 doesn't plan to explain everything like in Higurashi" he did fuel many fans' expectations about this being mystery and that there'd be a way to reach a clear answer, even if it wasn't through an obvious mean like in Higurashi - his many tantrums throughout Chiru doesn't make it any better, in my opinion. So, if many people are disappointed, I cannot blame them.

[Renall]

I think the Japanese in general are more likely to be statisfied with resolutions that don't completely tie everything up. I remember seeing some sort of poll comparing the reactions of western vs. japanese viewers and there was a pronounced difference.
I think this is maligned. Japanese people do not necessarily like stories that don't ever indicate whether they have a resolution. I think there is a cultural predisposition to stories without tidy resolutions, which is very much a Hollywood trope.

There's a big difference between "AND EVERYTHING WORKED OUT FINE!" and "not everything worked out, but this story clearly addressed all that it meant to address." Likewise, there is a big difference between the latter and "I just plain forgot/don't care about/never intended to address certain things."

The last of those is not a "Japanese" thing or even a cultural thing. It is a "bad writer, overly forgiving readers" thing. Just because the Japanese reading audience is more comfortable with bittersweet, lingering, or regret-filled resolutions does not mean they are - or should be - comfortable with unresolved and apparently forgotten plot points. If they are, they're bad readers.

Umineko's left a few too many instances of "Who killed Owen Taylor?" And Chandler at least had the testicles to say "Hell if I know."

[Tyabann]

It certainly does.

Well, if you look at Umineko like a virtual reality game, and considering that it's serialized I don't doubt that it was intended to be in some aspect, then what ultimately matters is not whether Ryukishi has a solution but whether WE have a solution.

So, if many people are disappointed, I cannot blame them.

If people are disappointed, then they probably weren't paying very much attention.

I'd have loved some more concrete resolution to the mystery, but given that Ep7 was supposed to be the end to that aspect of the story, I don't see what people were expecting out of Ep8...

[Circular Logic]

I think this is maligned. Japanese people do not necessarily like stories that don't ever indicate whether they have a resolution. I think there is a cultural predisposition to stories without tidy resolutions, which is very much a Hollywood trope.

There's a big difference between "AND EVERYTHING WORKED OUT FINE!" and "not everything worked out, but this story clearly addressed all that it meant to address." Likewise, there is a big difference between the latter and "I just plain forgot/don't care about/never intended to address certain things."

The last of those is not a "Japanese" thing or even a cultural thing. It is a "bad writer, overly forgiving readers" thing. Just because the Japanese reading audience is more comfortable with bittersweet, lingering, or regret-filled resolutions does not mean they are - or should be - comfortable with unresolved and apparently forgotten plot points. If they are, they're bad readers.

Umineko's left a few too many instances of "Who killed Owen Taylor?" And Chandler at least had the testicles to say "Hell if I know."

I'd say the fact that many anime series will simply 'end' after one season (with several manga volumes published/in production) with them walking off into the sunset/beating the boss of the arc and going back to school/deciding to compete for the protagonist's love (yes I'm most definitely thinking of harem anime here) shows that they are rather more tolerant of stories with no resolution.

[rainz]

Thematically, the ending reminds me of the movie Inception.



In the movie, the main character is obsessed with finding out what's real and what's a dream. He's looking for the singular truth. This obsession is something shared by the audience.

But at the end, he gives up this search when he finally meets his kids. He learns to let go and embrace what actually makes him happy.

As the audience, we're left to debate the truth. However, it soon becomes clear that there is no way to get a definite answer. Like the main character, only by accepting that there are more important things than the truth, can we ever be happy with the conclusion.

I think R07 is going for a similar message here. However, the umineko games are much longer than the Inception movie. People are naturally more upset and less eager to accept this message because they've been cracking at the mystery for so long.

[Rias]

I'd say the fact that many anime series will simply 'end' after one season (with several manga volumes published/in production) with them walking off into the sunset/beating the boss of the arc and going back to school/deciding to compete for the protagonist's love (yes I'm most definitely thinking of harem anime here) shows that they are rather more tolerant of stories with no resolution.

That's different. People know that the anime can be restarted since there are material out there, and that's why some series have new seasons coming out after taking a break (for more material from the original source). The ones that end that way while there are more original work to base from are usually ones that aren't popular enough as an anime (ie from DVD sales), or the popularity of the original work has dwindled.

One thing to keep in mind is that Ryukishi07 did express that he si thinking about writing "Rei" for Umineko. IMO, Saikoroshi-hen was a better wrap up than Matsuribayashi-hen was.

[Tyabann]

One thing to keep in mind is that Ryukishi07 did express that he si thinking about writing "Rei" for Umineko. IMO, Saikoroshi-hen was a better wrap up than Matsuribayashi-hen was.

Speaking of which.... after this, how many people here would be willing to read another WTC series?

[witchfan]

I'd say the fact that many anime series will simply 'end' after one season (with several manga volumes published/in production) with them walking off into the sunset/beating the boss of the arc and going back to school/deciding to compete for the protagonist's love (yes I'm most definitely thinking of harem anime here) shows that they are rather more tolerant of stories with no resolution.

There is a difference between having no resolution to most of a story's intrigue and having an open end, and there is a difference between the adventure genre and Umineko's pseudomystery genre.

Speaking of which.... after this, how many people here would be willing to read another WTC series?

I love Higurashi. I don't hate Umineko. So sure, I'm willing to give this franchise another run.

[rainz]

Speaking of which.... after this, how many people here would be willing to read another WTC series?

In a way, I think R07 gets the courage to write a story like this only after he built a reputation as a good mystery writer from Higurashi.

He knew what readers expect of him and proceed to bait us with mystery hooks. Worked well.

In the next WTC series, he just needs to figure out what audience expect from him then and find a way to hook us in, again.

Maybe we'll see a slight shift in genre. I doubt a straight up truth-finding mystery will work again.

[AuraTwilight]

Sorry if I'm wrong, but isn't Lion's gender almost confirmed to be female? After all Lion was the same person as Yasu, and Yasu was definitely stated to be of the opposite gender of Battler. At the worst I'd think it's an infertile female, but probably not hermaphrodite/male.

Yasu's gender is never confirmed. Regardless of what gender s/he is, they had an accident that apparently damaged their ability "to love and be loved" and they were raised as a female. One of my theories is that the injury mangled Male!Yasu's genitals, and so Nanjo had to give him a false vagina so s/he could still urinate and such.

She's so small and petite because without testicular glands, she never experienced a proper puberty.

Speaking of which.... after this, how many people here would be willing to read another WTC series?

I'm not sure. Unless the premise of the next one really grabs me, I probably wont; I don't think he can top Umineko's greatness at this point; for all it's flaws, it's effectively his magnum opus for the incredible emotional manipulation it pulled on tens of millions of people.

[musouka]

Just talking about purely in terms of what disappointed us about the ending, I would say that the mystery aspect is the least of my concerns. I've said time and time again that I found the EP7 ending perfectly satisfactory in that regard, so there wasn't much more to work with from the "reveal" angle.

My issues really stem from the EP7 Tea Party. I think EP8, as a whole, would have been a lot stronger if the EP7 Tea Party had been cleanly excised from Umineko as a whole. (It's hard to get riled up about Ange burgering herself over the truth if she's already burgered herself over something that is, if not the truth, is very close to it. Likewise the sheer brutality of what Bern did made it hard for me to accept her role in EP8 without some resentment on my half.)

But, I can't accept cutting it out either, because the EP7 Tea Party holds my entire heart in its grip. I am a Beatrice fan. I love Ange with all my heart. I am truly happy she got the ending she deserves. But throughout EP8, my mind kept on returning to Clair's body torn to bits on the silent stage, and of the young woman who looked out between the bars of her prison and dared to dream of Lion, only to have that dream cut down in front of her very eyes.

In that respect, I found it hard to like the scenes where Will and Lion were dumped in with all the other meta characters without a word. I find it hard to accept a Lion that can blindly say "I'm Beatrice's last hope" without that having anything to do with the actual plot of EP8, as opposed to EP7 where it actually meant something. And Battler and Beatrice's ending was so beautiful it made me cry, but deep down it also felt a little hollow because there was so little context around it.

I felt like EP7 ended the mystery beautifully. But I felt it left Beatrice in a place where she was still suffering, and it hurt to see that go unacknowledged in EP8. (I actually found the scene in the finale where Ange kept winking her in and out of existence because she dared to flirt with her own husband a little repulsive.) I felt like it flattened Will and Lion by bringing them in without giving them anything important to do.

There are a lot of things to really love about EP8, but I did have those problems in particular with it.

[Used Can]

If people are disappointed, then they probably weren't paying very much attention.
I don't think it's about paying attention, and I think that's a rather arrogant thing to say, since I'm sure many people who have been reading this novel, and have been "paying attention" as you say, are probably disappointed as well. EP7 was supposed to be the end of the mystery, but given the rather unclear resolution we had in EP7, it's no wonder some people expected something out of this epilogue to make this apparent mystery a bit more clear. I won't deny, though, there were many people who seemed to expect EP8 would suddenly be full of twists about how all the apparent clues and leads we received in EP6 and EP7 would turn out to be fully misinterpreted and we'd reach an entirely different conclusion. That was delusional. However, expecting a bit more clearness and tidiness is something I cannot blame the readers for.

Let us not even mention not everyone reads R07's interviews, nor is the duty of the reader to do so.

I love Higurashi. I don't hate Umineko. So sure, I'm willing to give this franchise another run.
Maybe, but I'd wait until it ends, read some opinions on the whole thing, and then see if I think I want to read it.

[Renall]

Speaking of which.... after this, how many people here would be willing to read another WTC series?I wouldn't. I liked Umineko in spite of Higurashi, and I'm not all that impressed with Umineko in the end. That's not to say I don't like it, I just don't think it's good enough for the time invested. Had it not taken four years it'd be one thing (taken entirely on its own, Legend of the Golden Witch is a pretty good story, but the time/quality ratio starts flagging by mid-Alliance and craters in Chiru).

He's a good character writer, a good dialogue writer, a terrible descriptive writer, a terrible expository writer, handles his themes hamfistedly (but competently compared to most amateurs), and he desperately needs an editor. For a professional writer (and he is a professional writer, even if WTC is a "doujin" series), he is merely not bad at what he does.

Call me a picky snob (I am) but I didn't get out of many years' interest what I put into it. I have no particular reason to believe he's likely to change and improve unless he makes a definite commitment to professionalism in the future.

[Will Wright]

Speaking of which.... after this, how many people here would be willing to read another WTC series?

I'm going to read it, but I'm not going to think about it. I only caught up with Umineko once episode 7 came out, but I can only imagine just how pissed I would be if it build up for four long years until this sort of ending.

I'll read it with a "eh why not" sort of approach. It's not a very expensive series, and it has got decent length.

[Circular Logic]

I think one can look at the entire series more sympathetically if it's read back-to-back rather than as serialised. I read eps 1-7 two weeks ago in the space of five days and then ep 8 as it came out. As a result I didn't really spend that much time theorising over the whodunnits. Indeed by the end I felt most of eps1-4 didn't matter as much (that is to say I felt a resolution wasn't what r07 was aiming at). If you've been mulling this over for four years and were expecting a complete solution I can understand why you'd be annoyed (even though I don't agree).

On a more humdrum note:

One particular flaw I found with the construction of Ep8 itself was the final battle with bern/erika. Whilst the library side of the battle was relatively interesting, if slightly drawn out, the golden land side was horribly boring, especially in the first half. Endless descriptions of a fake argument nearly sent me to sleep. In the entire battle nothing really happened and *was* as planned, simply a stalling tactic. That's all very well, but did r07 have to do devote so much time to it? I think a bit more fleshing out of the tea party and the ???? would have been a lot more productive.

Also I rather felt that zts' lastendconductor was rather wasted on that fight scene.

re the would you read another WTC game? Definitely. However as AuraTwilight said, it's essentially his magnum opus, so I'm not entirely sure where he'd go from here. Also I imagine that everyone would be rather more on the look out for hijinks :p

EDIT: Damn, Will Wright read my mind.

[Mikachiru]

Speaking of which.... after this, how many people here would be willing to read another WTC series?

I give up on his series for now. Unless his next one is going to sound interesting (like Umineko was), I'm not going to bother. He's good at writing characters, but he fails in the mystery department (yes, I know. Umineko was never said to be a mystery. But it really felt like one by the end of Alliance). Now, I'm going to lurk and be more butthurt about this...

[Cao Ni Ma]

Speaking of which.... after this, how many people here would be willing to read another WTC series?

As I said before, I'll probably read it depending on the word of mouth. I wont follow it though thats for certain, I'll wait till all of it is done before I dedicate any time to it and it would be entirely passive. I'll just read it and go with it, I wont dedicate any time to reason with it or anything.

[DaBackpack]

I haven't read the entirety of EP8, but I read the solution and some spoilers about it.
Mulling over the conclusion,
I decided that it was both incredibly meaningful and wholly unsatisfying.

If you consider the themes of the entire series (especially the stuff about the catboxes) then it makes sense. Ryukishi didn't betray us. He didn't troll us, either. I'm almost certain that he DID have a solution when he designed the series. He just didn't tell us what it was.

He left the final solution to our own interpretations.

I know a lot of people (mystery fans) will be upset by this ending. I know that some people will not be as accepting of this meaningful ending as I am. Even so, you shouldn't be angry at Umineko. You should not forget all of the good things that happened over the whole series. Events like Rosa Musou in EP2 and Logic Battles in EP6 kept me coming back. Yes, I wanted a solution, but there is more to Umineko than just solving mysteries. I will not forget all of the fun I had speculating here and reading everyone else's theories. Sure, I've been called stupid and my theories useless, but I still thoroughly enjoyed the series as a whole.

It's what I call a more "open" ending instead of the typical mystery genre ending. Frankly, I think there should be more of these. I don't hate Umineko. I can't say I'm too pleased about not being given an answer to all of my questions, though. Still, that is not grounds to call EP8 "useless" or Umineko "a waste of time". In my opinion, anyway.

[Renall]

Look, you can have an ambiguous ending and not cock everything up in the process.

Take Blade Runner (the film, that is). I guess I'll spoil this in case...The Director's Cut adds some things in to raise the question of whether Deckard himself is a replicant (which was not really addressed but sort of possible in the original film cut). The ending doesn't answer this definitively and not even the people behind the movie agree (the producer and Harrison Ford think he was human, Ridley Scott thinks he was a replicant).

There are hints which suggest at the ambiguity, but the difference is that while they are mysterious, they clearly support a particular contention. Gaff is a mysterious character whose ability to predict the actions of both replicants and humans rises to an almost supernatural level. We're never told how he knows this (is he the one who programmed the false memories into replicants?), but we're given hints that he knows and that he wants to make sure other people know (Deckard's unicorn dream and Gaff's origami unicorn). It's plausible to believe he could know these things, and it supports one interpretation while still not being provable evidence that the other interpretation is false.

None of this changes the theme of the movie, which is very clear and not muddled at all (Roy Batty saving Deckard's life doesn't change meaning whether he's a replicant or not because that was the entire point).

Now you might say "yeah well none of the details change Umineko's theme either," and that's true, but the difference is whether the minor details might change something significantly or whether those minor details actually mattered for any particular reason.

It'd be like if Gaff just periodically showed up and said cryptic and wholly unrelated things that didn't help us speculate on Deckard's true nature. At the end of the film you'd be right to ask "So what was the deal with that dude in the trenchcoat?" And there wouldn't really be an answer. The origami animals and dialogue about Deckard's humanity make it clear that Gaff exists as a character and as a mystery in order to support this theme.

In contrast, you have a detail like "Why sign the message bottles 'Ushiromiya Maria?'" Thematically, it really doesn't matter what Yasu signed there; Ange didn't even believe it to begin with, so she never even suggested that Maria was actually the author. If she had used just about any other name it wouldn't make a difference. If she'd simply never signed the message bottle at all it wouldn't make a difference. Signing it Maria created a mystery for us that really ultimately didn't matter all that much. I can try to justify why it matters and interpret what that means, but it's ultimately all guesswork. It has no meaningful foundation in the work.

I don't have to justify why Gaff exists in the plot of Blade Runner, even if I can debate what the things he did meant.

[DaBackpack]

Look, you can have an ambiguous ending and not cock everything up in the process.

Take Blade Runner (the film, that is). I guess I'll spoil this in case...The Director's Cut adds some things in to raise the question of whether Deckard himself is a replicant (which was not really addressed but sort of possible in the original film cut). The ending doesn't answer this definitively and not even the people behind the movie agree (the producer and Harrison Ford think he was human, Ridley Scott thinks he was a replicant).

There are hints which suggest at the ambiguity, but the difference is that while they are mysterious, they clearly support a particular contention. Gaff is a mysterious character whose ability to predict the actions of both replicants and humans rises to an almost supernatural level. We're never told how he knows this (is he the one who programmed the false memories into replicants?), but we're given hints that he knows and that he wants to make sure other people know (Deckard's unicorn dream and Gaff's origami unicorn). It's plausible to believe he could know these things, and it supports one interpretation while still not being provable evidence that the other interpretation is false.

None of this changes the theme of the movie, which is very clear and not muddled at all (Roy Batty saving Deckard's life doesn't change meaning whether he's a replicant or not because that was the entire point).

Now you might say "yeah well none of the details change Umineko's theme either," and that's true, but the difference is whether the minor details might change something significantly or whether those minor details actually mattered for any particular reason.

It'd be like if Gaff just periodically showed up and said cryptic and wholly unrelated things that didn't help us speculate on Deckard's true nature. At the end of the film you'd be right to ask "So what was the deal with that dude in the trenchcoat?" And there wouldn't really be an answer. The origami animals and dialogue about Deckard's humanity make it clear that Gaff exists as a character and as a mystery in order to support this theme.

In contrast, you have a detail like "Why sign the message bottles 'Ushiromiya Maria?'" Thematically, it really doesn't matter what Yasu signed there; Ange didn't even believe it to begin with, so she never even suggested that Maria was actually the author. If she had used just about any other name it wouldn't make a difference. If she'd simply never signed the message bottle at all it wouldn't make a difference. Signing it Maria created a mystery for us that really ultimately didn't matter all that much. I can try to justify why it matters and interpret what that means, but it's ultimately all guesswork. It has no meaningful foundation in the work.

I don't have to justify why Gaff exists in the plot of Blade Runner, even if I can debate what the things he did meant.

You bring up a good point here. You mentioned Maria's signature on the letter bottles. There are some things that the author could have clarified and STILL have been able to have the same ending.

There are too many loose ends for my tastes. Things that aren't fully addressed. Maybe Ryukishi just forgot about them or deemed them unimportant. Things like Maria Ushiromiya's signature. Like I said, I haven't read EP8 yet, I've been going on what people have been saying.

I haven't decided for myself whether I like EP8's ending yet. I like the idea of it, the more I think of it. It does fit in with the themes of the series. But I cannot say I don't feel a little shafted from how this ended.

[Antera Caramichael]

Personally, there's a question that I read sometimes ago, about another mystery in Umineko unanswered:
Who is Battler's mother actually? Is it answered in Ep8?

[Yondaime]

Well, going by the the Battler sprite with the white hair near the end, makes me wonder if that's old age Battler, or Battler whose hair turned white cuz he's actually Kyrie's son :heh:

[Ayu-ayu]

You bring up a good point here. You mentioned Maria's signature on the letter bottles. There are some things that the author could have clarified and STILL have been able to have the same ending.

There are too many loose ends for my tastes. Things that aren't fully addressed. Maybe Ryukishi just forgot about them or deemed them unimportant. Things like Maria Ushiromiya's signature. Like I said, I haven't read EP8 yet, I've been going on what people have been saying.

I haven't decided for myself whether I like EP8's ending yet. I like the idea of it, the more I think of it. It does fit in with the themes of the series. But I cannot say I don't feel a little shafted from how this ended.

I don't see the problem with it being signed by Maria. In Battler's game in ep 8, Yasu-Beatrice states that the bottle messages were her attempt to emulate Agatha Christie in her game with Battler.

My assumption from this was that in Yasu-Beatrice's scenarios, she wanted to cast the message writer/narrator as her accomplice* Maria as a red herring and to share the fun, or perhaps to share some credit in the creation of her fantasy scenario. And as misdirection, it served its purpose, if not in the manner she intended.

That said, I'm not done reading Twilight just yet. I'm just at the entrance to Bern's Marvelous Mysterious Maze of Perplexing Purple Proclamations. :heh:

For my part, at the point where I'm at right now, I really feel like I'm getting a sense of what Ryuukishi07 is trying to accomplish, and it's actually rather moving, if so. If as R07 says, many mysteries do ignore the "heart", the true whydunnit, in favor of whodunnit/ howdunnit, then Umineko is a tale of the romance and fantasy that coyly lurks behind the surface of the mystery genre (perhaps behind the mystery creation process itself and/or the minds of the readers exploring the work), the magical realm of possibilities before the cat box is opened in those missing last ten pages. I really like the echoes of the events that reverberate throughout the eight arcs and the illustrative way concepts and rules are anthropomorphized or otherwise brought to life. It's not so much either a mystery or fantasy, but an illustration of appreciation for both. The "whydunnit" doesn't simply refer to the culprit, but the author of the mystery him/herself (whether in or out of the story).

I have thus far found the work incredibly engaging. I hope I'll continue to feel so after turning the final "page". :)

*Clarification: by accomplice, I don't mean as culprit, but as "apprentice witch and friend who helped inspire her". Sorry if my choice of words is confusing.

[DaBackpack]

I don't see the problem with it being signed by Maria. In Battler's game in ep 8, Yasu-Beatrice states that the bottle messages were her attempt to emulate Agatha Christie in her game with Battler.

My assumption from this was that in Yasu-Beatrice's scenarios, she wanted to cast the message writer/narrator as her accomplice Maria as a red herring and to share the fun, or perhaps to share some credit in the creation of her fantasy scenario. And as misdirection, it served its purpose, if not in the manner she intended.

That said, I'm not done reading Twilight just yet. I'm just at the entrance to Bern's Marvelous Mysterious Maze of Perplexing Purple Proclamations. :heh:

For my part, at the point where I'm at right now, I really feel like I'm getting a sense of what Ryuukishi07 is trying to accomplish, and it's actually rather moving, if so. If as R07 says, many mysteries do ignore the "heart", the true whydunnit, in favor of whodunnit/ howdunnit, then Umineko is a tale of the romance and fantasy that coyly lurks behind the surface of the mystery genre (perhaps behind the mystery creation process itself and/or the minds of the readers exploring the work), the magical realm of possibilities before the cat box is opened in those missing last ten pages. I really like the echoes of the events that reverberate throughout the eight arcs and the illustrative way concepts and rules are anthropomorphized or otherwise brought to life. It's not so much either a mystery or fantasy, but an illustration of appreciation for both. The "whydunnit" doesn't simply refer to the culprit, but the author of the mystery him/herself (whether in or out of the story).

I have thus far found the work incredibly engaging. I hope I'll continue to feel so after turning the final "page". :)

I figured it was a red herring from Yasu, especially when it was stated in EP7 that "And Then There Were None" directly influenced Yasu's behavior (this would inspire the message bottles). But I didn't know it was put in EP8, sorry about that :heh: Maybe it was a bad example.

I forgot to consider the "heart" of the mystery, anyway. And I certainly do like thinking of Umineko as an appreciation of the "whydunnit". It adds another layer of complexity to the whole. Thanks for that, man I can't wait until I'll be able to read EP8. :) Even if the ending does disappoint me.

[Sheep_]

Speaking of which.... after this, how many people here would be willing to read another WTC series?

Not sure at this point.

I don't know if I can handle the trolling, a ending like this, or just the over all mass theory and thought I put in to everything while reading.

[Circular Logic]

Out of interest, how many have actually read EP8 as opposed to the spoilers?

Just wondering whether it has an effect on people's impressions.

[crazysjd89]

While I am disappointed that a lot of things were not resolved, I simply get over that and look at Episode 8 as a 'tying everything up' arc, rather then a 'solution' arc. I do think that Eva's diary was a bit to much of a cock tease if he wasn't going to reveal it's contents, though.

But, I don't think it's really fair to say Ryukishi doesn't have an answer. I think Episode 7, for one, proves he does have an answer in mind. And, if he didn't have an answer, there would likely be a lot of problems with the numerous amounts of red text that have been said throughout the series.

To use the poker example used earlier, the red text is like the person who refused to show his hand going "I'll show you three or four of my cards". If he doesn't actually have that hand he claims, then showing three cards could be a problem for him. But if he shows those three cards, and they make up the hand that he claims, then it's more likely that he actually does have the hand. Though it is certainly possible that he doesn't, I doubt he would show any of his hand if he didn't.

If Ryukishi were to, in the future, release all the answers, I think Episode 8 might not be as hated by some people as it was (I can't say 'everyone', of course.) That's how I look at it. I read through Episode 8 with my own ideas on what the answer was, and while I was disappointed that there was no confirmation or denial, instead of taking it as 'there is no answer', I decided that for me, my answer would be the 'truth', at least until he reveals otherwise.

I can fully understand why people are disappointed in the ending and why they hate Episode 8, but I just thought I would state this is why I don't hate it when I'm in a similar position. Far from hating it, it was probably my second or third favorite Episode.


EDIT: To answer Circular's question, I read it.

[Will Wright]

And, if he didn't have an answer, there would likely be a lot of problems with the numerous amounts of red text that have been said throughout the series.

That's not entirely true. See that's the beauty of bluffing. It's possible for him to contradict himself as much as he wants and outright violate his red because he'll tell the reader "rest assured, I have a solution" and then he'll watch the reader come up with a good theory to go around his outrageous scenario and run with it.

To use the poker example used earlier, the red text is like the person who refused to show his hand going "I'll show you three or four of my cards". If he doesn't actually have that hand he claims, then showing three cards could be a problem for him. But if he shows those three cards, and they make up the hand that he claims, then it's more likely that he actually does have the hand. Though it is certainly possible that he doesn't, I doubt he would show any of his hand if he didn't.

The problem with that analogy is that if we assume he is just making crap up as he goes, then his red text means nothing.

For example, say he wrote the following:

2+2=5.

I do not believe that would prove he knew how the hell that could possibly be true. He could very well be just bluffing and saying "I'll tell you when you get the right answer" knowing full well that there isn't a right answer.

He could then offer a few hints such as "banana plus wireless modem equals dragon" and we'd be trying to understand just what the hell he meant. I'm clearly exaggerating with this example, but you get what I mean.

I don't think he just threw reds randomly though. That would be stupid to assume. He had some vague idea of how to get around red(Shkanon) but he never gave too much thought about how that connected with the game itself.

He had the bare basics of the mystery ready, but he couldn't come up with a way to put it all together without making it seem like bullshit.

[witchfan]

Mind, Orwell wasn't particularly well-versed in maths, or at least not very nitpicky. There are plenty enough algebraic structures that support the statement that 2+2=5. ;)

[Used Can]

You know what'd have been an amazing way to end this episode? This line would have been priceless:

We see Tōya finishing his final novel. The whole thing is done. However, despite each novel having a title, the overall story doesn't have a name. So:

Ikuko: What the heck do you call this sort of story?
Tōya: I call it "The Aristocrats".

- Roll final credits -

[crazysjd89]

That's not entirely true. See that's the beauty of bluffing. It's possible for him to contradict himself as much as he wants and outright violate his red because he'll tell the reader "rest assured, I have a solution" and then he'll watch the reader come up with a good theory to go around his outrageous scenario and run with it.

I should have said what I meant more clearly:

The fact that people can come up with concise answers, proves he at least had a basic idea of his solution. If he was just saying red with no idea what the solution actually was, it'd be a lot less likely that people would come up with an answer that can actually fit with all the red text.

I believe we had a debate before, and we used a puzzle comparison. To use that comparison again: We once again have a puzzle that is missing 20 or 30 pieces. The red text, in this example, are the missing pieces, but the pictures on the front are taken off. If people couldn't fit the missing pieces in, then it would be natural to assume that the pieces are part of a different puzzle and it isn't solvable and the person who gave you the missing pieces doesn't actually know where those pieces came from. But if the puzzle is solved, then it means, obviously, it is solvable, and that the person who gave the puzzle pieces must have known those pieces came from this puzzle.



The problem with that analogy is that if we assume he is just making crap up as he goes, then his red text means nothing.

For example, say he wrote the following:

2+2=5.

I do not believe that would prove he knew how the hell that could possibly be true. He could very well be just bluffing and saying "I'll tell you when you get the right answer" knowing full well that there isn't a right answer.

He could then offer a few hints such as "banana plus wireless modem equals dragon" and we'd be trying to understand just what the hell he meant. I'm clearly exaggerating with this example, but you get what I mean.

I don't think he just threw reds randomly though. That would be stupid to assume. He had some vague idea of how to get around red(Shkanon) but he never gave too much thought about how that connected with the game itself.

He had the bare basics of the mystery ready, but he couldn't come up with a way to put it all together without making it seem like bullshit.


But, the thing is, as I said above, there are many people who came up with how 2+2=5.

However, you might be right that he didn't have a complete solution, but I think he had more then just a bare basic idea, at least. This is because, the more red that is given, the harder it becomes to, by chance, get an answer, even with a bare basic idea, eventually there would end up being some kind of impossible murder.

Let's say I were to make any random closed room, with no idea what the solution is. At first, it would be easy. There are several possible ways to get around it no matter what red I say. So I might say things like The door is locked and That is the only key to this room.

But, the more red I use, the less likely it'll be that there will be an actual solution.

[Will Wright]

I should have said what I meant more clearly:

The fact that people can come up with concise answers, proves he at least had a basic idea of his solution. If he was just saying red with no idea what the solution actually was, it'd be a lot less likely that people would come up with an answer that can actually fit with all the red text.

I believe we had a debate before, and we used a puzzle comparison. To use that comparison again: We once again have a puzzle that is missing 20 or 30 pieces. The red text, in this example, are the missing pieces, but the pictures on the front are taken off. If people couldn't fit the missing pieces in, then it would be natural to assume that the pieces are part of a different puzzle and it isn't solvable and the person who gave you the missing pieces doesn't actually know where those pieces came from. But if the puzzle is solved, then it means, obviously, it is solvable, and that the person who gave the puzzle pieces must have known those pieces came from this puzzle.


Indeed we had this very same debate before, and I said that I would wait for the game to be concluded until I decided whether the pieces missing were important or not.

What I think of the series now is that it isn't missing just 20 or 30 pieces, but at least 50 of them. You are right in that it's hard for people to fit in those missing pieces if the puzzle does not have a defined final form.

However, say that the puzzle is more incomplete than complete. In that case, one can fit any solution in there. In fact, that person would be doing the writer's work for him. That's what I think Umineko is in the end.


But, the thing is, as I said above, there are many people who came up with how 2+2=5.

However, you might be right that he didn't have a complete solution, but I think he had more then just a bare basic idea, at least. This is because, the more red that is given, the harder it becomes to, by chance, get an answer, even with a bare basic idea, eventually there would end up being some kind of impossible murder.

Let's say I were to make any random closed room, with no idea what the solution is. At first, it would be easy. There are several possible ways to get around it no matter what red I say. So I might say things like The door is locked and That is the only key to this room.

But, the more red I use, the less likely it'll be that there will be an actual solution.
Many people came up with how 2+2=5. But what if Ryuukishi wasn't one of those people?

I think that we'll never know how much he had planned in advance and how much he had no answer to.

I think he had a very general idea for them. For example, Eva's locked room in the first game. The solution is that "it wasn't locked" basically. A particularly insane fan might argue that the culprit could have used a screwdriver to take apart the door without ever damaging it or "opening" it.

That's a bad example, but you see what I mean. I think he had basic "hows" ready, but never really had a "who," as he had the excuse of "it's fiction" ready in case one of his fans couldn't come up with a good enough who.

I see what you mean though. Me calling his bluff means that I think he had some serious guts to write a story like that. But I personally think he did it, because he knew full well(from Higurashi) that his fanbase would allow that little gambit to succeed.

[Used Can]

However, say that the puzzle is more incomplete than complete. In that case, one can fit any solution in there. In fact, that person would be doing the writer's work for him. That's what I think Umineko is in the end.
Sounds as if R07 is Featherine and we're Bern... Wait... OH SHI-

[DaBackpack]

You know what'd have been an amazing way to end this episode? This line would have been priceless:

We see Tōya finishing his final novel. The whole thing is done. However, despite each novel having a title, the overall story doesn't have a name. So:

Ikuko: What the heck do you call this sort of story?
Tōya: I call it "The Aristocrats".

- Roll final credits -

Don't worry, I got it XD
Yes, I wouldn't put it past Touya.

[Used Can]

Don't worry, I got it XD
Yes, I wouldn't put it past Touya.
Thanks, I love you.
I really expected anyone to get this one.

[Will Wright]

You know what'd have been an amazing way to end this episode? This line would have been priceless:

We see Tōya finishing his final novel. The whole thing is done. However, despite each novel having a title, the overall story doesn't have a name. So:

Ikuko: What the heck do you call this sort of story?
Tōya: I call it "The Aristocrats".

- Roll final credits -

It would be a great ending indeed!

Sounds as if R07 is Featherine and we're Bern... Wait... OH SHI-

The fact you couldn't finish your cursing leads me to the inevitable conclusion that Umineko's true culprit is candlejack. I mean, it explains ev

[LyricalAura]

[Color=Red]Knox's 5th, it is forbidden for the culprit to be anyone not mentioned in the early part of the story! So long as Candlejack wasn't introduced, you ca

[crazysjd89]

Clearly you guys don't know what you're talking about, since Episode 8 told us who the culprit is.

If you cheat and get more then 17 medals, you get Tomitake as a prize. This means that Tomitake is a cheater. This also means he can ignore all red text, Knox, and Van Dine.

My logic is flawless!

[Tyabann]

You know what'd have been an amazing way to end this episode? This line would have been priceless:

We see Tōya finishing his final novel. The whole thing is done. However, despite each novel having a title, the overall story doesn't have a name. So:

Ikuko: What the heck do you call this sort of story?
Tōya: I call it "The Aristocrats".

- Roll final credits -

I think it's sad that the Japanese have probably never heard of that joke.

[Dr. Casey]

Having the mystery part naturally becoming some delusional fantasy isn't something new by Ryukishi07. Higurashi has already proven that.

Not necessarily a bad thing tho.

What's a delusional fantasy?

[Rias]

What's a delusional fantasy?

Fantasy is fantasy. Delusional is when someone denies certain truth or only believes otherwise. Take ep4 Maria for example.

While it's true that "happiness" is subjective, that it's up to the person to decide if they are truly happy or not, child abuse is child abuse. Sure, it's arguable if Rosa loved Maria or not, but saying that it never happened or what not, is just a delusion on your own part.

[Baru]

Without any spoilers, could anyone tell me how many endings there are for EP8? And if there are any variations of some endings?

[LyricalAura]

There are two main endings, and some extra scenes you can get along the way if you make certain choices.

[immblueversion]

There are two main endings, and some extra scenes you can get along the way if you make certain choices.

Say, do these "certain choices" of which you speak add extra scenes to one or both of the endings?

[LyricalAura]

Say, do these "certain choices" of which you speak add extra scenes to one or both of the endings?

Not that I'm aware of, but I haven't really looked at the code yet.

[Mcjon01]

Say, do these "certain choices" of which you speak add extra scenes to one or both of the endings?

How you do on the quiz games changes the ending of the game.

It's only one or two completely inconsequential words, but hey, a change is a change, right? :D

[Pikumin]

I don't suppose this game is the "Rokkenjima Prime" that everyone's been speculating about, is it? :uhoh:

[MeoTwister5]

I don't suppose this game is the "Rokkenjima Prime" that everyone's been speculating about, is it? :uhoh:

Depends if you think this is the "absolute truth" or yet one of the other many possibilities.

[MeoTwister5]

The Battle for Survival

Ange is on the run. What is a little girl to do? Who will save her?

Rokkenjima
- Ange is screaming and running to the guesthouse looking for her brother. Since she hasn't seen their bodies, she thinks they're still alive. She runs into the rain looking for them.
- She hears who she thinks is Battler beyond a fence. She heads for the toolshed and finds them. She calls to them but they can't seem to hear or see her. It's like the difference between the TV and the viewer.
- Battler is raging on wtf is happening. Maria calls this a witch's act. George is asking for calm. They have to figure out what is going on.
- George says they don't know who is doing this on the island. Battler says that none of them really know if those people died. If they are the only ones on the island, then maybe someone is faking death. George presumes that there are at least 2 killers.
- They presume that Nanjo's autopsies would be correct. They remember the bodies he checked. Battler insinuates that George is suspecting that their parents might be part of the plot. Maria claims her mother is dead, so the criminal must be one of the other four. She's being creepy again and Battler tells her to stfu.
- Maria questions Battler who checked his parents. Battler says they should be dead as they were covered in blood. She thinks he's lying. Maria insists that he is lying and that his parents are alive and killed. She repeats the theory of the metaworld solution. Maria flat out accuses him of being an accomplice.
- George tells them to stop it. Maria calls this sheepin wolves' clothing, a family of killers. Battler denies everything and gets angry.
- KYRIE AND RUDOLPH APPEAR AND CONFRONT THEM.
- George and Maria are shocked. They now know the truth.
- Ange witnesses this with utter disbelief. Battler goes to his parents, who raise guns at Maria and George. They shoot Maria and George in the head.
- Ange is aghast. Battler, Kyrie and Rudolph laugh and gloat. Ange feels like puking. She tries to run away from the horrid laughter of her family. Goats appear around her. The goats surround her and taunt her with accusations that her family are the killers in an effort to break her.
- The narrator explains the Eva killer theory and why the goats aren't talking about it. It assumed as the truth, but now she is forced to question it. Narrator postulates that Ange was purposely not brought to the council to spare her involvement in this conspiracy. Narrator explains future speculations by the public of what Battler's family is or were, about criminal syndicates and notorious business practices. Narrator presents how the public adopts the Battler's Family conspiracy instead of the Eva theory.
- Ange suddenly sees a flash of white distorting the goats. She starts to
see the goats as forms similar to the classmates who bullied her. They same the same thing as the first goats and mock her (like in Ep4). The goats gossip about her and her family. The mockery pushes Ange down.
- All of a sudden, a slash comes out of nowhere and cuts the goats. A voice calls to Ange to follow. It looked like the cat. She runs after the cat as the goats go after her. She is cautious but she has no choice but to run. They run and run and are eventually cornered.
- A goat approaches, opens it's grotesque mouth and tries to go after Ange while chanting the accusations of the Battler Family Conspiracy.
- A BLUE SWORD APPEARS AND GUTS THE GOAT. In blue, the figure says that it is possible to create a theory that excludes Battler's family. In blue the goats reply that it is impossible for the crime to be done by anyone other than Battler's family.
- A RED SWORD APPEARS AND GUTS MORE GOATS. In red it says that it is possible to construct a theory that does not involve Battler's family. In blue it adds that it is possible to have the George family as killers theory.
- THE RED AND BLUE OF THE UNKNOWN INTRUDER SLASH DOWN THE GOATS. The goats replyin blue that the George Family killer theory is impossible. It is impossible for George to kill Shannon. Itis impossible for him to be the criminal.
- The intruder replies in red that it is possible (for George Family). It is listed as the rule that the criminals are murderers. However, it is not limited to just one person. George could have been a criminal outside the island and, even if not guilty of murder on the island, doesn't need to kill anyone on the island to be a criminal. (WTF?)
- The goats get slashed around. Ange begins to realize she has a guardian who is battling the goats with red and blue.
- She looks up and sees the figure. ERIKA IS FIGHTING THE GOATS WITH A RED AND BLUE SCYTHE.

Yes. "She" is alive. If in case you don't believe me...

http://meotwister5.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/erika.jpg

Any logic is possible for Erika Furudo.

- Erika: it is possible to construct a theory that does not involve Battler's family.
- Erika: it is possible (for George Family). It is listed as the rule that the criminals are murderers. However, it is not limited to just one person. George could have been a criminal outside the island and, even if not guilty of murder on the island, doesn't need to kill anyone on the island to be a criminal.

- Erika: it is possible to create a theory that excludes Battler's family.
- Goats: it is impossible for the crime to be done by anyone other than Battler's family.
- Erika: it is possible to have the George family as killers theory.
- Goats: the George Family killer theory is impossible. It is impossible for George to kill Shannon. It is impossible for him to be the criminal.

And... yeah I'll stop with a cliffhanger for today. Had some extra work to do so no time for translations. Moved the post-murder game segment to a new page.

I can say that the time for epic badassery is about to start. But that's for tomorrow. Sorry.:(

[Ayu-ayu]

Fourth Murder Investigation



- Nanjo: examined the dead body and confirmed that she is dead.
- Gohda: they do not all have alibis.
- Jessica: it is impossible for George to kill Shannon.
- Battler: it is possible for everyone else to kill Shannon except for
George.
- Gohda: Shannon's master key was destroyed.



Catching up gradually...I noticed you missed two Purple Truths at the start of the Fourth Twilight:


- Jessica: I went out with all the members and looked for Shannon
- George: I must recognize the fact that she (Shannon) has died….


These both came before Nanjo's proclamation. :) No idea if that's important or not having only just finished reading all the purple text and accompanying narration. Yeah, I'm slow, but I want to try to read everything carefully...

[MeoTwister5]

Yeah went back to check my save during the murder game and I did missed those two. Fixed in my blog.

Edit - Could the readers of the summaries, like, please not link the translations on my blog to just anywhere? I'm getting a metric f-ton of spam comments ranging from the usual bizarre porn links to someone wanting to sell me a dog. I appreciate the support, but please if you wanna link, link in a place where spambots aren't the majority population. Thank you.

[Will Wright]

For my part, at the point where I'm at right now, I really feel like I'm getting a sense of what Ryuukishi07 is trying to accomplish, and it's actually rather moving, if so. If as R07 says, many mysteries do ignore the "heart", the true whydunnit, in favor of whodunnit/ howdunnit,

I just have to point out that Ryuukishi basically made that up. The Golden Age has more heart than any other genre, even romance. Sure you can find a few novels that don't present motive, but exceptions do not the rule make.

In order to solve Death on the Nile, you need to understand the culprit's heart. There is no exaggeration in this. In fact, you could go ahead and say that at least 80% of all Miss Marple stories require the reader to understand the culprit's motive in order to understand who is the culprit.

Moreover, I can say that You need to understand the detective's heart to understand the case.

Ryuukishi loves to paint the mystery genre as heartless when it is anything but. Even Van Dine's 'heartless' novels were full and complex narratives, where the heart was important.

There are times when the whydunit is ignored, but the howdunit and the whodunit is ignored just as often.

"I don't know how you did it," says the detective, "but you did it. I'm sure of it."

A common scene in mystery fiction. The who and the why are clear. It's the how that is the problem.

It's also very common to see someone being shot at his own house. It is not a matter of how, but who and why.

Ryuukishi's portrayal of the mystery genre is quite frankly, very misinformed. He either didn't make his research, which is unlikely given how he makes references to a few mystery novels here and there, or he just didn't research the genre deeply enough.

Sure, the story isn't a mystery. But it talks about mysteries a lot. And when it does, Ryuukishi shows his ignorance on the subject.

Do you know how a fencer can't enjoy a sword fighting scene in a movie because he knows how foolish and wrong they are? It's the same thing here with mystery fans.

Forgive me for this rant, but this is just something that always bothered me about the series, and episode 8 itself was pretty bad about it. Ryuukishi's message in the end about heart just didn't sit right with me.

All about Ange, the truth you choose to find and etc...it felt rather lacking to me.

[Ayu-ayu]

Do you know how a fencer can't enjoy a sword fighting scene in a movie because he knows how foolish and wrong they are? It's the same thing here with mystery fans.

Forgive me for this rant, but this is just something that always bothered me about the series, and episode 8 itself was pretty bad about it. Ryuukishi's message in the end about heart just didn't sit right with me.

All about Ange, the truth you choose to find and etc...it felt rather lacking to me.

Personally, this seems a fair enough complaint from a well-read mystery fan like Will. As a casual mystery fan, it's why I qualified that sentiment with an "If". However, I'll stand by my interpretation from the rest of the paragraph which was omitted in this critique:

...then Umineko is a tale of the romance and fantasy that coyly lurks behind the surface of the mystery genre (perhaps behind the mystery creation process itself and/or the minds of the readers exploring the work), the magical realm of possibilities before the cat box is opened in those missing last ten pages. I really like the echoes of the events that reverberate throughout the eight arcs and the illustrative way concepts and rules are anthropomorphized or otherwise brought to life. It's not so much either a mystery or fantasy, but an illustration of appreciation for both. The "whydunnit" doesn't simply refer to the culprit, but the author of the mystery him/herself (whether in or out of the story).


That is to say, Umineko is more about the "heart" in terms of appreciating both the creation and interpretation of mysteries. It's not about why the culprit "dunnit" so much as why the writer and reader bother with the "dunnits" in the first place. Again, that's just my personal takeaway so far as I reach the midpoint (I think) of the arc. I'm not trying to say that mysteries are heartless and R07 has bested them at that game, but rather that he is doing a good job of showing the path to where that heart can be found to those of us who didn't know to look in the first place.

[milkypink]

So I just finished.
It took me around four days, both because of the language difficulty and the sheer level of emotion built into this Episode.

More than the other 7, I felt like 8 was truly endless. So many sections with such different moods... (I started wondering if there really WAS an ending, or if I'd be doomed to read this Episode for all eternity :uhoh: )

I was skeptical about the whole "choices" thing, but I think he pulled it off well... if slightly confusing. I still don't know if choosing a different cake slice than I did affects anything... I tried about five others without any immediate changes so I just gave up and went with my first choice (a la Ange XD)

I managed pretty well with most of the riddles (I even realized the atomic number one, despite my poor knowledge of Chemistry. I didn't know the answer, but I knew how it was derived... :heh: ) There were a couple that, even after reading the explanations I had no idea how they got there. (And there was at least one I didn't even bother trying to read I was so burnt out at the time x__x)

I chose the Magic ending... I'm a little afraid to choose Trick/Slight of Hand, to be perfectly honest :heh: I'll stick with my Magic ending for now~

For a while, I was wondering how the diary could possibly be observed if Ryuukishi claimed to not spoonfeed the answers... but as expected, there were no hard fact answers in this Episode (aside from perhaps some minor background facts in the Quiz Party after answering correctly, but nothing earth shattering) .

Am I satisfied with the end?
For the most part, I think so.
It's bittersweet, certainly, and as much as I'd love a completely happy ending (oh you don't know how excited I was with that boat scene for a while...) ... it wasn't realistic. Ryuukishi didn't betray the reality he'd constructed (much, anyway) and he didn't betray his readers, either.

But, that's just my take.
Time to read the previous pages of this thread...

[AuraTwilight]

The intruder replies in red that it is possible (for George Family). It is listed as the rule that the criminals are murderers. However, it is not limited to just one person. George could have been a criminal outside the island and, even if not guilty of murder on the island, doesn't need to kill anyone on the island to be a criminal. (WTF?)

This is why Erika is awesome.

[Biichama]

Speaking of which.... after this, how many people here would be willing to read another WTC series?

Heck yes. Though having to deal with the wait between episodes will drive me bonkers. It drove me bonkers enough this time and I only got into WTC this summer!

[erneiz_hyde]

just finished ep.8

the first thing I want to say is:
Good luck translating this, witch hunt! You guys seriously need it! B-)

personal review:

so, we get to have some detective works with Bern's game and I spent one whole day to solve it. The story in Bern's game was stated as mere wild speculation from the internet discussion from 1998 after they get bored with the Eva-culprit theory. Still, I felt kinda trolled because I expected to find the true culprit here.

R07 completely sealed the truth with this game and only focused on the wrappings of the story. I say I am disappointed because the truth of the two days are still not clear.

But! I get to see epic scenes! All character were going all-out!
Musou Rosa~! So fast that you see yourself dead multiple times before you know it!
Krauss Brofist~! The fist that will send you to the moon!
RoundGeorge Kick~! pun intended!
Hormone Fist Jessica~!
Dream Team Will+Dlanor~!
And....

LambdaDelta! If I ever participate in the fave chara vote, I will certainly make sure you get to at least big 5 just as you wished! I accidentally became your fan now! Love youuuuu~!

Edit: whhoooops, I can't believe I missed this. I was a serious Erika bitch-hater, but after this, I think she's Okay! -_-b

And the last kiss with Beato and Battler was seriously itchy I imagined an H-scene in that spot lol. oh, and don't get me going on where my mind went with Bern and Lamda's conversation when they battle it out :p

Above all, I think I get what this story tried to convey. It helped a bit if one sees umineko not as a whole, but in part. Like, ep.1-4 as the blue mystery part, then ep 5-7 was the red fantasy part, and ep.8 is the golden truth part, and that ultimately, what's important is what you believe. sure, it made it half-assed in every genre and sounds much like political or occult BS, but even Will said:
"Ultimately even mystery is entertainment. It's up to the reader to enjoy them or not."

So I re-evaluated my understandings of this story and decided that I am enjoying it. One might even say that this could be R07's bitchslap.

"This is entertainment. If you can't accept it, then don't go and shove that disappointment to others. Suck it up."

something like that? though that's just me.

/personal review end.

[erneiz_hyde]

In fact, that person would be doing the writer's work for him. That's what I think Umineko is in the end.


I wouldn't go that far, though I agree that the fanbase must have had something to do with how the story folded out.

Instead of us doing his work for him, how about saying "he and us together worked for our fanbase"?

[eXpERieNCeD]

Featherine is probably the most -broken- witch ever.
You learn in Episode 8 that she is one of those of the Creator category.

You will understand once you see how she basically turn Lambda into nothing, and I -mean it-.


What do you mean about turning Lamda into nothing... do you mean a colorful verbal battle against each other? or a magic battle like what happened to Virgilia and Beato? or do you mean her cruelty is nothing compared to Lamda?

[Klashikari]

Magic Battle, although it was beyond one sided.

[erneiz_hyde]

aah Featherine.

Her power reminded me of Remilia from Touhou, or perhaps Keine, or perhaps even the combination of both. That's real hax, just like R07.

Also, anyone know Lambda's リヴァイアサン reference? I though it was Leviathan but Levi was written with レ. Then I kinda remembered Laevateinn staff from Touhou (partly because LD somehow looked like Flandre) but that doesn't sound right. Kinda like there's "sun" at the back because how it worked as a exploding device. Refire Sun?

[Klashikari]

リヴァイアサン is the katakana transliteration of the english reading of Leviathan, as suggested by the Japanese Wikipedia.
Probably, Ryukishi was actually trying to discern the demon with the actual legendary sea dragon.

[MeoTwister5]

Wow it took me an entire fucking hour to discover that I posted this in the wrong thread!

Just one summary update for today. Nothing really exciting but at least one big revelation.

Ange and Eva-Beatrice vs. Goats
- Erika begins goat massacre. She introduces herself as Furudo Erika, detective. The goats back off in fear. She demands that one of the goats face her.
- Red webs appear and surround the area. Eva-Beatrice appears to challenge those who deny her as the criminal. Eva lays claim to being the criminal and owner of the gold. She lays claim to the catbox.
- With a wave of her wand she crushes the goats into a meat pie. She and Erika exchange greetings.
- Eva-Beatrice says she is here to help Ange because she thinks of her as daughter. She says she will alwys be on Ange's side. Eva-Beatrice leaves.
- Erika explains her status as the witch of truth. Ange remembers how she wanted to know the truth, and how maybe Erika can give this to her. Erika says they are both truth seekers. Ange asks for information.
- Erika asks why Ange is so willing to ask for the truth and willing to believe her. Ange tells Erika what Battler has shown in this game. She says she doesn't believe what Battler showed her. Erika tells her of the need to see through the lies and deceit by understanding.
- Ange tries to figure out why Battler would show this. Ange rages why she is the only one Battler won't show the truth to.
- Erika says it is best to reach the truth yourself. Ange rages at why they won't seem to let her get it.
- Ange feels transported back to the skyscraper where she first met Bern. Bern tells her if she is capable of reaching this truth. She says that sometimes the truth you finally get might do something different to you than you initially believed. She says Ange doesn't have the right to request the truth. She begins to ask herself if she really possesses the resolution to accept the truth, no matter what it may be.
- She begins to feel the contradiction, that perhaps by asking for the truth there is still no one who will come back alive. Ange again wonders if she is willing to accept it. Bern asks if she is resolved to accept it. Bern sees the resolve in her eyes.
- Bern repeats how Ange is the Beatrice of 1998 and Bern is her guardian. Ange is the witch of truth similar to Erika. Ange begins to realize that she rejects the truth while at the same time demanding it.
- Ange toys with the idea of admitting that indeed, her family is dead. Bern says she will support Ange's quest for truth. They will discuss it over tea.

MetaWorld Hall
- Battler and Beato cheer for a wonderful game that Bern made. Zepar and Furfur put up the game board for the other people to see. Everyone observes and comments. The attendees discuss the game amongst themselves. Bern asks for some good tea.
- Bern praises Beato who takes it like sarcasm. Battler tells Bern it was interesting to play that game. He says it would be nice to play another game with her in the future, albeit a more challenging one.
- Bern says she begins to understand the difference between her and Beato, regarding the idea of an eternal endless game. An endless game is endless torture. She remembers a bit of her past.
- Battler tries to comprehend what she says and asks if this brings back memories of a previous experience. Bern says she a different person from what she was before.
- Battler says they are sort of friends now, as competitors. They became friends in the middle of an opposing struggle between them as players. They decide to have some plum tea. Battler considered the game a fair game.
- Bern giggles and says that her game is not yet over. She puts down her tea. Battler looks confused.

Featherine's Study
- Ange wakes up to Bern who is pouring tea. Bern calls on Featherine. They are in her study. Bern says this is where she will look for her truth apart from Battler's presentation. Ange shows Featherine the key Battler gave her and asks what it is really for.
- Featherine asks Bern to explain. She doesn't want to. She says the key is the embodiment of the one final decision to make regarding the story and its acceptance. It will open the door to what she has chosen. Battler gave Ange the freedom to make her choice.
- Ange remembers the suffering she experienced after the incident that claimed the lives of everyone. Every time she asks Battler about it he refuses to answer her directly. Bern agrees that Battler is being evasive.
- Featherine and Bern explain how Battler was a player before and Beato was the GM, and how both fought each other to reach the truth. Ange says she is the player and Battler the GM now.
- Featherine suggests that Ange may have been playing without understanding anything. Bern says Battler is sly to conceal this from his sister. Ange realizes she was being passive all this time, relying solely on Battler, without thinking for herself. Battler's intention was for her to figure it out herself, and use that key to do this.
- She now thinks she understands Battler's goal. The key she believes now was meant by Battler for her to open the door against the deception she is shown. The key will open the truth within herself. Featherine says she will show her now. Ange's sight begins to distort.

1998
- Ange waks up in Hachijou's sofa, who now just arrives. She thinks that Featherine and Hachijou are one and the same. Ange calls her Featherine, and Amakusa is confused.
- Hachijou shows her a book with a keyhole. The book is currently locked. Eva's name is inscribed on the cover. Amakusa thinks this is Eva's secret diary. Hachijou says this is the diary Eva hid in her hospital room before she died. Narrator explains how this book was found but was locked, and how witch hunters are unable to open it without destroying the pages. Amakusa asks if it is possible to remove the hinges.
- Ange wonders if this might contain Eva's account of the events on the island. Hachijou says no one knows where the key is. Ange looks for the key Battler gave her and begins to freak that it isn't around her neck. She then realizes that she doesn't have the key in the human world.

Featherine's Study
- Ange shifts back to the metaworld. Here, however, the diary is gone. Ange thinks Battler is hiding the book from her. Bern and Featherine suggest that perhaps Battler isn't actually hiding the book from her. Bern asks Ange to remember the rule that states that all the clues must be accessible. They ask her to remember if she's seen it before.
- Ange recalls the seeing a locked book at the chapel when Battler gave her the key. Bern says that perhaps it contains the truth they seek.
- In red Featherine states that Eva's diary contains the "One Truth". It records the truth of Rokenjima from October 4 and 5, 1986.

- Featherine: Eva's diary contains the "One Truth". It records the truth of Rokenjima from October 4 and 5, 1986.

More to follow tomorrow.

[musouka]

There are times when the whydunit is ignored, but the howdunit and the whodunit is ignored just as often.

"I don't know how you did it," says the detective, "but you did it. I'm sure of it."

A common scene in mystery fiction. The who and the why are clear. It's the how that is the problem.

This is not what Ryukishi means by "heart". It's not about using the why to discover the criminal, it's about putting forth the idea that someone's reasons for doing something can be just as important and interesting as the things they do.

I mean, come on here. Let's not play coy. Anyone that's read any amount of mystery novels knows that stories like Umineko are far and few in between, especially when it comes to Golden Age mysteries.

Most mystery novels are not set up for you to care about the cast in any meaningful way. Our sympathies are supposed to lie with the detective, and he's an outside force. (That's why Erika is an interesting deconstruction, because it shows that the intrusion of such a larger than life, obnoxious know-it-all is far more likely to be resented by the people to whom the situation actually pertains.)

Likewise, the "why" is usually a tacked on after-thought to explain why the criminal went to the elaborate contortions that s/he did to commit the crime. It, like the crime itself, is there mostly so the pieces fall into place and we're satisfied with how things turned out. Readers won't accept someone who plots elaborate crimes for no reason, but mysteries rarely delve deep into the psyche of the criminal either.

In fact, I'd say Umineko is more like a mystery turned inside-out, which is why I enjoy it so much.

Do you know how a fencer can't enjoy a sword fighting scene in a movie because he knows how foolish and wrong they are? It's the same thing here with mystery fans.

I wouldn't speak for all mystery fans. I love mysteries (and would actually like to write them, though mine are also rather non-traditional in a lot of aspects) and I don't regret the time I spent with Umineko in the slightest.

Really, I think all the complaints are more like this. Ryukishi invited us all to dinner and mentioned that the main dish would be meat. Some fans jumped to the conclusion that this meant Ryukishi was going to serve us filet mignon, but when we got there, we found out that it was pot roast instead. Very nicely cooked, but pot roast. You can either keep crying about how Ryukishi tricked you into thinking it was filet mignon and talk about how terrible the dinner is, or you can accept the nice pot roast and critique the work based on what it actually is. (And don't get me wrong--I didn't exactly want pot roast either. I wanted stew. But it's not a bad pot roast.)

[Will Wright]

This is not what Ryukishi means by "heart". It's not about using the why to discover the criminal, it's about putting forth the idea that someone's reasons for doing something can be just as important and interesting as the things they do.

I mean, come on here. Let's not play coy. Anyone that's read any amount of mystery novels knows that stories like Umineko are far and few in between, especially when it comes to Golden Age mysteries.

Most mystery novels are not set up for you to care about the cast in any meaningful way. Our sympathies are supposed to lie with the detective, and he's an outside force. (That's why Erika is an interesting deconstruction, because it shows that the intrusion of such a larger than life, obnoxious know-it-all is far more likely to be resented by the people to whom the situation actually pertains.)

Likewise, the "why" is usually a tacked on after-thought to explain why the criminal went to the elaborate contortions that s/he did to commit the crime. It, like the crime itself, is there mostly so the pieces fall into place and we're satisfied with how things turned out. Readers won't accept someone who plots elaborate crimes for no reason, but mysteries rarely delve deep into the psyche of the criminal either.

In fact, I'd say Umineko is more like a mystery turned inside-out, which is why I enjoy it so much.


I wouldn't say that at all. I think that it's harder to find a Christie novel where the murderer is a jerk than one where the murderer is sympathetic. The why isn't "tacked on" in stories at all.

There are stories where the why is just sort of 'there' and you can just ignore it, but the same goes to the who and the how.

For example, again using Death on the Nile as an example(though you could make a case for any non-impossible-crime Christie novel) the motive is not only there, it's what you need to solve the crime. Unless you understand exactly why the murderer became who he/she is, you can't solve it.

Christie's novels(Miss Marple comes to mind) always focused on the why, sometimes to a fault. To claim that there are few mysteries that care about the motive is nonsense.

For example, Van Dine often ignored the who to focus on the how. Of course there are no novels like Umineko who go on and on about the characters, since even one Umineko novel is already longer than most mystery novels.

Let's be frank, to expect the same degree of characterization in a series that has 8 novels and a single novel is just silly. There isn't enough room for that much development.

And again, the who and the how were ignored just as often.

Crooked House. The how is outright explained, the only question is who. The key to finding out the who is by finding the why. The motive is not just tacked on like Ryuukishi says. That's a fallacy.


I wouldn't speak for all mystery fans. I love mysteries (and would actually like to write them, though mine are also rather non-traditional in a lot of aspects) and I don't regret the time I spent with Umineko in the slightest.


And I'm fairly sure there are fencers who can watch swordfights in movies as well. And I'm not saying that mystery fans will regret their time with Umineko, since it is still a decent narrative(even if in need of an editor) but it's hard not to cringe for a bit when Ryuukishi talks about things like "the motive is the most neglected aspect of a mystery" which in my experience, is just not true.


Really, I think all the complaints are more like this. Ryukishi invited us all to dinner and mentioned that the main dish would be meat. Some fans jumped to the conclusion that this meant Ryukishi was going to serve us filet mignon, but when we got there, we found out that it was pot roast instead. Very nicely cooked, but pot roast. You can either keep crying about how Ryukishi tricked you into thinking it was filet mignon and talk about how terrible the dinner is, or you can accept the nice pot roast and critique the work based on what it actually is. (And don't get me wrong--I didn't exactly want pot roast either. I wanted stew. But it's not a bad pot roast.)

Haha, nice analogy. However, leaving the mystery aside, I still don't like how the series was concluded. It's more like he invited us to dinner, mentioned the main dish would be meat, made a long speech about how to cook filet mignon that was...questionable, but still left us hungry for it, then in the end he gave us pot roast. Not just any pot roast, but a rather sub-par pot roast filled with parts of a filet mignon that made it look like a mutant sandwich from hell.

Critiquing the work on what it actually is, it's not a mystery. But it talks about them and makes a few mistaken assumptions about the genre. Leaving all mystery aside, the ending still felt like a letdown.

[Klashikari]

We are dangerously derailing yet again the subject into the franchise as a whole. I would like you to stop repeating the same things in the wrong thread, as it is getting exhausting on the middle and long run.
Please remain on topic regardless which thread you are on, and we are currently on the thread for Episode 8 only.

And again, I certainly wish that people stop declaring their interpretations into facts. I dunno about you, but there are limits to allegations, regardless if you are satisfied or not with the franchise.

[Will Wright]

If you want to get technical we were discussing the mystery genre not the overall series. But sure, as you wish. Musoka, if you wish to continue that debate I suppose we would have to do it over at the other thread. I get your points though, just disagree about the whydunit argument. Outside of that, I'm fine with it.

As for discussing episode 8 itself, I think that my biggest problems with it come down to the fact that episode 7 was basically entirely meaningless. Will, Lion and Erika(to a lesser degree) just showing up felt wrong. Yes I know that Erika had an excuse, they consider her part of the game and all. But seriously, all that talk about Lion being Beatrice's chance at a happy ending was just useless.

I did like the Erika scenes though. She felt like a more likable and clever character than before.

[musouka]

I'll respond to your previous message in the general spoilers thread.

EP7 wasn't entirely meaningless in the scope of EP8. The Tea Party of EP7 was entirely meaningless in the scope of EP8.

Think of it this way.

If EP7 had left off with Will and Lion quietly exiting the chapel, content in their knowledge of putting Beatrice to a beautiful, peaceful rest--the kind of rest she had longed for--and then cut to a crying six year old Ange to show that we still had some loose ends to wrap up, there would be absolutely no problem with how EP8 ended up.

Doing things like that allows for the following things that EP8 did:

1. The ending we saw for Will and Lion in EP7 was too cruel. If they had just exited the chapel, there wouldn't have been any sense of lost catharsis in their situation. We would have been able to fully accept them as honorable guests borrowed from another game board without that disconnect between how we were left with them in EP7 and how they're acting in EP8.

2. Bern's attitude. Before the Tea Party, we see Bern as sardonic, but pretty disinterested party. She mocks the entire proceedings, but isn't emotionally invested in it herself. The Tea Party shows how deep her loathing runs and how horrible her vengeance on Beatrice really is. Not only that, but she emerges from that utterly victorious. EP8 never addresses that and thus that's another level in which catharsis isn't reached by the reader.
Allowing her to exit the stage the way she did in EP7 without the Tea Party makes her role in EP8 as a "heartless but ultimately inconsequential" villain make more sense. She's doing these things for her own reason (Featherinne asking her to) and enjoys being mean, but it really is just a story to her.

3. There is a difference between leaving Beatrice dissolved into snow in a beautiful burial ceremony and leaving her on a lonely stage with her guts ripped out. Even if you think Beatrice is no longer around to witness that level of cruelty--and Bern's words do leave that in doubt--we, the readers witnessed all of it and want it to be addressed. There is satisfaction in Battler punching Bern in the face, but it doesn't allow catharsis for this situation, because that's not his motivation for doing it.
It's like watching a movie where the villain stabs a child in the heart and then escapes from the police, only to be hit by a car several weeks later in a completely unrelated incident. We want to see people punished for the crimes they commit, not just punished in general.

[zorahk]

Since I dont want to read through the thread and get spoiled, where is the branch for the trick/magic end so I know where to save. And those are the only two endings right?

[Rias]

Since I dont want to read through the thread and get spoiled, where is the branch for the trick/magic end so I know where to save. And those are the only two endings right?

You'll know when it's presented to you. Battler will talk about the two choices that Ange has to make and all that.

[zorahk]

Ok cool. Back to reading w/o a dictionary (brainpowerrrrr)

[Ayu-ayu]

- Ange feels transported back to the skyscraper where she first met Bern. Bern tells her if she is capable of reaching this truth. She says that sometimes the truth you finally get might do something different to you than you initially believed. She says Ange doesn't have the right to request the truth. She begins to ask herself if she really possesses the resolution to accept the truth, no matter what it may be.





You missed an important point here, I think, although one most have guessed by now :).

Ange gets mad at Bern for showing her the horrible kakera where her parents are the culprits and declaring it to be true in red.

Bern counters that she did NOT say this to be true in red, but rather that Ange cut her off when she screamed. What she was going to say was, "this is all...not necessarily true..." (yeah, the sentence cut-off doesn't parse into English cleanly, but it's more or less what everyone had guessed about that bit of interrupted red text). She then goes on to say that she was "testing" Ange to see if she was really ready to handle the truth or not.

[MeoTwister5]

Yeah but I think I'd rather not make that section of the summary more confusing considering the dynamic of their conversation on the rooftop, so since people likely figured it out already in Ep7 I think I'll leave it out.

Also for everyone else I'm taking a breather today from summarizing, since this has been the quickest pace of work I've done since episode 5 and yeah it really is rather mentally taxing. I'll be back to it tomorrow since I get off classes early. Hope you guys understand.:)

[Turtleen]

I'm finally done with Episode 8...

Thank you for saying this. I absolutely loved EP8 and have been rather frustrated with this internet hate spiral towards it. You just said everything I wanted to but just couldn't find the right way to express. This. Just. This.

[Ayu-ayu]

Yeah but I think I'd rather not make that section of the summary more confusing considering the dynamic of their conversation on the rooftop, so since people likely figured it out already in Ep7 I think I'll leave it out.

Also for everyone else I'm taking a breather today from summarizing, since this has been the quickest pace of work I've done since episode 5 and yeah it really is rather mentally taxing. I'll be back to it tomorrow since I get off classes early. Hope you guys understand.:)

Good work so far, I've just been pacing you for a while so I thought I'd chip in. I do think it's important to mention it here though if not in the summary since there seem to be a few folks in the hating-but-haven't-read-it-yet crowd who think this point is not answered by R07.

[musouka]

It's a little bit more ambiguous than that, considering Bern's motives in this episode. However, I also think it should have been included in any summary given for the episode.