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Pellissier
2011-06-02, 06:43
Welcome to the discussion thread for AnoHana, Episode 8.

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HayashiTakara
2011-06-02, 10:38
Oh man, episode 8 already? Do anyone know how long this series is suppose to be? Considering production values, it seems to be a 12 episode anime. Man, can't wait!

viperdk1
2011-06-02, 10:44
Oh man, episode 8 already? Do anyone know how long this series is suppose to be? Considering production values, it seems to be a 12 episode anime. Man, can't wait!

It's 11 episodes (most noitaminA animes are 11 episodes - Eden of the East, Fractale, [C], Tokyo Magnitude 8.0 etc.).

Just watched the first 7 back-to-back. Why did I put this anime off for so long after it began?

Anyway, time to wait for episode 8...

deadite
2011-06-02, 11:48
Yukiatsu getting angry again. Menma writes something in her diary and makes a ghost phone call

Sebasu
2011-06-02, 11:57
Damn, that was a such an emotionally-packing episode. I think I was almost at tears twice lol. Haruka Tomatsu really nailed it. Amazing performance as Anaru. Aside from her, Miyu Irino and Takahiro Sakurai also stood out. lol Yukiatsu snapped out again.

And finally Menma moved something in front of everyone and have her presence felt more to the group through her diary. I guess the ghost vs hallucination thing should be over now.

Gah, the sad feeling there's only 3 episodes left ;_;

deadite
2011-06-02, 13:50
It seems Touko had message relayed to Menma to be given to Jinta that's why she called a meeting where Jinta would be kept in the dark. Menma never got the chance to relay the message that is why she cannot rest in peace.

The unexplainable events such as Jinta's sudden collapse. Could it be related to his mother's sickness? Why does Menma only show up know? Is it because Jinta is nearing death or is it because Menma was the one entrusted with the message from Touko?

shibakun
2011-06-02, 13:59
^No, Jintan's collapse was due to overworking himself.

Anyway, this episode was pure win! :D

You can really see the frustration and emotional involvement of each character through out the episode.

I'm glad that Menma finally proved that she can affect reality as a ghost. With this , hopefully they don't perceive Jintan as just being paranoid and everyone can now move on forward with the story.

Anaru pulled a desperado! With those type of gestures, it's like a sudden-death situation. The relationship will either collapse or the bonds they form will be even stronger. I hope their relationship improves and Jintan finally returns her feelings.

Tu101uk
2011-06-02, 17:43
Well, that was rather exciting... :3

The episode could be split really into three parts, all with increasing levels of angst and emotion...

The Menmama part was quite an awkward encounter. Nothing really untoward happened, it was just a parent still heavily grieving for her child and refusing to let go. Of course, it's natural to shift her sadness, anger and hate towards those closest to her daughter, but it left everyone in the group (except Jintan) wanting to stop with the whole Menma "nonsense". Jintan chooses to continue on regardless, that scene with Menma and The Dog of Flanders was quite touching, with yet another clue for Menma surfacing from her recovering memories...

The emotions were raised another bar with Anaru, who finally unloaded her feelings onto the one she's in love with, hoping to get a response from him and to stop him from continuing on in his quest to fulfill Menma's wish. Hopefully this will spur on Jintan to actually look at Anaru for a change - it seems pretty much that she's the next most important girl in his life and I wonder how he'll handle this once the whole Menma thing is resolved.

His collapse was slightly worrying - methinks it was just him being overworked, seeing as he's bearing the brunt of carrying out the wish. I certainly hope it's nothing more than that.

The plot thickened as strange things start to occur while Jintan is at work. A "slight breeze" knocks over some fliers as Menma eavesdrops on Poppo discussing how the group was beginning to fracture. Soon, Tsuruko and Yukiatsu both get cold calls from Jintan's house. Meanwhile Jintan had a short chat with Menma's little brother. The flashback was a nice touch as we see Menma acting like a rather responsible older sister.

The final scene was quite something else. So much was said by practically everyone, who seemed like they were at their wits' end with Jintan and the whole deal with Menma. More or less everyone was on the verge of turning on him, but then Menma intervened (in the nick of time too). The buildup took an entire half of the episode, but the execution in the end was spot on and so powerful, my eyes were swelling up slightly.

I definitely cannot wait 'til next week now to see how they follow on from this startling revelation (for the group anyways). Darn, no Tsuruko development this week, but looks like something's afoot with her next episode. Those "yandere" vibes are back......
O-O~

thundrakkon
2011-06-02, 18:01
My eyes were in tears at the final moments of the episode. After a little while, I went back to watch the final scene again, and my eyes teared up again. Wow, such powerful stuff.

So I am guessing the story will really pick up steam at this point, since this looks like the climax of the show. I am beginning to feel like I should have skipped this episode and wait for the next one before watching both. It will be a hard week to wait for what is next.

Tu101uk
2011-06-02, 18:05
My eyes were in tears at the final moments of the episode. After a little while, I went back to watch the final scene again, and my eyes teared up again. Wow, such powerful stuff.

So I am guessing the story will really pick up steam at this point, since this looks like the climax of the show. I am beginning to feel like I should have skipped this episode and wait for the next one before watching both. It will be a hard week to wait for what is next.
Trust me, I've rewatched that final part several times now, it's that good... ^_^

...Of course, the buildup to this one scene was thanks to everything else that happened before it in that episode (and, you could say, it's been a long time coming in the series)...

O-O~

EDIT - Also, that confession scene was brutal, Haruka Tomatsu in fine form. She definitely knows how to convey the feelings of a messed-up girl on the brink...

Flower
2011-06-02, 18:12
I have been thinking this for a while now, but Jintan's dad is a wonderful and understanding parent. :)

8/10 vote on this ep for me - the show continues to deliver!

Excellent stuff!

ars89
2011-06-02, 18:27
So Menma's mom just can't move on and still blames them. Scary when she was grabbing Tsuroku's arm like that.

Wow Anaru finally confessed all her feelings. Jintan totally blind-sided by that.

Nice to see Jintan recognize the importance of parents and how awesome his dad is.

Interesting that he was able to talk to Menma's brother.

Yukiatsu almost busted up Jintan twice at the end.

Finally Menma take's action and realizes that she can interact with the world. Te final scene had me in tears.

So we finally get to Tsuroku's guilt next week.

viperdk1
2011-06-02, 18:36
I have an inkling that this has been said before, but this is the most realistic portrayal of characters that I have seen. Ever. I see no stereotypes, just typical teenagers and parents who are trying to cope with what they lost in the past and life itself.

Think I'll add a little more later once I've slept on this one.

tsunade666
2011-06-02, 18:37
Man, this stuff is bad for my heart. Weekly dosage is too much. They tear up your heart with a broken down mom then a break up friends and a girl's confession. And finally hitting you mercilessly with a ghost is real!!

From the start of the show with everyone showing up to meet up with Menma's parents. The mom's who's beyond despair for her daughter death and still her friends are the same and happy. The torment of seeing it.

The friends who can't see or feel the same pain of someone who kept seeing a walking nightmare or a curse morning till night. And the friends who also wants to see her back but can't. Breaking up of bonds.

A girl who likes the same person from childhood days till present who continues to watched him and her feelings was been poured out of her chest but still it didn't reach the guy who's been shackled by his past in physical form.

The guy who kept moving for for keeping the promise even if he himself is alone. Still moving forth even if his too tired to move on. And his dad was cool :D they are really father and son. Like the scene where he called forth the neighbors so divert those 2 gossiping neighbors attention away from Jinta.

Little bro also admires his big sis even if he has little memories about her.

The ghost finally make her move. From calls to message. Gathering up the group. Confrontations of friends. That guy snapped again -_- well I kinda understand it.

Then finally a overkill move. To prove she is not just a hallucination but a real ghost that can affect reality. A written statement in the diary.

This show is just superb that I can't describe it as mere work. Though it's too much crying can get a little annoying or getting used to it so it's not that much of an effect but the emotion in it is genuine that it makes you forget that your seeing it again and again in a weekly basis.

DragoonKain3
2011-06-02, 20:06
Mom stole the episode IMO. Now we get why Honma dad put away Menma's stuff... Honma mom is on the brink of insanity as it is. :heh: Maybe Honma dad ain't so bad after all, and that maybe there's a reason for him not wanting to shoot the fireworks.

And bah... not even a smidgen clue for YukiaTsuruko, but I guess that's just being greedy considering the awesome JintAnaru scene we got.

sikvod00
2011-06-02, 20:18
Now we know why Menma's brother acts the way he does. While it's tragic that their family lost Menma, you still have a son...count your blessings, mom. .:upset:

Triker
2011-06-02, 20:57
I feel sorry for Menma's brother. I really understand how he felt. :(

Can't wait for next week. The ending is superb.

Texas84
2011-06-02, 21:07
I've got to stop watching this right before bedtime. How am I going to sleep after that? I actually applauded the ending. Just wow.

serenade_beta
2011-06-02, 21:50
Oi, oi, if Menma could just do all of this to tell her existence to everyone, I feel that she could have just done it sooner.
At least now we have more more weapon to defeat yanderu Menmama with.
I thought maybe she couldn't do anything physically and everyone she had done was just Jintan's imagination or something like that, but it seems that isn't true. But Menma has done stuff like lift up food and eat it... Yet Pidg... Poppo didn't react to it.
......
Well, maybe you shouldn't think too hard on that.
It was like a horror movie though. :heh: Scary, scary... :eyespin:

Guardian Enzo
2011-06-02, 22:15
That was an amazingly powerful ep on so many levels, but one little thing really grabbed me. Just when I thought they really needed some fleshing out, Jintan's Dad and Memnma's brother got just that - it was perfectly timed. And what did Jintan say to the brother there, right after the scene change?

Anime posters this week: Working!, Kurshitsuji (I and II), Hourou Musuko.

wandering-dreamer
2011-06-02, 22:32
I think it makes perfect sense for this to be the first time Menma has shown herself to the rest of the group, she's been out of the loop for a few episodes so she didn't know how strained the group was becoming and how much pressure they were putting on Jintan. And as soon as she did know she did something about it, plus it was shown in the previous episode that other people could see Menma moving things.

As for Menmama, geeze, are there no therapists in this town? She's still grieving and it seems like to the point where it creeps out her husband and son (and kind of neglects him, I felt really sorry for that kid) and that really doesn't seem healthy. I wonder if she was the one who convinced her husband not to let the kids have the rocket (as opposed to Menma's dad not trusting high school kids with really powerful rockets, I mean, you saw that plan they came up with as elementary kids :heh: ).

Guardian Enzo
2011-06-02, 22:46
I got the sense that Menma's brother had been waiting to pour his heart to someone for years, and had no one to listen until Jintan wandered back into the picture. If Menmama resented the Busters for surviving when Menma died, it isn't hard to speculate that she resents her brother, too. Poor kid...

Kaoru Chujo
2011-06-02, 22:47
The emotional tension and unease was horrible and wonderful. Great job by Tomacchan in the confession scene. Powerful cliffhanger: show you the physical event, but leave peoples' reactions to next week. Nasty.

I didn't feel the "hatred" from Irena that Anaru did. Just despair and envy and "why her and not one of them?" Seems highly understandable. The kids didn't have the wherewithal to keep talking with her and explain that they really felt guilty and still loved Menma. Her lines could have been delivered in a more hateful way than they were, or perhaps it was me drawing the wrong conclusion from the seiyuu's tone of voice. Oura Fuyuka (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/people.php?id=12420) is a good voice actress: recently Otake in Five Leaves and Kifa in Legendary Heroes.

Triple_R
2011-06-02, 23:05
9/10 for this exciting episode eight.



I'm surprised - not pleasantly, or unpleasantly, just surprised - that Okada chose to address the nature of Jinta's Menma so conclusively in this episode, even to the other Super Peace Busters. It's a bold move, particularly with 3 episodes to go, and I appreciate Okada having the courage to make it.

Menma's timing in that moment was excellent, as without her demonstrating her presence as she did, there's little doubt that most (if not all) of the rest of the Super Peace Busters would turn on Jinta. Menma has shown considerable character growth in this episode and the last.

I felt that there was very good drama and plot build-up in this episode. While watching, I had that tangible sense that things were coming to a head, and that the anime was carefully and methodically building up towards both a good episode climax, as well as a climax for the anime's story as a whole.

It's not often I see this level of very tight plot pacing and shrewdly applied dramatic buildup, and so I have to commend Okada for her work here.

I am really hoping for Jinta and Anaru to end up together now. I think that's what Anaru wants, and I think that such a relationship would signify that Jinta is moving on in life.

hero147
2011-06-02, 23:13
All I can say or think about is: Wow, I'm utterly speechless. I think my heart skipped a beat, approaching the end of the episode because I was so emotionally drawn into it.

Johnny
2011-06-02, 23:23
Would have liked to seen Jinta turn that situation around and slam Yukiatsu into the wall. Then voice what he was agonizing over earlier that he doesn't think it's fair that he can only see Menma either...

On a lighter note. Since she can interact with physical things why not dump flower or some kind of substance that will give her shape, or would that probably really creep the others out too much...?:heh:

Guardian Enzo
2011-06-02, 23:28
I think this ep really gives an idea of why I don't want Okada to "go big" and try and have a climax around something like Jintan having a critical illness. It would be such a soap opera move and so totally unnecessary. There's so much power in the simple, straightforward situations as presented - just the survivor's guilt all the Busters are feeling is powerful enough to drive the climax with room to spare. They're all in such pain, all for different reasons, but it all boils down to this - they feel that on some level, Menmama was right. As if all that weren't enough, Anaru finally confessed to Jintan this week (a home run scene for Haruka Tomatsu) - not just her love, but her guilt at feeling glad when Jintan had rejected little Menma and hurt her feelings.Why spoil that by tacking on a needless plot twist at the end?

I'm still a little exhausted by the emotional roller-coaster two hours after I watched the episode, quite frankly. This show is quite an intense experience.

deadite
2011-06-02, 23:30
Another tidbit is how it seems that Menma did not cry one bit when the group was in turmoil.

Kotohono
2011-06-02, 23:56
Before this episode I just generally felt the show was decent to good[which caused me to be too lazy to read/comment], but this episode was just phenomenal in the emotional level it pulled with, and the execution of the drama both in the scenes with Menma's mother and brother, and Anjou. And of course the ending of the episode was excellent too, easily a 10/10 for this episode from me :).

Reckoner
2011-06-03, 00:04
Amazing episode. 10/10

The whole episode was slowly breaking down my emotional barrier until the very end with Yukiatsu shedding a couple of tears and the fade away into the ED. My god.

Ano Hana delivered an excellent episode just when I felt they needed to turn it up a notch again. Definitely the better Maria Okada anime this season by a good margin.

Master Chibi
2011-06-03, 00:10
I haven't been this emotionally drawn into a show in a very, VERY long while, and this episode just solidified what an amazing job this series is doing. I clutched my damn shirt during Anaru's confession scene, Menma's mother's breakdown was so saddening, and the group turning on Yadomi only to be proven wrong in the last few moments had me turn on the fan just to stuff it in my face to get some air after all that.

God damn.

SoFarGone
2011-06-03, 00:12
I personally didn't shed a tear instead I found it kinda funny. The last scene was the best.

Master Chibi
2011-06-03, 00:48
I personally didn't shed a tear instead I found it kinda funny. The last scene was the best.

Oh yeah, a group of friends coming to terms with the guilt they've had for years over the death of their childhood friend, one of them confessing her love for the main character but being equally tormented, and a mother still grieving over the loss of her daughter and her public display of resentment to the group that inadvertently caused it all to the point where she breaks down in front of them IS FUCKING HILARIOUS. Pure comedic gold bro. Totally.

...

:uhoh:

mpt37
2011-06-03, 00:53
I've always liked Haruka Tomatsu's voice and she has done a great job throughout the series but her performance during the confession scene was really something. Definitely one of the highlights of the series so far for me.

Nice to see the group finally got some proof that Menma's really there and Jintan hasn't gone mad.

Hiro Hayase
2011-06-03, 01:12
Well, that was rather exciting... :3

The episode could be split really into three parts, all with increasing levels of angst and emotion...

The Menmama part was quite an awkward encounter. Nothing really untoward happened, it was just a parent still heavily grieving for her child and refusing to let go. Of course, it's natural to shift her sadness, anger and hate towards those closest to her daughter, but it left everyone in the group (except Jintan) wanting to stop with the whole Menma "nonsense". Jintan chooses to continue on regardless, that scene with Menma and The Dog of Flanders was quite touching, with yet another clue for Menma surfacing from her recovering memories...

The emotions were raised another bar with Anaru, who finally unloaded her feelings onto the one she's in love with, hoping to get a response from him and to stop him from continuing on in his quest to fulfill Menma's wish. Hopefully this will spur on Jintan to actually look at Anaru for a change - it seems pretty much that she's the next most important girl in his life and I wonder how he'll handle this once the whole Menma thing is resolved.

His collapse was slightly worrying - methinks it was just him being overworked, seeing as he's bearing the brunt of carrying out the wish. I certainly hope it's nothing more than that.

The plot thickened as strange things start to occur while Jintan is at work. A "slight breeze" knocks over some fliers as Menma eavesdrops on Poppo discussing how the group was beginning to fracture. Soon, Tsuruko and Yukiatsu both get cold calls from Jintan's house. Meanwhile Jintan had a short chat with Menma's little brother. The flashback was a nice touch as we see Menma acting like a rather responsible older sister.

The final scene was quite something else. So much was said by practically everyone, who seemed like they were at their wits' end with Jintan and the whole deal with Menma. More or less everyone was on the verge of turning on him, but then Menma intervened (in the nick of time too). The buildup took an entire half of the episode, but the execution in the end was spot on and so powerful, my eyes were swelling up slightly.

I definitely cannot wait 'til next week now to see how they follow on from this startling revelation (for the group anyways). Darn, no Tsuruko development this week, but looks like something's afoot with her next episode. Those "yandere" vibes are back......
O-O~

I couldn't have said it better myself. :) Haruka Tomatsu's voice acting was superb.
I really sympathize with Jinta and Mema's little brother so much its scary. Jinta should just put a blanket over Mema or have her draw stuff in front of Peace Busters to prove her existence again. This episode had me close to tears twice...

SoFarGone
2011-06-03, 01:25
Oh yeah, a group of friends coming to terms with the guilt they've had for years over the death of their childhood friend, one of them confessing her love for the main character but being equally tormented, and a mother still grieving over the loss of her daughter and her public display of resentment to the group that inadvertently caused it all to the point where she breaks down in front of them IS FUCKING HILARIOUS. Pure comedic gold bro. Totally.

...

:uhoh:
I didn't mean it funny as in comedy. More like funny feeling instead of sad, you know what I mean?

Master Chibi
2011-06-03, 01:36
I didn't mean it funny as in comedy. More like funny feeling instead of sad, you know what I mean?

No.

Funny = haha I'm laughing.

Sad = Boo hoo I'm crying.

Explain it better.

eplipswich
2011-06-03, 02:00
I didn't mean it funny as in comedy. More like funny feeling instead of sad, you know what I mean?

It's most likely you call it funny because you have never felt something so emotional before. In that case, you should call it "so emotional I cannot take it!" :)

Yeah, indeed, it's a very emotional episode this week, especially the end. When I saw Yukiatsu grab Jinta's shirt, I was like thinking "Come on, Jinta! Punch him back, man. Show him that Menma's the real deal! Be more aggressive!"

I hope Menma does more things so as to further prove her existence :) From the start, I'm always convinced Menma's a ghost and not a hallucination, and all along, she is :)

SoFarGone
2011-06-03, 02:04
No.

Funny = haha I'm laughing.

Sad = Boo hoo I'm crying.

Explain it better.
funny feeling as in bad vibes, strange, etc. Something like that. Thats just how I felt after watching the episode. I didn't feel sad but felt weird.

Valin
2011-06-03, 02:15
Amazing episode. This anime is quickly rising its way to my top picks of all time.

TurkeyPotPie
2011-06-03, 02:19
Anime posters this week: Working!, Kurshitsuji (I and II), Hourou Musuko.

There were a couple of Sekirei posters too.

The description of the phone calls from Menma creeped me out a bit -- a "scraping sandy noise".

rockimabal
2011-06-03, 02:28
Oh yeah, a group of friends coming to terms with the guilt they've had for years over the death of their childhood friend, one of them confessing her love for the main character but being equally tormented, and a mother still grieving over the loss of her daughter and her public display of resentment to the group that inadvertently caused it all to the point where she breaks down in front of them IS FUCKING HILARIOUS. Pure comedic gold bro. Totally.

...

:uhoh:

The end of Anaru's confession (about 9:50) where she said "Jintan you're an idiot" and "I'm such an idiot' were so narmy it made me chuckle.:p

EroKing
2011-06-03, 02:51
Only 10/10 for this episode? Nah, it deserves so much more. I thought the previous ones were good but this, this one just was too powerful. I felt like I got KO'ed twice, first with the Jintan-Naruko scene and then at the ending. It's been a long since I have watched something this emotionally heavy. With series such as these there is hope for the anime world after all.

Om Nerabdator
2011-06-03, 02:52
this show sounds pretty good but ill wait till the last ep is out to see if jinta ends up with anaru if not im not watching it....i hate shows like that

Khu
2011-06-03, 03:36
hoooooooooooooly fuckkkkkkkkkkkkkk

MIND = BLOWN

Though, plot hole: if she could influence the physical world...why didn't she do that in the first place. :/

ahelo
2011-06-03, 03:40
Episode 8 (http://traveleronrevenge.wordpress.com/2011/06/03/ano-hana-08/)

Fantastic episode. Although I think 11 episodes really isn't enough to finish this and turn out into a masterpiece. But this episode was enough to make up for the series not being 20+ episodes I guess.

thundrakkon
2011-06-03, 03:41
Though, plot hole: if she could influence the physical world...why didn't she do that in the first place. :/

I was hoping for her to do it episodes ago. However, I think the best explanation is that she never felt the need to. In a way, her mind is still very young.

Jintan was not sure if she is real even after all that time, so he never requested for her to do anything in front of someone else. Plus, he was afraid they may think he is crazy.

In this episode, she finally began to realize things and felt the need to finally act. Before, she just wanted to have fun and enjoy her moments.

Kakkou
2011-06-03, 04:03
This episode seriously hit it out of the ball park for me. It was just one finely executed emotional scene after the other until that great ending. I honestly feel sad for all the characters. They're so well written. It was wonderful that they even got Menma's brother to show his side of the story of how he felt his parents (or just mother?) were seemingly grieving so much over the loss of a child that the other one may as well have not existed. I really wonder what Jintan said to him? Menma's mother needs to stop blaming her daughter's friends, move on and cherish what remains of her family before it's too late. But of course, like what AnoHana's been driving home since the beginning, such things are much easier said than done. I gladly await how Mari Okada will solve these issues and wrap up this wonderful story.

EDIT: Of course, extra extra credit out to the incredible voice work by the cast. The crying scenes in particular hold such an impact like when Jintan was crying over 'Patrasche' or Anaru's saddening confession ;__;.

MeoTwister5
2011-06-03, 04:10
That's some pretty serious PTSD she's carrying there, and she's probably been projecting everything towards them since the day she died. She seriously could have used some help back then, but nothing we can do about it now I suppose.

The show has done surprisingly well in showing just how differently people handle grief and guilt. Some do it fine while others take it to their illogical extremes. Yukiatsu's anger is justified as Jinta's constant activities keep opening up old wounds, but these old wounds never healed. It's like during surgery, you never close an infected wound because no matter how many times you close it up, it will always open and fester again and again. The only way to put closure is to heal it, finally. No matter how everyone else tries to bury it deep, it'll only open up again. Jinta's attempts may bring back pain to those wounds, but he above everyone else is doing it so that the wounds can finally be healed, and finally be closed.

The ending of the episode of course is one big OMGWTFBBQ cliffhanger. Menma's finally acting and not letting others do all the work. More comments on my blog tomorrow I guess.

Pellissier
2011-06-03, 04:13
What an episode. I could swear I've seen some full series with less content and less emotional involvement than this one episode alone.

Everything was so intense, heartbreaking... and piling up, minute after minute. Highlights, the Anaru-Jintan scene, which strengthened my earlier impression that this might be Tomatsu Haruka's career high. Then the last scene, everyone's going against Jintan, Menma comes to the rescue, and then they drop us with the ending credits.

A powerful anime is able to communicate with various means, not only implying direct communication. Jintan's father didn't say much, so did Menma's brother. Yet we could perceive so much about them. We didn't even see nor heard Menma's father, yet we could infer he's not the bad guy they wanted us to believe, he probably just acted out of consideration for his wife, or for his daughter's memory.

The part about Menma's mother was very sad, because not only she's broken in the sense that she hasn't gotten over Menma's loss, but she's broken to the point of damaging the lives of who's close to her. Menma's brother basically never had a mother and is even ashamed that he has one who behaves like this.

Finally, always in theme of communicating through different means, this episode had very little background musics, just some light and mellow arrangements to accompany a few touching scene, but otherwise it was a totally silent episode. It was a great touch, consistently adding to the whole. Silence is the epitome of death and mourning, after all. But despite its silence, this episode was deafening.

khryoleoz
2011-06-03, 05:02
I know how beautiful anime can be. But how can the experience of watching a beautiful anime be so beautiful? Crying is for girls and pansies. After watching this, I now need a tampon for the first time ever in my whole life!

I also have to agree with others. Haruka Tomasu's performance is absolutely superb, deserving of recognition and an award. As much anime as I've watched in more than a decade, I haven't heard a crying and protest scene voiced better than this. And yet the whole ensemble of characters is just amazing!

Airman8
2011-06-03, 06:01
I didn't mean it funny as in comedy. More like funny feeling instead of sad, you know what I mean?

No.

Funny = haha I'm laughing.

Sad = Boo hoo I'm crying.

Explain it better.



I find it kind of funny
I find it kind of sad
The dreams in which I'm dying
Are the best I've ever had


Anyway... very intense episode. I'm quite impressed. Throughout the series the plot has been very tightly constructed, and it's been balanced perfectly with a level of character development that's more genuine than most other anime I've seen.

I think what actually struck me the most in the last scene was how utterly calm Menma was. Almost no words at all, and a facial expression that seemed to convey a complete understanding and (dare I say) forgiveness of her friends.

I wonder if next week will pick up right where we've left off in the clubroom, or whether it'll segue to something else to give us a break. I'm wired now and I doubt I'll be able to get to sleep!

Narzia
2011-06-03, 06:08
Shit is finally hitting the fan. Both AnoHana and C had fantastic episodes this week. Don't worry Yamakan, even without you anime might still be saved!

CWW
2011-06-03, 06:11
Shit just got real. Be still, my beating heart.

hoooooooooooooly fuckkkkkkkkkkkkkk

MIND = BLOWN

Though, plot hole: if she could influence the physical world...why didn't she do that in the first place. :/
It was brought up in another forum, so I take no credit, and I'm paraphrasing: Menma was happy the way things were with Jinta. By showing her existence, she would have snowballed the granting of her wish, which would have eventually lead to her disappearance. She didn't want that.

However, once she saw Jinta crying and found out about the Super Peace Busters' fights by eavesdropping Poppo and linked the events together, she made the effort to rally everyone by calling them and show the rest that she is in fact real. She cares about Jinta too much to sit idle and watch him get hurt.

She has some common sense in that she doesn't follow him around everywhere. Plus, she must be thinking that her revelation would hurt her mother even more. She wants her to forget about her daughter, not be more obsessed than she already is. Menma is more mature than people give her credit for.

Haak
2011-06-03, 06:25
Holy crap, it actually happened. :eek:

applejuice
2011-06-03, 06:49
A powerful anime is able to communicate with various means, not only implying direct communication.


Totally this, absolutely this. Nagai's direction was in perfection in this episode. I'm so embarrassed for comparing him with yamakan 2 years ago There was no scenes that is wasted; I was in complete focus on the screen for entire 20 minutes of the episode.

Wonderful episode. This week has been very awesome for many powerful episodes, including Steins;Gate, Control and Denpa Onna.

Plus, I still say Yakiatsu is the best character.

MeoTwister5
2011-06-03, 07:01
Holy crap, it actually happened. :eek:

Did you really think it wouldn't happen? I actually thought this was the best way to do it without being sappy and overly sentimental.:eyespin:

Letting Go (http://meotwister5.wordpress.com/2011/06/03/ano-hana-ep8-letting-go/)

The group itself, after seeing Menma’s mother, had finally reached their breaking point. It would take nothing less than Menma manifesting herself to convince them that Jinta was still in command of his sanity. Manifest she did, if rather indirectly. The group was brought together on what would tantamount to a whim, and one cannot blame them when only one member of the five could claim to see her. At most they could only have faith in Jinta’s word, but after seeing so much lingering pain that festers on the wounds of everyone involved, faith could only take them so far. Did they really believe in Jinta’s words, or did they only follow for fun? Without any proof that their actions would mean something, that it would really do anything for Menma, it’s only natural for them to question everything and just abandon it all. I cannot blame Yukiatsu for his reaction and for everyone else almost following suit.

But proof, practically a miracle, did occur. Menma had finally stopped being a passive observer to everything and decided that she was there not to let others fulfill her wish, but to also help fulfill it herself. She wasn’t just there to watch her friends reconnect with each other, but to also reconnect with them herself. She wasn’t just there to watch other’s pain from a distance. She was there not to just watch, but to make things right. She wasn’t there just for herself but for others. She was there both to be healed and to heal. She was there for a reason, a reason she had finally realized.

And now she is able to act.

Zeroryoko1974
2011-06-03, 07:16
Wow, this episode...:sad::upset:

Kopi
2011-06-03, 08:51
This anime is seriously good.. the music was spot-on when Menma appeared in the hideout and that ending theme song as usual... :upset:

Jintan's Dad is awesome with how understanding he is and poor Menma's little brother.. but I assume his Dad do care about him, right? :(

Otani-kun
2011-06-03, 08:52
For all the complainers who said it'd be so much easier if Menma just used her ability to interact with the world to prove herself to the others, there you have it. ;>

I hope they'll finally start trusting Jintan for real now.

blewin
2011-06-03, 08:55
so Menma finally acts! been expecting it but it didn't give me that "wow" moment as it ought to (in my imagination anyway). It's very down to earth, very real, kind of scary (a ghost after all) but also very emotional and nostalgic... of a friend coming back and friends coming together one more time. The Peace Busters are never complete without Menma.

Maybe Menma's purpose of coming back is to come to terms with herself for leaving this life, just as everyone else has to come to terms with living without her anymore. We keep seeing scenes of Menma looking at Jinta's mum's photo... really, could her lingering feeling be her unwillingness to let go and leave? (or just to say a proper goodbye)

Riou17
2011-06-03, 08:56
In all my years of watching anime, this is the only series that made me cry so much. I cried thrice and wasn't able to concentrate on watching because my tears kept on falling. This episode is so intense and heartbreaking.

The scene of Menmama reminds me of the story of Air TV. Just like how Minagi's mother forgot about her (same reason as Menmama), Menmama kinda forgotten that she still has a son who's wanting for her affection. I also don't blame Menmama for acting like that. Imagine losing your first child who's sweet, thoughtful and full of life in an accident, I'm not surprised that she's still hanged up with Menma.

Baka Jintan for walking out on Anaru's confession. I cried the most here XD Props to Tomatsu Haruka for being such an awesome seiyuu and for delivering the lines so emotionally. I just wish that Jintan turns his attention to Anaru once he's done with Menma's wish.

I was speechless at the last scene. Mostly because I was crying so much. Also, I applaud Menma in this scene because she handled the situation calmly. I thought she was going to cry and shout 'Stop it!', but she just smiles and made her presence known to everyone. As oppose to her being naive and a crybaby, she handled it quite nicely.

Next up is Tsuruko. Can't wait for next week. I hope when I wake up, it's already next week XD

ID555
2011-06-03, 09:22
OMOOOOOOI.... but so goood....

Ascaloth
2011-06-03, 09:39
Oh. Wow. This is... wow.

This here, this is good stuff. This is right up there with Maeda Jun's best. This is the kind of thing I've never seen in anime since "because it's the first thing Papa chose and bought for me".

I've missed anime like these for the longest time. :(

Triple_R
2011-06-03, 09:40
One area where I have to disagree somewhat with many other posters here is on the topic of Jinta's dad.

Now, Jinta's dad is clearly caring and well-intentioned, to his credit.

But, in my view, a good parent does more to try to stop their child's descent into personal self-destruction than what Jinta's dad did.

Prior to Jinta getting work, he really was in a hikikomori rut, and particularly given his age, that really could have ruined him for life if he didn't turn things around.

It's fine and good to show understanding to why a child does what he does, but even then, some choices shouldn't be calmly accepted. One such choice was Jinta choosing to pretty much opt out of school entirely, and not find work anywhere.

User68604
2011-06-03, 10:54
zzzzz why do people think this series is even remotely on par with clannad after story? this is an above average anime with high production values at best...

hoping they start to wrap up the story soon...id like to move on from this series more than they want to move on from menma

Ascaloth
2011-06-03, 10:59
zzzzz why do people think this series is even remotely on par with clannad after story? this is an above average anime with high production values at best...

hoping they start to wrap up the story soon...id like to move on from this series more than they want to move on from menma

Weeeeeell do forgive me for thinking this is the closest it's gotten in anime to CLANNAD AS in the couple of years since the latter aired. :rolleyes:

Soconfused
2011-06-03, 11:05
Very good episode, I love how sooo much happens in every episode in this show, it leaves me satisfied every week and makes the wait for the next one not so bad. Though I wasn't to keen on Anaru's little confession, why would you let a brief feeling you had when you were a kid cause you so much trouble?

Also, Menma writing in her diary at the end was fantastic, if not a little far fetched. I guess she used all the commotion to find a pencil and start scribbling without anyone noticing, then conveniently drops it on the same page, godlike ghost powers.

zzzzz why do people think this series is even remotely on par with clannad after story? this is an above average anime with high production values at best...

hoping they start to wrap up the story soon...id like to move on from this series more than they want to move on from menma

anime, serious business.

HayashiTakara
2011-06-03, 11:10
Excellent once again! Anaru is making her move! and Menma is finally making everyone notices her existence! Didn't I say it before? All she had to do was write something! But, it's ok that they waited this long, the series would've ended sooner.

About Jinta's father... What he's doing wrong is that he's trying to be a friend and not a parent. It's the worse way to raise a child, we even see Jinta secretly wanting his father to scold him and set him straight.

Triple_R
2011-06-03, 11:18
zzzzz why do people think this series is even remotely on par with clannad after story? this is an above average anime with high production values at best...

hoping they start to wrap up the story soon...id like to move on from this series more than they want to move on from menma

Even as a huge Clannad: After Story fan, I think you're being a little harsh here.

I will say though that nothing touches Clannad: After Story for me. But the difference between that and Anohana isn't huge. This episode comes very close in quality to Clannad: After Story Episode 16, imo.


Excellent once again! Anaru is making her move! and Menma is finally making everyone notices her existence! Didn't I say it before? All she had to do was write something! But, it's ok that they waited this long, the series would've ended sooner.

Totally agree. If anything, it's bold for Okada to make this move with 3 episodes left to go.




About Jinta's father... What he's doing wrong is that he's trying to be a friend and not a parent. It's the worse way to raise a child, we even see Jinta secretly wanting his father to scold him and set him straight.

This is pretty much what I meant earlier on.

In fairness, though, if I had to choose between Jinta's dad or Ohana's mom (Ohana from Hanasaku) as a parent, I'm pretty sure I'd pick Jinta's dad, lol.

Guardian Enzo
2011-06-03, 11:19
One area where I have to disagree somewhat with many other posters here is on the topic of Jinta's dad.

Now, Jinta's dad is clearly caring and well-intentioned, to his credit.

But, in my view, a good parent does more to try to stop their child's descent into personal self-destruction than what Jinta's dad did.

Prior to Jinta getting work, he really was in a hikikomori rut, and particularly given his age, that really could have ruined him for life if he didn't turn things around.

It's fine and good to show understanding to why a child does what he does, but even then, some choices shouldn't be calmly accepted. One such choice was Jinta choosing to pretty much opt out of school entirely, and not find work anywhere.

I made mention of this in my blog post as well. Jintan's Dad is absolutely doing what he thinks is best, but I think he's erred in judgment by giving Jintan too much freedom. One of the reasons his son slipped as far as he did down the emotional rabbit hole was that his father probably never took him aside and had a "Yukiatsu" moment. I think we can all agree that your son becoming a hikikomori is not a good outcome, no matter the reasons.

However, how can you possibly judge him, given the circumstances? When an elementary school boy loses his best friend and his mother in short order, how can he find it in his heart to be harsh with the boy? He's like everyone else in the show - trying his best to do the right thing, and sometimes failing. The mistakes he's made have been mistakes of love, and he tries to hide his own pain behind a facade of perpetual cheerfulness. How can you not love a guy like that? That's why it was so nice to see Jintan appreciate just how lucky he was to have a Dad like that.

I'm not going to knock Jun Maeda (though I admit I'm more of a Naoki Hisaya fan), but to me Mari Okada exceeds him here because she's earning every ounce of sentiment through incredibly subtle character development and interaction. The story here is rife with potential for melodrama, but she's mining the pain and doubt these characters experience in their everyday lives for the power to drive the show. There's very little in terms of histrionics and emotional pandering and sentimental BGM - it's all honest and hard-earned.

Also - I really think Irinu Miyu and Haruka Tomatsu are stamping themselves as one of the great anime couples. They're fantastic independently, but every scene together is just phenomenal.

Kanon
2011-06-03, 11:25
First episode of AnoHana I rate 10/10, and hopefully not the last. The drama this time around felt incredibly real and tangible. Anaru's confession was wonderful; I've noticed all the best scenes -or at least, my favorite - are Jinta x Anaru scenes. Those two have amazing chemistry. Unfortunately, Jinta doesn't seem to see her in a romantic light. I hope this will change in the coming weeks.

The scene at Menma's house was another powerful one. Menmama seriously needs some help. I felt pretty bad for the little brother, her mother chose to live in the past and closed herself off, which led to him being neglected. As he himself put it, she should remember she still has one child left... By acting the way she does, it's as if she lost her second child.

I was so happy Menma finally did something. See? Writing a message helped a ton. This shoud have happened weeks ago. It was obvious that the others -save for Poppo- all thought he was delusional (why would they believe him the first place anyway?) and only went along with it because they pitied him. I really liked Menma's attitude during that scene. She's a more likable character when she doesn't cry all the time. We finally see the strength she displayed in the flashback we've been shown about a billion times by now.

Speaking of Jinta's dad, I'm surprised not commented on his BALDNESS. I couldn't help but laugh when he took off his hat. I didn't see that coming at all for some reason :heh:

BladeEntity
2011-06-03, 11:37
One the best episodes thus far if not the best. I think everything came together very well to bring in all the elements of the story thus far from the hints we were given. Basically it highlighted and emphasized what emotional problem every character who has had a connection to Memma has. Expecially liked the touch coming from Menma's mom, i think this episode brought about the role of parents in a parents life.

I think that all parents have their own methods of parenting, I persoanlly feel that Jintan's dad here adopts a good method to teach his son, taking into account that Jintan has always had a strong will from when he was young. I think for that kind of people, letting them find their way out is the best way for them to learn. It's never to late to start studying I think that's why he is so lax about it.

Yukiatsu finally blows, for a very selfish reason... but that highlights all the feelings he has had since before Menma died... that was bound to happen.

Anaru is such a great character as it is... I think the confession was well placed, leaving alot of space for development.

Overall a great episode. Hoping the level of drama stays for the remaining episodes.

Triple_R
2011-06-03, 11:45
I made mention of this in my blog post as well. Jintan's Dad is absolutely doing what he thinks is best, but I think he's erred in judgment by giving Jintan too much freedom. One of the reasons his son slipped as far as he did down the emotional rabbit hole was that his father probably never took him aside and had a "Yukiatsu" moment. I think we can all agree that your son becoming a hikikomori is not a good outcome, no matter the reasons.

Exactly.




However, how can you possibly judge him, given the circumstances? When an elementary school boy loses his best friend and his mother in short order, how can he find it in his heart to be harsh with the boy?

I don't think he should be harsh with the boy. But at least try to gently prod him into going back to school, or, failing that, find employment.

That being said, Jinta's dad is a very good person, and I'm glad that Jinta recognizes and appreciates that.




I'm not going to knock Jun Maeda, but to me Mari Okada easily exceeds him here because she's earning every ounce of sentiment through incredibly subtle character development and interaction.

I have to be honest, I pretty strongly disagree.

I find that this anime sometimes tries too hard to make the viewer cry. In some ways, I actually think that Maeda is more subtle, so I firmly disagree with you on your comparison between him and Okada.

The reason why I gave this episode 9/10 instead of 10/10 is because it didn't make me cry (which is probably not good given the content of this episode), and it didn't make me cry because I have been thoroughly desensitized to crying in this anime, due to how Menma was handled earlier.

This episode was excellent in most respects, and would have been perfect with more subtle setup, but I really can't agree with this idea that Anohana is subtle.

Where's the subtlety in having characters cry in pretty much every episode?

Even if one thinks that each instance of crying serves a good and important purpose, it's certainly not subtle to use it that much.

Klashikari
2011-06-03, 12:16
As much as I agree that this episode was definitely an excellent execution in term of drama department, the ending more or less confirmed that the story was hindering itself by the recurrent plot hole/device, which is solely Menma's existence.

I couldn't help but felt underwhelmed that this solution was used after all, like weeks too late, and only when things were about to get out of hand. I can't help but wonder if the fault lies in Menma, Jinta or both. It is just incredibly difficult to consider the drama catalyst being acceptable when things were resolved this way.

"Better late than never"? Perhaps, although it doesn't really clear the fundamental plot issue the series got starting from the very first episode, leading to a forced drama within the group.

That said, we indeed had an excellent whirlpool of emotions and feelings, realistically portrayed regarding teenagers being stuck by the past, but still growing up after all.
An excellent episode, but the series itself barely make up for its inherent flaw. Now it depends how they are going to wrap everything without pulling us a disney effect.

Guardian Enzo
2011-06-03, 12:19
I find Clannad incredibly emotionally manipulating myself - but to each his own, right? Jun Maeda just tries too hard for me - he doesn't push my buttons, though I did enjoy Clannad a fair amount.

Menma is really the only one who cries every episode (except the last two) and I honestly felt that, given you suspend disbelief and accept her circumstances, it's pretty understandable. The reason I consider this subtle is because of the character development - it's been built pretty deliberately over the course of the series - and without the need to spell out in minute detail why everyone was feeling the pain they were feeling. The situations were allowed to speak for themselves.

Emotional tug is almost as personal a thing as comedy, though. Everyone has different buttons...

kitten320
2011-06-03, 12:22
zzzzz why do people think this series is even remotely on par with clannad after story? this is an above average anime with high production values at best...

hoping they start to wrap up the story soon...id like to move on from this series more than they want to move on from menma

I didn't like After story much, at least not as much as 1st season because Nagisa/Tomoya were never that interesting for me despite having good chemistry. The whole drama was sad but that's bascily it. I was pretty boring untill drama had striken, only then things got interesting.

I can't say that this show is aweasome either, it has its minuses.

Besides you can't compare this and Clannad because they are about 2 totally different things with 2 different outcomes and settings. Tomoya never was able to see ghosts and it never was about him and his friends falling out because of someones death.



Anyway about the episode... I must say Jinta was a huge ass for acting like that with Anaru...

The final part made me a bit irritated, Menma could always move things around and knows a lot of stuff about others so why does she never make use out of it? There are so many ways she could convince everyone!
Good thing she finally did something, hope it won't stop there...


Otherwise it was a nice episode :)

Triple_R
2011-06-03, 12:24
I find Clannad incredibly emotionally manipulating myself - but to each his own, right? Jun Maeda just tries too hard for me - he doesn't push my buttons, though I did enjoy Clannad a fair amount.

Menma is really the only one who cries every episode (except the last two) and I honestly felt that, given you suspend disbelief and accept her circumstances, it's pretty understandable. The reason I consider this subtle is because of the character development - it's been built pretty deliberately over the course of the series - and without the need to spell out in minute detail why everyone was feeling the pain they were feeling. The situations were allowed to speak for themselves.

Emotional tug is almost as personal a thing as comedy, though. Everyone has different buttons...

That's fair.

For what it's worth, I do think that the characters here have been exceptionally well-developed, and the anime is to be credited in making me care about all of them.

I will also say that Anohana is the best drama I've seen in a very, very long time. As a pure drama, this episode is in the top tier, imo. :)

Guardian Enzo
2011-06-03, 12:31
As much as I agree that this episode was definitely an excellent execution in term of drama department, the ending more or less confirmed that the story was hindering itself by the recurrent plot hole/device, which is solely Menma's existence.

I couldn't help but felt underwhelmed that this solution was used after all, like weeks too late, and only when things were about to get out of hand. I can't help but wonder if the fault lies in Menma, Jinta or both. It is just incredibly difficult to consider the drama catalyst being acceptable when things were resolved this way.

"Better late than never"? Perhaps, although it doesn't really clear the fundamental plot issue the series got starting from the very first episode, leading to a forced drama within the group.

That said, we indeed had an excellent whirlpool of emotions and feelings, realistically portrayed regarding teenagers being stuck by the past, but still growing up after all.
An excellent episode, but the series itself barely make up for its inherent flaw. Now it depends how they are going to wrap everything without pulling us a disney effect.

I can't say I agree with this. Of course Menma's existence is a conceit. Pretty much every drama, much less a "magical realist" one, begins with a conceit. But I would judge the timing to be just about right. Menma's existence was confirmed not at the end, but at the beginning of the end - giving the characters ample space to sort through the emotional baggage that's still weighing them down. Menma's existence was never the point - it was the catalyst for the living to face up to the past and move past it.

That's why your comment about "things being resolved in this way" isn't one I agree with. Nothing has been resolved at all yet, and I think that's the point. Menma was a necessary conceit because all of these characters - the Busters, the parents, the little brother - were carrying around burdens from her death that could never be lifted unless they were to come together physically once more. In real life, they never would have - they'd likely have nursed their pain for the rest of their lives and found unhappiness through their own individual garden paths. Because this is anime, we get a chance to nudge things in a different direction and move towards closure. That's the point, it seems to me - and I can hardly imagine it could be done better than it has through eight episodes.

Klashikari
2011-06-03, 12:39
A great part of the drama between the Super Peace Busters was solely centred on Jinta "suddenly" bringing out Menma's existence to everyone else, without much explanations.
I don't need any science/magical explanation about Menma, nor the reason why she appears now and not later (although I would love to know why, still).
However, it is baffling to have the very mean of proving her existence from day 1, yet being denied because both Jinta and Menma weren't doing anything about that.

By itself, Menma's existence being proved doesn't solve everything (I never implied it so), however it -is- a solution (not "the" solution), since it will make everyone in the SPB group moving on at some point.
The solution itself would be okay if it was thought/introduced early on then denied for a "proper" reason. However, so far, color me strongly skeptical for a "proper reason" for any of the two not trying to at least explain things to the rest.

This is even worse with Yukiatsu and his deluded incident, but both Jinta and Menma didn't try anything. Is it too much to expect that bringing out "menma matter" would obviously hurt him?

Guardian Enzo
2011-06-03, 12:46
Well, I won't discount your opinion as invalid - you're certainly expressing it well. I just happen to feel differently. I would offer three possible reasons for why Menma hasn't revealed her existence already.

First - maybe she didn't know she could impact reality the way she did (writing in the diary, for example). Menma seemingly doesn't know exactly why she's there or what she is any more than Jintan does.

Second - I sincerely doubt Menma could just pick up any notepad and start writing. I think the finding of the diary was key - it was probably the necessary means for her to be able to communicate visually.

Third - On some level, both Jintan and Menma have known all along that by revealing her existence, they would take her one step closer to disappearing forever. For the both of them, the notion of having to say goodbye again is probably a difficult one to accept.

Klashikari
2011-06-03, 12:52
I can't say I'm all too convinced with the points you have brought:

1) It is difficult to accept that Menma doesn't realize she isn't affecting reality: she hugged people more than once with expressed reactions from them. She also made "cakes" that could be eaten by Jinta -and- other people.
It is just that no matter how I look at it, she could affect everyone without much subtility behind it. I know Menma is carefree, but that point doesn't make any sense considering she herself took actions in previous episodes that require the fact she realize she can affect the physical realm.

2) But why would she be able to make cake/muffin? She can cook, but can't write unless it is her diary...? What about the phone calls...?

3) The problem with this point is that none of them realized that this wish could lead to a farewell. This episode is an evidence itself: when Naruko mentioned that doing this would lead to Menma's disappearance, Jinta only realized at that very instant.
I should perhaps watch the previous episodes again, but there were no hints or subtle clues that any of them were worried about "post-wish" situation.

I don't exactly expect everything to be explained considering the nature of this series, and it doesn't take away the qualities and praises for this very episode. However, the series as a whole was hiindered by its very premise, which will lead to a difficult conclusion.
I will gladly enjoy a well written one, but I only expressed my concern, considering this episode just confirmed there was a crawling issue with Menma's existence.

CWW
2011-06-03, 13:07
Where's the subtlety in having characters cry in pretty much every episode?

Even if one thinks that each instance of crying serves a good and important purpose, it's certainly not subtle to use it that much.
This sentiment is a little overblown, especially since Menma didn't show the waterworks this time.

It's not like Menma is crying over every little thing like a spoiled child and the times she does it's for understandable reasons. She doesn't know why she's here (though she's slowly starting to recollect her memories), she sees people suffer because of her, plus the fact that she can cease to exist at any time must be on her mind.

It's funny. I couldn't watch Clannad anymore at some point, because it was so dreadful to watch Nagisa being helpless and useless in general. Thankfully, Menma is trying her best to overcome her fears and make amends. If that will mean she goes to heaven, leaving everyone behind, then so be it. She's starting to grow on me every episode.

Triple_R
2011-06-03, 13:12
I'm going to defend the handling of Menma the Ghost a bit.

For one, she does have the mind of a young, highly emotional, girl. So I can understand it taking her awhile to:

a) Realize she needs to put her emotions aside, and prove to everyone not named "Jinta" that she's really there.

b) Find a good way of proving just that.


In Jinta's case, I think that he himself was not 100% sure she was really there until this episode. I think he may have been afraid that if Menma tried to prove her actual ghostly presence, but was unable to, that this may confirm to him that, well, he's insane. :heh:

And many people with severe delusions/hallucinations don't want to accept that they're that far gone.


Also, Poppo was an easy believer so you didn't need to convince him much it seemed. The rest were skeptical, but very polite about it (except Yukiatsu). So perhaps there was a sense that there wasn't a pressing need to convince people that Menma was really there.


This sentiment is a little overblown, especially since Menma didn't show the waterworks this time.

I wasn't just talking about Menma, though she is (or rather was) a big part of it.

Anyway, I can just as easily say that your sentiment on Nagisa is a "little overblown".

Like Guardian Enzo said, to each his own.

Archon_Wing
2011-06-03, 13:23
Man. As for the whole Okada vs Maeda thing, I was clearly on the later side til now, but the gap has closed by quite a bit. As I've said before, I've never been too impressed with Mari Okada's work, though I should get around to Wandering Son. The main problem is that out of the biggest works I knew (True Tears, Toradora!, and lets throw in Haka Saku Iroha because that one actually kept me watching) is that Ano Hana has more likable characters than those 3 combined. Ano Hana is the first work I've seen of her that has worked for me completely. Characters with conflicts, characters that are interesting, and characters that interact with each other. And finally, characters that I could empathize with (aka I don't want to slap them all)

It's almost like she has written like she has never written before for Ano Hana. Or arguably anyone else has written before as if she were possessed by the Gods of writing themselves. I'd say she's in fierce contention with Uborochi for MVP of the year. :)

This episode wasted no scenes-- an example of perfect pacing. I haven't seen that since Aoi Bungaku.

Although it had been implied a lot before, it's not until now that it's outright said that they are all unable to get over their guilt. Menma's mom is still hit over this and stuck. Is there anyone that can move on?

The confession scene with Naruko and Jintan was nice (but what's with the shots of her ass?); it's just that now's not the right time. Unfortunate, really. Meanwhile Yukkiatsu's attempts at logic have finally collapsed and he can't put up with Jintan's shit. Well, who could?

So what can save them? Even if they could move on, they'll probably break apart as every time they look at each other they get reminded...

A miracle.

Brilliant Ending-- 10/10

totoum
2011-06-03, 13:46
Oh wow,that was my favorite episode since episode 1.

I didn't have a problem with Menma not showing herself because until now people were going along with what Jintan was doing even if they didn't all believe him,if they had never turned against Jintan I wouldn't have minded if she never showed herself,but with what was happening this week I really wanted her to make a move and she did!

But the scene that really got me was Hanaru's confession,Hakura Tomatsu went all out on that one,outdid her performance in cross game episode 50 and that's saying something.

Of course I've always liked Okada but I sill remain more of an Adachi fanboy,reading some of his short stories right now and I get blown away at nearly everyone of them.

And lastly,watching this episode in the middle of marathoning the original "cutey honey" series made for quite a mood whiplash.

Klashikari
2011-06-03, 13:46
I'm going to defend the handling of Menma the Ghost a bit.

For one, she does have the mind of a young, highly emotional, girl. So I can understand it taking her awhile to:

a) Realize she needs to put her emotions aside, and prove to everyone not named "Jinta" that she's really there.

b) Find a good way of proving just that.
Point a) is really weird if you ask me, because Menma is portrayed as much more level headed than she appears to be. Even though I really can't see her more than a "sympathic, but not empathic" cute character, often being as annoying as Index, she was shown as being sort of sharp and able to drop playing the dumb ball when the context is being serious.

b) is rather difficult to consider it as valid if you ask me: Menma was interacting physically with everything around her range, and it wasn't really that difficult for her to try things (cakes, and so forth).
She wasn't shown having an epiphany or anything and yet, she naturally used the phone in this episode.
The question is: why not sooner? If physical contact was really a issue, how about asking Jinta playing the "psychic"? It doesn't take a workload of brainpower to ask one of the SPB members to pick a sheet, write anything they want and make Jinta "guess" what they wrote, from 10 meters afar.
In Jinta's case, I think that he himself was not 100% sure she was really there until this episode. I think he may have been afraid that if Menma tried to prove her actual ghostly presence, but was unable to, that this may confirm to him that, well, he's insane. :heh:

And many people with severe delusions/hallucinations don't want to accept that they're that far gone. The problem is that Jinta never tried to ascertain the situation. Sure, it was alright for him that he though he was having hallucinations first, but the evidences themselves were piling up, yet he basically lived as if it was "natural" for Menma to lurk around.

In fact, Jinta was incredibly passive for anything non Menma related which makes me sympathetic towards Naruko, considering how incompetent he is with his flesh friends.

As much as Jinta probably had his lion share of issues, it is... well, difficult to understand why it took so many times for him to stand his grounds. In fact, his character and logic were crumbling for weird reason: he is the character who knows Menma the best and he is still actually witnessing what she is wishing, with not so subtle hints and "fun".
Which leaves to the biggest interrogation: Why not doing anything, especially after Yukiatsu's incident?


Both characters are the very basis of the SPB group, yet they were doing the least of the group, until now. I daresay that Tsuroko was infinitely more useful regarding Naruko and Yukiatsu.
And that is something that doesn't bode too well when we have the previous leader trying to fulfill the wish of someone else, and that very person fooling around, for the lack of better words.
Also, Poppo was an easy believer so you didn't need to convince him much it seemed. The rest were skeptical, but very polite about it (except Yukiatsu). So perhaps there was a sense that there wasn't a pressing need to convince people that Menma was really there.Honestly, I wonder if all the flashbacks and childhood talk wasn't for nothing during this "empty" period before this electoshock. In all seriousness, the gang became a group of teenagers trying to move on, but still completely stuck by the traumatic experience they got and the loss of a dear friend.
Even though things were crumbling, the obvious goal would be "everyone being friends again like before", yet neither Jinta or Menma were trying to spell out the issue in order to make everyone moving on.
You may say that it wasn't Jinta's goal to begin with, but since it is part of Menma wish, it has to be done. Meanwhile, Menma was portrayed as a very dedicated girls towards her friend, but for some reason, she just doesn't try to do anything about their problems and go happy go lucky until the boat is crashing into a very obvious iceberg, several times.

Well, I guess I'm being a bit nitpicky here, but that's all I wanted to bring out: I can't help but call that a plot hole, and the story itself doesn't really explain that, unless you want to ignore a huge chunk of characterization.

CWW
2011-06-03, 14:05
A great part of the drama between the Super Peace Busters was solely centred on Jinta "suddenly" bringing out Menma's existence to everyone else, without much explanations.
I don't need any science/magical explanation about Menma, nor the reason why she appears now and not later (although I would love to know why, still).
However, it is baffling to have the very mean of proving her existence from day 1, yet being denied because both Jinta and Menma weren't doing anything about that.

By itself, Menma's existence being proved doesn't solve everything (I never implied it so), however it -is- a solution (not "the" solution), since it will make everyone in the SPB group moving on at some point.
The solution itself would be okay if it was thought/introduced early on then denied for a "proper" reason. However, so far, color me strongly skeptical for a "proper reason" for any of the two not trying to at least explain things to the rest.

This is even worse with Yukiatsu and his deluded incident, but both Jinta and Menma didn't try anything. Is it too much to expect that bringing out "menma matter" would obviously hurt him?
Why does Jinta need to prove anything though? It's not like they were friends before Menma the ghost entered his life. It'd be pretty naive to think the SPB would be back to how everything was again. This episode shows he's convinced that it's his burden to bear.

Plus, the dynamic of the story would have changed considerably if he did went out of his way to explain the phenomenon. There wouldn't be much room for the inner minds and struggles of each character and would have instead revolved around the Menma of now.

There would have been more room for drama, but I'm not sure that'd have been the best route. I much prefer they focus on developing the characters to set up the drama for the last three episodes like they did now, than have drama every single episode.

Guardian Enzo
2011-06-03, 14:12
I think you're disregarding a couple of very important points of characterization that have been well established, Klashikari. First of all, simply because someone doesn't act on a suspicion or knowledge doesn't mean they aren't subconsciously aware of it. I think as regards Menma's wish fulfillment meaning her final departure, I personally believe both Jintan and Menma were aware of it - it was influencing Jintan's behavior especially - but more on a subconscious level.

Which leads into the second point, avoidance. Avoidance is a major component of the disorder pretty much everyone in the series is dealing with. Jintan practices it expertly, for what is being a hikikomori if not avoidance perfected to an art? His father practices it too, by allowing his son to be a dysfunctional member of society in the name of kindness. Anaru has carried a torch for Jintan since she was a child and never told him. Yukiatsu and Tsuruko have danced around their mutual feelings since they were Busters. And Poppo chose to deal with Menma's death and the breakdown of his social circle by leaving Japan altogether (or at the very least, dropping out of sight and creating an elaborate fantasy) and then returning to play forts in his childhood hideout.

Given all that, is it so hard to believe that Jintan and Menma would prefer to let the fantasy that they could be together play out by not confronting the reasons behind in - even if they both knew, intellectually, that it didn't make sense and couldn't last? Not to me.

Saturn Beaver
2011-06-03, 14:34
Like many others have said, this episode is indeed superb. I don't say that episode 2-7 are bad, but by the ending I finally get the feeling I first got when I first watched the ending of episode 1, and it's the moment I've been waiting for from this series. From the heavy moments like MenMom's breakdown, Anaru's anguished declaration of love, and the fight in the SPB, to the subtler moments like Jintan's talk with his Dad and Menma's little brother about the topic of family.

So, Menma finally try to show herself to the others, and like many I too thought this seems a bit late. I can buy the reasoning of Menma - the way I see her, she only wishes (not THE wish) for her group of friends to get back together again and doesn't mind just being a follower with just Jintan seeing her. In addition to that, she's afraid that if she shows herself and her wish is being granted, she'll disappear and abandon her friends again. It is only now when she saw the group is about to break apart due to her that she decided to show herself.

So, perhaps it's a bit late from Menma's end, but it's even more baffling from Jintan's side. Until the very end, it's Menma who shows herself and he wasn't even considering to prove Menma's existence to prove himself right. I could buy at first that he thinks she's just a hallucination and afraid that people will think he's crazy, but unlike Menma he's the one who saw first hand that by the others unable to see Menma it brings more problem than if they can see her. I suppose it's not impossible that he has his own reasons, but I really hope that it will get addressed now that Menma has shown itself and other people asking why didn't Jintan do this from long ago. Because if not, or if all Jintan can say is that he never thought about it, it will really hurt my enjoyment, to be honest.

Klashikari
2011-06-03, 14:52
Why does Jinta need to prove anything though? It's not like they were friends before Menma the ghost entered his life. It'd be pretty naive to think the SPB would be back to how everything was again. This episode shows he's convinced that it's his burden to bear. ...Why is he asking their help for Menma's wish then?
The issue with the whole group is obvious ever since many episodes: Menma's death is a major trauma for everyone, and Jinta is remotely aware of that. Ever since Yukiatsu dropped his bombshell, Jinta should realize that what are the implications with the advent.
Therefore, he has to prove it in order to solidify the bonds between all the members, and also justify his actions.
That's the natural course of action: would you follow someone "just because" or get explained that there is a major reason for bringing out some dead friend stuff all of a sudden?

Jinta's issue was pointed out by Naruko in this episode: that he is burdening himself way too much. However, it is an oxymoron, when the wish itself involve the "full group". Even though nothing can be the same as before, he perfectly knows that Menma wants to have the SPB as a single group back. Yet he is stubbornly shutting himself in his shell, which goes against Menma's very wish: not only it turns Jinta into misery she doesn't want, but also drift every SPB apart further and further.
Plus, the dynamic of the story would have changed considerably if he did went out of his way to explain the phenomenon. There wouldn't be much room for the inner minds and struggles of each character and would have instead revolved around the Menma of now. The fact it would change the dynamics doesn't really hold the water if you were to tailor things appropriately. If you want to keep the dynamics, then you can circumvent the idea with something else; that or NOT making Menma being able to affect physical stuff which would lead to a much more balanced setup and a "ghost ish" less dominant story. Of course this suggestion would not clear entirely the fact he could prove it from the get go, but at least it is less obvious than asking Menma eating something in front of the group.
There would have been more room for drama, but I'm not sure that'd have been the best route. I much prefer they focus on developing the characters to set up the drama for the last three episodes like they did now, than have drama every single episode.I never said they should make a drama for each episode. But I fail to see it would end this way if you were to avoid that plot hole. If you make such change, the story should be altered so that the execution can be retained.
At this point, allowing such execution because of a flawed premise isn't exactly the best writing you can have. That's why I separated the plot and the execution. And for good writing, I believe good execution -and- good plot has to be present. Having only 1 of the two is certainly not for the best.

I think you're disregarding a couple of very important points of characterization that have been well established, Klashikari. First of all, simply because someone doesn't act on a suspicion or knowledge doesn't mean they aren't subconsciously aware of it. I think as regards Menma's wish fulfillment meaning her final departure, I personally believe both Jintan and Menma were aware of it - it was influencing Jintan's behavior especially - but more on a subconscious level. The problem is that even with inner monologue, no such thing was hinted, unless I missed that. At this point, there is no evidence to ascertain or deny that point.
Which leads into the second point, avoidance. Avoidance is a major component of the disorder pretty much everyone in the series is dealing with. Jintan practices it expertly, for what is being a hikikomori if not avoidance perfected to an art? His father practices it too, by allowing his son to be a dysfunctional member of society in the name of kindness. Anaru has carried a torch for Jintan since she was a child and never told him. Yukiatsu and Tsuruko have danced around their mutual feelings since they were Busters. And Poppo chose to deal with Menma's death and the breakdown of his social circle by leaving Japan altogether (or at the very least, dropping out of sight and creating an elaborate fantasy) and then returning to play forts in his childhood hideout.Avoidance doesn't make sense when it involves an active quest of fulfilling Menma's wish.
Isn't that a contradiction? You state that he isn't so keen to prove Menma existence since it would be a step closer for her "disappearance", yet he is "actively" doing that alone.
Assuming he is truly not willing to let Menma disappearing subconsciously, he would hinder himself even more on a personal level "subconsciously" as well, which isn't the case. To the contrary, Jinta is pushing his own limits.
If Jinta is truely trying not to make Menma disappearing, he would actually remain as a mop and just play with Menma without giving much thought.
Given all that, is it so hard to believe that Jintan and Menma would prefer to let the fantasy that they could be together play out by not confronting the reasons behind in - even if they both knew, intellectually, that it didn't make sense and couldn't last? Not to me.I would certainly be okay if it wasn't for the whole wish thing. So far, Jinta was portrayed as a guy who just can't leave things as they are. Yet, he conveniently missed a fundamental point that was also painstaking for him as he was afraid of turning insane, yet he just didn't even try anything about that.
You have a dichotomic syndrome here that doesn't make much sense regarding his actions. Just as Saturn Beaver summarized, if that point isn't addressed, it is just a glaring issue regarding his intent all along.

Reckoner
2011-06-03, 15:02
@Klashikari

I think you're being too hard on Memma and Jintan regarding how soon they decided to try to tell everyone about her.

For one thing, the series began pretty much almost after Memma first appeared, and at this point of the show only like 3-4 weeks AT MOST have taken place.

Do you really except such lucidity in the character's minds? Jintan wants to ignore Memma's existence half the time. Memma herself is obviously confused about why she's there, and what she should do.

It was only after Memma saw how pained her friends were over these last few weeks that she perhaps decided to take matters into her own hands.

I mean how many episodes do you think it should've been for Memma to make such a decision and for what reasons would she go about doing it? How many days in the anime's time?

I personally appreciated that the anime didn't wait till the very end to address this and are addressing it 3 episodes before the last one.

totoum
2011-06-03, 15:12
What I find interesting about Menma is that even in this episode she still talks to people as if they can see her when by now she's aware that they can't.

Klashikari
2011-06-03, 15:12
This is also the reason why I didn't say they should have done it right from the get go (even though that solution was within their reach the very instant it started).

However, I'm still quite disturbed by the lack of actions or at least thought given to the situation after Yukiatsu's breakdown (yes I do mention it a lot, but surely, this was the first major crisis that could ring a huge alarm for everyone regarding Menma's impact (and thus mention of her name) to the whole group).
The sole mention of Menma drove Yukiatsu to some scary extreme, especially for teenagers who would think of this incident even more gross than what adults could say about that. And this is even more blatant when Yukiatsu was overly persistent with Jinta regarding that matter even before this episode. That alone was obvious that bringing out Menma all the time would piss him off big time, unless he is certain she is there.

Everything was centred over Menma, and how characters were obviously still mourning her death, to different levels. That's why the lack of concern regarding "trying to prove her existence" ticks me in the wrong way, especially when you have touchy people such like Yukiatsu and Tsuroko.

I don't expect any rational explanation for this part anyway (be it a writer oversight, or truly something that couldn't be elaborated by the characters), it is just something worth mentioning imho.

Guardian Enzo
2011-06-03, 15:17
My role in this aspect of the discussion is now over, as I don't see any further utility in it - never the twain shall meet on this one. No harm, no foul.

Reckoner
2011-06-03, 15:33
It seems this boils down to what you see as acceptable character flaws, much like the debates around Madoka.

Personally, I see 6 characters who are emotionally distraught and are not very open with their emotions to everyone.

I see Jintan who has a chronic avoidance issue when it comes to anything. I see Memma emotionally confused about what her point in existing is. She proclaims she has a wish she doesn't even know what it is. Jintan to give a little peace to his mind works towards fulfilling her wish.

In Jintan's mind he isn't even sure what Memma is and certainly has been avoiding asking her any questions about that. Again, he chronically avoids this issue. The other characters think he's crazy, but again he avoids the issue of proving them wrong.

So apparently only Memma can get them out of this rut. Could she see things were wrong with everyone? Sure. But the whole series seems to be structured so far as building up just how badly Memma's death has plagued our cast and how Memma comes to terms with what she thinks she should do. It seems episode 8 was the culmination of that (First time Jintan's broken down in front of her). Again, it was merely the span of a few weeks that they've been in this situation.

You seem to think the tipping point for decisive action should've been Yukiatsu's break down, but considering that Jitnan is our central character and he's the only one who talks to Memma, I consider his breakdown in episode 8 to be the much more logical tipping point.

CWW
2011-06-03, 15:40
...Why is he asking their help for Menma's wish then?
The issue with the whole group is obvious ever since many episodes: Menma's death is a major trauma for everyone, and Jinta is remotely aware of that. Ever since Yukiatsu dropped his bombshell, Jinta should realize that what are the implications with the advent.
Therefore, he has to prove it in order to solidify the bonds between all the members, and also justify his actions.
That's the natural course of action: would you follow someone "just because" or get explained that there is a major reason for bringing out some dead friend stuff all of a sudden?
Jinta did prove Yukiatsu by mentioning the hair clip. It's the latter's stubborn refusal to believe and his contempt for Jinta that prevented them from bonding, exemplified by faking his ability of seeing Menma. Jinta is not solely in the wrong here. And Jinta never asked for help. For the first wish, Poppo dragged him to Naruko to catch Nokemon, and for the second wish, Poppo and Naruko volunteered.

Jinta's issue was pointed out by Naruko in this episode: that he is burdening himself way too much. However, it is an oxymoron, when the wish itself involve the "full group". Even though nothing can be the same as before, he perfectly knows that Menma wants to have the SPB as a single group back. Yet he is stubbornly shutting himself in his shell, which goes against Menma's very wish: not only it turns Jinta into misery she doesn't want, but also drift every SPB apart further and further.
I'm not so sure that is Menma's wish in the end. She never explicitely said that's her wish. She wants everyone to get along and they did up until now, which is what forced the reveal. Methinks it's what people have been speculating: It has something to do with Jinta's mother. The constant flashbacks to her sickbed has to mean something, right?

The plot isn't black and white. There is no right or wrong on what the characters ultimately decide. That's what makes the story so interesting and captivating. Whether the decisions make sense or not isn't really relevant. The characters are largely driven by emotions. Tsuruko is the only one who seems cold and analytical, which hopefully next week will expand upon her side of the story.

Guardian Enzo
2011-06-03, 15:43
I'm with CWW on the wish - to the extent that there is a specific one, I'd bet it involved Jinta's mother. Where there's smoke, there's fire.

deadite
2011-06-03, 17:21
Hmm Jinta was going to tell Menma's brother something and then it cut away. I wonder what it was.

ThereminVox
2011-06-03, 17:51
We have just lost cabin pressure.

Was I the only one terrified when Menma showed up at the end that it was going to be her brother all dressed up? I wonder what Jinta said to him... thankfully it wasn't something ridiculous like that.

The confession was absolutely brutal. Anjou is tragically damaged by her guilt, and she's far from the only one. She deserves a happy end, bad.

The preview teases some Tsuruko development. I've been calling for it for 3 eps now, so don't make me look foolish again!

My poor Anaru though.. :upset: As long as Menma is hanging around Jinta, she doesn't stand...
*sunglasses*
... a ghost of a chance.

TinyRedLeaf
2011-06-03, 18:33
Amid all the angst, all the tears, all the drama, it suddenly struck me: Why is everyone so beat up over Menma in the first place?

I can understand her mother's anger, that the other children have grown up while her little girl didn't. But what was it about the circumstances of Menma's death that made every Space Buster feel so culpable about it? What have I missed? As far as I can tell, she died by accident. Yes, that alone could spoil anyone's rosy outlook on life, but to the point that they keep beating themselves over it with survivor's guilt, years after the event, for something they didn't directly cause?

Children, whose attention spans are usually so short that they can't remember much about what they did last week, let alone years ago? Why is Menma, in particular, so special that they still cling on to her?

As far as the show goes, I have not seen, till now, exactly why Menma was so influential to everyone in the group for her to matter so much to all of them. Even in the case of Jinta and Yukiatsu, I still don't know what so special about Menma for both of them to have had crushes on her instead of either of the other two girls.

Something just doesn't add up for me. It's a gaping hole that never quite got explained, much less filled up plausibly. Ah well.

Reckoner
2011-06-03, 18:49
Amid all the angst, all the tears, all the drama, it suddenly struck me: Why is everyone so beat up over Menma in the first place?


Jintan - The very last time he saw her, he was extremely mean and later felt guilty about it, wanting to apologize only to find out she died while out chasing him that day. He feels that if he never got mad, which he was already guilty about, she wouldn't of died. Now he's super guilty.

Yukiatsu - Didn't leave on bad feelings necessarily, but unrequited. After finding out she died, he felt he added even more stress and worry to her in the events leading up to her death. That's where the guilt stems from. Also the fact that his first love died doesn't help.

Anaru - She flat out told you her reasons this episode.

Tsuruko and Poppo have yet to be adequately explained.

As for if they were old enough to truly care... Well perhaps the answer may vary depending on the person, but these people grew up knowing these things that happened. Guilt doesn't immediately happen. It's something that builds up and festers inside of you. They've had 10 years of that going on.

As for why Memma is so influential? Well Anaru again is self-explanatory. We don't know Tsuroko or Poppo's reason, but Memma seemingly was the unifier of their group in the first place.

Yukiatsu and Jintan probably liked her because of her personality. I mean how rationalized does love even have to be? She's supposed to be this cute, air headed girl who makes them feel good themselves with her kindness. *shrug*

~Yami~
2011-06-03, 19:06
perfect... this is so perfect....
I don't get sleep in 24 hours straight due to my university's activity but after watching ep 8 I was not sleepy anymore
I never predict that Menma's mother will blame the gang about Menma... I think that she is a kind mother who already accept the reality but looks like that she is still same with the others.
Anaru's confession is another epic scene... Anaru took a wrong time but actually her confession is soooo saaadddd.... If I am Jinta, I will comfort and accept her feelings but looks like I shouldn't underestimate Jinta. He already had his own decision and I will see about his response maybe in the next episode
The last scene is the best part. It's actually a horror scene (I hate them) but it almost make me cry.... ugh! Somehow Anaru, Poppo, Tsuruko, and Yukiatsu burst out their feeling and Jinta is speechless. Menma's intervention is one of the most important part that I have waiting since the first episode... XD... And Menma just got the right time...!! Nice one, Menma! That cold call and diary book are really brilliant plans....!!!!!

Silverwyrm
2011-06-03, 19:10
My poor Anaru though.. :upset: As long as Menma is hanging around Jinta, she doesn't stand...
*sunglasses*
... a ghost of a chance.

Hahaha your stupid pun wins me over for today.

With that said, they will all have to move on, it seems that regarding menma's death everyone feels responsible for *something* which is why its still on their minds. It's like everyone thinks it's their own fault for a different reason, but really, its just how things go. When someone dies in an accident we can trace back all the things that could have been said or done even slightly differently, but in the end no one could have known or can really be blamed.

There is still hope for Anaru yet, just not at the current moment :)

Dr. Casey
2011-06-03, 19:52
Even in the case of Jinta and Yukiatsu, I still don't know what so special about Menma for both of them to have had crushes on her instead of either of the other two girls.

I found it a bit surprising at first that Yukiatsu liked Menma so much because she didn't strike me as the kind of person he'd care romantically for (Even the somewhat different childhood Yukiatsu was a pretty far cry from being like Menma in personality. Though I guess that having romantic chemistry with someone isn't a prerequisite for being interested in them), but she does seem compatible with Jintan, and personality types likes hers often get a lot of guys interested in them in real life. The outgoing, uninhibited type that sprinkle affection upon everyone often charm many people into falling for them because they make guys feel special and loved, and probably get more suitors than the aloof, intellectual types like Tsuruko, or even normalish girls like Anaru (Pre-skimpy clothing makeover, anyway). I don't think there's anything too surprising or unrealistic about two guys that spend a lot of time with Menma coming to like her (Especially since their relationship is already quite intimate to begin with, even as just a friendship); it's very different from, say, the typical harem scenario where half the protagonist's hometown is madly in love with him despite him being a pretty generic, nondescript guy. Hell, I think that if Menma didn't die as a kid, she'd have a lot more people after her than just Jintan and Yukiatsu.

Valin
2011-06-03, 19:57
Oh. Wow. This is... wow.

This here, this is good stuff. This is right up there with Maeda Jun's best. This is the kind of thing I've never seen in anime since "because it's the first thing Papa chose and bought for me".

I've missed anime like these for the longest time. :(

My thoughts exactly, ever since Clannad I've been waiting for an anime like this again

Ascaloth
2011-06-03, 21:08
So apparently only Memma can get them out of this rut. Could she see things were wrong with everyone? Sure. But the whole series seems to be structured so far as building up just how badly Memma's death has plagued our cast and how Memma comes to terms with what she thinks she should do. It seems episode 10 was the culmination of that (First time Jintan's broken down in front of her). Again, it was merely the span of a few weeks that they've been in this situation.


Wow, you watched Episode 10 already? Dibs on your time machine, Reckoner. :D

Anyway, for those claiming plot holes here... it's Okada Mari. Anyone who's seen True Tears at the very least, should know she has a habit of keeping her cards close to her chest until the last possible moment. There's still a good 3 episodes to go or so before the series ends, so I'm betting this will be where the remaining questions are laid out eventually. ;)

satomianzaki
2011-06-03, 21:14
wow really nice episode...so many revelations...

and nice reference there by jintan...i also liked the anime "dog of flanders"...its sad but a very good classic anime...

Reckoner
2011-06-03, 21:42
Wow, you watched Episode 10 already? Dibs on your time machine, Reckoner. :D


Oh my gosh I could've sworn I edited that out. Unfortunately I have no such time machine :heh:.

Forgive me, I am watching like double digit series right now, and I'm losing track of episode numbers in my head.

TinyRedLeaf
2011-06-03, 22:15
Jintan - The very last time he saw her, he was extremely mean and later felt guilty about it, wanting to apologize only to find out she died while out chasing him that day. He feels that if he never got mad, which he was already guilty about, she wouldn't of died. Now he's super guilty.

Yukiatsu - Didn't leave on bad feelings necessarily, but unrequited. After finding out she died, he felt he added even more stress and worry to her in the events leading up to her death. That's where the guilt stems from. Also the fact that his first love died doesn't help.

Anaru - She flat out told you her reasons this episode.

Tsuruko and Poppo have yet to be adequately explained.

As for if they were old enough to truly care... Well perhaps the answer may vary depending on the person, but these people grew up knowing these things that happened. Guilt doesn't immediately happen. It's something that builds up and festers inside of you. They've had 10 years of that going on.

As for why Memma is so influential? Well Anaru again is self-explanatory. We don't know Tsuroko or Poppo's reason, but Memma seemingly was the unifier of their group in the first place.

Yukiatsu and Jintan probably liked her because of her personality. I mean how rationalized does love even have to be? She's supposed to be this cute, air headed girl who makes them feel good themselves with her kindness. *shrug*

The problem I have is that it's only with Anaru that I can feel, as well as understand, her guilt over Menma, stemming from her having actually been pleased that she's dead, instead of being grief-stricken about the sudden loss. The reason Anaru's case works is that the series has focused quite a fair bit on her romantic feelings for Jinta, almost from the get-go: Her frustrations over liking a guy who just can't seem to get over a dead friend; her despair at seeing him sink further and further into a bottomless rut; her own episodes of naivete and vulnerability, which almost got her raped.

Is it any wonder, then, that she's among the most popular girl in the cast, if not the most popular? The show has done brilliantly, in my opinion, in developing her as a sympathetic character. Out of all of the Space Busters, she's the only one that I truly feel sorry for.

As for the rest of the cast, sure, we're given ample reasons for why they're all hung up over Menma. But that's just it: All we're given are bald assertions from the various characters. I just don't see enough evidence of why Menma mattered so much to either Jinta or Yukiatsu. Popo, well, he's mostly around for comic relief, so his motivations are only peripherally important at best. And Tsuruko is just being pulled along for the ride, with little to show for her supposed feelings for Yukiatsu.

It's just a lot of "tell", but very little "show". Hard for me to accept, therefore, that Menma was somehow so phenomenally important to all of them, crucial enough for all of them, not just Menma's mother, to get stuck in time, wishing to undo the chain of events leading to her death.

Basically, it comes to this: I broadly agree with Klashikari that while the execution of this show has been good (despite my inherently strong dislike for forced melodrama), the entire drama has been built on a flimsy premise, making the whole edifice far less effective than it should be. Menma is supposed to be this all-important catalyst that finally pushes everyone out of their funk, but I consistently fail to see evidence of this "special" aspect of her personality. On the contrary, she actually gets on people's nerves because of her constant indecisiveness, as Jinta angrily admitted an episode or two ago.

So, it's just plot contrivance, to me, that she has this supposed "magical" effect on other people. The characters claim it's there, but I don't signs of it, in the way I see the signs of Anaru's strong affection for Jinta. When it comes to Menma, the dramatic conceit just doesn't gel.

Little wonder then that I enjoyed episodes six and seven so much more than the rest of the show, since those were the only episodes so far that developed the rest of the cast as a whole, instead of obsessing over Jinta's inability to resolve his Menma "hallucination".

Forsaken_Infinity
2011-06-03, 22:22
I agree that the premise is flimsy and all the assertions feel contrived to begin with. But that still doesn't take away from the brilliance of the show. It does, however mean, and this is only my opinion, that this isn't really a masterpiece as some people are claiming. It's a very well executed show but the fact that the show has this iffy feeling about its premise can't be denied.

totoum
2011-06-03, 22:46
And Tsuruko is just being pulled along for a ride, with little to show of her supposed feelings for Yukiatsu.


The fact she still keeps and wears the present Yukiatsu wanted to give to Menma was pretty much all I needed to see.

Menma being "the center of attention" doesn't mean she has to impact everyone directly

right now I see it as:

Anaru---->Jintan---->Menma<-----Yukiatsu<------Tsuruko

It's like a domino effect,Menma's death sent both Jintan and Yukiatsu in dispair which in turn affected Anaru and Tsuruko

Though I don't know where that puts Poppo.

Guardian Enzo
2011-06-03, 22:54
It's been made pretty clear that Jintan (in addition to obviously liking Menma) feels guilt because he insulted her, which he believes led to her dashing off and meeting her presumably Wakaba-like fate.

TinyRedLeaf
2011-06-03, 22:58
Menma being "the center of attention" doesn't mean she has to impact everyone directly

right now I see it as:

Anaru---->Jintan---->Menma<-----Yukiatsu<------Tsuruko

It's like a domino effect,Menma's death sent both Jintan and Yukiatsu in dispair which in turn affected Anaru and Tsuruko

Which is why I asked, just what is it that both Jintan and Yukiatsu see in Menma? It's very telling that viewers have to invent their own reasons for this attraction ("Yukiatsu and Jintan probably liked her because of her personality"; "She does seem compatible with Jintan, and personality types likes hers often get a lot of guys interested in them in real life"). There is little direct proof, on screen, to show how Jintan and Yukiatsu came to be so strongly attracted to her. In contrast, there was ample proof of Anaru's feelings for Jintan from the very first episode, so much so that I didn't actually need her to admit how she really felt about Menma's death — her jealousy was so plainly obvious that her confession merely sealed what was implicitly known a long time ago.

Where, then, does the boys' romantic interest for Menma come from? It's just something we, as viewers, have to take at face value. That's hardly effective writing, in my opinion.

Reckoner
2011-06-03, 23:24
Where, then, does the boys' romantic interest for Menma come from? It's just something we, as viewers, have to take at face value. That's hardly effective writing, in my opinion.

So you're unable to see why they should care about her so much in the first place.

I guess laying out the plot that she was a dear friend they happened to have a crush on isn't enough for you to believe the sheer amount of guilt that her death placed on Jintan and Yukiatsu. I then do find it ironic that you're saying they are doing too much "tell" instead of showing, considering that you've convinced me of just the opposite right now :heh:.

I mean there have been tons of moments expressing how much Jintan cares about Memma, the way he looks at her sleeping or when was on the balcony of a previous episode. This seems to be more of a case of showing and not telling no? I guess what you might want is more flashback, monologue, etc.

I guess the difference for me is that it was never hard to imagine why she's such a central pillar of the group, considering her personality.

In the end, I think the show comes down to how much the nostalgia factor plays a role in your enjoyment. A lot of people had the premise hit home for them, but it wasn't convincing to you it seems.

Dr. Casey
2011-06-03, 23:33
Can't tell if my post's subtly being called dumb or not, but I don't think I'm making random assumptions there; they seem like logical extrapolations to me.

And I dunno, I don't think there's anything wrong with the story asking you to accept Jintan and Yukiatsu's feelings at face value. Menma has a strong enough personality that it should be easy enough to discern what Jintan and Yukiatsu liked about her, and they developed feelings for her because they spent a lot of time together and she was the kind of girl that appealed to them. That works for me. I'm not sure why there needs to be much more justification than that - maybe you could explain why you believe there needs to be clearly defined reasons or justifications for Character A to like Character B, and that just saying 'Boy A likes Girl A' without delving into the reasons behind said like is poor writing? That would probably help me to understand your mindset more.

Your last post confuses me a bit, though, since it feels like you're taking two different trains of thought in comparing Jintan's/Yukiatsu's feelings for Menma, against Anaru's for Jintan. You say that there's no explanation as to just why Jintan or Yukiatsu like Menma so much, then you go on to say that you think Anaru's feelings for Jintan are handled better because they're hinted at from the first episode. That seems like two different trains of thought to me (Judging whether the reasoning behind romantic feelings are properly explained vs. judging whether romantic feelings are properly foreshadowed before they're revealed). Seems like comparing apples and oranges a bit, though the misunderstanding's probably a mistake on my part. And I don't remember Anaru's feelings for Jintan being explained in any more depth than Jintan's or Yukiatsu's feelings for Menma, even if they're foreshadowed more clearly and earlier in advance; you're just told that she likes him, the end (Though you can of course assume that she was attracted to his leaderlike personality, that she didn't know anyone else that shared her hobbies, etc).

TinyRedLeaf
2011-06-03, 23:45
In the end, I think the show comes down to how much the nostalgia factor plays a role in your enjoyment. A lot of people had the premise hit home for them, but it wasn't convincing to you it seems.

Evidently so. :) As I've said, I have an inherent dislike for forced melodrama, and that's mainly what I see here. What's there to be sad about? I don't really "get" it. Lots of mawkish sentimentality, certainly, but very little in the way of hard-hitting grief, which is the kind of tragedy that really grips me.

Can't tell if my post's subtly being called dumb or not, but I don't think I'm making random assumptions there; they seem like logical extrapolations to me.
No, of course I'm not calling it a dumb post, though it might come across that way because my replies are strongly worded. My apologies for any inadvertent offence.

And I dunno, I don't think there's anything wrong with the story asking you to accept Jintan and Yukiatsu's feelings at face value. Menma has a strong enough personality that it should be easy enough to discern what Jintan and Yukiatsu liked about her, and they developed feelings for her because they spent a lot of time together and she was the kind of girl that appealed to them. That works for me. I'm not sure why there needs to be much more justification than that - maybe you could explain why you believe there needs to be clearly defined reasons or justifications for Character A to like Character B, and that just saying 'Boy A likes Girl A' without delving into the reasons behind said like is poor writing? That would probably help me to understand your mindset more.

I could name examples, but it's debatable whether the situations are directly comparable, since we'd be dealing with different stories with different premises. Not to mention the possible spoilers it would involve and the fact that discussing other anime here would be off-topic. Suffice to say, within the context of AnoHana, I find only one relationship to be well-developed so far: that of Anaru and Jintan's. Everything else requires me to fill in the gaps too often with my own imagination.

sayde
2011-06-04, 00:02
I'm a little embarrassed to have to this ask the following to you all. But I'm apparently too dense or clueless to figure this out for myself. And thanks to the end of this episode, I feel now's the perfect time to get some answers.

1.) Why hasn't Memma proven her existence before by interacting with matter in everyone's presence? Because from the way I'm seeing it, her being able to interact with matter is nothing new to her. And it's not like she hasn't had multiple opportunities to establish her presence in this way before. Is there some kind of ghostly limitation to this ability that I don't know about? Can she not interact with matter while people are looking in her direction? lol

I guess what I'm trying to ask is...why wait till now? Because I don't want to believe that this idea of interacting with matter in front of her friends to prove her presence only just occurred to her this episode.

2.) Question #2 is related to question#1. What was stopping Jintan from asking Memma to prove her ghostly presence/existence to their friends before now? Did he think that he was merely imagining Memma to be capable of interacting with matter this entire time? Did he assume people wouldn't be able to see her interact with matter even if he could (which makes little sense to me)? Or did he not want to expose Memma without her approval or something like that?

I feel the story writer already expected the viewers to understand the answers to the questions I just asked. But for whatever reason, it went completely over my head. And as much I'm liking this series, it's by far the most frustrating aspect of it for me--and it's preventing me from fully enjoying it as much as the rest of you all. So I'd appreciate anyone who's willing to shed some light on the issue. Because I just don't understand why Memma couldn't/wouldn't reveal herself before the end of this episode.

totoum
2011-06-04, 00:02
There is little direct proof, on screen, to show how Jintan and Yukiatsu came to be so strongly attracted to her. In contrast, there was ample proof of Anaru's feelings for Jintan from the very first episode



You're saying that on one side we have to take Jintan and Yukiatsu's love for Menma at face value but on the other the reasons for Anaru's love for Jintan are properly explained?
Is so there's something I don't follow in your logic:I don't see how the origin of Anaru's love for Gintan is explained either,her jealousy is a consequence not a cause.If you want to know why she likes him so much that she's this jealous you also have to " invent your own reasons".

Raiga
2011-06-04, 00:10
This isn't so much about AnoHana; it's just that one of the scenes reminded me...

Ever notice how people always go somewhere else, usually a park or tea shop, when they have to talk? They NEVER have their conversation where they meet. I'm just trying to imagine in real life, running into someone on the street, "Oh hey, we need to talk. Mind walking for ten minutes to the nearest tea shop, settle down, place our orders, and then discuss it?" Not just in anime; it was during a J-Drama that I first noticed this trope. I swear it happens all the time.

... yeah I was reminded of that by Jinta and Menma-otouto. Still enjoying, still don't have much else to say... ^^;;

Tempester
2011-06-04, 00:30
I learned to stop worrying about Menma proving her existence after the 3rd episode or so. It's an acceptable break from plausibility for me, like how most people accept temporal paradoxes in time travel stories. Besides, the excellent drama and characterization that transpired in the last 8 episodes has more than made up for that 'problem'. By the time Menma finally did reveal herself, I was surprised since I was so absorbed in the plot that I didn't expect her to drop the bomb at that moment.

This episode was so heavy with plot, full of not one but several emotional explosions, yet it didn't feel the least bit rushed. This was perfection of pacing on the same level of Madoka Magica's episode 10. And as for the drama, it was just as good as it was in the rest of the series: awesome.

This isn't so much about AnoHana; it's just that one of the scenes reminded me...

Ever notice how people always go somewhere else, usually a park or tea shop, when they have to talk? They NEVER have their conversation where they meet. I'm just trying to imagine in real life, running into someone on the street, "Oh hey, we need to talk. Mind walking for ten minutes to the nearest tea shop, settle down, place our orders, and then discuss it?" Not just in anime; it was during a J-Drama that I first noticed this trope. I swear it happens all the time.

... yeah I was reminded of that by Jinta and Menma-otouto. Still enjoying, still don't have much else to say... ^^;;

It's possible that they don't want to bother others with their issues or drama, thus they have special places for certain conversations. Imagine two teenagers having a heated dramatic argument in the front of a busy store or something.

Irenicus
2011-06-04, 00:45
...I...wow...this episode. It hits and it doesn't stop.

First it was Menmama's revealing her broken self, then Anaru's all or nothing guilt-driven confession, then it's Jinta's finally breaking down, hard, and Menma intervening at last, showing her tearless, quiet, encouraging smile that encapsulates everything about her feelings for her friends and why she once came to mean so much to everyone.

Flawless. Just...flawless.

guuchan
2011-06-04, 01:02
Damn it.

Damn it that the show is clearly going for "Menma is a ghost that really exists" direction. Not that I mind, 'cause damn it they did such a good job this episode that I feel the show can end pretty well this way, even though I thought hallucination would serve the show better.

Damn it that the episode is so powerful. How many times have I used that word in this series' forum now? Without any overdramatic element, without any forced climax, this episode did it again. I might be exaggerating, but I think this show will become a role model for some future dramas to come.

About Menma's mom: am I the only one who see that she was obviously doing it to the kids on purpose, so that they would stop "messing around"? If she hated them that much, if she really couldn't pass up anything of her beloved daughter as Satoshi implied, why would she give them her diary? So that the kids could do something silly to provoke herself after reading it? Either way, at least we know for sure now it's Menma's dad who stopped the firework guy, which fits his image as appeared in the earlier episode.

This sentiment is a little overblown, especially since Menma didn't show the waterworks this time.

It's not like Menma is crying over every little thing like a spoiled child and the times she does it's for understandable reasons. She doesn't know why she's here (though she's slowly starting to recollect her memories), she sees people suffer because of her, plus the fact that she can cease to exist at any time must be on her mind.

It's funny. I couldn't watch Clannad anymore at some point, because it was so dreadful to watch Nagisa being helpless and useless in general. Thankfully, Menma is trying her best to overcome her fears and make amends. If that will mean she goes to heaven, leaving everyone behind, then so be it. She's starting to grow on me every episode.

Word. Rep. Can't agree more. CLANNAD got a much bigger budget comparing to other animes adapted from Key games, that's why it appeared better, but it's really not that great. Poor AIR should get a remake; it has a much better and impactful story. Or even the rumored would-be-adapted-into-anime Tomoyo After is more dramatic than CLANNAD. The heroines of both shows, Misuzu and Tomoyo, are much better comparative figures than Nagisa imo.

sayde
2011-06-04, 01:21
I learned to stop worrying about Menma proving her existence after the 3rd episode or so. It's an acceptable break from plausibility for me, like how most people accept temporal paradoxes in time travel stories. Besides, the excellent drama and characterization that transpired in the last 8 episodes has more than made up for that 'problem'. By the time Menma finally did reveal herself, I was surprised since I was so absorbed in the plot that I didn't expect her to drop the bomb at that moment.

Okay...so does this mean I'm not completely crazy to question the things I did? And is it generally agreed upon that viewers of this story are supposed to abandon plausibility on this particular issue in order to better enjoy the plot?

Irenicus
2011-06-04, 01:41
^This show is, to an extent, utilizing magical realism. You just accept it, because the plausibility isn't about physical logic, as would be the case for a proper hard sci-fi, but in the humans populating the story.

That said, it *is* the duty of the author(s) to convince you to just accept it, by subtle tones, by focusing on the more important things, and sometimes simply by ignoring the "logical question" altogether. Consequently, readers have various levels of response to magical realist techniques. It didn't even cross my mind that it was "unnatural" when, for example, I was reading One Hundred Years of Solitude and it rained continuously for seven years. I was far, far too absorbed to care. I suspect some other readers might be more "aware" and complain about such an implausibility.

Likewise, in AnoHana the only reason I even "think" about the questions you and many others raise is because people keep discussing and complaining about it so much; left alone I would have -- and I actually do -- accept it unconditionally as part of the magical realist conceit. She will reveal herself in the decisive moment, or maybe not at all, and that's all that needs to be said.

And of course this episode proves that the moment has already been well planned by the story's writers, with extraordinary results. It couldn't have been handled better.



TL;DR no you're not crazy or alone. My personal recommendation however is simply not to think about it.

Solace
2011-06-04, 01:52
Okay...so does this mean I'm not completely crazy to question the things I did? And is it generally agreed upon that viewers of this story are supposed to abandon plausibility on this particular issue in order to better enjoy the plot?

I think the issue is, that the audience has the ability to look at the entire story and pull at the parts in a critical and analytical manner, while the characters typically do not. We have the "birds eye" view of everything, and we get breaks between episodes to collaborate, read, and digest everything.

It is a logical leap for us to wonder why none of the characters ever thought about trying to prove Menma's "realness" as a ghost, but I don't think it was the intention of the story to leave that impression, or to go down that route unless it had to. Episode eight, and the others before it, strongly imply/show that no one really believed Jintan, and probably wouldn't have believed him right away either. Even Poppo was mainly doing it more to help Jintan than having an actual belief that Menma was real. The timing of her "reveal" works here because it's the point where all the doubt of the cast is pushed to the surface, not just about Menma, but everything else surrounding their relationships with each other.

I realize that won't be good enough for some people, because they do not like the ghost angle and/or how it is used in an otherwise serious drama.

And yes, I say serious drama. There's a sentimental/nostalgic feel in the atmosphere of the show, but the characters wrestle with some complicated things. I can relate to Menma's mother's depression, her son's loneliness, Menma's father having her stuff packed so he's not reminded as much of her death, Anaru's long crush/love for Jintan, Yukiatsu and Jintan's crush/love for Menma, the way the show gives us a look at parent/child relationships, etc.

This may sound like high praise, and maybe it is. I can understand why others might feel otherwise though.

Triple_R
2011-06-04, 02:06
Episode eight, and the others before it, strongly imply/show that no one really believed Jintan, and probably wouldn't have believed him right away either. Even Poppo was mainly doing it more to help Jintan than having an actual belief that Menma was real.

I have to disagree. Poppo specifically stated, with Jinta nowhere around, that he "believes in Menma". Menma herself overheard that.

So I think it's pretty clear that he really does believe that Jinta's Menma is real, and he sincerely believed Jinta.

I found his easy acceptance of Jinta's story to be a bit too easy, but it is what it is.

In fairness, it's probably good for at least one character to take a less skeptical viewpoint in order to provide balance to the cast.





I realize that won't be good enough for some people, because they do not like the ghost angle and/or how it is used in an otherwise serious drama.

Why does a ghost angle make an "otherwise serious drama" less serious?

"Serious" has an entirely different meaning from "believable".

"Serious" is a question of mood and tone, moreso than believability.

Gundam is frequently very serious, but it's not always easily believable even then.


Calling something "serious drama" doesn't strike me as "high praise" in and of itself. It's simply a genre classification, imo.

But yes, Anohana is appropriately put under that genre classification.

Anh_Minh
2011-06-04, 02:56
Well, it's good that the elephant in the room's finally been dealt with. Now maybe they can move forward from a common basis instead of wondering if Jinta's just crazy, or attention whoring, or whatever.

sayde
2011-06-04, 03:23
It would seem then, that the fault lies with me--mainly in part for approaching this series with completely wrong expectations. Because I'll admit, I went into this show with certain feelings and impressions of what I thought the show was about, where I thought it was going, and how things were going to be resolved. One of those things I thought would eventually be explained was Memma's presence (or rather the lack of it) to everyone but Jintan throughout most of the series if it had turned out that Memma was indeed not simply a mental construct of Jintan's mind. I was hoping for a clever explanation as to why Jintan or Memma didn't bother to try and prove her presence to even someone like Poppo (who's undoubtedly proven to be the most understanding and accepting of Jintan on the issue). And to an extent, part of me is still hoping for such an explanation now that the plot has established Memma is indeed a ghost.

I think the issue is, that the audience has the ability to look at the entire story and pull at the parts in a critical and analytical manner, while the characters typically do not. We have the "birds eye" view of everything, and we get breaks between episodes to collaborate, read, and digest everything.

It is a logical leap for us to wonder why none of the characters ever thought about trying to prove Menma's "realness" as a ghost, but I don't think it was the intention of the story to leave that impression, or to go down that route unless it had to.

That's a valid point to a degree. But since you're on the subject (of us vs them), I have to admit that the issue in question is something I felt has been blatantly apparent from the very beginning of the series IMO--almost as if this was an intentional issue they were going to make logical sense of sooner or later. In other words, I didn't have to look at each episode after the fact or from a critical viewpoint or spend timing picking it apart to wonder why the issue of Memma's presence was handled so awkwardly up till now. Perhaps it's my fault once more for attempting to watch this show from a 1st person perspective. Because it's an issue that's hard to ignore if you have a tendency (like myself) to ponder what you would do or how you would feel throughout some of the various events that have occurred to this point. And to that extent, it would've been nice if the story writers could've provided just a little something to make Jintan & Memma's decisions/reactions (regarding the issue in question) a little more believable to people like myself--especially since the story does take itself rather seriously for the most part. Because putting myself in either Jintan's or Memma's place, I still can't think of a reason why none of them even once tried to come up with some kind of a subtle experiment to prove how real Memma truly is to rest of the world. I would think between the both of them, one of them would want to know what the deal was much earlier on. And I know if I was in that situation, it'd be among one of the very first things I'd try and figure out. To top it off, there's plenty of very simple ways Jintan or Memma could've proved it (ways that didn't necessarily have to make Jintan look insane if it failed, especially with someone like Poppo for a friend).

In closing, I apologize if the above came off as a rant. It wasn't meant to sound that way. Truthfully, the last few posts have really shed some informative insight on the issue, making it easier to move on and forget about it. I'm content simply knowing the issue clearly isn't limited to being my problem alone.

deadite
2011-06-04, 03:33
Anyone try to count how many days have passed in Anohana? The first few episodes seem to be successive days.

Haak
2011-06-04, 04:32
I think the reason Jintan didn't try to prove Menma's existence is because he thought it was just a hallucination at first, but after Yukiatsu's jackassery, he realised that it IS unfair for only him to be able to see Menma and no one else, especially Menma's mother. So he didn't want to essentially prove that he was more special to Menma than the others. After all, the others were all clearly hurt from Menma's death aswell and never fully recovered.

CWW
2011-06-04, 05:12
It's getting a bit Death Notey in here, in the sense of overanalyzing the plot.

Unlike Death Note however, this show doesn't have 37 episodes to work with. It has to do with less than 1/3 of the time. In that sense, it's only natural to leave explanations out. If you think about it, it's unreal how the writers use every ounce of available time to stuff in one episode. This episode alone, they managed to add, what, six impactful scenes, all of them with different characters? I suppose they could have spared a little time at the beginning to add a comical experimentation of Menma's workings as a ghost, but that's the only way it would have worked: a comical, throwaway scene. Not a scientific, long ass approach ala Death Note.

Personally, I never like stories that spell it out for you instead of using your imagination, but hey, horses for courses.

katsudon
2011-06-04, 12:56
this series was not really my cup of tea, this type of genre...but after i started episode one today due to being recommended.... i'm completely wrong about my earlier assessment of lack of good series this season.

this series is a masterpiece.

Solace
2011-06-04, 13:00
I have to disagree. Poppo specifically stated, with Jinta nowhere around, that he "believes in Menma". Menma herself overheard that.

So I think it's pretty clear that he really does believe that Jinta's Menma is real, and he sincerely believed Jinta.

I found his easy acceptance of Jinta's story to be a bit too easy, but it is what it is.

In fairness, it's probably good for at least one character to take a less skeptical viewpoint in order to provide balance to the cast.

Perhaps it's because I took a different meaning from his words. To me, it felt more like he was saying "I believe in the Menma Jintan believes in", not that he actually believed that she existed. At the end of the episode he's in shock and disbelief just like the others....did she really write that? His expression wasn't one of elation, "I knew it, Jintan was right!", instead he acts like everyone else. Perhaps that is more to the shock that Menma can actually interact with stuff, than a question of his belief, but that's how I interpreted his actions.

You are right though, it is good to have at least one less skeptical viewpoint. I think Poppo played a big part in helping Jintan get everyone back together.

Why does a ghost angle make an "otherwise serious drama" less serious?

Much like your Gundam example, an otherwise serious setting can cause problems with immersion when something occurs that disrupts that, in effect ruining the atmosphere. For some viewers, that something isn't a big deal, but for others it can be too much.

I've seen people post about how they can't understand the praise the show is getting and directly tie that into Menma's personality and her "uniqueness" as a ghost as a major reason why they don't think the show is as good as people are saying.

Irenicus makes a good point about Suspension of Disbelief (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspension_of_disbelief).

It would seem then, that the fault lies with me--mainly in part for approaching this series with completely wrong expectations. Because I'll admit, I went into this show with certain feelings and impressions of what I thought the show was about, where I thought it was going, and how things were going to be resolved. One of those things I thought would eventually be explained was Memma's presence (or rather the lack of it) to everyone but Jintan throughout most of the series if it had turned out that Memma was indeed not simply a mental construct of Jintan's mind. I was hoping for a clever explanation as to why Jintan or Memma didn't bother to try and prove her presence to even someone like Poppo (who's undoubtedly proven to be the most understanding and accepting of Jintan on the issue). And to an extent, part of me is still hoping for such an explanation now that the plot has established Memma is indeed a ghost.

I won't lie, I had those thoughts too, when the show first started. I dropped those ideas once I realized the show wanted to focus more on the living than the dead. Menma is cute and all, but (and I'm sure someone else has mentioned this) she's really just an obvious plot device. Her only real importance to the story is to give it direction. The story would probably work as well (some might argue better) if she was just a memory instead of an actual ghost.

Perhaps it's my fault once more for attempting to watch this show from a 1st person perspective. Because it's an issue that's hard to ignore if you have a tendency (like myself) to ponder what you would do or how you would feel throughout some of the various events that have occurred to this point.

I certainly understand and can relate to this viewpoint. I've done it myself before. Over the last few years I've begun to put a distance between what I would do and what the characters would do though. I do entertain the ideas, and yes I have wondered why Menma wasn't "proven" earlier, but I also look at reasons why it hasn't happened in the story. For example Haak offers one reasonable explanation, which is that Jintan wasn't sure himself if she was a ghost or a hallucination. The group has also just recently come back together and it isn't like they're best of friends anymore, there's some strong rifts between them. I'm not sure, at least initially, that anyone would have believed Jintan if he and Menma tried to prove she was real.

Anyway, I try not to let the perfect be the enemy of the good. There are some odd story decisions (why stop at the first thing in the diary, and not read the whole thing?), but at the same time I find myself so engrossed in each episode I don't really think about such things until afterwards, usually when others point it out.

Kaioshin Sama
2011-06-04, 14:55
Based on a hunch that sprung from my watching about 5 minutes of this show at Anime North a week ago and not being immediately put off I decided to give this show a whirl. It was a bit of a rough start, but my goodness did this get good fast. It's finally happened, I've finally found a Slice of Life TV series I actually like again. The first since Welcome To The NHK. I've gone over in my head why this must be the case and come up with several reasons as of finishing this current episode 08 which I feel it's important for myself to lay out somewhere:

1. AnoHana has a strong emphasis on good drama and character development as opposed to wacky high school antics forming the backbone of the series appeal. I can't help but feel that if this show weren't a noitaminA and/or were done by a different studio/team like say Kyoto Animation or Shaft that this series would have instead been about the group as children doing their Super Peace Busters thing and that the emphasis would be on cute kids doing cute things instead as they go about their childhood. Also probably all of them but Jintan would have been female if that.

Now while a popular medium and perfectly valid way of drawing interest from others, that sort of formula I listed above does little to nothing for me personally, and I've come to feel that it has come to define the Slice of Life genre a little too much over the past several years. As such I've been aching for some good drama and to get both Colorful and this show in the same year is something I consider a blessing. No idea if I'm seeing a return to form for the Slice of Life genre as I knew it (drama being the emphasis over comedy), but it gives me hope and if not I'm grateful to get at least 2 hits to go with all the misses I've been experiencing. I was about to give up on the whole idea of a Slice of Life genre that could do anything for me, but here we are with reason number 1 this show has been a hit with me.

2. Likeable and interesting and in some cases very complex characters. What's this? High schoolers who actually behave like high schoolers instead of elementary schoolers? You mean I'm going to be able to relate to these characters in some way other than how I relate to my kid cousin who is 10 and already more mature than your average anime high schooler? Is this a joke?

Thankfully it's not and it's also nice to see characters that grow not only from past to present (as we see how different everybody is in both eras as a result of Menma's death) but in the present as well. I'm kinding of liking the role reversal of Jintan and Anaru over the last couple episodes for example. I also dig Yukiatsu's character and how he's been unveiled and want to see where he's going because he seems so conflicted and lost right now for someone who on the surface you'd think has it all going for him. Interesting characters are absolutely critical to good Slice of Life in my eyes and it's also imperative that they be defined by a clear personality yet still have some room for development. I find a lot of modern SOL series tend to try and define their characters through the gags they participate in and how those gags play off of other characters and I don't see that as valid character development or something that is going to get me interested in the cast. Thankfully AnoHana avoids that pitfall and that's reason number 2 why I find it to have been a hit with me so far.

3. Good pacing, writing, dialogue. Usually an 11 episode anime is a warning sign for me telling me to stay away because there is nothing to be seen and whatever does transpire will not amount to much because by the time you get into the show it'll all by over. Somehow AnoHana manages to make such good use of it's limited runtime that I was completely invested in it by episode 3. This I owe to the strong writing and mature dialogue and not wasting any time with any sort of unnecessary antics or wacky comedy that as I said above I feel plagues the SOL genre these days. When you maximize your time you have the greatest chance of generating and maintaining interest. Too short and you fail to get an audience before it's all over. Too long and you give the feeling of a show being drawn out and lose your audiences interest over time. So far this show gets it just right, and that's reason number 3 why this show has been a hit for me.

4. A strong opening and ending theme. Nothing gets me into a show faster than a show with a strong opening and ending to set the right tone. Thankfully the person in charge of OP/ED directing is someone who realizes that you don't need dancing in your opening and wacky visuals in your ending to draw in an audience, you just need a good song that ties into your theme, and looking at the lyrics of AnoHana's opening and ending they really couldn't have done much better. Both themes are pretty chill yet pensive in their own way and neither too loud nor too earshredding as some of them tend to be. You don't need to have gimmicks in your intro/outros, you just need visuals that give you a sense of what the show is about and what the characters are like and you need to set tone, and AnoHana handles this simple notiong very well and that's the final reason why I believe this show has been a hit for me while so many others have missed before it.

As for the most recent episode, the fact that they established early on that people were recognizing weird stuff happening around Jinta and objects moving on their own was adequate preparation for the fact that there really is a ghost in this case. How they handle it from here will obviously make a big difference, but given how things have gone so far I don't see much reason to worry about something like Menma getting magicked back to life coming along and ruining the otherwise grounded nature of the series. I can allow for magical elements in my show as long as they are pre-established and foreshadowed to an acceptable degree from the get go, and I feel that AnoHana has already long since taken care of doing just that.

Also the fact that there's a brother in the equation now who feels neglected by his mom who only pays attention to Menma's altar adds an interesting new layer into the series. I can already see him playing a big part in all this and have to wonder if Menma's wish is not for him to cease being neglected and for her mother and friends to get past her death. That seems to be the only logical conclusion at this point. Lastly knowing exactly how Yukiatsu was going to handle the whole cold call thing and Jintan's answers to it with the threat of violence means that I've come to understand his pretty complex character to a startling degree. I love it when that happens. Another strong episode and I'm anticipating the next. Though if I had one complaint it's that there was a little too much crying in this episode and again it's centered around Anaru. Maybe her character is a little more melodramatic then I would have liked.

CWW
2011-06-04, 15:05
I do entertain the ideas, and yes I have wondered why Menma wasn't "proven" earlier, but I also look at reasons why it hasn't happened in the story.
Try to put yourself in Menma's shoes. What would she gain from revealing herself? She wanted to stop the infighting in the group, that was clear, but what would her reason be for revealing her existence immediately from the start? Realizing her wish? She doesn't know what her wish is or why she's even here. Get the group together like in their childhood days? It'd be quite delusional to think everything will be the same again, especially since Menma knows she's not among the living anymore. Even if it had worked, wouldn't it be wrong to think the group only got together because of her?

Then there are a few subtle hints, like how she thought that by being close to people would make them sad like her mother, as seen in Naruko's room. That she stays in Jinta's house for most of the day instead of bothering him by following him around and grab unwanted attention. Like I said earlier, Menma is a strong person, stronger than one would believe. She acts cheerful and innocent in front of Jinta, but she's actually considerate and thoughtful. She wants to help Jinta overcome his issues foremost, which is why there had been speculation that her wish involves Jinta's mother and she's merely a messenger.

Archon_Wing
2011-06-04, 15:20
Also the fact that there's a brother in the equation now who feels neglected by his mom who only pays attention to Menma's altar adds an interesting new layer into the series. I can already see him playing a big part in all this and have to wonder if Menma's wish is not for him to cease being neglected and for her mother and friends to get past her death. That seems to be the only logical conclusion at this point. Lastly knowing exactly how Yukiatsu was going to handle the whole cold call thing and Jintan's answers to it with the threat of violence means that I've come to understand his pretty complex character to a startling degree. I love it when that happens. Another strong episode and I'm anticipating the next. Though if I had one complaint it's that there was a little too much crying in this episode and again it's centered around Anaru. Maybe her character is a little more melodramatic then I would have liked.

That was a lot of good insight. :) Ano Hana's strength is that people act like people and doesn't excessively try to pander to anyone.

But yea Yukiatsu's descent into threatening violence really shows how far his character has fallen ever since Jintan starting mentioning he can see Menma. Yukiatsu's a bright person that is generally really logical, but from his point of view he just sees Jintan as taking it too far and it will not stop. Basically, the pain won't stop either. The last few episodes have really shown him breaking down in a rather realistic fashion.

And while we have that guy felt like he was overlooked in favor of Jintan, we now have Menma's brother who feels like he was always overlooked in favor of Menma now, not to mention Anaru's own frustration that Jintan still places Menma first.

It's a messed up world where even after all these years, they remain frozen in time.

Reckoner
2011-06-04, 15:29
1. AnoHana has a strong emphasis on good drama and character development as opposed to wacky high school antics forming the backbone of the series appeal.

I totally agree with you. It's the show's main draw for me. Too many anime these days get caught up in comedy hijinks for many episodes straight and then randomly slap you across the face with some sort of drama.

wtfATOM
2011-06-04, 23:40
Am I the only one who gotten mad at Menma for a few seconds when Yukiatsu and everyone was bitchin' at him to stop with the menma shit. I thought wtf why isnt she doing anything. BUT the end was nice. I was like Oh.. she was writing in the diary. Good shit. :thumbsup:

Qaghou
2011-06-04, 23:50
I see this show like a realistic point of view of life when we lose someone important to us. For myself, I did lose my parents in 2009 and I can easily see what the characters are feeling.

In my theory, if Jintan is the only one who can see Menma is that they've a special connection and a ''thing'' who isn't completed between them. I feel like those two have to be honest to each other and tell the other their feelings. They didn't be able to do it in the past and now, Menma's next to him to do it for good. I really hope that Jintan will be able to tell her the truth.... I hope to see a kiss between them before she disapears.

You're talking about the parents responsabilities. As a mother, I can tell that I raise my daughter in a way that she will be able to make her choices in life. I think that the dad of Jintan was doing a good thing with his son. He lets him free to make him see the impacts of his own decisions and he don't make feel heavy the lost of his mother. I really think that parents aren't perfect but they really do their best to their child like the Jintan's dad.

For Nanaru's confession, I was touched by it but I understand very much the reaction of Jintan. He loves Menma same if she's died. You know, he can see her right now same of that. He will never be able to forget her just like that 'cause she was his first love and a very strong one. I really think that he will feel more happier when he will confess for good to Menma and not be afraid of his feelings for her anymore.

For the futur episodes, I hope to see more developments between the characters and I really want to see what happen when Jintan ran away (when he was a child) and when Menma ran to join him. Right now, we know that she droped into the river to death but what happen between the moment those two were running away ? In which moment Menma died in this ? I want to understand it more clearly. I'm a big fan of two ! :D

Mr.Garfield
2011-06-04, 23:59
I'm i the only one who feel emotional at the scene when Jintan's dad removes his hat?

Arabesque
2011-06-05, 00:32
I don't really anything more to add that hasn't already been said, other than loving this episode to the point where I had actually cried by the end of it.

That being said, I agree with Klashikari and TinyRedLeaf that there were a lot of questionable writing in this episode, but I honestly didn't mind them because of how good and powerful the rest of the episode was.

It's something that I learned from watching enough anime that Maria Okada had a hand on. You need to take the good with the bad to enjoy the whole. Okada has quite a haphazard style, so there is going something sacrificed in the writing department to make something else better. This dawned on me while watching Hanasaku 9 and having watched this episode it only cemented that theory. So the writing might be suspect, but it didn't lessen any of the impact this episode had on me.I'm i the only one who feel emotional at the scene when Jintan's dad removes his hat?I cried like a little girl.

-Sho-
2011-06-05, 09:00
So finally Menma did it. Pretty good episode , i didn't feel the emo though maybe cuz i'm tired today..

foxnaught
2011-06-05, 09:51
So finally Menma did it. Pretty good episode , i didn't feel the emo though maybe cuz i'm tired today..

I felt more relief than anything. "It's about damn time"

SkoolRumble4Ya
2011-06-05, 12:33
Yup finally Menma show herself. Now they can all stop saying how crazy Yadomi is.

Triple_R
2011-06-05, 14:06
Perhaps it's because I took a different meaning from his words. To me, it felt more like he was saying "I believe in the Menma Jintan believes in", not that he actually believed that she existed.

I kind of see what you're saying, in fairness, but Poppo strikes me as a more straightforward guy than that. But who knows, I could be mistaken about him.

My own view is that, by all outward appearances, Jinta has consistently acted as though the Menma he's talking to and seeing is real. So if Poppo believes in the Menma that Jinta believes in, then Poppo believes that she's real.




At the end of the episode he's in shock and disbelief just like the others....did she really write that?

Even when a person sincerely believes in something, there can be a sense of surprise when that belief is unexpectedly confirmed.

For example, many people sincerely believe that there is sentient alien life out there, but many such people would likely be shocked if such an alien just showed up at their doorstep one day to give a message directly to them (and that's not terribly unlike what Menma just did here).

I think that shock at unexpected confirmation (which Poppo may have no longer expected due to numerous failed attempts to reach Menma) is much of what causes Poppo to be surprised at Menma's sudden appearance.




You are right though, it is good to have at least one less skeptical viewpoint. I think Poppo played a big part in helping Jintan get everyone back together.

I agree with you here.




Much like your Gundam example, an otherwise serious setting...

I see what you're saying here, but I think there's a danger in equating "serious" with "realistic".

Consider The Lord of the Rings, for example. It is not realistic (in the sense that it has many fantastical elements). It's high fantasy. It's also very serious.

I don't think that its fantastical elements takes away from the quality of its serious drama.


Now, fantastical elements need to be used carefully in a drama, I think. So if they're used in a way that feels "off" to people, that can cause issues, yes.


But in any case. Anohana is a serious drama, in my view. It's also a very good one, I think.

Keriaku
2011-06-05, 17:02
I have to say that the last scene of this episode with the diary was the first time I've ever been tearing up and smiling at the same time. This series is beautiful.

Echoes
2011-06-05, 17:31
This episode was, without the slightest hint of exaggeration, the best episode I've seen in years.

I can't break down why it was such a fantastic experience, but I'll compliment it the only way I know how. I cried so much at the end of the episode.
I didn't get teary-eyed; I cried, full tears running down my cheeks and eyes left a fiery crimson. For a show to evoke such an incredibly powerful emotional response from me, it's doing something very right. Words fail me, but the ones that come to the forefront of me mind is "thank you."

achirist
2011-06-05, 18:43
I really didn't like Jin-tan in this episode at all; the way he just walked away from Anaru without saying anything when she broke down, his moralistic, unsupportive comments to Menma's brother (when no, it is NOT justifiable for his parents to neglect him and enter their own little emotional cocoon of greif when they still have a child who needs their support) and generally stupid plan of working 24/7 to build fireworks when they don't even know if that is her wish. I can understand why everyone was fed up with him at the end of the episode; he is so empty. But, personally, after the last scene, I wouldn't really be that convinced of Menma's existence if I were them. It isn't so clear cut; it's not like she walked across the room with the book in her hands.

CWW
2011-06-05, 19:06
Might I suggest using your imagination?

blakstealth
2011-06-05, 20:03
I teared up at the last scene. I haven't teared up on anything in months lol.

Great episode.

broken270
2011-06-05, 20:22
I am sure that I do not need to add on from what most of you said, being that she finally did something to make her existence notable and that this is probably one of the best anime in existence. I really teared up in the last part where, as soon as Yukiatsu, Anaru, and Tsuruko were in their heated state, and Jinta was crashing down, Menma just dropped everything right there. It was just ... tear jerking. I do not know how else or what else to say there. This was a really good episode. Menma's mom breaking down, Anaru confessing, everything about it. It was just ... great. I am speechless.

Guardian Enzo
2011-06-05, 21:24
I remain astonished at how popular this series is, and pleasantly so. No real moe, not much action, virtually no sex and an even balance of male-female characters without romance on the front burner. Yet it's doing superbly in pre-sales and boffo on all the ratings sites. Thank you, NoitaminA, for staying the course for quality - this is your reward!

Master Chibi
2011-06-05, 23:14
Clannad doesn't belong anywhere near this show, even as a comparison.

I mean you can say this show does super natural because of Menma, but the REAL meat and potatoes of the story is how the whole cast is dealing with what happened to her that day, not Menma her self.

Clannad had some retarded ass plot that revolved around not pissing off the town or some other shit, like it was a rejected script for Twilight Zone episode.

As for the people saying that they finally broke Menma in too late, this show isn't about her, it's about everyone that she was friends with. They haven't actually developed Menma since the show started. All we know is that she's dead, she loved to hang out with everyone, and she doesn't know why she's hovering around Jin either. Every other character in the show has had some very serious development given to them, especially in regards to this last episode.

Clannad was boring up until the end of the first season, and then went down the shitter until they got to Ushio in season 2. Even then the show felt more like it was slapping you around then actually telling a story.

I actually care for everyone in this show. Even Jin's father, Menma's mother, her brother, everyone. I want to see how everyone has been dealing with Menma's death. Clannad just had me wondering who else they would kill off just to make it a 'better story' or more 'tragic'.

guuchan
2011-06-06, 01:31
A very straightforward comment on CLANNAD. :heh: I already made mine in my previous post so not going to repeat.

Anyone noticed the impliation of the scene showing Honma house's doorplate right before the OP song? Menma's mom naturally wants to keep Menma's name there, but what about Menma's dad? If he wanted, I'm pretty sure Menma's name would have been removed. Keeping a deceased person's name on the doorplate would just invite unpleasant questions. As much as he tried to act tough, he just wanted Menma's mom to move on, but how much has he himself "moved on", comparing to Jinta and others? Something interesting to think about.

Kaioshin Sama
2011-06-06, 01:41
Clannad doesn't belong anywhere near this show, even as a comparison.

I mean you can say this show does super natural because of Menma, but the REAL meat and potatoes of the story is how the whole cast is dealing with what happened to her that day, not Menma her self.

Clannad had some retarded ass plot that revolved around not pissing off the town or some other shit, like it was a rejected script for Twilight Zone episode.

As for the people saying that they finally broke Menma in too late, this show isn't about her, it's about everyone that she was friends with. They haven't actually developed Menma since the show started. All we know is that she's dead, she loved to hang out with everyone, and she doesn't know why she's hovering around Jin either. Every other character in the show has had some very serious development given to them, especially in regards to this last episode.

Clannad was boring up until the end of the first season, and then went down the shitter until they got to Ushio in season 2. Even then the show felt more like it was slapping you around then actually telling a story.

I actually care for everyone in this show. Even Jin's father, Menma's mother, her brother, everyone. I want to see how everyone has been dealing with Menma's death. Clannad just had me wondering who else they would kill off just to make it a 'better story' or more 'tragic'.

Count me as one who also feels this show is light years ahead of Clannad so far. Considering only 3/4 of an arc in Clannad/After Story did anything for me (about 3 episodes) and that this show has been very good to excellent since the start of the 3rd episode at least (about 6 episodes and counting now) though that's not really a surprise.

I think it helps that the strong cast of this show is always around and is the heart of the story whereas the cast in Clannad seemed to operate on a revolving door and characters would disappear for stretches at a time simply because it wasn't their "arc". I frankly don't like that style of adaptation at all where it feels to much like they are trying to recreate a visual novel feel verbatim as opposed to adapting a screenplay for a TV anime format. I prefer a natural feel and flow like AnoHana has had so far where it feels like it's in the proper format and running at a pace that is fit for said format.

I remain astonished at how popular this series is, and pleasantly so. No real moe, not much action, virtually no sex and an even balance of male-female characters without romance on the front burner. Yet it's doing superbly in pre-sales and boffo on all the ratings sites. Thank you, NoitaminA, for staying the course for quality - this is your reward!

These are actually other reasons why I think I took such a liking to this show when other slice of life shows have failed to reach me so frequently in the past. It doesn't really feel like this show is made for any specific niche in particular so much as anyone who is capable of taking notice of it. You don't have to be into moe to enjoy this show, you don't have to be into sexy character designs to enjoy this show, you don't have to be into romance to enjoy this show, you don't have to be into all female casts to enjoy this show....you just have to have an appreciation for strong likable characters and good old fashioned drama. I mean this is kind of like the type of anime I fell in love with way back in the early 90's as opposed to a lot of the stuff these days that feels a little too niche for me at times. It feels like strong character drama is making a comeback of late too and god help me I hope I'm right about that.

Guardian Enzo
2011-06-06, 01:54
These are actually other reasons why I think I took such a liking to this show when other slice of life shows have failed to reach me so frequently in the past. It doesn't really feel like this show is made for any specific niche in particular so much as anyone who is capable of taking notice of it. You don't have to be into moe to enjoy this show, you don't have to be into sexy character designs to enjoy this show, you don't have to be into romance to enjoy this show, you don't have to be into all female casts to enjoy this show....you just have to have an appreciation for strong likable characters and good old fashioned drama. I mean this is kind of like the type of anime I fell in love with way back in the early 90's as opposed to a lot of the stuff these days that feels a little too niche for me at times.

I think you're right about all that - but that's exactly why I'm shocked it's so popular.

It feels like strong character drama is making a comeback of late too and god help me I hope I'm right about that.

I hope you are, too! I guess that's the Occam's Razor explanation for why this show is a hit. But I'm hard-pressed to think of any shows in this vein that have been really popular lately, so color me pleasantly shocked by AnoHana's success and skeptical (but hopeful) that it represents anything more than an aberration.

Pellissier
2011-06-06, 01:56
Before it goes too far, please remember, move to the generic thread with series overall impressions and comparisons with other shows. This thread is for episode 8 only.

HurricaneHige
2011-06-06, 02:08
It has taken me quite a long time before writing about AnoHana...first off, lemme say this, this episode was pretty good, but for a leaky faucet like me I did not even shed a tear. It was emotional, it was powerful, but it was...lacking?

The anime overall had caught me from the get-go, it was an interesting anime because it was something so simple. It was a fairly realistic representation of a circle of people deeply affected by a tragic death. This episode is a very good example of this...a realistic example of a bunch of formerly closed friends tied together loosely by a 'ghost', until their little adventure struck too close to home and breaking up the weak ties they had. The only difference is that Menma actually exists, but only the viewers know that, until now. I've seen a few posts here, and on some blogs stating that revealing Menma was a bad writing mistake, or that Menma should have revealed herself from the get-go if she could, and taking her this long is just plain bad writing. I have to disagree with the above viewpoint, and I will state why:

Think deep about Menma's purpose for a second...she wishes to have a wish granted, that is the base premise. From the surface it seems like the fastest way to do so is reveal herself, right? Now think about this from Menma's point of view, ignoring the wish part. By stepping into Jinta's life, she effectively brought the Peace Buster back together. She stated multiple times that she really love seeing how everyone's back together. So, is it possible that Menma is not revealing herself on purpose, in order for the living to trust one another again? A lot hinges on the gang's trust on Jinta, so if the group can trust Jinta's Menma without her revealing herself, then isn't it better from Menma's point-of-view? Of course, after it all fell apart this episode the only thing left to do is to reveal herself to reestablish the trust.

I purposely ignored the wish part because to Menma it was never really part of Menma's concern, even though it was her only means of existence. It was evident when Popo tried to talk with Menma about her wish, she was distressed over the topic as she had no idea what she was actually there for, and also likely that she hasn't given much thought into it while she got the gang back together. Thus, I would argue that you should leave that part out when thinking from Menma's point-of-view, and her delayed revelation of her presence, in my opinion, makes a whole lot more sense. Also adding to that was Menma's own understanding of her presence's disturbance. Menma had explicitly stated that she did not want to show herself to her mother or Anjou because it would make them sad, indicating that Menma herself was well-aware of some, if not all, character's regret/guilt towards her. This awareness likely added to the above point, and Menma would not have revealed herself until she had no other choice...mainly because her mother decided to drop the nuke on the group.

Now from the plot's viewpoint, the show isn't really about Menma, similar to what Master Chibi said. I would argue that Menma hasn't changed at all since episode one until this one, where she seemed to have received some clue about Jinta's mother, or maybe even a direct glimpse about her wish perhaps. Anyways...that's off on a tangent. To me...this anime is a realistic story about the lives of a circle of people, like I said at the beginning of my post. These people all held regrets, even guilt, over the death of a very close friend, or family. Each episode we see the characters as they try to face or exorcise their own demons about the incident. That is what made the show interesting. If this show was really just about a ghost coming back and asking for a wish, many of us would have dropped this recycled plot of an anime long ago.

I have more to say, but I'm too tired to think.

Gohan78
2011-06-06, 09:03
My two cents about Menma's reveal scene: I think it happened too late. I hate it when a solution is crystal clear to the viewers but the characters in the show just don't get it. It means that the characters are dumbened down for the sake of the plot. This is a flaw in an otherwise excellent series.
For comparison, one major criticism to MadoMagi was that the girls never asked Kyubei if it was possible to simply wish away all of the witches. Without spoilering the answer, the question should have been asked.

The reasons presented in this thread as to why Menma didn't reveal herself before seem unconvincing to me.
1. If I could reluctantly accept that Menma is so naive that she didn't even think of showing herself to the others, I have difficulty reconciling this fact with the ending of episode 5, when Menma was clearly frustrated that she couldn't appear before Poppo.
2. Even if Jintan initially thought that she was a figment of his imagination, the muffins already prooven that this isn't the case. Unless you want to argue that Jinta made the muffins himself, but he never seemed that insane.
3. Having proof of the existence of Menma's ghost would greatly benefit their cause, since it was evident that the other SPB (maybe with the exception of Poppo) were just playing around with Jinta's "delusions". Yukiatsu vehemently protested against this very notion and Tsuruko straight out told Jinta that she didn't believe in his Menma.
There was no reason to hide her existence.

HurricaneHige
2011-06-06, 11:01
My two cents about Menma's reveal scene: I think it happened too late. I hate it when a solution is crystal clear to the viewers but the characters in the show just don't get it. It means that the characters are dumbened down for the sake of the plot. This is a flaw in an otherwise excellent series.
For comparison, one major criticism to MadoMagi was that the girls never asked Kyubei if it was possible to simply wish away all of the witches. Without spoilering the answer, the question should have been asked.

The reasons presented in this thread as to why Menma didn't reveal herself before seem unconvincing to me.
1. If I could reluctantly accept that Menma is so naive that she didn't even think of showing herself to the others, I have difficulty reconciling this fact with the ending of episode 5, when Menma was clearly frustrated that she couldn't appear before Poppo.
2. Even if Jintan initially thought that she was a figment of his imagination, the muffins already prooven that this isn't the case. Unless you want to argue that Jinta made the muffins himself, but he never seemed that insane.
3. Having proof of the existence of Menma's ghost would greatly benefit their cause, since it was evident that the other SPB (maybe with the exception of Poppo) were just playing around with Jinta's "delusions". Yukiatsu vehemently protested against this very notion and Tsuruko straight out told Jinta that she didn't believe in his Menma.
There was no reason to hide her existence.

Now I'm wondering if you deliberately ignored my reasons listed above...or you simply were too lazy to read the wall-o-text.

Proto
2011-06-06, 13:14
Personally, if anything else, this episode and the way Menma revealed herself only reinforced my belief that Menma is a hallucination from a highly, highly dellusional Jinta. And that Jinta is a freaking unreliable protagonist POV. :p

Why, if not, Menma chose such an indirect way to reveal herself?

SwiftStrike
2011-06-06, 13:31
this ep made me hope for a happy ending, or an emotional one (probably).

ZGMF-X10A
2011-06-06, 14:35
Is there a reason why Menma is not showing people that she is there? e.g. pick up the cup in the secret base? Menma is only eating, making bread when no one is around of when Jintan is the only person around.

Master Chibi
2011-06-06, 14:57
She doesn't know why she's around to begin with. The girls is dead for fuck sakes, why are you all uppity about 'when the right time is to reveal yourself' or 'why didn't she do it sooner'? Have any of you ever died, and then suddenly come back as an apparition ten years later, only to realize you don't know why you came back, why only one person can see you, and what you should actually be doing?

I doubt it.

Klashikari
2011-06-06, 15:03
That's no reasoning at all: Menma wasn't really showing any gloomy behaviour whatsoever. Albeit she doesn't know the purpose of her presence right now, she definitely put that in the background and focus entierely on Jinta and their friends.
Regardless if she wanted to do that or not, she arguably didn't try to hide her presence at all (she never asked Jinta to hide her presence, and she definitely indulge herself as hugging people and do things for them).
And of course, you can't expect people to have the exact same circumstances, but that's no valid argument at all.

In fact, the way the show was faring about Menma was actually not so "obvious" that she is dead, considering her presence, behaviour and actions taken.
That's one of the few issues with the premises: even if Menma is indeed dead, her role in the series is hardly that one of the deceased.

While Jinta's reasons may be more or less explained, Menma was definitely not shocked and basically went on the flow of things, without much afterthoughts, until matters regarding her family or disparity between the group members arise.

Master Chibi
2011-06-06, 15:19
That's perfect reasoning, because you're not Menma, there's no guidebook on how you should be a freaking ghost. How are you going to get upset over the fact that one of the first things the ghost of a dead friend from a decade ago that they inadvertently killed wants to do is see how her friends are, or to indulge herself? Is she supposed to walk around shaking heavy chains, opening and closing doors behind people, or making their curtains wave when there's no wind? At this point it's an assumption that she needs a wish fulfilled to 'pass on', isn't it?

Seriously I can't understand why people are upset over this.

cyth
2011-06-06, 15:55
I didn't read the thread until now because, honestly, the episode left me cold for the most part. I blame Menma's mum for breaking down at the beginning of the episode, as I just wasn't able to take it seriously after that hilarity. The ending scene reminded me so much of Madoka's 10th episode because I knew everyone would have something to say about it. However, unlike in Madoka's case, I was expecting an overwhelmingly negative reaction rather than a positive one. Colour me surprised, guys.

My two cents about Menma's reveal scene: I think it happened too late. [...] This is a flaw in an otherwise excellent series.This, right there. I, too, was rooting for something else other than the ghost theory, but I came to accept it and AnoHana's supernatural flavor quite early on in the series. What was once a simple plot device that would set a course for Super Peace Busters to resolve their past issues has morphed into a deus ex machina, which is something I don't like seeing in contemporary storytelling.

In fact, I think that it would be so much more rewarding if they could find another way for them to settle their differences, rather than supernatural intervention. True friendships are often born after such intense conflicts, but I guess the show isn't aiming for reconciliation, but rather the demise of this little group of old friends. Most of them realized that Super Peace Busters wasn't much of a group without Menma, so the writers thought it would be a good idea to introduce a ghost of a dead girl to act as a replacement for the real thing. :eyespin:

The Super Peace Busters are as dead as the dead girl, I'm afraid.

Master Chibi
2011-06-06, 17:22
That's the entire point though, SPB died the moment Menma died, this show is more about how they're dealing with it / are trying to than the act of bringing them all together to be a group again.

We still don't know why Menma's hovering around Jinta, or why she's around period, let alone whether the necessity of 'fulfilling her wish' will actually do anything. It adds an air of mystery to the show that works quite well imo.

HurricaneHige
2011-06-06, 18:36
I didn't read the thread until now because, honestly, the episode left me cold for the most part. I blame Menma's mum for breaking down at the beginning of the episode, as I just wasn't able to take it seriously after that hilarity. The ending scene reminded me so much of Madoka's 10th episode because I knew everyone would have something to say about it. However, unlike in Madoka's case, I was expecting an overwhelmingly negative reaction rather than a positive one. Colour me surprised, guys.

This, right there. I, too, was rooting for something else other than the ghost theory, but I came to accept it and AnoHana's supernatural flavor quite early on in the series. What was once a simple plot device that would set a course for Super Peace Busters to resolve their past issues has morphed into a deus ex machina, which is something I don't like seeing in contemporary storytelling.

In fact, I think that it would be so much more rewarding if they could find another way for them to settle their differences, rather than supernatural intervention. True friendships are often born after such intense conflicts, but I guess the show isn't aiming for reconciliation, but rather the demise of this little group of old friends. Most of them realized that Super Peace Busters wasn't much of a group without Menma, so the writers thought it would be a good idea to introduce a ghost of a dead girl to act as a replacement for the real thing. :eyespin:

The Super Peace Busters are as dead as the dead girl, I'm afraid.

Honestly, high school kids aren't really equipped to deal with a mom that breaks down in front of them about a dead friend, let alone high school kids who all have regrets/guilt over said dead friend AND some who thinks the whole wish thing was a charade. After what basically constitute as a 'nuke' to said fragile group's trust, i don't see another way to re-establish said trust without Menma involved. Did the writers back themselves into a corner? Yes I think so. Would it be cool if Jinta came up with a miracle way to regain trust? Yes I think so. Was their 'out' poorly written? No, I don't think so. Menma's delayed revelation can be explained if we look back on certain events that happened before. Although I highly doubt they laid the foundations specifically leading up to the end of ep8 (If so, we should be praising such brilliant writing), but possible reasoning of Menma's delayed response is not completely out-of-character and far-fetched. Which is why I dont believe you can say it's poorly written. At the same time, it was a predictable response after what happened in the first half of ep.8, so I can't say it was brilliant writing either.

Kirarakim
2011-06-06, 20:34
She doesn't know why she's around to begin with. The girls is dead for fuck sakes, why are you all uppity about 'when the right time is to reveal yourself' or 'why didn't she do it sooner'? Have any of you ever died, and then suddenly come back as an apparition ten years later, only to realize you don't know why you came back, why only one person can see you, and what you should actually be doing?

I doubt it.


LOL the one thing that no one can relate to on here.

Well unless there is a ghost that is following this thread. You never know! :p

foxnaught
2011-06-07, 01:34
Well unless there is a ghost that is following this thread. You never know! :p

We'll know if we start getting blank posts in this thread :p

Gohan78
2011-06-07, 03:37
Seriously I can't understand why people are upset over this.

If Menma just took a freaking glass of water and made it float mid-air in the secret base, they could have avoided a lot of conflict and worked together to find out what her wish was, instead of fighting with each other. I hate when the characters are beaten with the stupid stick for the sake of drama.

Spoonroo
2011-06-07, 04:16
I think many of the people complaining about the late reveal forget that Menma died when she was 10. She still acts like she's 10. Just think abut that for a moment.

Heck, I'm a teacher. You wouldn't believe all the things that it wouldn't occur to a 10 year old to do without being explicitly told by a parent or teacher. Not to mention the fact that they called her an "airhead" which implies it more.

Let's not forget the scenes of her watching her family and her mother over her shrine, and when she was in Anaru's house - those two scenes seem to explain why, with the mindset of a 10 year old airheaded girl, why she wouldn't show herself. wanting to lessen the sadness of her mother.

I don't see WHY the idea of making some glass float in the air would have occured to her to do. Most of the times that the group showed signs of not believing Jinta outright she was not there for (she tended to stay at home while jintan was out) and Jintan never told her about stuff like that, so how would she have been aware of that? Even the scene when she was trying to get Poppo to see her, he wasn't doubting her existence - none of them were outright saying it yet - and even if there were non verbal cues she's an "airhead" 10 year old, so I wouldn't expect her to notice that. Notice that immediately after she was aware (when she heard Poppo on the phone) what did she do. Immediately try to get the others to notice her, like people are saying she should've. She tried to call them (Yukiatsu and Tsuruko, which I though was a very interesting choice) on the phone, remember. It didn't work, obviously, but she the point is that tried ASAP after a reason existed. Also, hat's how she got them to join, remember, when they were kids - she called them to the clubhouse, so it makes sense that that would be what she tried first.

I like the diary too because she could actually convey a message - it's a way she can talk to them. it makes sense with why she tried to telephone. She wanted to communicate with them. Doing some lame Scooby Doo trick like floating a cup or dumping flour on her does not fit with the serious vibe of the show, and does not let her speak to the others. Even when she tried to communicate to the others, it's always by talking - that's how 10 year olds like to communicate, with words. and I'm glad they did something deep like using the diary - using that item was great. Also, since it was in her handwriting, there's no way it could've been explained as a magic trick or something Jintan set up to trick them, which is probably what Yukiatsu would've said if they had gone the Saturday Morning Cartoon route (float object, dump flour) to try to get her to prove her existence.

And most of all, SHE'S A GHOST. If people don't have a problem with that, why are they having problems with such a slight thing as "she should've made herself appear when the series started" (which in its timeline was what? a week ago?) What's going to be the next? "Why did she wait for 10 years to reappear in front of Jintan? Why not immediately after she died? why not the next day? why not 1 month? why not 1 year? whay this random day?"

I don't think that stuff matters, honestly.

I just don't see the complaining I guess. It's a ghost story. Where's the suspension of disbelief?

In other news, this show is AWESOME! and I especially love the OP and ED, songs and visuals. even the colors of the ED, the way that the girls all close their eyes before the song swells...I love how they don't let the ED's visual interrupt the story, letting it start at the point the story allows it to.

Reckoner
2011-06-07, 04:17
If Menma just took a freaking glass of water and made it float mid-air in the secret base, they could have avoided a lot of conflict and worked together to find out what her wish was, instead of fighting with each other. I hate when the characters are beaten with the stupid stick for the sake of drama.

Doesn't drama require people being beaten with the stupid stick. If people always acted logically and without emotion, then there wouldn't really be any problems would there?

farios
2011-06-07, 06:25
I've been following this anime for this 2 weeks, and i have to say...i love this show it's full of emotional moments and didn't waste any time with some useless scenes. The characters are written nicely and actually realistic. This is exactly how Angel Beats supposed to be. Looking forward for the next episode

Myssa Rei
2011-06-07, 06:39
I gave this episode an 8. That's already high praise coming from me.

Sebasu
2011-06-07, 08:09
Did Yukiatsu made an account and voted for 1? :heh:

miketyson
2011-06-07, 14:27
My evaluation: I gave this episode a 10 b/c it got me excited about the series. After episode 7 I still *liked* the series but it seemed like the show was heading for a very "small" scope; after episode 7 in particular it like lots of doors had been closed, narrowing the range of possibilities for what was to come. Episode 8 moved quickly -- and believably -- and by the end it seemed top open up a lot of possibilities, an now the show seems "big" again.

My forward-looking reaction: this show has trolled us before (in a good way, like with the diary), so there's no reason to believe everyone is going to really believe in Menma's existence in the next episode; for all we know they're going to turn around and say "BS!" right as episode 9 beings. The writing is very careful to *not* have Menma reveal her existence in a truly airtight way -- there's still ways in which she could be being faked right now -- and it wouldn't surprise me at all if some of those loopholes get pointed out before the end of the series.

foxnaught
2011-06-07, 15:29
Doesn't drama require people being beaten with the stupid stick. If people always acted logically and without emotion, then there wouldn't really be any problems would there?

No, it's doesn't. However, I was thinking about this today and realised that having the characters act logically and realistically would require the writers and directors to put far more effort into their stories and it probably wouldn't fit properly in a 11 or 12-episode series, or wouldn't fit with what they wanted to do with the series, hence the characters' 'duuuuh-ness'

Reckoner
2011-06-07, 16:24
No, it's doesn't. However, I was thinking about this today and realised that having the characters act logically and realistically would require the writers and directors to put far more effort into their stories and it probably wouldn't fit properly in a 11 or 12-episode series, or wouldn't fit with what they wanted to do with the series, hence the characters' 'duuuuh-ness'

Great argument you made there. I'm astounded by your reasoning and deductive skills. Bravo. :rolleyes:

I'll say it again.

If people act completely logically and without emotion, how does drama even happen? There is no story then. The characters would know not to get stuck here with their emotions. The characters would solve these problems instantly. So doesn't drama require people being beaten with the stupid stick to some degree?

And I would say that considering this show has spanned merely a couple weeks and the emotional trauma some of them are under (Though some question whether there really is such emotional trauma to begin with, which is fine), then it's no real surprise that it's taken just this little bit for the culmination of emotions to occur this episode.

Archon_Wing
2011-06-07, 16:31
My two cents about Menma's reveal scene: I think it happened too late. I hate it when a solution is crystal clear to the viewers but the characters in the show just don't get it. It means that the characters are dumbened down for the sake of the plot. This is a flaw in an otherwise excellent series.


I'm a bit confused on how you came to this conclusion or even this assumption in the first place. The audience has way more knowledge of the situation then any of the characters could possibly have. Whether it be that they are unable to find out or aren't in the right mind to find out, it doesn't mean they are stupid. The audience is supposed to figure it out before them in these cases. If they figured it out before the audience could within reason, then they better have an explanation...

Characters, like people, do not have perfect photographic memory. They certainly don't write everything down, nor can they just go through flashbacks at will like we can. Nor would they constantly spend every day thinking of every minor detail

Also, considering that most of the cast probably thought that Jintan was delusional, there's a bias. And Menma isn't exactly the brightest, being dead and all... and we have no idea how others perceive supernatural events.

Anh_Minh
2011-06-07, 16:31
Great argument you made there. I'm astounded by your reasoning and deductive skills. Bravo. :rolleyes:

I'll say it again.

If people act completely logically and without emotion, how does drama even happen? There is no story then. The characters would know not to get stuck here with their emotions. The characters would solve these problems instantly. So doesn't drama require people being beaten with the stupid stick to some degree?

And I would say that considering this show has spanned merely a couple weeks and the emotional trauma some of them are under (Though some question whether there really is such emotional trauma to begin with, which is fine), then it's no real surprise that it's taken just this little bit for the culmination of emotions to occur this episode.
Let's forget the "emotionless" bit (what does that have to do with anything). Bad things happen even to people who do everything "right". Our fate isn't as much under our control as we'd like to think.

I think many of the people complaining about the late reveal forget that Menma died when she was 10. She still acts like she's 10. Just think abut that for a moment.

Heck, I'm a teacher. You wouldn't believe all the things that it wouldn't occur to a 10 year old to do without being explicitly told by a parent or teacher. Not to mention the fact that they called her an "airhead" which implies it more.

Let's not forget the scenes of her watching her family and her mother over her shrine, and when she was in Anaru's house - those two scenes seem to explain why, with the mindset of a 10 year old airheaded girl, why she wouldn't show herself. wanting to lessen the sadness of her mother.

I don't see WHY the idea of making some glass float in the air would have occured to her to do. Most of the times that the group showed signs of not believing Jinta outright she was not there for (she tended to stay at home while jintan was out) and Jintan never told her about stuff like that, so how would she have been aware of that? Even the scene when she was trying to get Poppo to see her, he wasn't doubting her existence - none of them were outright saying it yet - and even if there were non verbal cues she's an "airhead" 10 year old, so I wouldn't expect her to notice that. Notice that immediately after she was aware (when she heard Poppo on the phone) what did she do. Immediately try to get the others to notice her, like people are saying she should've. She tried to call them (Yukiatsu and Tsuruko, which I though was a very interesting choice) on the phone, remember. It didn't work, obviously, but she the point is that tried ASAP after a reason existed. Also, hat's how she got them to join, remember, when they were kids - she called them to the clubhouse, so it makes sense that that would be what she tried first.

I like the diary too because she could actually convey a message - it's a way she can talk to them. it makes sense with why she tried to telephone. She wanted to communicate with them. Doing some lame Scooby Doo trick like floating a cup or dumping flour on her does not fit with the serious vibe of the show, and does not let her speak to the others. Even when she tried to communicate to the others, it's always by talking - that's how 10 year olds like to communicate, with words. and I'm glad they did something deep like using the diary - using that item was great. Also, since it was in her handwriting, there's no way it could've been explained as a magic trick or something Jintan set up to trick them, which is probably what Yukiatsu would've said if they had gone the Saturday Morning Cartoon route (float object, dump flour) to try to get her to prove her existence.
You can always doubt. Handwriting isn't that hard to fake.

But I generally agree with you. Sure, she acted sub-optimally, which I guess is where the complaints come from. But that's realistic: people act sub-optimally all the damn time.

Reckoner
2011-06-07, 16:37
Let's forget the "emotionless" bit (what does that have to do with anything). Bad things happen even to people who do everything "right". Our fate isn't as much under our control as we'd like to think.


Yes, a fucking meteor can crash down and destroy your house, and kill the wild hamsters in your garden that you adored since you were 3 years old. Shit happens sometimes.

However, the vast majority of human drama occurs because humans are dare I say it, stupid as hell. Emotion is often the cause of strife amongst us and in shows like this where human flaws are played to a tee, that's pretty much the living breadth of drama.

Otherwise our characters would have already moved on and there'd be no story.

Archon_Wing
2011-06-07, 16:38
Let's forget the "emotionless" bit (what does that have to do with anything). Bad things happen even to people who do everything "right". Our fate isn't as much under our control as we'd like to think.


Ok... but that changes nothing.

Well, obviously there are situations where you are screwed no matter what you do. But people are flawed creatures and sometimes emotions and personal problems tend to really cloud their judgement, causing them to do irrational things that often will lead to a less desirable outcome.

Basically, I think the point of that post was to show that people aren't robots that pick the most logical choices, and pick negative expected value moves. Characters can be irrational and stupid, but that doesn't mean the plot itself is irrational and stupid; it can still lead to effective drama.

Anh_Minh
2011-06-07, 16:46
Ok... but that changes nothing.

Well, obviously there are situations where you are screwed no matter what you do. But people are flawed creatures and sometimes emotions and personal problems tend to really cloud their judgement, causing them to do irrational things that often will lead to a less desirable outcome.

Basically, I think the point of that post was to show that people aren't robots that pick the most logical choices, and pick negative expected value moves. Characters can be irrational and stupid, but that doesn't mean the plot itself is irrational and stupid; it can still lead to effective drama.

I agree with that, but that's not really what he wrote.

Reckoner
2011-06-07, 16:49
I agree with that, but that's not really what he wrote.

I'm not sure whose post you're reading then, because that is exactly what I was trying to say.

Archon_Wing
2011-06-07, 16:52
I agree with that, but that's not really what he wrote.

Well, we may not be reading the same posts. Let's see how I broke down Reckoner's post


If people act completely logically and without emotion, how does drama even happen?

Implies that emotion causes drama to happen.


There is no story then.
Emotion is very important, for w/o it there's no story.


The characters would know not to get stuck here with their emotions.
Implies that emotion can impair their life or their judgement.

The characters would solve these problems instantly.
That pretty much implies they'd pick the most rational solution, if it weren't for emotional issues and problems stopping them from seeing the issues objectively.


So doesn't drama require people being beaten with the stupid stick to some degree?
Maybe that's a bit too much and I don't necessarily agree they have to be that foolish, but it implies that in a drama, people aren't at 100% mental capacity.


And I would say that considering this show has spanned merely a couple weeks and the emotional trauma some of them are under (Though some question whether there really is such emotional trauma to begin with, which is fine), then it's no real surprise that it's taken just this little bit for the culmination of emotions to occur this episode.

Suggests that emotional trauma and the reawakening of these things enables foolish actions (to us) to be reasonable in context.

I don't necessarily agree with it completely, but that's how I saw it.

Dr. Casey
2011-06-07, 17:02
Yes, a fucking meteor can crash down and destroy your house, and kill the wild hamsters in your garden that you adored since you were 3 years old.

That happened to me once

Archon_Wing
2011-06-07, 17:05
That happened to me once

Man, it never hits the right people. :(

Master Chibi
2011-06-07, 17:32
No, it's doesn't. However, I was thinking about this today and realised that having the characters act logically and realistically would require the writers and directors to put far more effort into their stories and it probably wouldn't fit properly in a 11 or 12-episode series, or wouldn't fit with what they wanted to do with the series, hence the characters' 'duuuuh-ness'

Hey, if everyone in this show was thinking logically and NOT being 'duuuuuuh' WE WOULDN'T HAVE A FREAKING SHOW TO BEGIN WITH.

'Hey, is it true you like Menma?'

'Yes, yes it is. I like Menma.'

MENMA NEVER DIES, WE'RE ALL STUCK WATCHING THE NEXT SEASON OF IKKITOUSEN.

:uhoh:

Pocari_Sweat
2011-06-07, 19:38
Yes, a fucking meteor can crash down and destroy your house, and kill the wild hamsters in your garden that you adored since you were 3 years old. Shit happens sometimes.

If Anjou finds out you did something to that Hamtaro picture in da Secret Base, she's gonna go KugRie on you.

MeoTwister5
2011-06-07, 20:22
If Anjou finds out you did something to that Hamtaro picture in da Secret Base, she's gonna go KugRie on you.

Perish the thought!

foxnaught
2011-06-08, 01:49
Hey, if everyone in this show was thinking logically and NOT being 'duuuuuuh' WE WOULDN'T HAVE A FREAKING SHOW TO BEGIN WITH.


We would, it would just be very different and mostly likely wouldn't fit in the format they wanted. It requires far more effort and planning to do a story where the characters aren't idiots, so they took the short cut for this series

Anh_Minh
2011-06-08, 02:21
Well, we may not be reading the same posts. Let's see how I broke down Reckoner's post



Implies that emotion causes drama to happen.


Emotion is very important, for w/o it there's no story.


Implies that emotion can impair their life or their judgement.

That pretty much implies they'd pick the most rational solution, if it weren't for emotional issues and problems stopping them from seeing the issues objectively.


Maybe that's a bit too much and I don't necessarily agree they have to be that foolish, but it implies that in a drama, people aren't at 100% mental capacity.



Suggests that emotional trauma and the reawakening of these things enables foolish actions (to us) to be reasonable in context.

I don't necessarily agree with it completely, but that's how I saw it.
No. I don't claim to know what he meant, but what he wrote is that stupidity is necessary for there to be drama.

I'm fine with people being stupid, and for that stupidity to cause drama. Because, realistically, there is no shortage of stupidity. But saying stupidity's a condition sine qua non for drama is ultimately just an excuse for lazy writing, based on characters being atypically stupid to fit the needs of the plot rather than driving it with their normal personalities.

Gohan78
2011-06-08, 03:10
If people act completely logically and without emotion, how does drama even happen? There is no story then. The characters would know not to get stuck here with their emotions. The characters would solve these problems instantly. So doesn't drama require people being beaten with the stupid stick to some degree?

Don't misunderstand, "emotional" does not equal "stupid".
People make irrational decisions due to their emotional state but that's fine. When I say "beaten with the stupid stick" I mean that the characters don't try something that any logical person would do, i.e. telling Menma to move an object.
Please watch Cross Game for an example of a great dramedy where the characters don't behave like idiots.

Reckoner
2011-06-08, 03:14
No. I don't claim to know what he meant, but what he wrote is that stupidity is necessary for there to be drama.

I'm fine with people being stupid, and for that stupidity to cause drama. Because, realistically, there is no shortage of stupidity. But saying stupidity's a condition sine qua non for drama is ultimately just an excuse for lazy writing, based on characters being atypically stupid to fit the needs of the plot rather than driving it with their normal personalities.

The drama in this has a purpose. We're dealing with issues of avoidance, and moving on. If the characters were as good and as logical as most people here expect them to be, there'd be no story. It's not lazy writing.

Don't misunderstand, "emotional" does not equal "stupid".
People make irrational decisions due to their emotional state but that's fine. When I say "beaten with the stupid stick" I mean that the characters don't try something that any logical person would do, i.e. telling Menma to move an object.
Please watch Cross Game for an example of a great dramedy where the characters don't behave like idiots.

I have seen Cross Game. But that's a much different type of story.

And why would anyone tell Memma to move an object. Jintan wants to avoid her, not confront her. That makes no sense.

erneiz_hyde
2011-06-08, 03:22
Being emotional = stupid. Live with it. Can't believe I'm saying the same thing from Madoka thread.

So it isn't stupid in intellectual way, it is stupid in a more emotional way. I'm using a same example from Madoka thread: Einstein, dreaming of unlocking the ultimate order in universe denied quantum theory because he emotionally couldn't accept that the fundamental building block is extremely random in nature.

I agree that every emotionally moving story requires involvement of "stupid" characters in it to a degree. However, I still can't accept why didn't Jin-tan show everyone that Menma actually exist much much sooner. That's not "emotionally stupid" anymore imo and is dangerously close in being plain idiot. I understand Menma not doing it earlier, but why didn't Jin-tan make the initiative? I proposed the "cat box" theory to explain Jin-tan's idiocy, though now it seems less likely (though still possible). Also, the fact that even now Jin-tan still haven't actively trying to prove Menma's existence needs explanation imo.

guuchan
2011-06-08, 05:47
Eh, all these arguments on why Jinta didn't do it earlier...

First of all, he is still against it. Notice that Jinta murmured "why" when Menma tried to reveal her existence? He clearly had a reason in mind that was and still is preventing him (otherwise he wouldn't ask "why") from doing it, so why don't we hold our breathe, and see if the show will enlighten us on it later?

Master Chibi
2011-06-08, 10:42
We would, it would just be very different and mostly likely wouldn't fit in the format they wanted. It requires far more effort and planning to do a story where the characters aren't idiots, so they took the short cut for this series

What are you talking about bro, what would we have?

No one in this show is an idiot, they're just human.

Raiga
2011-06-08, 18:47
We would, it would just be very different and mostly likely wouldn't fit in the format they wanted. It requires far more effort and planning to do a story where the characters aren't idiots, so they took the short cut for this series

Wait, so planning+effort and telling the story they want to tell are mutually exclusive? Well damn, I always thought the whole point was for the creators to tell the story they wanted to tell. I didn't realize they were instead supposed to put planning and effort into telling the story they didn't want to tell.

Deconstructor
2011-06-09, 13:42
I cannot hope to explain all the contrivances and loopholes of Anohana, but the show works. I don't even know why I get tears in my eyes after watching Anohana; I just do. I'm not trying to cop-out of providing an adequate explanation as to why I and so many others really enjoy the show. I just don't really have one.

I do not fully understand general relativity, quantum mechanics, or string theory. Regardless, I can still have an appreciation for their brilliance. The same follows for Anohana. I'm humble enough to say the show is actually beyond my scope of reasoning. It uses plausible characters living mostly average lives, yet still manages to inspire extremely profound emotions. I'm a little frustrated - I can't point as to why the drama of Anohana is so much more compelling than your usual soap opera or slice-of-life anime. So, all I can do is cry like everyone else.

Episode 8 Rating: 9.5/10

To address the debate ongoing: I think it's reasonable to believe Yukiatsu or Tsuruko would have suggested Menma demonstrate her existence to them by now, as they are the skeptical ones of the group. However, the show really works better when they simply act illogically to leave Menma's tangibility unquestioned, or make the assumption Menma cannot interact with the real world.

FireChick
2011-06-09, 17:04
After re-watching this episode, I think I understand what Menma means when she says she wants her mom to forget about her. She seems to know that her mom is blaming her friends for her death and that she keeps moping and angsting about it. Based on Menma's actions, I think she forgives her friends but wants her mom to forgive them too...well, I could be wrong, but you never know.:heh: