Sword Art Online - Episode 22 Discussion / Poll [Archive]

Kairin

2012-12-01, 00:39

Welcome to the discussion thread for Sword Art Online, Episode 22.

Grand Quest - グランド・クエスト ~ Grand Quest

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NoemiChan

2012-12-01, 01:43

*Drinks anti-cardiac medications and prepares a box of tissue...

Insane

2012-12-01, 04:22

Kirito . . . the day where you have to reveal your secret for Leefa should just come already, i,ve got enough of this obliviousness contest.

NoemiChan

2012-12-01, 09:28

Thread will be flooding of posts by tomorrow.. must sleep early.. Night!!!

Kirito you.. you...

LoweGear

2012-12-01, 10:30

It's END CARD TIME!

LOL at the swords they're using. Don't they look familiar? :D

http://i.imgur.com/er9sV.jpg

Also, this entire episode can be summed up with two words.

Forever Suguha.

:T_T:

Rakshasa

2012-12-01, 10:47

Now that kinda blew up.

Miraluka

2012-12-01, 11:17

And this is why I really hate adding more girls that falls for the MC when there is a couple already , even if the new girls are better than the main main girl coughZeronoTsukamacough.

LoweGear

2012-12-01, 11:38

Well, one of the things about having all these girls fall for Kirito is that despite the women who willingly throw themselves at his feet, Kirito's LOYALTY lies only with Asuna.

ellessarr

2012-12-01, 11:45

And this is why I really hate adding more girls that falls for the MC when there is a couple already , even if the new girls are better than the main main girl coughZeronoTsukamacough.

i agree this is the only thing i hate on this anime, why making girls falling for him to in the end they get heartbreak, this is only 1 fo the many reasons i hate "harem" animes,(mc totally idiot who keep making girls falling for him but total oblivius to this, or mc who never can choose because is a half womanizer "can't say no to a girl even if already in love for other", MC who let girls do anything they want even if him dont want because he "dont have the balls to say no", Mc with chikening girls sick) i stoped to watch this anime in the end of the first arc, and what i get from the LN only get even worst on romance ground, on the futures arcs, why the author make Asuna the main girl and only real love interest for kirito if him gona keep throwing more and more girls just to give him a "false harem" with many womans in love with him but in the end he aways only love asuna, and how kirito is so a "dense guy" to no see the chikens keep falling for him.

for the romance part i give 0 to this whole second i'm just waiting to watch the last 2 episodes where really the things gona happen for me on this arc:frustrated::frustrated::frustrated:

Miraluka

2012-12-01, 11:50

Well, one of the things about having all these girls fall for Kirito is that despite the women who willingly throw themselves at his feet, Kirito's LOYALTY lies only with Asuna.

Pointless when the formula is gonna be used with more and more new female characters, we know that Kirito is loyal then why making these poor girls to fall for him? =___=;

i agree this is the only thing i hate on this anime, why making girls falling for him to in the end they get heartbreak, this is only 1 fo the many reasons i hate "harem" animes,(mc totally idiot who keep making girls falling for him but total oblivius to this, or mc who never can choose because is a half womanizer "can't say no to a girl even if already in love for other", MC who let girls do anything they want even if him dont want because he "dont have the balls to say no", Mc with chikening girls sick) i stoped to watch this anime in the end of the first arc, and what i get from the LN only get even worst on romance ground, on the futures arcs, why the author make Asuna the main girl and only real love interest for kirito if him gona keep throwing more and more girls just to give him a "false harem" with many womans in love with him but in the end he aways only love asuna, and how kirito is so a "dense guy" to no see the chikens keep falling for him.

for the romance part i give 0 to this whole second i'm just waiting to watch the last 2 episodes where really the things gona happen for me on this arc:frustrated::frustrated::frustrated:
Errrr... NO.

I do watch harem anime, and depending on how is the mc portrayed I can overlook his obliviousness when there is no obvious choose for a girl, thus the spectator can root for one of the girls.

But here in SAO, its damn obvious who is: Asuna. Same for Zero no Tsukaima: Louise. Yet the keep throwing more girls for the MC. Heck, even 2chan and many other sites feels sorry for Suguha...

That is what I hate. This is why I consider ALO a failure regarding character relations... and plot too (mind previous dumb villains).

Klashikari

2012-12-01, 12:00

There we go... *sigh*, well it was a sinking ship right from the get go, and surely nothing is surprising, although it still leave me a very bad aftertaste that the author had to use such ploy to bring drama that shouldn't be brought to be begin with.

Really, Suguha as a character isn't really a problem (I actually prefer her over Asuna), and the fact she doesn't get Kazuto's romantic attention isn't an issue either.
Simply, having her dragged in the love equation, using the generic "non blood related sister" device, and wrecking the character twice in a row doesn't bode too well: not only it basically reduces the said character into an one sided romantic foil that had no chance to begin with, but it also tries to stuff drama that not only has little substance in term of narrative, but hurts the momentum big time.

Really, it isn't like Kawahara needed to pull the romance over there, and so forth, he could potentially just put more emphasis on Kazuto's quest of "freeing" Asuna. Heck, even Suguha could be used as a real sister who discovers her brother's devotion to maximum extent. But instead, we got a sledgehammer double one sided triangle that literally lead to an unsighlty "look, she had no chance, and now she is crushed!" scene. In fact, the author had to go with the "cruelest" way for her to discover, instead of... let's say Suguha barging in Kazuto's room and finding out the nervegear along with ALO. Truly, I still have little to no idea why it had to come for that kind of plot device.
And no, there was no need to add girls left and right to emphasis Kazuto's love for Asuna at all: having him pouring all his efforts to find clues for Asuna's whereabouts would be quite enough, pretty much a man on his mission (which hardly was shown once we got in ALO, until Yui found out Asuna's ID). Instead of having an extensive narrative on his desperate attempts to find her, they had to make him enjoy the game a bit, while pushing Leefa and other girls... That's flat out unecessary.

The fun fact is that as ALO Kirito, Kazuto figured out Leefa's feelings when she was about to confess, but for "some reason", he thinks Suguha is upset because he was wearing the nervgear once again.

Combining this with Sugou's parodic evilness, and surely ALO has little to no appealing aspect compared to SAO arc, save perhaps the sceneries and... "fanservice" for some. And speaking of fanservice, I can't help but notice emphasis on Leefa's "assets", albeit not as exaggerated as in Episode 20. Well, not like it wasn't the case over the course of this arc anyway.

Yusei Fudo

2012-12-01, 12:41

ellessarr

2012-12-01, 12:50

This is why I hate it when MC gets a girlfriend so early in the series and keep going and then more girls are thrown at him and only to be rejected and heartbroken...

Poor Suguha............ ;~;

WHY KIRITO WHY?!!

SCREW U ASUNA GO AWAY D:<

it's not Asuna's fault it's author fault to make kirito being a oblivion MC who is totally unable to see a girl fall for him and being too much "ladiesman", what the problem if when him go to another world and start to get alone with a girl and say to her first who he already have a girlfriend??? instead of keep it a secret(not because he being bad or pervert but because he think "no others girls gona fall for me and for this i dont need say who i already have a girlfriend"), this reason when romance come i prefer animes like chuniibyou, hyouka, kioukay senjou no horizon, fairy tail, because they dont need all girls fall in love to mc to show gorgogenous girls.

Rakshasa

2012-12-01, 13:10

it's not Asuna's fault it's author fault to make kirito being a oblivion MC who is totally unable to see a girl fall for him and being too much "ladiesman", what the problem if when him go to another world and start to get alone with a girl and say to her first who he already have a girlfriend??? instead of keep it a secret(not because he being bad or pervert but because he think "no others girls gona fall for me and for this i dont need say who i already have a girlfriend"), this reason when romance come i prefer animes like chuniibyou, hyouka, kioukay senjou no horizon, fairy tail, because they dont need all girls fall in love to mc to show gorgogenous girls.

It's her own damn fault for not asking if there's a 'mama' involved also when Yui keeps saying 'papa'.

relentlessflame

2012-12-01, 13:46

It's her own damn fault for not asking if there's a 'mama' involved also when Yui keeps saying 'papa'.I'll have to check again, but I'm pretty sure she even referred to "Mama" directly a few times, and at the end of Episode 20 she told Kirito not to "cheat". I guess Leefa just didn't really understand what Yui's comments were supposed to mean (or that they should be taken at face value). The true depth of connection that Kirito had to "Mama" probably wasn't clear until she realized who Kirito and "Mama" were. So I don't really "blame" her... but at the same time, the hints were there. As Klashikari alluded to, from her perspective, it probably didn't help that Kazuto/Kirito had so quickly "friendzoned" (sister-zoned?) her and they were getting along so well. It played perfectly well into the scenario she wanted to have play out, even though there too hints were dropped that he didn't see her that way.

In the end, this sort of heartbreak is always the result of some degree of mutual misunderstanding anyway. I can understand people who don't like the fact that it was written this way... but personally I don't mind it.

pagan poor

2012-12-01, 13:47

We all knew what was coming, and we knew it wouldn't go down easy. Suguha found out the hard way that she wasn't going to win in either world.

ellessarr

2012-12-01, 14:00

I'll have to check again, but I'm pretty sure she even referred to "Mama" directly a few times, and at the end of Episode 20 she told Kirito not to "cheat". I guess Leefa just didn't really understand what Yui's comments were supposed to mean (or that they should be taken at face value). The true depth of connection that Kirito had to "Mama" probably wasn't clear until she realized who Kirito and "Mama" were. So I don't really "blame" her... but at the same time, the hints were there. As Klashikari alluded to, from her perspective, it probably didn't help that Kazuto/Kirito had so quickly "friendzoned" (sister-zoned?) her and they were getting along so well. It played perfectly well into the scenario she wanted to have play out, even though there too hints were dropped that he didn't see her that way.

In the end, this sort of heartbreak is always the result of some degree of mutual misunderstanding anyway. I can understand people who don't like the fact that it was written this way... but personally I don't mind it.

mine personal problem is the author gona do this repetitively on each new world/arc, aways gona be: kirito find a new game then gona get separated from asuna then a new girl pop up and gona fall for him while he total oblivious to this then in the end the girl gona find who he already deeply in love with other girl and gona heartbreak, a very repetitious plot like the author is unable to do anything different from that.

Divini

2012-12-01, 14:21

Watching this ep, I was thinking "Goooo Kirito, save your wife!" while at the same time "Let me punch your face in just this once, okay?"

It's END CARD TIME!

LOL at the swords they're using. Don't they look familiar? :D

http://i.imgur.com/er9sV.jpg

Isn't that sword form-Haruyuki and Hime?

miroku2192

2012-12-01, 14:30

*cries* nooo suguuuuu, that's a really harsh way to learn about the truth, given how hard she had tried to just bring him out of the "dungeon" and revive him. Poor girl, though she had guts to come out and say all that. I'm glad she did though

relentlessflame

2012-12-01, 14:30

mine personal problem is the author gona do this repetitively on each new world/arc, aways gona be: kirito find a new game then gona get separated from asuna then a new girl pop up and gona fall for him while he total oblivious to this then in the end the girl gona find who he already deeply in love with other girl and gona heartbreak, a very repetitious plot like the author is unable to do anything different from that.I don't know what happens in the novel, but I highly doubt the author is going to repeat this sort of arc. This arc is a continuation of the first arc and a resolution to SAO. Once it's over, I should think the story will branch out into new territory. I highly doubt the author will keep playing the "separated from your true love" all over again.

Then again, like I said, I don't know the novels, so if you really want to know, you can ask there. It isn't something that can be discussed in this episode thread.

Anyway, as for the episode in question... I expected Leefa to come in and save Kirito's sorry butt a bit sooner, but I guess it works to have him "die" there. I guess if she didn't save/revive his essence, he would probably be transported back to his starting point? I also liked the way the scene with Suguha played out at the end -- no music, just raw emotion. Even though the ED is up-beat, it seemed a bit more tragic after that ending.

Next episode, I am supposing the cavalry will come (because they should have been able to prepare by now). Honestly, Kirito's "I'll go crazy if I wait another moment" was noble (so his calmness thus far was an act?), but he should know by now that going it alone is dumb (even if you can't "die").

Netto Azure

2012-12-01, 14:38

Ah it's pretty crazy how Kirito does such a crazy thing when entire armies can't even do it. xD

Also they included a bit more introspective dialogue huh. O_o

And oh jeez. You could see the exact moment where Sugu's heart breaks into tiny little pieces. :C

ookamigirl

2012-12-01, 14:45

So close, yet so far away...
The driven Kirito really is something special!
It's amazing what the power of love can do.
I was half surprised to see Leafa run to his rescue.
Well, the first attempt failed.. Sugu's cover got blown as well.
Her confessing love to Kirito was kinda sad.

ellessarr

2012-12-01, 14:51

I don't know what happens in the novel, but I highly doubt the author is going to repeat this sort of arc. This arc is a continuation of the first arc and a resolution to SAO. Once it's over, I should think the story will branch out into new territory. I highly doubt the author will keep playing the "separated from your true love" all over again.

Then again, like I said, I don't know the novels, so if you really want to know, you can ask there. It isn't something that can be discussed in this episode thread.

well like i told this is what i get after get some spoilers from anime and novel, i told this because this is what almost happened since the start, since SAO arc where many girls fall for him and him ended with asuna and some of then get heartbrake too, now the author used a excuse to have asuna kidnapped just to "pop up that non-blood related sister" to fall for him i dont know in japan this is normal but on mine country is not that common non-blood related brothers and sister falling in love especially when grown together, maybe more easy when they are totally unknown whose parents just got married and one of them was recently adopted, but the point is:

[mod edit: remove spoilers]

mine point who this type of "romance" is a very "shit", if in the end kirito and asuna gona end together why the author need put all that too much girls on the screen, and if the focus is the love of then, why he need "pop up' girls to prove they love are "more strong" than wonderful girls, like i told if the author want show many pretty girls he can do this without need this, or if him want do a drama have many others ways to do this, and if the focu on this arc is the rescue of asuna why he need make her fall for him... just more shit to make kirito the "harem master" of the invisible harem who gona grow more and more biger

SilverSyko

2012-12-01, 14:51

Well all those claims of Kirito being a Gary-Stu are really bunk now. If he was one he wouldn't have failed to get past the guardians alone in this episode. :heh:

My main concern with this episode though, didn't they say last week that the area around the World Tree is off-limits? Shouldn't that mean noone can enter that area without authorization? Odd how folks could just walk in and challenge the quest there then. I suppose maybe the enemies in the quest itself could be programmed to an unreasonable level though to assure noone being able to complete it.

And the revelation is finally made to Suguha. That should be the end of that relationship now. Time to go back to a friendship status which is much easier to take seriously.~

The Green One

2012-12-01, 15:10

Well hopefully this will satisfy the God Mode Kirito haters somewhat. It wouldn't be surprising if the guardians are meant to be unbeatable, after all you can't have random players wandering into the lab since the promise to change the winning race into ALFs is clearly a lie.

relentlessflame

2012-12-01, 15:22

My main concern with this episode though, didn't they say last week that the area around the World Tree is off-limits? Shouldn't that mean noone can enter that area without authorization? Odd how folks could just walk in and challenge the quest there then. I suppose maybe the enemies in the quest itself could be programmed to an unreasonable level though to assure noone being able to complete it.I'm supposing they mean that, if you want to get up the tree, the only way in is through the giant doors. You can't try to go around the doors and climb up the tree from the other side or anything, and as we saw flying up doesn't work either. So there's only one way in, and yeah, it seems like something of a suicide run. I suppose this is why people wondered if there was some trick or special quest needed to actually make that quest achievable.

RRW

2012-12-01, 15:27

i want this arc to finish already

Awrya

2012-12-01, 15:28

Ok, Asuna hears Yui and decides to throw down that card she took last episode, and it conveniently falls down right in front of Kirito.
I wonder what would happen if she hears Yui, throws down that card but is on the other side of the world tree?
He says he wants to go to Asuna as soon as possible, but he lands in front on the gate and decides to walk up the last stairs like a boss. :uhoh:

If every light on that wall spawns one Guardian, there must be hundreds, if not thousands of them, from the ground to the top. Maybe the higher you go, more and stronger Guardians will spawn?

The awkward moment when you log out and your party member knocks at your door. :eyespin:
The cat is out of the bag, more emotional stuff next episode.

Tsukiyomi

2012-12-01, 15:29

LunaToned

2012-12-01, 15:31

Suguha ima let you finish, but Asuna is the best female of the show ( and possibly out of all the shows out there :heh: )

But srsly, Suguha's character was okay to me except the whole I'm in love with ma brotha thing. Glad that's over :D

Lender

2012-12-01, 15:31

Awesome Fight! and very good episode, after this episode i think people will stop complaining that Kirito is immortal/invincible/unstoppable .

About Sugoha, poor girls but....everyone saw this coming.
There was really someone expecting that Kirito could break up with Asuna and stay with Sugoha? seriously.....

relentlessflame

2012-12-01, 15:37

Ok, Asuna hears Yui and decides to throw down that card she took last episode, and it conveniently falls down right in front of Kirito.
I wonder what would happen if she hears Yui, throws down that card but is on the other side of the world tree?Yeah, this was a bit funny in terms of the way it was portrayed -- he didn't even have to shift at all. But in terms of the position, keep in mind that Yui had told Kirito the coordinates that were right above them. So he could have been positioned pretty close to the right place, assuming she dropped it straight down and didn't throw it -- he probably wouldn't have been on the wrong side. But I do think he should have had to move a little bit to catch it. :heh:

Phoenix6000

2012-12-01, 15:39

And oh jeez. You could see the exact moment where Sugu's heart breaks into tiny little pieces. :C

Agreed. Those last few minutes were especially harsh, doubly so because we know she never had a chance. Poor Sugu. :T_T:

The Green One

2012-12-01, 15:49

Agreed. Those last few minutes were especially harsh, doubly so because we know she never had a chance. Poor Sugu. :T_T:

I actually felt the opposite. It was brutally clear from day 1 she was introduced that her feelings for him were 100% hopeless. It was impossible for her to be a serious love rival as Kirito would never look at her in that fashion. As a person I feel sorry for Sugu, I mean no one should have to go through that kind of heartache not once but twice from the same person no less, but the fact that this never was serious kept me from any real investment.

If anything I'm glad this pointless diversion is out of the way. This doomed romance was meant for drama but all it accomplished was filling in time during the episode.

kk2extreme

2012-12-01, 15:59

Why does the battle reminds me of Kingdom Hearts in a strange way? :confused:

Ariox

2012-12-01, 16:04

Meh... At the end of this episode were Suguha's mad at Kirito... I mean seriously come on your cousins and plus she should of knew from when she saw him holding her hand while they were at Asunas hospital room... The end was so annoying

Aqua Knight

2012-12-01, 16:05

I thought Sugu knew that Kirito was her brother , omg.

Methuselah

2012-12-01, 16:05

I find that this romance is quite appropraite given that this ALFheim Online has references to Shakespear (Fairy King is the Jester, Titania is the princess that fell in love with a monkey which the monkey being Kirito)

We can't have Shakespear without a little bit of taboo: Leafa and Kirito.

Quite entertaining. Though I wish Kirito could explain himself a little more to Leafa, being that Kirito regret not making amens towards his sister during his time in SAO and tries to redem himself through changing his ways and help others (the dragon tamer girl), etc etc.

Honestly, I think Leafa and Asuna should make an agreement to share... ==

relentlessflame

2012-12-01, 16:06

I actually felt the opposite. It was brutally clear from day 1 she was introduced that her feelings for him were 100% hopeless. It was impossible for her to be a serious love rival as Kirito would never look at her in that fashion. As a person I feel sorry for Sugu, I mean no one should have to go through that kind of heartache not once but twice from the same person no less, but the fact that this never was serious kept me from any real investment.

If anything I'm glad this pointless diversion is out of the way. This doomed romance was meant for drama but all it accomplished was filling in time during the episode.

I wouldn't say that this "diversion" is any more "pointless" than the arc itself, to be honest. This "romance" was doomed to fail just as much as our arc villain is doomed to be brought down. If you eliminate the one "pointless diversion" you're just left with the other, and it's not as if Kirito chasing after Asuna is all that compelling on its own (I mean, not the relationship, but the overall circumstance they find themselves in).

That may seem like a knock on the show, but if your engagement is limited by whether or not the destination is foreseen, I'm not sure there's much to this whole story arc. I think you have to enjoy the journey. I thought the journey of Suguha's feelings and how it wove through the story was fairly-well realized for what it is, even if a bit more of it came together at the end of this episode than might have otherwise. I also don't think this is the end of her journey either -- now that her feelings are out, she has to decide what to do next. This too isn't so unpredictable, but we'll still see how she is able to stand herself back up again. That's really the emotional core of this arc: Suguha learns to accept her doomed feelings for Kazuto and move forward, as he remains fixated on his one true love. I'd say she's really more the focal point than he is, to be honest.

Though I wish Kirito could explain himself a little more to Leafa, being that Kirito regret not making amens towards his sister during his time in SAO and tries to redem himself through changing his ways and help others (the dragon tamer girl), etc etc.Agree with this, by the way. The story isn't over yet, so it'd be good for them to have this chat to close these open plot threads.

I thought Sugu knew that Kirito was her brother , omg.I'm still surprised that people thought she knew. Wasn't the whole point all this time that she didn't?

Methuselah

2012-12-01, 16:07

Can't wait for those doushinjis

Awrya

2012-12-01, 16:14

I thought Sugu knew that Kirito was her brother , omg.

Well, if she knew, she wouldn't have told Kirito (ingame) that she got (indirectly) rejected by her brother (in real life) last episode.

There was no mention from the start of the ALO arc that she knew who Kirito was. If she knew who he was, she'd probably refer to him as Onii-chan from the beginning.

Haak

2012-12-01, 16:17

The first genuinely decent episode of this entire God forsaken arc. Something it desperately needed after sinking a new low in the previous episode.

Insane

2012-12-01, 16:32

Meh, this is why i hate harem element in serious story very much. There's no point in sugu's romance in this arc if KiritoxAsuna couple had been carved on the stone from the start with nobody (no girls) may interfere them. I could already imagine that Kirito gonna pull "i need your help" to heartbroken sugu in the next eps without her able to reject it, poor sugu.

KIRITO, YOU DAMN WOMANIZER!

NoemiChan

2012-12-01, 16:47

Another heart melting and heart breaking episode... We got two in one...

The Heart Melting Part

Yui crying out to Asuna... Kirito defying the difficulties of the Guardians just to save Asuna.. and Asuna crying for the knowledge that Yui and Kirito were just below is very touching... I got tears in my eyes.

The Heart Breaking Part

We all expected it... like I said... just..one word for Kirito to say.... "Asuna" will break Suguha... I wished Kazuto hugged Sugu to calm her down and told her that he will always loved her as his sister... his most beloved imouto..

HandofFate

2012-12-01, 17:08

rofl @ episode 22.
Kirito pretty dumb.

The whole rush thing inside the tower kind of went on for a while. Maybe you should have picked up that Excalibur Sword afterall, you baka.

Also, maybe time to call in the favor of those two faction leaders....since you kind of saved both their whole territory/countries.

Then the scene where Leafa and Kirito find out about eachother, was cracking up. lol.
Kirito should just open the door at the end,and stick it in sugu already.

Esebian

2012-12-01, 17:14

well like i told this is what i get after get some spoilers from anime and novel, i told this because this is what almost happened since the start, since SAO arc where many girls fall for him and him ended with asuna and some of then get heartbrake too, now the author used a excuse to have asuna kidnapped just to "pop up that non-blood related sister" to fall for him i dont know in japan this is normal but on mine country is not that common non-blood related brothers and sister falling in love especially when grown together, maybe more easy when they are totally unknown whose parents just got married and one of them was recently adopted, but the point is:

[mod edit: remove spoilers]

mine point who this type of "romance" is a very "shit", if in the end kirito and asuna gona end together why the author need put all that too much girls on the screen, and if the focus is the love of then, why he need "pop up' girls to prove they love are "more strong" than wonderful girls, like i told if the author want show many pretty girls he can do this without need this, or if him want do a drama have many others ways to do this, and if the focu on this arc is the rescue of asuna why he need make her fall for him... just more shit to make kirito the "harem master" of the invisible harem who gona grow more and more biger

You are overlooking some obvious points:

Firstly you say that the author makes girls fall for Kirito although he is already in love with Asuna. Problem is the girls you are referring to is only Suguha. Remember both Silicia and Liz fall for him before he was together with Asuna. They both had the chance to make him fall for them but Silicia didn't show it to him, while Liz gave up because she knew her best friend Asuna was in love with him.

Secondly he isn't oblivous to their feelings, but seriously they have to show it somehow...what did Sugu do to show her love to him? She had that short sentence in episode 20 when she wanted to silence the 2 leaders of the 2 races; well I dunno if I would now assume that she is in love with me in his position. But we have an obvious case where he saw the feelings for him and that was with Lisbeth. The moment she stopped talking to Asuna as she saw that Asuna was in love with Kirito, he knew that she had fallen for him.

Thirdly I dunno from where you have your spoilers but... [mod edit: spoilers removed]

The Green One

2012-12-01, 17:16

I wouldn't say that this "diversion" is any more "pointless" than the arc itself, to be honest. This "romance" was doomed to fail just as much as our arc villain is doomed to be brought down. If you eliminate the one "pointless diversion" you're just left with the other, and it's not as if Kirito chasing after Asuna is all that compelling on its own (I mean, not the relationship, but the overall circumstance they find themselves in).

That may seem like a knock on the show, but if your engagement is limited by whether or not the destination is foreseen, I'm not sure there's much to this whole story arc. I think you have to enjoy the journey. I thought the journey of Suguha's feelings and how it wove through the story was fairly-well realized for what it is, even if a bit more of it came together at the end of this episode than might have otherwise. I also don't think this is the end of her journey either -- now that her feelings are out, she has to decide what to do next. This too isn't so unpredictable, but we'll still see how she is able to stand herself back up again. That's really the emotional core of this arc: Suguha learns to accept her doomed feelings for Kazuto and move forward, as he remains fixated on his one true love. I'd say she's really more the focal point than he is, to be honest.

Agree with this, by the way. The story isn't over yet, so it'd be good for them to have this chat to close these open plot threads.

I'm still surprised that people thought she knew. Wasn't the whole point all this time that she didn't?

Fair enough, but personally without any sort of actual tension on whether or not Sugu had any chance it was difficult to feel involved in her feelings of love. I personally have enjoyed this arc, it just this aspect of it failed to pull me in and make me feel what it was trying to convey.

You can't really compare Sugu's feelings to our much mocked villain wanna-be, this isn't the type of show to go all bad end on us. Sugu's chara development I suppose is an attempt to differentiate her from "random female party member of the week". The problem here is you can remove the "love" from the Sugu equation and replace it with familial affection/reconciliation with estranged family member for Kazuto, and curiosity over the weirdo newbie which grows into trust and close friendship with Kirito and still end up with the exact same message that Sugu's chara development is trying to convey.

From a certain point of view Sugu's romance sidequest is completely extraneous. I've still always had a soft spot for the runner ups in the romance department in shows but it still doesn't change my opinion on this ultimately.

Yusei Fudo

2012-12-01, 17:17

I don't really like Asuna at all...

relentlessflame

2012-12-01, 17:23

You can't really compare Sugu's feelings to our much mocked villain wanna-be, this isn't the type of show to go all bad end on us. Sugu's chara development I suppose is an attempt to differentiate her from "random female party member of the week". The problem here is you can remove the "love" from the Sugu equation and replace it with familial affection/reconciliation with estranged family member for Kazuto, and curiosity over the weirdo newbie which grows into trust and close friendship with Kirito and still end up with the exact same message that Sugu's chara development is trying to convey.

From a certain point of view Sugu's romance sidequest is completely extraneous.
I'm quite sure this same conversation was had last week. The key point of Suguha's role is as a love interest, not as a family member. You could eliminate her being a family member completely, but the essential point is that she's someone close to him in real life and falls in love with him in the game (thinking she's running away from her doomed real-life crush). This is the message that Suguha's character development is trying to convey. The "sister" aspect is rather inconsequential, and only explains their real-life connection to each other. She could easily be a next-door neighbour/childhood friend whose chance at having her feelings returned were "stolen" by SAO. The only benefit of being Kazuto's "sister" is that it helps explain why Kazuto feels nothing towards her and can't return her feelings (and also the way her feelings developed, as explained in this episode). It also, of course, increases the irony of the situation.

I'm quite sure that neither "familial affection" nor "reconciliation with an estranged family member" have any relation whatsoever to Suguha's role in this story. Perhaps it's an alternate plot that you would have preferred... but I can't see how it's at all connected to the point here.

ellessarr

2012-12-01, 17:27

You are overlooking some obvious points:

Firstly you say that the author makes girls fall for Kirito although he is already in love with Asuna. Problem is the girls you are referring to is only Suguha. Remember both Silicia and Liz fall for him before he was together with Asuna. They both had the chance to make him fall for them but Silicia didn't show it to him, while Liz gave up because she knew her best friend Asuna was in love with him.

Secondly he isn't oblivous to their feelings, but seriously they have to show it somehow...what did Sugu do to show her love to him? She had that short sentence in episode 20 when she wanted to silence the 2 leaders of the 2 races; well I dunno if I would now assume that she is in love with me in his position. But we have an obvious case where he saw the feelings for him and that was with Lisbeth. The moment she stopped talking to Asuna as she saw that Asuna was in love with Kirito, he knew that she had fallen for him.

Thirdly I dunno from where you have your spoilers but... [mod edit: spoilers removed]

lol mine final toughs on this post ^^(already get mine first warn!!!!!:eyespin::eyespin:), make a girl fall for a guy to in the end hearbreak her is not fun this for me not a good way to do a "drama".
make a whole arc dedicated to a girl to do in the end she gets heartbroken, to me is not even something cool that love has been one-sided, to me what matters is how Kirito was unable to along the arc of not realize that their "good deeds" would not make her fall for him, or as mentioned by others could have been more honest from the start and said it was to save the person he loves.
by the way the only harems who i can like are the only like kore wa zombie desu ka where the "romance" is not the focus is just a excuse for the comedy.
by the way dont hate me ^^:(:(

Dark Wing

2012-12-01, 17:29

Meh, this is why i hate harem element in serious story very much. There's no point in sugu's romance in this arc if KiritoxAsuna couple had been carved on the stone from the start with nobody (no girls) may interfere them.

KIRITO, YOU DAMN WOMANIZER!

Well can easily go the other way with the girls trying to steal him away...:heh:

andy

2012-12-01, 17:35

I have to say i feel nothing for Sugu she could ask him certain questions while they travel .
Also you have Yui that say papa all the time , i would think most people would ask if there's a mama even if it was just as a joke.
Just happy we can move on from it .

Dauerlutscher

2012-12-01, 17:37

I honestly could not care less about Suguha and her doomed romance story. I'm just happy that it ended and that we can finally move one from that forced drama nonsese we got with her.

Clarste

2012-12-01, 17:38

relentlessflame

2012-12-01, 17:39

not realize that their "good deeds" would not make her fall for him, or as mentioned by others could have been more honest from the start and said it was to save the person he loves.I'm pretty sure that he wasn't deliberately trying to mislead her, and he made it pretty clear that he needed to get to the top of the tree to meet an important person. He didn't get into all the personal details because he didn't want to burden her with his own personal problems. There were also Yui's comments that helped insinuate what was going on... but of course, this whole thing was fundamentally a misunderstanding. If they both could have been more clear, the misunderstanding obviously would not have happened.

Basically, it's as if you're accusing him of taking off his ring when he goes out in public so he can flirt with girls and hope to "score". I don't think that was ever his intention. He only saw Leefa as a friend, and he wasn't thinking "oh no, if I'm nice to her she may fall for me!". Maybe from now on he'll have to think about that a bit more, but he doesn't exactly have a whole mountain of experience behind him either.

I guess I can understand that people say they don't like the fact that the author went here. But in terms of the characters "in-universe", I don't think either of them are really portrayed as being "at fault".

Edit: I still disagree with you though, or at least feel the story would have been improved if the writer had decided to make it a family connection rather than a romantic one.I don't have any problem with the latter argument, although I'm not really one to speculate too much about what "could have been". I just don't think you can say "you can eliminate this key plot and still convey the very same thing". You'd convey a different thing, and maybe you can argue that it would be a better thing... but it's not the same thing. That's really all I'm trying to get at here -- it's not extraneous because it is the point. Not liking the point is a different issue, IMO.

(And, well, it has been well-documented that I like plots that feature/highlight doomed romance, so I'm sure I do enjoy this plot element more than some do. :heh: )

NoemiChan

2012-12-01, 17:42

Yes, this conversation does seem like a repeat of last week. I still disagree with you though, or at least feel the story would have been improved if the writer had decided to make it a family connection rather than a romantic one. Maybe I'm just not the romantic sort, but I have roughly zero sympathy for Suguha here. Whenever she's shown crying over it all I can do is roll my eyes. Perhaps I'm not the target audience, but I think a family story would be way more compelling than a "silly" love story. Even when I was in middle school I was more self-aware than that.

God.. It was just fate playing with them... She doesn't know anything about Kazuto being Kirito.... She didn't care to ask at all... The girl in her aged will likely fall if partied with a cool guy like Kirito. Her only mistake was keeping her curiosity to herself and didn't bother to ask.... Suguha is a shy girl deep inside..

The Green One

2012-12-01, 17:53

relentlessflame

2012-12-01, 18:02

We may just have to agree to disagree. The romance aspect to Sugu just feels unnecessary to me regardless if she's family or some other random acquaintance. Though this and all previous points I've made on this are purely my own opinion and not necessarily valid for others. There's no real right or wrong stance on this.
Of course it's an opinion, but the point I was disagreeing with was this:

The problem here is you can remove the "love" from the Sugu equation and replace it with familial affection/reconciliation with estranged family member for Kazuto, and curiosity over the weirdo newbie which grows into trust and close friendship with Kirito and still end up with the exact same message that Sugu's chara development is trying to convey.The question is: what is "the message that Sugu's chara development is trying to convey"? You argued that it could be conveyed without the romance... but how does that convey "the same message"? This is the point I don't understand.

Like I said, I can accept if you argue that doing otherwise would have been a better use of her character and resulted in a better overall plot. And if that's what you were trying to say... then it's really just opinions, and there's no point in arguing. But I think it's difficult to eliminate/replace a central plot element and still convey the same message, and if that's the case I really wonder what said message is, in your view.

Clarste

2012-12-01, 18:05

God.. It was just fate playing with them... She doesn't know anything about Kazuto being Kirito.... She didn't care to ask at all... The girl in her aged will likely fall if partied with a cool guy like Kirito. Her only mistake was keeping her curiosity to herself and didn't bother to ask.... Suguha is a shy girl deep inside..

I'm not really sure what you're talking about here.

NoemiChan

2012-12-01, 18:07

I'm not really sure what you're talking about here.

Ok, she just doesn't knew anything nor ask anything.... and fate ( or rather the author) made them look like idiots to not ask anything ever since they both entered the game.

ellessarr

2012-12-01, 18:08

ok in the end was none of then fault and was just a misunderstanding:p

NoemiChan

2012-12-01, 18:13

ok in the end was none of then fault and was just a misunderstanding:p

Ok, this is ok too.

Oroboro

2012-12-01, 18:14

Dramabomb explodes for massive damage! It was obvious from the start where it was headed.

Also holy hell that fight was glorious.

Solafighter

2012-12-01, 18:14

I have waited for this so long. And damn, well done adapted.

I must say, that the scene with Kazuto and Suguha at the door, was the most emotional anime scene, i have ever seen. The way, they talk to eachother, how Suguha feels, the voice acting. Just greatly done from the staff.

It felt really real.

Clarste

2012-12-01, 18:31

Ok, she just doesn't knew anything nor ask anything.... and fate ( or rather the author) made them look like idiots to not ask anything ever since they both entered the game.

That's not the part that makes her look like an idiot.

NoemiChan

2012-12-01, 18:33

Also holy hell that fight was glorious.

I nearly stood up my chair when I thought Kirito was near the opening of the top door.. damn.. the flying swords was one hell of a weapon.... Being stabbed by those huge things.. damn!!! Just the weight of those will pull you down....:heh:

erneiz_hyde

2012-12-01, 18:35

bawwww onii-chan.

OK, with that silly plot point out of the way, we can get to the real plot. I watch this for the plot. And by plot of course I mean dem sugus. Damn, with her love in ruins is there anything left for Suguha now other than be dem sugus (and perhaps dat ass). :heh:

And fuyukomi is just around the corner, the hunting season is upon us! I'm expecting good things.

Klashikari

2012-12-01, 18:39

I'm quite sure this same conversation was had last week. The key point of Suguha's role is as a love interest, not as a family member. You could eliminate her being a family member completely, but the essential point is that she's someone close to him in real life and falls in love with him in the game (thinking she's running away from her doomed real-life crush). This is the message that Suguha's character development is trying to convey. The "sister" aspect is rather inconsequential, and only explains their real-life connection to each other. She could easily be a next-door neighbour/childhood friend whose chance at having her feelings returned were "stolen" by SAO. The only benefit of being Kazuto's "sister" is that it helps explain why Kazuto feels nothing towards her and can't return her feelings (and also the way her feelings developed, as explained in this episode). It also, of course, increases the irony of the situation.

I'm quite sure that neither "familial affection" nor "reconciliation with an estranged family member" have any relation whatsoever to Suguha's role in this story. Perhaps it's an alternate plot that you would have preferred... but I can't see how it's at all connected to the point here.
The problem is exactly as you describe though: Suguha is set as a plot device and not a character on her own: she could be any possible cliché such like the girl nextdoor and her relevancy would be close to null. Instead of being a "complete" character, with her own actions to take regardless of "ALO Kirito existence", she is there just so Kazuto goes through ALO with a "little twist". In fact, her role is slightly better than the likes of Liz...

Here, she is simply a romantic foil for Kazuto who basically has his eyes dead set on Asuna, to which arguably doesn't have any other possible thought, save games. At this point in the narrative, you would wonder why Suguha was even put in an equation as strong as a blunt 1+1=2. Really, Suguha had obviously no chance at all, and having a wrecked romance there doesn't bring anything, save a drama forced there for the hell of it.
If you were to remove the romance aspect, the ALO arc wouldn't be hurt by the slighest: it would actually be possible to have more IRL/in game exposition, than really a focused duo, whereas one is basically going for a dead end.

If the point was to only bring a focus on Kazuto dead set in rescuing Asuna, they could definitely work with Suguha as a true sibling like I mentioned before. Heck, I think Suguha being in love with Kazuto is even less relevant than her being his sister.

By the way, I think if Suguha was just another girl Kazuto knew IRL, it would have been actually a better romance foil, as there wouldn't be really any social reason not to hook with her, save stronger feelings for a given person, which is Asuna.
Having Suguha as his sibling, regardless if she is blood related or not basically give a bigger failure flag than any non relative ones.

Polarpew

2012-12-01, 18:48

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. OMG I WAS CRACKING UP AND TEARING UP AT THE SAME TIME. SO FUNNY AND SO SAD!!!!! GOD THIS IS WHY I LOVE DRAMA.

On a side note this is first anime that made be both cry and laugh at the same time. Was wondering how this was going to be adapted and they did it MAGNIFICENTLY. Gosh the way they ended the episode was awesome totally depressing cliffhanger, how they continue it, I look forward to greatly. BEST EPISODE of the season

Another heart melting and heart breaking episode... We got two in one...

The Heart Melting Part

Yui crying out to Asuna... Kirito defying the difficulties of the Guardians just to save Asuna.. and Asuna crying for the knowledge that Yui and Kirito were just below is very touching... I got tears in my eyes.

The Heart Breaking Part

We all expected it... like I said... just..one word for Kirito to say.... "Asuna" will break Suguha... I wished Kazuto hugged Sugu to calm her down and told her that he will always loved her as his sister... his most beloved imouto..

unfortunately their relationship isnt so good for him to do that. Plus he's not very good at social interactions with people that wasn't from his game

Green²

2012-12-01, 18:54

...I wonder if Suguha has the will to be able to return to the game now. Kirito's has a lot of explaining to do as he absolutely owes her at least that much now. And for even if after then, will he allow Suguha to return to the death game?

Suguha:
The escape from despair to a dream of beauty & wonder, crushed by now a painful reminder of the broken heart of two worlds. :(

GundamZZ

2012-12-01, 19:00

So, Kirito avoids Sugu just because they are not sibling. It makes me wonder if he had the mutual feeling with Sugu. They just didn't know it was SUKI, but they found it embarrassing?

By the way, the revival count down has same mechanism is like a certain underground online game(of other anime).

NoemiChan

2012-12-01, 19:01

...I wonder if Suguha has the will to be able to return to the game now. Kirito's has a lot of explaining to do as he absolutely owes her at least that much now.

No explanation needed. They didn't bother to ask in the first place...

And for even if after then, will he allow Suguha to return to the death game?

Eh? Huh? This is ALO and not SAO right?

Seihai

2012-12-01, 19:12

I'm a bit pissed off at how far Kirito actually got in the tower base. My pride as a gamer was 'hurt'.:heh: I mean come on, even Lloyd Irving is at least willing to accept that he isn't able to do anything on his own! And here we have Kirito with his 'skilled' character who probably made the huge raid party that Leafa was talking about look like a group of idiots. It doesn't help that the way he brushed through the mobs felt like a button-mash to me. The fight was impressive nonetheless but the one-sidedness took off some of my tension due to just how long that scene was.

And so in the second half we have Kazuto reveal and confirm Suguha's true amount of misfortune that we all knew about since long ago. Although nothing new, they handled this part rather nicely as you could really feel their emotions with the way Suguha finally confronted her feelings at him directly, the way he reacted and looked away, and finally the way she huddled herself on the bed while crying. Thank goodness that this whole situation is plain enough to be solved within another episode? In the end neither of them did something wrong, but now that the truth's out at least they can start doing things right. Next episode's title pretty much screams "we're gonna make up and then kick some Sugou's butt together with an army that I funded with my h4x gold".

NoemiChan

2012-12-01, 19:16

Kirito is probably checking how difficult the guardians are.

Tsukou

2012-12-01, 19:17

I wouldn't say that this "diversion" is any more "pointless" than the arc itself, to be honest. This "romance" was doomed to fail just as much as our arc villain is doomed to be brought down. If you eliminate the one "pointless diversion" you're just left with the other, and it's not as if Kirito chasing after Asuna is all that compelling on its own (I mean, not the relationship, but the overall circumstance they find themselves in).

That may seem like a knock on the show, but if your engagement is limited by whether or not the destination is foreseen, I'm not sure there's much to this whole story arc. I think you have to enjoy the journey. I thought the journey of Suguha's feelings and how it wove through the story was fairly-well realized for what it is, even if a bit more of it came together at the end of this episode than might have otherwise. I also don't think this is the end of her journey either -- now that her feelings are out, she has to decide what to do next. This too isn't so unpredictable, but we'll still see how she is able to stand herself back up again. That's really the emotional core of this arc: Suguha learns to accept her doomed feelings for Kazuto and move forward, as he remains fixated on his one true love. I'd say she's really more the focal point than he is, to be honest.

I find myself agreeing with your point of view quite a bit in previous episode discussions, and would like to add that I don't understand people's dislike of harems where you know what the author is intending. Heartbreak isn't the end of the world, and in most cases I see it as a way for characters to grow in the future. Reading the first page of comments makes me feel like when a girl gets her heartbroken, she becomes useless, which is ridiculous. You can't measure a character's worth based on failures and successes.

And like you said, it's about the journey. Obviously everyone here knows in the end Kirito will defeat everyone who gets in his way, and eventually meet up with Asuna and she'll probably wake up, and it'll be happily ever after. We've probably known that ever since we saw Kirito walk out of the hospital. That doesn't make the series any more or less enjoyable. People need to just sit back and enjoy the ride, and even tho we know Suguha gets dumped, doesn't stop her from being a good character. I actually really enjoyed the end of this episode where she's pouring out her feelings, and thought it was well scripted. Despite myself being sad for her position, I still enjoyed watching it. I feel like anyone who didn't like Suguha, didn't like her because they knew she wouldn't succeed, and I feel like that's such a poor criteria, because I felt like she's a good character. Sure the romance is cliched, but honestly can you not say the Asuna romance wasn't cliched either? Doesn't stop it from being good. And when she talks about how she was glad when Kirito woke up from SAO and how he began to treat her nicely again, it puts pieces as to why she likes him.

Well that's enough from me, just think people should enjoy the show for what it presents, and not try to force it into a little box of preconceived notions.

ellessarr

2012-12-01, 19:26

I find myself agreeing with your point of view quite a bit in previous episode discussions, and would like to add that I don't understand people's dislike of harems where you know what the author is intending. Heartbreak isn't the end of the world, and in most cases I see it as a way for characters to grow in the future. Reading the first page of comments makes me feel like when a girl gets her heartbroken, she becomes useless, which is ridiculous. You can't measure a character's worth based on failures and successes.

And like you said, it's about the journey. Obviously everyone here knows in the end Kirito will defeat everyone who gets in his way, and eventually meet up with Asuna and she'll probably wake up, and it'll be happily ever after. We've probably known that ever since we saw Kirito walk out of the hospital. That doesn't make the series any more or less enjoyable. People need to just sit back and enjoy the ride, and even tho we know Suguha gets dumped, doesn't stop her from being a good character. I actually really enjoyed the end of this episode where she's pouring out her feelings, and thought it was well scripted. Despite myself being sad for her position, I still enjoyed watching it. I feel like anyone who didn't like Suguha, didn't like her because they knew she wouldn't succeed, and I feel like that's such a poor criteria, because I felt like she's a good character. Sure the romance is cliched, but honestly can you not say the Asuna romance wasn't cliched either? Doesn't stop it from being good. And when she talks about how she was glad when Kirito woke up from SAO and how he began to treat her nicely again, it puts pieces as to why she likes him.

Well that's enough from me, just think people should enjoy the show for what it presents, and not try to force it into a little box of preconceived notions.

you get a "good point", "grow" this is the problem on most of the harems this "dont happen" aways the girls gona stay in love with him(one saide) the MC awas gona be the same and on SAO is not different, and i can't say much more... about this because can be spoiler...(fear of warns ^^:D)

edit: in fact the only "grow" us have in a harem is the number of girls falling for MC

HandofFate

2012-12-01, 19:29

Sugu exploding and accusing Kirito of quitting kendo and avoiding her because he knew they weren't blood-related seemed harsh imo.

Not sure if Kirito had that intention, maybe he did. But wow. Shots fired by Sugu there.

Kind of thought that maybe Kirito not being related was a birth secret for him and that they got Kirito when he was a baby, and even he didn't know.

Imagine him finding that out right there on top of having to save asuna.

After sugu shuts the door and Kirito leans against the door and drops to the floor.

"...I'm adopted?"

Seihai

2012-12-01, 19:37

Kirito is probably checking how difficult the guardians are.

Yeah, confirming the enemy's strength is a crucial thing to do in games anyway. I don't doubt the logic behind Kirito's actions at all. It's just that I'm not really satisfied with how the whole scene plays out. The battle conveyed what it wanted to convey, and that's good. But in my opinion, especially because it is that long, they could have packed so much more stuff in it to 'spice up' things.

Oroboro

2012-12-01, 19:38

Kirito has always been a loner... and though he learned to work together with Asuna, it seems he's never really taken the lesson to heart.

Dr. Casey

2012-12-01, 19:38

NoemiChan

2012-12-01, 19:42

Kirito has always been a loner... and though he learned to work together with Asuna, it seems he's never really taken the lesson to heart.
People do crazy things when they're in love... the more that Asuna is still in game and near his reach...

Lender

2012-12-01, 20:19

Just read the first page so far, but wow that's a whole lot of griping

I don't think I'll ever understand why people get so butthurt over the things that they do. I'm not sure why the occasional tragic love story is such an awful thing.

Well...if you give a look at the others discussion posts about SAO episodes you will find out that the ones with a lot of complains are "almost" always the same people, a fast look at the poll votes is a better way to know peoples opinion about the episode.

dmaxzero

2012-12-01, 20:29

Loved the fight, the drama didnt bother me...

I can say now what has been bothering me since the start of ALO... the way the emotions are invested in the game avatars.

In SAO was understandable because they didnt have a real counterpart and being killed meant death. So real life limits are applied. But here is not he case and I find utterly ridiculous how Kazuto spout those heroic dialogues and philosophical rebouts.

In the LN wasnt a problem, I do wonder if the media change is that drastic.

Green²

2012-12-01, 20:32

Eh? Huh? This is ALO and not SAO right?
As I see it, not much has changed between the two. I see no reason that the GM couldn't flip a kill switch at any point considering the udder lack of oversight in their management. (Crazy mind experiments, hostages, etc.)

Kirito is now aware that Asuna is here within ALO. It's not a oh, hi, how did you end up within this game kind of thing. I'm quite sure at this point that Kirito must know that her being there is likely Sogou's doing. And if Sogou is capable of at least that much, then you could assume that he could be capable of even more. And Kirito could assume that because of his experience through SAO.

Kirito would die trying to reach Asuna if he must, but like leaving Leefa behind, he clearly doesn't wish to see anyone else hurt for his own desire to be with Asuna. And I believe that his reasoning for leaving Leefa behind is so to keep those that he care of away from the troubles that had carried over from SAO.

NoemiChan

2012-12-01, 20:33

As I see it, not much has changed between the two. I see no reason that the GM couldn't flip a kill switch at any point considering the udder lack of oversight in their management. (Crazy mind experiments, hostages, etc.)

Kirito is now aware that Asuna is here within ALO. It's not a oh, hi, how did you end up within this game kind of thing. I'm quite sure at this point that Kirito must know that her being there is likely Sogou's doing. And if Sogou is capable of at least that much, then you could assume that he could be capable of even more. And Kirito could assume that because of his experience through SAO.

Kirito would die trying to reach Asuna if he must, but like leaving Leefa behind, he clearly doesn't wish to see anyone else hurt for his own desire to be with Asuna. And I believe that his reasoning for leaving Leefa behind is so to keep those that he care of away from the troubles that had carried over from SAO.

Actually, its the calling ALO a death game that bother me...:heh:

relentlessflame

2012-12-01, 20:37

Well, regarding the way this failed romance played out, it's probably worth saying that -- given that the path was clear for a long time now -- people's opinions about this plot thread have indeed been rather clear for a while now. Indeed, nothing I'm saying or nothing Klashikari is saying or anyone else is really all that different from how we've been approaching it all along, because this was the foregone conclusion. This is just like how, at the end of this arc, I'm sure many people will reiterate their views about the villain when he finally gets defeated.

At the end of the day, it really comes down to your expectations about the show, and what it is that you were hoping for from it. (Or as the case may be, what you enjoyed from the first arc.) There is certainly a group of fans who enjoyed the SAO arc for the sense of tension that the "life and death" situation created. Transitioning to another game where death isn't a present threat with an obviously-doomed romance and an obviously-doomed comical villain is a bit of a culture shock if what attracted you was that sort of "tension". Obviously, you can tell by my posts that this wasn't a factor that personally was key to my own enjoyment, so even though I recognize the "obviousness" of the plot developments, it doesn't deter from my own enjoyment. Indeed, I thought the way this episode played out was quite good in my view. The emotions in the last scene were really intense, even though we all saw it coming.

I think most of the complaints are less about this episode itself, but more about the plot thread on the whole that came to a head here in this episode. And so that's why you'll see opinions generally carried over from week-to-week. This week was just a natural climax to something set in motion many episodes ago.

The problem is exactly as you describe though: Suguha is set as a plot device and not a character on her own: she could be any possible cliché such like the girl nextdoor and her relevancy would be close to null. Instead of being a "complete" character, with her own actions to take regardless of "ALO Kirito existence", she is there just so Kazuto goes through ALO with a "little twist". In fact, her role is slightly better than the likes of Liz...Eh, I wouldn't go quite that far. While her role as a plot device is key, I thought they actually did a pretty good job of developing her even beyond that. There is actually more to her than just her failed romance, and even that was a lot more convincingly-portrayed. I think there is a place for her going forward.

If you were to remove the romance aspect, the ALO arc wouldn't be hurt by the slighest: it would actually be possible to have more IRL/in game exposition, than really a focused duo, whereas one is basically going for a dead end.

If the point was to only bring a focus on Kazuto dead set in rescuing Asuna, they could definitely work with Suguha as a true sibling like I mentioned before. Heck, I think Suguha being in love with Kazuto is even less relevant than her being his sister.I suppose you could do this, but I liked this doomed romance angle to the story, even though it was rather obvious. I think it has value on its own merits, and itself drives and carries the plot. The alternate way you would like the story to be presented is interesting... but hard for me to say if I would enjoy it more. Again, my premise is that just knowing where the plot is heading doesn't negate my enjoyment in the journey. If that weren't the case, I would have given up on anime a long time ago. My own personal view, of course.

Vsin

2012-12-01, 20:55

I'm sorry, I'm a terrible person. I actually laughed when it got to the big reveal and heartbreak. I found it painfully forced and cliche when I read it, and it felt even more forced and cliche when I watched it. If anything, the entire Fairy Dance arc up to this point was like a really irritating itch that you really really wanted to scratch but you had to wait for someone to finally arrive and scratch it for you. Oh well, at least we finally finished the reveal so we can get to the part of the story that I actually give a damn about.

It's a sort-of spoiler to say this, but every SAO arc is structured fairly differently compared to any other arc so if you didn't like ALO then don't worry, it doesn't happen again. I at least hope Japan doesn't hate ALO as much as I do because otherwise we might not get to see GGO animated.

The execution of the card drop and fight scene were excellent though.

miroku2192

2012-12-01, 20:56

Form a big bubble and fly up together. Layers of bubbles of people with shields. I wonder how many it would take to just get a few into the entrance, as opposed to flat out fighting it out.

btw, this was so cute:

http://img542.imageshack.us/img542/3370/saogifyui.gif (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/542/saogifyui.gif/)

Vmem

2012-12-01, 21:01

Well, not gonna leave a long rant, am a novel reader so I saw this one coming ever since they started the SAO anime. but gotta say, this has a very different feel with decent VAs and animation. And I mean both the part where Kirito goes on a rampage of love and when Suguha's heart just shatters to pieces.

Great job and kudos to the anime, very well done episode (like I said, I already knew the plot so I won't rate it :p )

Edit: Forgot to add and I've mentioned this before, but I believe there is a heavily dialed down sense of pain in the ALO world. definitely nothing like what you'd feel in RL, but I think when kirito and later leafa got shot with those arrows, they felt it. when kirito got impaled by the swords, I think he was just too emotionally numb to care. maybe the arrows are like a paper cut, and the swords are like being punched pretty hard by someone

Dark Wing

2012-12-01, 21:08

It's a sort-of spoiler to say this, but every SAO arc is structured fairly differently compared to any other arc so if you didn't like ALO then don't worry, it doesn't happen again. I at least hope Japan doesn't hate ALO as much as I do because otherwise we might not get to see GGO animated.

The execution of the card drop and fight scene were excellent though.

You don't have to worry about that because the show is selling pretty well actually.

Anyone else see Kirito catch on to the confession before Leafa could even get it out just like with Liz.

Vmem

2012-12-01, 21:21

You don't have to worry about that because the show is selling pretty well actually.

Anyone else see Kirito catch on to the confession before Leafa could even get it out just like with Liz.

oh yeah, he totally knew as soon as she latched onto his back actually. she just stomped him by revealing her real identity

Dark Wing

2012-12-01, 21:32

oh yeah, he totally knew as soon as she latched onto his back actually. she just stomped him by revealing her real identity

Kirito: Oh no, Not another girl I'm going to have to let down easy...:(

Man I wish I had that kind of problem as a teenager...

Witch of Uncertainty

2012-12-01, 21:38

First time since SAO's "destruction" I've really enjoyed. Fantastic episode imo

kk2extreme

2012-12-01, 21:41

Kirito: Oh no, Not another girl I'm going to have to let down easy...:(

Man I wish I had that kind of problem as a teenager...

Kirito is a natural lady killer ;)

Vmem

2012-12-01, 21:52

Kirito: Oh no, Not another girl I'm going to have to let down easy...:(

Man I wish I had that kind of problem as a teenager...

don't forget his later reaction of "onii-chan??? sugu ??? !!! o.O X_X KILL ME KNOW Shit SHit SHIT SHIT SPOIWHQRPIOUDS crap she just logged out ohhh FML"

NoemiChan

2012-12-01, 21:55

Kirito: Actually Suguha... I quit kendo... because of you..... because I knew that we weren't my blood siblings.... I have already fantasies, very "nsfw" of you back then.. also I find you really hot in a kendo outfit those.. uhmm yeah... ehem... So before I lose myself and commit a crime, I have to quit kendo and used other means to divert my "puberty induced urgent madness, aka impure thoughts og you" to other stuffs like games for example SAO....

Wait, now I get it..!!! You're the one who drove me to play SAO..!!!

Peanutbutter

2012-12-01, 22:50

Nice grand quest, nice attempt and nice save. Last of all, brilliant revelation.

I think this series has some of the best voice acting I've seen for a long time. First from Kirito, then Asuna and now Suguha.

Terrific scene voiced out by Ayanyan. One can really feel her heart being broken twice in there. It's really screwed up and I dun think this will be a story mechanic I'll see again for a very long time.

Hope all of them get some form of recognition for their performance. :)

Zodiamaster

2012-12-01, 22:53

justinstrife

2012-12-01, 23:17

Am I the only one who thinks this episode sucked?
Kirito spent the first 15 minutes being an overly dramatic, cliched desperate hero, and in the last 5 minutes his conveniently unrelated-by-blood sister confesses her love for him.

This probably was the worst episode since the rushed declaration of love/sex/marriage of Kirito to Asuna back in episode 11(I think).

You probably aren't the only one, but you are very much in the minority. :)

I gave this episode a 9. Wasn't perfect, but it was an excellent episode. Looking forward to the final episodes to this season and praying for a follow up season later on.

germanturkey

2012-12-01, 23:51

well, the pacing shows i was off with my "sugou is a mid level boss." but man, what an episode for character development! amazing voice acting and fight animation. they really used their budget on this one.

zecknor

2012-12-01, 23:54

I really wish they would make a visual novel for this story so we can pick the heroine we like the most :(
(still Asuna for me though :D)

He should've just dodged all their attacks and went straight for the gate like how Sugu did without getting hurt till she was running away xD

I would say the author did a good job of handling the relationships for all the girls if you read the novel.

I am sad they took at least 2 episodes out from the novel (between getting to the city of Ygg and after leaving the meeting of the leaders.) Here is the link (http://www.baka-tsuki.org/project/index.php?title=Sword_Art_Online:Volume_4_Chapter_ 5) to the chapter to read if you want :) It wont be a spoiler cause it's already past.

GDB

2012-12-02, 00:01

He should've just dodged all their attacks and went straight for the gate like how Sugu did without getting hurt till she was running away xD

He didn't take that much more damage than she did up until that point. It was all the arrows that did him in, just like it almost did to Leafa.

GoldenLand

2012-12-02, 00:11

I liked this episode! It had some flaws, like the way Kirito's fight dragged on and got repetitive, and Suguha's distressed discussion with Kirito in the real world (as the dialogue just didn't feel realistic to me) but overall it was nice. Maybe it's just that there was an actual quest and quest monster fight in this one. I love me a fight in SAO/ALO. And Leafa finally, finally got to do something in combat. Finally! Isn't she supposed to be one of the best fighters in the game or something? She seemed to be the fastest person there until Kirito's arrival. So I hated to see her standing around going (at best) "Ooh Kirito! You're wonderful, let me heal you and be your support" before.

Kirito does seem like a bit of a jerk for having been cold towards Suguha before he went into SAO. I think it would have been more interesting if that angle had been played up more - that is, if Sugu's problems with him this arc were more about the treatment he'd given his little sister and her reaction to that rather than her falling for him. Someone suggested that in an earlier thread, and I agree it would have been better than what we got.

Somehow I'd been expecting for Leafa to charge in to save Kirito along with a horde of allies, but it didn't happen. And now it looks as if Kirito is going right back in to the place he has no hope of defeating. That's just no good. He should know by now that he can't beat it alone, and can't beat it with Leafa's help either. The sensible thing would be to try to hurry up that arrangement from before.

The art seemed particularly nice this ep, I think.

NoemiChan

2012-12-02, 00:43

I really wish they would make a visual novel for this story so we can pick the heroine we like the most :(
(still Asuna for me though :D)

The visual novel will always end up with Asuna being dumped in the end of the SAO world except in her route... Kirito will always be with Asuna through the boss fights. It's more painful to see Asuna getting dump if you will not take her route.

Also I'll be glad to know that Yui-chan is the key to unlock Asuna's extra story in SAO: AfterStory (ALO)..:D

Insane

2012-12-02, 00:58

He should've just dodged all their attacks and went straight for the gate like how Sugu did without getting hurt till she was running away xD

Are you kidding me? she almost turned into a hedgehog by the rain of arrow if she were split seconds slower in rescuing him.

Even if Kirito tried to dodge all the storm of arrows, in the end that's virtually impossible anyway as they didn't give even a single gap for him to do that.

Kokukirin

2012-12-02, 01:01

A very good episode overall. I like how Kirito becomes so desperate that he just mindlessly charge in, put up a very good fight with excellent animations, and lose. Leefa (whatever her spelling is now) finally gets a scene where she isn't just the sidekick behind Kirito.

I never liked how the anime forced Sugu's love in. Even now it doesn't seem real because it is so out of nowhere. But I really like how the final third of the episode is done here. Excellent voice acting. The title of for next episode suggests that they will find a way forward somehow, and I hope that is what will happen.

Somnus

2012-12-02, 01:09

My biggest gripe with the episode was that it actually ended. I sat there for the entire ED and 5 minutes more refusing to believe 22 minutes had passed.

Fantastic episode.

Tsukiyomi

2012-12-02, 01:21

Am I the only one who thinks this episode sucked?
Kirito spent the first 15 minutes being an overly dramatic, cliched desperate hero, and in the last 5 minutes his conveniently unrelated-by-blood sister confesses her love for him.

This probably was the worst episode since the rushed declaration of love/sex/marriage of Kirito to Asuna back in episode 11(I think).

Yes...most definitely. Sugu's love for Kirito has been established since her character first got introduced. And if you were in Kirito's situation with the one you love being so close and yet so far, you would go berserk too. It is the first time he got a positive confirmation that Asuna really is there in this world right in trapped front of him.

Mazryonh

2012-12-02, 01:29

It was great to get this kind of performance out of Taketatsu Ayana. "My Little Sister Can't Be This . . . Frustrated?", maybe?

GundamZZ

2012-12-02, 01:29

Not a bad episode, unless you are projecting yourself as Kirito. Kirito learns about defeat and lose. If he gets what he wants every time, some people will criticize this wish fulfilling element.

S-san is the guest. Asuna and Kirito are TV hosts.

The jealous Asuna is so scary. :heh:

http://i46.tinypic.com/25gfgno.jpg

Malkuth

2012-12-02, 01:32

The last scene was simply fantastic, it very well worth watching the rest of this arc.

Crontica

2012-12-02, 01:46

Why does the battle reminds me of Kingdom Hearts in a strange way? :confused:

Nah it reminded me of final fantasy, the 2 hander and everything just matched.

y_uno21

2012-12-02, 01:59

[QUOTE=Divini;4458232]Watching this ep, I was thinking "Goooo Kirito, save your wife!" while at the same time "Let me punch your face in just this once, okay?"

i still laughing read this reply.

well i can say Kirito or kazuto, the cool man with super dual sword skill to crush monsters and girl heart too -__-

a great story with must have much great complications i think. in the end this ep make me really really want ep 23

-i'm new here with bad english soo i'm sorry-

Obelisk ze Tormentor

2012-12-02, 02:43

Damn, watching people got executed slowly is much more painful than watching a quick death. That’s more or less what I felt when I watch Suguha’s “romance” since the start of the arc. She’s already boarding Titanic before she even realized it, and now the ship has sunk -_-.

Anyway, it’s a great episode. Nice battle animation, nice dramatic moment and nice voice acting. Like everybody else, I like it that the “doomed romance” subplot is finally over. Now, it’s up to Kazuto to make up with Sugu (by treating her something nice like he promised before :p), log in together again, and do some Super-Mario-Bros or Contra on ALO.

Kirito is a natural online lady killer ;)Fixed it for you ;).

Raviel

2012-12-02, 03:06

Whoever Suguha's VA is should be given a massive bonus for this week's episode, I normally don't comment much about how the lines are delivered but dear god Suguha just sounded so hurt it was almost painful to watch.

Part of me just wants to give the poor girl a hug now.

On an unrelated note, after watching this and Horizon I can reasonably conclude that men become 3x stronger when saving their waifus.

Rising Dragon

2012-12-02, 03:11

Well, she did have a lot of practice with the whole little sister with issues thing as Ore no Imouto's Kirino Kousaka. :V

Raviel

2012-12-02, 03:16

Oh, sorry didn't know about that.

So Sugu= Kirino huh........

Izayoi

2012-12-02, 04:24

This is why you need to take initiative early for a healthy "incest" relationship. You have so many opportunities when you were young but now it is too late... I am a bad person.

Dr. Casey

2012-12-02, 04:37

Whoever Suguha's VA is should be given a massive bonus for this week's episode, I normally don't comment much about how the lines are delivered but dear god Suguha just sounded so hurt it was almost painful to watch.

Part of me just wants to give the poor girl a hug now.

I thought the exact same thing; Suguha's pitiful whimpering and crying afterwards was exceptionally authentic and well-performed. Beautiful, busty, charming, an RPG fangirl that enjoys romping around and having adventures in virtual reality worlds; Suguha would be a perfect girlfriend.

Justice Knight

2012-12-02, 04:41

i didnt expect Sugu NOT knowing Kirito is her bro in the virtual game,how did she NOT know???

Nezu

2012-12-02, 04:45

She didn't know her brother had started going online again. So why would she suspect he was Kirito on ALO if she didn't know he gamed again?

Reckoner

2012-12-02, 04:53

Pardon my intrusion on the conversation.

The problem is exactly as you describe though: Suguha is set as a plot device and not a character on her own: she could be any possible cliché such like the girl nextdoor and her relevancy would be close to null. Instead of being a "complete" character, with her own actions to take regardless of "ALO Kirito existence", she is there just so Kazuto goes through ALO with a "little twist". In fact, her role is slightly better than the likes of Liz...

Well here's an interesting fact about much of the ALO arc... In the LN, a LOT of it (if not a majority if I remember) takes place from Suguha's perspective and not Kirito's. Now I only bring this up because if you pay attention the anime, there is also quite a sense of a lot of this arc being seen from Suguha's eyes rather than Kirito's.

So aside from your issues with the choice of cliche for her character, I think labeling her as a plot device seems sort of strange considering she is the POV for a good amount of the story more or less for this arc. Plot devices don't typically dominate the POV of the story, so I think this is a flawed interpretation.

The fact of the matter here is that ALO isn't just about Kirito's quest to save Asuna, it's just as much about Suguha and her relationship with her brother. Whether that's a plot line you like, I'd take it you don't and I personally have my own issues with it but not to your extent, is a different story. However, asserting she is nothing but a convenient plot device to serve the purpose of Kirito's guide is a bit flimsy. The story could have easily abused Yui to give Kirito all the information he needs so Kawahara obviously felt that he had a story to tell with Suguha that he deemed meaningful enough to take a major role in the story for this arc.

Here, she is simply a romantic foil for Kazuto who basically has his eyes dead set on Asuna, to which arguably doesn't have any other possible thought, save games. At this point in the narrative, you would wonder why Suguha was even put in an equation as strong as a blunt 1+1=2. Really, Suguha had obviously no chance at all, and having a wrecked romance there doesn't bring anything, save a drama forced there for the hell of it.
If you were to remove the romance aspect, the ALO arc wouldn't be hurt by the slighest: it would actually be possible to have more IRL/in game exposition, than really a focused duo, whereas one is basically going for a dead end.

Well in my opinion I also think Suguha didn't need to be Kirito's sister (even if fake), but I think you're over simplifying things.

Again, the point of view of this arc hasn't just been from Kazuto, in fact I feel we have seen things more from Suguha's than Kazuto's the entire time. A major effort has been put into developing Suguha has her own character with her own conflicts and her own worries and her own goals. Essentially, she isn't simply a fodder side character who is used to bounce off Kazuto because she's been given much too much attention in this arc IMO.

I would also like to think that her character has seen more development than simply being a dead end romance. Though it's mostly reaffirming many of the themes of SAO arc, Kirito has made quite an impression on her about the wonders of VRMMORPG and how it is highly comparable emotionally to the real world in the way they treat it. The fun of being engrossed in a complete fantasy world, that is a lot of what is being communicated in this arc.

grey_moon

2012-12-02, 05:30

Very good episode and the realisation that Kirito is her brother was very well done. Made up for last episodes slow mode logout scene.

I loved the way how Sugu conveyed her feelings especially as it seems to stem from her PoV, as I remember/believe that Kirito started avoiding his sister because he felt guilty letting her deal with their granddad and the kendo lessons.

Very excited to see how they deal with this situation :)

Benigmatica

2012-12-02, 06:45

So much for the epic rescue on this episode! I wonder if Kirito can try it again next week, this time having Suguha/Leafa at his side and a bunch of his old friends?

erneiz_hyde

2012-12-02, 07:08

I find myself agreeing with your point of view quite a bit in previous episode discussions, and would like to add that I don't understand people's dislike of harems where you know what the author is intending. Heartbreak isn't the end of the world, and in most cases I see it as a way for characters to grow in the future. Reading the first page of comments makes me feel like when a girl gets her heartbroken, she becomes useless, which is ridiculous. You can't measure a character's worth based on failures and successes.
you get a good point, "grow" this is the problem on most of the harems as this "dont happen". the girls will always stay in a one sided love with the MC. It's always the same and SAO is not different, and i can't say much more... about this because can be spoiler...(fear of warns ^^:D)

edit: in fact the only "grow" us have in a harem is the number of girls falling for MC

I'll gladly welcome it if Suguha gets even more development, but judging from the number of episodes left (and the above poster who I guess reads the novels), I doubt that's gonna happen soon (there's certainly potential though. probably delve further into the whole Kendo family business?). But until that further development comes along, she's now assigned as a gratuitous tour-guide for our hero equipped with dem sugus (I'm sorry for being such a juvenile, but my mental image of Suguha won't be straying too far from bawww and dem sugus any time soon :heh:).

You know, I'm now reminded of Sana's route in Mashifoni. Gotta love the under dog! ;)
EDIT:
http://i.imgur.com/fSmYh.jpg
:heh:

Crontica

2012-12-02, 07:21

She’s already boarding Titanic before she even realized it, and now the ship has sunk -_-.

This should be the quote of the day, damn this slow trainwreck was painful to watch, to the point i was wondering if they were going to turn her into a diabolus ex machina. :eyespin:

novalysis

2012-12-02, 08:03

The problem is exactly as you describe though: Suguha is set as a plot device and not a character on her own: she could be any possible cliché such like the girl nextdoor and her relevancy would be close to null. Instead of being a "complete" character, with her own actions to take regardless of "ALO Kirito existence", she is there just so Kazuto goes through ALO with a "little twist". In fact, her role is slightly better than the likes of Liz...

\

I disagree with the part I bolded. Suguha's backstory is Central to Kirito's character and backstory, and a cornerstone of Kirito's characterization, from the very First Episode (and chapter) to Scillia, chronologically speaking. Changing her to a girl-next door would completely derail and result in arguably, a very, very different Kirito who may not even have had stepped into SAO, to begin with.

Unfortunately, I can't use the LN to argue that case. But if, if the producers had , theoretically decided to make Suguha a child-hood friend, then the entire SAO Arc outside the Asuna-centric proportions would have had to be rewritten. Suguha is CENTRAL to Kirito's character, this appears most obviously in the Saachi and Scillia cases. Had A1, in a fit of narrative creativity (that they haven't shown in this rather mediocre adaptation) decided to swap Suguha from Sister/Cousin status to Child-hood friend, then SAO would have strayed away from LN canon quite significantly.

"First Day", a story that A1 in their wisdom decided to skip makes it very clear that much of Kirito's actions were driven by a certain longing for Suguha, in a platonic, familial sense. That probably also explains why Scilla and Saachi got friendzoned so quickly- to Kirito, they were Sister-Surrogates of sorts, not romantic options. Change that detail, and the ramifications reach right down deep into the Aincard Arc.

Now, there is quite a few people out here, and elsewhere who believes that the SAO Adaptation was better off rewritten rather than blindly adapted (and even then, the script-writer IMO has some rather funny ideas of what is essential information - as early as Episode 1, but that's another topic. )

Which is rather impossible, given that unlike Chuunibyou, SAO has 10 volumes and counting, and the first arc is currently being rewritten. By suggesting that there's no difference between Suguha's status as Cousin or Childhood friend, you are basically proposing a change every bit as large, as say.

the kind of character changes between the Chuunibyou LN and Anime.

eplipswich

2012-12-02, 08:08

All I can say is that I am heartbroken watching Sugu heartbroken just like that. I knew this dreaded day would come when Kirito reveals the name and then Sugu goes...what? Now, I wonder how Kirito would deal with this kind of situation. I myself don't really know but to, I guess, let her calm down for now...

Sumeragi

2012-12-02, 08:18

:T_T::T_T::T_T::T_T::T_T:

I'm becoming more and more willing to..... eliminate the competition for Suguha.

eiyuu99

2012-12-02, 08:20

Episode 22, also coined as "loss and heartbreak"

Obelisk ze Tormentor

2012-12-02, 08:40

:T_T::T_T::T_T::T_T::T_T:

I'm becoming more and more willing to..... eliminate the competition for Suguha.Plan C? :p

Sumeragi

2012-12-02, 08:40

Plan C? :p

Plan S.

*Gets out the jackhammer and chainsaw*

Dauerlutscher

2012-12-02, 09:03

Well all i can say after i read many comments is, the writer has achieved what he intended do. Make the audience feel pitty for Suguha and that in an extremely penetrant way.
fragb85 from random curiosity said it exactly how i feel about this whole Suguha thing.
Its so hilariously pretentious. It all can be summed up as “FEEL SORRY FOR SUGUHA!!!! PLEASE CRY AUDIENCE!!! WE WAN’T YOU TAKE THIS SERIOUSLY!!!”
Suguha fell for her cousin and was rejected even before confessing after she understood that she had not the slightest chance to get him. Ok, so good so far and I hoped we could move one from this hopeles case.
But that she fell for Kirito, a guy she barely knew and only met a couple of days in a game without really knowing anything about him except that he is cool, and that he turned out to be the same guy that was never interested in her in the first place and who had already someone he loves, made me facepalm even more. This whole thing was just way way way too forced for me to be taken seriously or make me feel more than just amused about the ridiculousness of this situation.
I'm usually very empathic and I can feel easily sorry for charcters in a story, but not if it is done in such an incredible penetrant and forced way like in this case. Sorry, but it just doesn't work for me.
This whole arc has been a dissapointment for me. Instead on focusing on Kirito, his thoughts, his worries and on Asuna etc., we are forced to watch this nonsense with Suguha and that only for forced dramas sake. But don't take me wrong, this show is still way above avarage for me and I will watch to the end to see how we get to the happy ending.

:T_T::T_T::T_T::T_T::T_T:

I'm becoming more and more willing to..... eliminate the competition for Suguha.
As if that would change anything.;) And she was never in a competition in the first place.

~Yami~

2012-12-02, 09:06

at first, yeah! Kirito-Asuna finally can make some contact (love the picture anyway)

and Kirito's brute force is not bad as well... at least he put some awesome fight in the losing battle... when Lyfa appeared, I conclude that these Kirigaya 'siblings' maybe can conquer those guardians if they entered together... hahaha... awesome action by both of them

then... that moment when Asuna mentioned.... oh damn! although Sugu must be appreciated for pumping up enough courage to go out from her room and confront her beloved onii-chan...
Kirito also being a dumb for just be quiet and non-stop apologizing act.. explain something, man! if you can't say anything, leave her alone...

then, SAO this week leave all the heart-broken watchers

Sixth

2012-12-02, 09:22

It is hard for Suguha to compete with Asuna, considering how plain she looks in real-life. Her avatar may stand a chance win Kirito's heart, but definitely not her real appearance.

Heck, even me prefer Lyfa over Suguha any day, any time.

Miraluka

2012-12-02, 09:37

:T_T::T_T::T_T::T_T::T_T:

I'm becoming more and more willing to..... eliminate the competition for Suguha.

I would agree but that will to help Sugu should saved for later... the Liz/Suguha "formula" is gonna be played once and once again since the author likes to keep throwing girls to Kirito left and Right:mad:.
Thats why I don't like Kirito anymore save for counted occasions, the guy is very unstable character wise and plain...

joshuafaramir

2012-12-02, 09:37

The only girl who had a chance against Asuna died years before in SAO. poor girl.

Anyway, awesome ep.! Romance was generic and obvious but that's how it is in RL as well. Spectators can see what's going on but those in question do not. Lesson to learn, not everything is sweet and dandy. Harems are nasty if played right, not those silly comedy/harem/romance anime that we all have watched.

Kirito go! You're still the best MC harem character out there. Except for Kenshin...

blewin

2012-12-02, 09:49

ah well, I'm more interested in the fluid fights than in the Sugu's expected reaction.
this arc is really so much better than the last in everything. A shame it's so short.

joshuafaramir

2012-12-02, 09:50

orpheus2

2012-12-02, 09:54

Tsundere Louise

2012-12-02, 09:55

The episode was good and... poor Suguha. Guess Kirigaya never thought of her more than a sibling...

Insane

2012-12-02, 10:03

And speaking of harems... what about that guy from Clannad eh?? That guy was as bad as Kirito... We all know who he was gonna end up with but the story keeps on throwing girls at him even when the newer girls where a lot better.

Badass MC or not, harem is harem after all. It's all for the sake of those damned japanese otakus. They won't be satified until tons of girls swarming the MC even though they clearly know that not all of the girls will be chosen by him in the end.

sarcasm aside. I wonder why Kirito didn't just grab one of the dome guardian's sword and went back to his dual wielding style which virtually would give him much more advantage in extra-cornered situation (i was facepalmed when he parried one of the guardian's sword by his bare hand, if only said hand had wielded another sword instead......)

Millenia

2012-12-02, 10:04

I was so waiting for this episode, to know what way they would find the truth about each other. Kyaa~

Go Suguha!

Now to rewatch it!

Sumeragi

2012-12-02, 10:04

And speaking of harems... what about that guy from Clannad eh?? That guy was as bad as Kirito... We all know who he was gonna end up with but the story keeps on throwing girls at him even when the newer girls where a lot better.

Depends. You could choose the route in the original visual novel, so using the anime as the standard is slightly problematic.

Chaos2Frozen

2012-12-02, 10:10

And speaking of harems... what about that guy from Clannad eh?? That guy was as bad as Kirito... We all know who he was gonna end up with but the story keeps on throwing girls at him even when the newer girls where a lot better.

Badass MC or not, harem is harem after all. It's all for the sake of those damned japanese otakus. They won't be satified until tons of girls swarming the MC even though they clearly know that not all of the girls will be chosen by him in the end.

You do realize you're criticizing an Anime that is an adaptation of a visual novel with multiple story routes that you can choose from right?

Kanon

2012-12-02, 10:23

That was just horrible. It was already bad enough to break Sugu's heart, they didn't have to crush it into tiny little pieces. Having her fall for Kirito was ridiculous and pointlessly cruel if you ask me. There's no way I can take that kind of contrived drama seriously. It's just too much. The whole situation ended up being hilarious instead. The moment Sugu confessed and realized Kirito was her brother... MY SIDES :heh: :heh:

Sure, this was a foregone conclusion since the start, but that doesn't make the writing any less terrible. Not even in fanfiction can you find something that bad.

As for the good:

- Yuki Kajiura's soundtrack was wonderful as always.
- Ayana Taketatsu's performance was absolutely stellar. She's kind of wasted here.

Raviel

2012-12-02, 10:28

Uh, Kirito. There is a reason it takes an army of players to beat the Grand Quest. Then again, he was consumed by emotion at the time.

Poor Sugu...

Overall, it was quite enjoyable.

*looks at end card* :heh:

If/when Kirito manages to get a raid party going for the Grand Quest I fully expect if to go something like this:

Sylph Leader (I forgot her name XD): Alright guys this dungeon has given us problems before, does anyone need anything from the boss?

Leafa/Lyfa: I think Kirito-kun needs to save his girlfriend

Sylph Leader: *sigh* Alright Lou do a quick number number crunch and see how we hold

Lou: Hmmmm, based on our last few runs I'd say we have a 34% chance of clearing the quest this time. What's the plan?

Slyph Leader: Warriors go in and draw while--

Kirito: Ok guys lets do this..........ASUNAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

Everyone Else: Oh my god he just ran in, SAVE HIM

Sylph Leader: STICK TO THE PLAN GUYS

Lou: Too late I'm dead

Leafa/Lyfa: Kirito-kun you idiot

Kirito: At least I have my waifu

:heh:

Oroboro

2012-12-02, 10:38

Hmm... I think ultimately, Suguha was too caught up in her own fantasy. She IS a 15 year old girl after all, and during the two years Kazuto is in SAO, the idea of a forbidden romance slowly worms its way through her head, and becomes an unchecked fantasy that she invested too much in until it was too late.

Anyway, I was thinking. I wonder if it would be possible to chop up the scenes from ALO, only giving us the scenes from Suguha's / Lyfa's perspective, and have it still make sense. I guess maybe if you showed it to an outsider like that, a bit of basic exposition on the SAO incident as she knows it.

By casting her as the main character and removing any knowledge about Kirito, we have the story of a 15 year old girl interested in a taboo romance, but who eventually falls the badass and mysterious stranger with a dark and hidden past. (Which, in case anyone forgot, that second part is the plot to every romance novel ever written.)

Edit: That probably is the crux of Suguha's problems really, that she thinks she's the main character of a different kind of story.. =P

blakstealth

2012-12-02, 10:39

@Raviel: Leeroy Jenkins, much? lol

Raviel

2012-12-02, 10:41

@Raviel: Leeroy Jenkins, much? lol

That IS what Kirito did during the episode minus causing the entire raid group to wipe :heh:

Fawx9

2012-12-02, 10:44

Well glad that that's been dealt with.

Anyone else think it would have been better for Sugu to just play a sister who matured over 2 years and is more worried about him/concerned about who he is now than what we got?

IMO her character could have grown that way instead of being a drama bus.

larethian

2012-12-02, 10:46

ALO is the worst arc to me in the entire SAO series. But, with regards to the anime which I finally caught up after weeks, I actually liked the flashbacks and BGM placement this episode!

ellessarr

2012-12-02, 11:07

Depends. You could choose the route in the original visual novel, so using the anime as the standard is slightly problematic.

second half of the game(after story) is totally about the main girl, and like i told if the author wished he could have done a good drama without using "romance" as a hook, family problems he had before the game could appear without make her fall for him

Dauerlutscher

2012-12-02, 11:20

The Relationship with Nagisa and what happened to her had a big impact on Tomoya and made him who he was at the end.
Besides after that thing happened with Nagisa, romance played not so much of a big part, but the family aspect.

In the end, Tomoya and Kirito have nothing in comon except that they hade/have a harem. Comparing them is absurd and is of topic.

Miraluka

2012-12-02, 11:58

Dauerlutscher

2012-12-02, 12:26

Well, in most "harem"stories it's clear who is going to end up with whom anyway and they still don't wast 10 episodes or more on pointless and forced romance just for dramas sake.
In the case of this story, it's just the extreme focus for so long on a girl that had never a chance in the first place what is so annyyoing. It's just a huge waste of time. It was clear that this thing with her would not go anywhere and istead on fousing on things that are more important, Kiritos and Auna character developmet, we got nothing but 10 episodes on a pointless thing.

Sumeragi

2012-12-02, 12:32

istead on fousing on things that are more important, Kiritos and Auna character developmet, we got nothing but 10 episodes on a pointless thing.

Wait, you thought that was the point of this arc? You must have missed the memo.

Bahamut

2012-12-02, 13:26

...if Kirito was just going to rush in anyways...
...that should have been the first thing that happens when he entered this game...

...enter game...
...meet Leafa...
...gets to Alne...
...hears Asuna...
...rushes to Yggdrasil...
...attempt fails...
...then start everything else...

...but i guess if that happened the heart break scene wouldn't work (not like it matters)...
...its Suguha's story so i guess it has to be this way?

...fight scene was good though...showed his determination...even though it was kinda late in-game...

Dauerlutscher

2012-12-02, 13:54

Wait, you thought that was the point of this arc? You must have missed the memo.
The memo about what? That i should be prepared of a huge waste of time?

I hoped that we would get the necessary character development to the main characters, but we didn't get it. The time that was wasted could have ben used to make the characters and the story deeper. What we got instead was 10 episodes of pointless and forced drama and characters that are still flat.
Take this forced romance thing away and absolutely nothing would have ben lost. Kirito would still be the same "omnipotent" guy, Asuna would be still trapped and still be forced to marry, and the villain would still be that idiotic guy that he is.
So tell me. What was the point on focusing on Suguhas little problem for so long besides to have drama for dramas sake and to make the audience feel pity for her in an extremely blatant way?

relentlessflame

2012-12-02, 14:16

In the case of this story, it's just the extreme focus for so long on a girl that had never a chance in the first place what is so annyyoing. It's just a huge waste of time. It was clear that this thing with her would not go anywhere and istead on fousing on things that are more important, Kiritos and Auna character developmet, we got nothing but 10 episodes on a pointless thing.
There's a lot more to the theme and message of SAO than just "Kirito and Asuna's story". It's not a shounen action show that's all about watching the protagonist power-up so he can face his next villain (although there is an element of that). Suguha's story offers its own commentary and perspective on the link between games and reality and how your feelings are the bridge between the two. It's a complement to the perspectives of both Kirito and Asuna, whose current situation is developing the same themes. Even though her romance was doomed from the start, the issues explored and the perspective shown is directly connected to the show's theme.

As I said before, Kirito and Asuna's story isn't auto-magically more important or more related to the theme just because they're the main characters. From a strictly pragmatic point of view, there's nothing to be gained from Asuna being captured since we know for sure that she will be reunited with Kirito in the end. So their little story arc of being separated and reunited is not magically more important than Suguha's because of who they are. It's also not pointless just because the destination is known, because that's no different in either plot thread. All three characters are important because their respective stories all revolve around the same theme and message, and that's why the three perspectives will come together in the arc's denouement.

I'm not saying you have to like it, but I think it's extremely relevant to the story they're telling... just not to the story you would rather they tell instead.

Keroko

2012-12-02, 14:17

I find it amusing that it is mostly Kirito gets blamed for idiocy here even though he has an NPC with him that calls him papa, who keeps talking about a mama and Kirito himself keeps saying there's someone he has to meet.

Really, he couldn't have been more obvious without yelling "I have a girlfriend" every five seconds. The one who failed to connect the dots here is Suguha, not Kirito.

Dr. Casey

2012-12-02, 14:24

Maybe Suguha realized early on that ALO Kirito had a girlfriend, she's just a bad girl and figured that she could steal Kirito The Spriggan away. She just broke down towards the end once she realized that Spriggan Kirito was actually Cousin Kirito because she knew how deeply Kirito was in love with Asuna, and that Kirito was one of the few guys for whom her feminine wiles wouldn't work.

Hooves

2012-12-02, 14:26

People like happy endings, seeing stories comes together and cause trauma to poor Sugu's heart makes it depressing. The way Sugu has been in Kirito's life has been him neglecting her after knowing they weren't siblings. Sugu eventually grew used to that, but was saddened to know that her brother was hospitalized from SAO.

Like Sugu said, she thought she had a chance since Kirito was being nice to her now. Instead of neglecting her and avoiding her like he used to before SAO. The romance between Kirito and Asuna lead Sugu on the path to forgetting and letting things go. But just having her learn that Kirito is Kazuto, and breaking her poor heart to even more pieces is rough indeed.

But I believe it helps her story in another sense. If somehow Sugu is able to forgive over-time, because it wasn't as if Kirito purposefully lead into anything. It might help the bond between Sugu and Kirito as brother, and sister more then keeping things in the dark. I was curious about Kirito's family, especially his sister when she was in the 1st episode, and when he talked about her to Silicia. ALO lets us explore her own personal story, so I don't think this arc is wasted.

About the "papa" thing. That really can lead anyone to think they have a girlfriend in that scenario. But it could also be that Yui just likes to call Kirito "papa" to someone else's perspective. If there isn't another presence shown, or if there isn't any "mama" going around near Leafa. Then that's what you would think. Regarding how this episode transpired, Sugu probably thought that Kirito had someone that meant a lot to him. Like how he goes saving people's lives, or risk helping Sugu and the Slyphs when he was a Spriggian.

Edit: When Yui said "cheating" to the leaders, that can be a valid argument. But Leafa being able to become close to Kirito and Yui is fine with it can lead to BIG misunderstandings.

Just my personal opinion though.

Dauerlutscher

2012-12-02, 14:46

There's a lot more to the theme and message of SAO than just "Kirito and Asuna's story". It's not a shounen action show that's all about watching the protagonist power-up so he can face his next villain (although there is an element of that). Suguha's story offers its own commentary and perspective on the link between games and reality and how your feelings are the bridge between the two. It's a complement to the perspectives of both Kirito and Asuna, whose current situation is developing the same themes. Even though her romance was doomed from the start, the issues explored and the perspective shown is directly connected to the show's theme.

As I said before, Kirito and Asuna's story isn't auto-magically more important or more related to the theme just because they're the main characters. From a strictly pragmatic point of view, there's nothing to be gained from Asuna being captured since we know for sure that she will be reunited with Kirito in the end. So their little story arc of being separated and reunited is not magically more important than Suguha's because of who they are. It's also not pointless just because the destination is known, because that's no different in either plot thread. All three characters are important because their respective stories all revolve around the same theme and message, and that's why the three perspectives will come together in the arc's denouement.

I'm not saying you have to like it, but I think it's extremely relevant to the story they're telling... just not to the story you would rather they tell instead.

Seriously, I can't see a thing you are saying in this show and I honestly think you are reading way too much into it. What I can see are flat characters in a flat story with an even more flat vilain. This theme and message, what are they in the first place? Because i Seriously don't get. It just present in a so superficial way, that i'm even wondering why so much people take this so seriously.
And of course the Kirito Asuna story is far mor important than this onsided romance thing with Suguha. Without The situation Asuna and Kirito are in, we would not have this Show in the first place. Suguhas romance was by no means necessary to the plot and taking that away would not have changed anything to it. Heck Suguha even could have ben replaced completely with a diferent girl that has absolutely no romantic feelings for him and it still would not have changed anything. Kirito would still be the same, like everyone else too.

Oroboro

2012-12-02, 14:51

Seriously, I can't see a thing you are saying in this show and I honestly think you are reading way too much into it. What I can see are flat characters in a flat story with an even more flat vilain. This theme and message, what are they in the first place? Because i Seriously don't get. It just present in a so superficial way, that i'm even wondering why so much people take this so seriously.

I find this type of attitude really disappointing, and I see it everywhere...

Dr. Casey

2012-12-02, 14:57

What kind of attitude do you mean?

I can agree with the villain being flat (though he's not exactly meant to be multifaceted anyway), but I disagree with the story being flat and disagree even more strongly with the characters being so.

Oroboro

2012-12-02, 15:00

Somnus

2012-12-02, 15:01

I find it amusing how people say "forced drama, forced drama" for the Kirito x Sugu relationship criticizing how drawn-out and pointless it is. You talk as if it'd be far fetched to find this situation in actuality.

The situational circumstances are pretty similar to this instance I had a few years back:

I have a Male and Female friend, and am close to both. They dated in high school. Broke up to go their separate ways after graduating. After breaking up female realizes she really liked Male friend, which only grows more after they meet again after a year and a bit. Male friend has girlfriend. Female friend still likes him, and is sad. I know this, but the Male friend is none the wiser.

As the third party here I'm assuming the same role as someone watching SAO, the audience. Am I supposed to say "What the hell is this forced drama for?" That's ridiculous.

It's not like for the past 10 or so episodes Sugu has been screaming at Kirito, "WHY DON'T YOU LOVE ME!?" (literally forcing drama). The only exception, of course, being this one episode. As an audience we just get to see everything, and everyone's situation/thoughts as a whole. It'd be nice to take a couple seconds to realize the individual circumstances here instead of writing it off due to your own unfortunate fate as an audience member.

Do I really need to point out the fact that men and women getting interested in someone who's already taken is a pretty common occurrence? These things do happen outside of "harem" anime, you know.

Oroboro

2012-12-02, 15:09

^ Also this. Suguha is, remember, a 15 year old girl, with all the emotional immaturity that entails.

And a bit selfish even, she's far more focused on her own perspective and feelings than trying to consider what Kazuto is going through. Which is well, totally normal.

Klashikari

2012-12-02, 15:20

I find it amusing how people say "forced drama, forced drama" for the Kirito x Sugu relationship criticizing how drawn-out and pointless it is. You talk as if it'd be far fetched to find this situation in actuality.

[...]

Do I really need to point out the fact that men and women getting interested in someone who's already taken is a pretty common occurrence? These things do happen outside of "harem" anime, you know.Your situation has barely nothing in common here.
The problem with ALO arc is that they introduced Suguha's role (not character) as essentially a third wheel that will never get a chance to begin with, with the saving grace of being a major actor in Kazuto's quest of rescuing Asuna. To actually shoehorn a character in a fiction that would just do nothing in the romance interactions aside of bringing a drama in there is what bothers some of us.

Suguha's emotional turmoil isn't far fetched. What is far fetched is how the Author felt the need to conveniently put that character in such setup twice in a row without much relevancy to the plot: the fact Suguha conveniently played the very same game is one thing that I can let slide. However, the fact she conveniently didn't find out that Kirito was played by Kazuto despite living under the same roof, then falling in love THEN being smashed to smittereens is something beyond awkward in term of storytelling.
This is where the forced drama is called down: a character that has no choice of winning whatsoever is placed as the main vector of a ongoing arc, to be actually a catalyst of a one sided romance failure, with little to no involvement from the love interest. And such problem actually has no impact in the large scope of all things in the said arc.

As mentioned already, Suguha being Kazuto's sister has barely any relevancy in the equation. It is just a parameter that makes it easier to spot the "doomed love flag" and all the tropes that originates from it (because let's be honest, the author do put several "anime type" girls on purpose to cover the audience fetish).

So far, the major complaint here was rather how Suguha's role (I insist on that term, it is fairly different if we talk about her character altogether, which has not real issue to begin with) was used as a needless romance foil. She could potentially have more role than that, but the anime simply doesn't go this way, and Suguha's involvement is strictly on ALO arc, and this is where the problem lies in.

If you honestly think the incident and consequences are absolutely natural, please be my guest, that's your own perspective and interpretation.
That said, if you feel the need to disagree, at least consider the actual points instead of pointing out the wrong arguments.

Dr. Casey

2012-12-02, 15:34

Just the active rejection of a deeper meaning, or even the possibility that there might be something more there than they're giving it credit for.

Sometimes, what you get out of a story is proportional to what you put into it, yknow?

Aye, I agree. Personally, I've always thought that many stories don't get the credit that they deserve. A lot of people tend to act as though just because something isn't 'high art' (ugh I feel so pretentious using that term) it must be low art, and I don't think one should be accused of looking too deeply into a story simply because they attribute more meaning to it than you do. Stories resonate differently with different people, after all, doesn't mean either viewpoint is wrong.

Do I really need to point out the fact that men and women getting interested in someone who's already taken is a pretty common occurrence? These things do happen outside of "harem" anime, you know.

I've noticed over the years that many posters on AnimeSuki seem to have pretty stringent standards for what qualifies as realistic.

"Character A got emotional over a situation and handled it slightly badly? Such forced drama. Things like that never happen in real life."
"Character B showed a slight regression in personality? How unrealistic. I can't believe that his character progression isn't completely and utterly linear."
"*insert any plot development ever that throws the story into a darker direction, or a more positive direction* How contrieved. Coincidences never happen in real life, and in reality there are never unexpected strokes of fortune and misfortune. Such contrieved and unrealistic nonsense."

Apparently, the only realistic story that properly conveys a setting that's true to life is a story in which nothing even remotely interesting or dramatic or slightly unlikely ever happens.

To actually shoehorn a character in a fiction that would just do nothing in the romance interactions aside of bringing a drama in there is what bothers some of us.

[...]

(because let's be honest, the author do put several "anime type" girls on purpose to cover the audience fetish).

I don't have any problem with most of this post and can see where you're coming from, but for the first point... well, "If it doesn't contribute to the main plot it has no purpose" is just an overly pragmatic thought process I have trouble relating to. Just because a subplot doesn't contribute to the main plot doesn't mean that it's a waste of time, or that it doesn't contribute anything at all. Just being entertaining and enjoyable and giving insight into the characters and how they respond to certain situations is reason enough for me.

And as for the latter part, well... not to sound rude, but unless you're a mind reader I don't think anyone can say for sure the reasons that he writes his characters any certain way. He might just be trying to craft characters that he believes are genuinely good, rather than just cheaply exploit tropes for some easy popularity and increased sales.

Vsin

2012-12-02, 16:05

snip

This is basically my criticism of most of Fairy Dance. Lyfa/Sugu is completely irrelevant to the plot and only exists to be a love interest that inevitably gets shattered. For crying out loud, I even consider Silica and Lizabeth to be more plot-relevant because at least their interactions with Kirito helped define Kirito's personality. Lyfa/Sugu's actions and reactions basically don't have any effect on the plot until the not-so-surprising plot twist.

I have nothing against the whole incest romance thing. What I have a problem with is how utterly pointless the developments are, especially when the overarching plot is supposed to have absolutely nothing to do with Sugu, except for Sugu basically shoehorning herself into the plot.

Seriously, take Sugu and Lyfa right out of Fairy Dance and ask yourself what changes. Admittedly this question is easier to answer when the arc actually finishes, but if you ask me you can completely remove Lyfa/Sugu from the arc and nothing of value is lost. It's really, really telling when even A1, despite their extremely faithful adaptation, chooses to remove AN ENTIRE CHAPTER. Because that chapter is nothing but more dramatic irony tension and a plot setup that doesn't bear fruit until a side story.

Dr. Casey

2012-12-02, 16:08

Seriously, take Sugu and Lyfa right out of Fairy Dance and ask yourself what changes.

That means saying goodbye to a great pair of boobs

unacceptable change imo

relentlessflame

2012-12-02, 16:10

What is far fetched is how the Author felt the need to conveniently put that character in such setup twice in a row without much relevancy to the plot: the fact Suguha conveniently played the very same game is one thing that I can let slide. However, the fact she conveniently didn't find out that Kirito was played by Kazuto despite living under the same roof, then falling in love THEN being smashed to smittereens is something beyond awkward in term of storytelling.The narrative irony is the point. I think there's certainly no in-story reason why she should have figured it out over the course of these three days, even though they live in the same house. But, it's obviously designed so that the plot will culminate as it did. I don't think she really "fell in love" with Kirito so much over the few days (at least not compared to her long-running feelings for Kazuto), but she wanted to and thought she could. I suppose they could have been more subtle/sneaky about it, but I thought the irony was played reasonably well.

This is where the forced drama is called down: a character that has no choice of winning whatsoever is placed as the main vector of a ongoing arc, to be actually a catalyst of a one sided romance failure, with little to no involvement from the love interest. And such problem actually has no impact in the large scope of all things in the said arc.I would contend strongly that Suguha is the central character being developed in this arc, and all the other developments in the arc have an impact on her and her development, rather than the other way around. The stuff with Kirito and Asuna is happening in parallel, but doesn't really develop their characters that much beyond where they already were. So I think I could safely argue and defend that this arc exists to tell Suguha's story, in the context of resolving the situation with Kirito and Asuna. In that sense, the very theme itself was her doomed romance.

This is the very same theme explored in D.C.S.S., where the whole plot revolved essentially around the inherent unfairness of those were not chosen and finding a way to move on.

Of course, this was an incredibly unpopular show in no small part because of this uncommon theme. A lot of people considered the entire show "pointless" simply because the romantic heroine never changed and they never really further developed the main couple... even though that tied to the very theme of the work.

So far, the major complaint here was rather how Suguha's role (I insist on that term, it is fairly different if we talk about her character altogether, which has not real issue to begin with) was used as a needless romance foil. She could potentially have more role than that, but the anime simply doesn't go this way, and Suguha's involvement is strictly on ALO arc, and this is where the problem lies in.I think, again, rather than a "needless romance foil", the subject is her doomed romance. So the climax to that development and the related denouement will complete the essence of her story. What we as an audience take away from that ties into the themes that were developed over the course of this arc.

Seriously, take Sugu and Lyfa right out of Fairy Dance and ask yourself what changes. Admittedly this question is easier to answer when the arc actually finishes, but if you ask me you can completely remove Lyfa/Sugu from the arc and nothing of value is lost.Honestly, get rid of Sugou and his comedic henchmen, and have Asuna just wake up in her hospital at the same time as Kirito. Is there anything of value lost? Asuna loses one fiance that stands no chance, and Kirito is reunited with his true love and they can move on to future battles together.

I think this whole arc is about the journey more than the destination. We've known the destination since day one.

(Incidentally, I don't believe the parallels between these two "futile" plot threads is an accident by any means.)

SilverSyko

2012-12-02, 16:20

Well if Leafa wasn't around noone could have retrieved Kirito's soul from after he was killed and revived him right? I know he would've revived eventually anyway since it's a game but there's a penalty for that and I don't know if Kirito could afford such a thing to happen.

But I know what you guys mean. I could do without the incestuous sub-plot too because I think it's silly, unnecessary and not very interesting. Though I would say that about any show where romance is not the main focus really. It's not my place to say it shouldn't have it though because the author has the right to write whatever the hell he wants.

Anh_Minh

2012-12-02, 16:22

Suguha's emotional turmoil isn't far fetched. What is far fetched is how the Author felt the need to conveniently put that character in such setup twice in a row without much relevancy to the plot: the fact Suguha conveniently played the very same game is one thing that I can let slide. However, the fact she conveniently didn't find out that Kirito was played by Kazuto despite living under the same roof, then falling in love THEN being smashed to smittereens is something beyond awkward in term of storytelling.
I don't see anything weird about her "falling in love" with Kirito. Though what she did was earmark him as a replacement for the one that was beyond her reach. And you've got to admit, Kirito and Kazuto do have a lot in common, personality-wise...

This is where the forced drama is called down: a character that has no choice of winning whatsoever is placed as the main vector of a ongoing arc, to be actually a catalyst of a one sided romance failure, with little to no involvement from the love interest. And such problem actually has no impact in the large scope of all things in the said arc.

As mentioned already, Suguha being Kazuto's sister has barely any relevancy in the equation. It is just a parameter that makes it easier to spot the "doomed love flag" and all the tropes that originates from it (because let's be honest, the author do put several "anime type" girls on purpose to cover the audience fetish).
But, as Relentlessflame said, if you look at it as Suguha's story, it really isn't so bad. It's a story where the heroine doesn't get the boy, but does that matter?

So far, the major complaint here was rather how Suguha's role (I insist on that term, it is fairly different if we talk about her character altogether, which has not real issue to begin with) was used as a needless romance foil. She could potentially have more role than that, but the anime simply doesn't go this way, and Suguha's involvement is strictly on ALO arc, and this is where the problem lies in.

I'd like to note that even though she didn't appear in SAO, Suguha was one of Kirito's three great regrets, which pushed him into becoming the hero he eventually was. (The other two being Klein and Sachi.)

Dr. Casey

2012-12-02, 16:25

Hm, I'm pretty sure that Klein managed to survive SAO (thankfully, he's an awesome guy). I think you mean the guy who died during the first boss fight, whose name escapes me.

Rising Dragon

2012-12-02, 16:26

No, he means Klein. Kirito felt immense guilt for leaving him behind on floor 1 when the whole trap thing was revealed. That Klein survived the game doesn't erase that guilt. Diabel's death factors into it.

Dr. Casey

2012-12-02, 16:27

Ah, I see. That was during the first or second episode? I don't remember that at all; I should go back and watch them.

Anh_Minh

2012-12-02, 16:32

First. And there were repeated allusions to it right up until the fight against Kayaba.

Dr. Casey

2012-12-02, 16:33

First. And there were repeated allusions to it right up until the fight against Kayaba.

well excuse me princess

jk

Dauerlutscher

2012-12-02, 16:34

Well, I think that I have offended some people with what i said. It was not my intention to do that and i apologize about that. It's just that i can't honestly see what others are seeing.

Now to what I meant with flat characters and flat story. Every character is still the same how they were many many many episodes ago. No character developmet at all. It also doesn't really help that we are not getting any monologes and that we are forced too guess what the characters are feeling and thinking most of the time.
The story in the SAO arc was at least intersting because it had potential. Being trapped in a game where dying in it meant really dying in real life. There were still many flaws how it was handled, like for example that many things were just rusched.
But after the SAO arc ended and the ALO arc started it became nothing more than guy needs to rescue his wife because she will be forced to marry a jerk. Oh and I forgot, his cousin is also in love with him and has not a snowballs chance in hell to get him.
The question for me is what makes the ALO arc good? The great vilain? The deep charaters that were never really developed? Suguha and her doomed sidestory of an onsided romance that has added nothing to the actual plot?

Well if Leafa wasn't around noone could have retrieved Kirito's soul from after he was killed and revived him right? I know he would've revived eventually anyway since it's a game but there's a penalty for that and I don't know if Kirito could afford such a thing to happen.

Just replace Suguha with some other girl or guy (that would have ben even better) and he/she could have done the same. The problem here is that Suguha could have ben easily replaced and that would not change anythig at all. Maybe we would have less boob fanservice.

Dr. Casey

2012-12-02, 16:37

GDB

2012-12-02, 16:37

First. And there were repeated allusions to it right up until the fight against Kayaba.

Including outright apologizing for it before he started said fight.

Dr. Casey

2012-12-02, 16:38

I have advanced Alzheimer's, gomen

Chaos2Frozen

2012-12-02, 16:47

Just replace Suguha with some other girl or guy (that would have ben even better) and he/she could have done the same. The problem here is that Suguha could have ben easily replaced and that would not change anythig at all. Maybe we would have less boob fanservice.

Because a random new character is totally the way to do it...

Oh wait, isn't Suguha a new character as well?

Rising Dragon

2012-12-02, 16:52

Because a random new character is totally the way to do it...

Oh wait, isn't Suguha a new character as well?

Nah, she was in episode 1! :k

Chaos2Frozen

2012-12-02, 16:52

Nah, she was in episode 1! :k

Lol fair enough :p

Dengar

2012-12-02, 17:09

You know, I thought this was a story about online games and the social aspects thereof, rather than a one-dimensional "hero beats the bad guys" story.

Maybe the complainers signed up for the wrong story?

Anyway, I thought it pretty cool how Suguha was trying her very hardest to not be angry at Kirito. In the end she did get a bit angry at him, but at least she tried.

I'm not saying Kirito did anything wrong. Just that, situation like this makes people naturally inclined to get angry at the person despite them having done nothing wrong.

Oroboro

2012-12-02, 17:15

Anyway, I thought it pretty cool how Suguha was trying her very hardest to not be angry at Kirito. In the end she did get a bit angry at him, but at least she tried.

I'm not saying Kirito did anything wrong. Just that, situation like this makes people naturally inclined to get angry at the person despite them having done nothing wrong.

Yeah, Suguha is pretty clearly just lashing out, the person she's really angry at is herself. She bought too much into her own fantasy, and paid the price when it all came crashing down.

And then Kazuto feels like shit because his little sister is hurting so badly and there's nothing he can do.

It's all very... human

Dauerlutscher

2012-12-02, 17:16

Nah, you were frank and straightforward but not at all rude. You're fine.
Just in case that i really offended someone.

Because a random new character is totally the way to do it.

Oh wait, isn't Suguha a new character as well?

Who said that a different character should be a new character that just got introduced? What i meant was that Suguha could be easily replaced in this whole arc and nothing would have changed. Except that we would not have wasted so much episodes on this forced and pointless romance thing and we would have less fanservice. I will even go so far and say that if we removed her, the fanservice level in this show would drop by nearly 80% (I know that I'm exaggeratting a little). But i culd not care less about that.

You know, I thought this was a story about online games and the social aspects thereof, rather than a one-dimensional "hero beats the bad guys" story.

At the moment, it's exactly that and nothing more.

Chaos2Frozen

2012-12-02, 17:18

Who said that a different character should be a new character that just got introduced?

Because clearly the other SAO players would be playing this game long enough :rolleyes:

What i meant was that Suguha could be easily replaced in this whole arc and nothing would have changed. Except that we would not have wasted so much episodes on this forced and pointless romance thing and we would have less fanservice. I will even go so far and say that if we removed her, the fanservice level in this show would drop by nearly 80% (I know that I'm exaggeratting a little). But that's all that would change.

Okay, go ahead- who should replace her?

Anh_Minh

2012-12-02, 17:23

Okay, go ahead- who should replace her?
Kayaba. Just imagine the reveal!

Dauerlutscher

2012-12-02, 17:25

Because clearly the other SAO players would be playing this game long enough :rolleyes:
I don't think that it even matters. Tell me why it could only be her and not someone else?

Okay, go ahead- who should replace her?
Everyone.

Oroboro

2012-12-02, 17:30

Kayaba. Just imagine the reveal!

Someone fanfic this now. =o

I don't think that it even matters. Tell me why it could only be her and not someone else?

Because half of the ALO arc is Suguha's story. A tragedy surrounding a girl who believes she's the protagonist of a different type of story.

You don't have to like it, and maybe you think the story would be better if it was just Kirito rescuing Asuna, but Suguha herself is a pretty central character to her own story, and that narrative can't just be simply replaced with someone else.

justinstrife

2012-12-02, 17:34

Just in case that i really offended someone.

Who said that a different character should be a new character that just got introduced? What i meant was that Suguha could be easily replaced in this whole arc and nothing would have changed. Except that we would not have wasted so much episodes on this forced and pointless romance thing and we would have less fanservice. I will even go so far and say that if we removed her, the fanservice level in this show would drop by nearly 80% (I know that I'm exaggeratting a little). But i culd not care less about that.

At the moment, it's exactly that and nothing more.

I'm sorry that that is all you can get out of the story. As others have posted, there's a lot more to it than a hero defeating a bad guy and saving the girl...

FlareKnight

2012-12-02, 17:35

Have to say I wasn't looking forward to this. It's been clear from the start that she was going to fall in love with two guys (who happened technically to be the same guy) and get her heart broken twice. Suguha really gave her best effort to hang in there. But after that last realization can't really blame her for not being able to keep a poker face. Even though it's not really Kirito's fault, being upset isn't exactly rational. Just all came out.

Sucks for Kirito who has been desperate to go after Asuna, but now this all comes out. There isn't really anything he can say or do to fix it either. Now Suguha is in pieces and he's got more on his plate than he realized.

On a lighter note, good try by Kirito to charge through the Guardians. Sadly...didn't work. Just too many to deal with while using pretty weak equipment.

Dengar

2012-12-02, 17:38

At the moment, it's exactly that and nothing more.

So all you remember is the scenes were Kirito beats the bad guys? I guess you forgot about 20 episodes' worth of content magically?

Hooves

2012-12-02, 17:38

This helps Kirito's development as well. He always goes about solo, or with Asuna. But what about others? Others are offering their hands to help him, but he just neglects them and rushes Leroy Jenkins style for something or for Asuna. He believed he could beat anything solo-style. But I believe that death against the Guardians will help him realize that he needs to amend for neglecting everything in order to get to Asuna. And that he does need others to help him.

As well as try to make up for leaving Sugu in the dark for what he's been doing this entire time. But it's not his fault though, the blame can't entirely always be placed upon one person's lack of awareness of the situation.

Chaos2Frozen

2012-12-02, 17:39

I don't think that it even matters. Tell me why it could only be her and not someone else?

I'm not the one making bold claims that she can be 'easily replaced', and when asked to defend your point the only thing you have to say is...

Everyone.

...Solid argument there, truly.

Dr. Casey

2012-12-02, 17:41

...Solid argument there, truly.

I think he's just getting grumpy because he's tired of arguing. :heh:

kyp275

2012-12-02, 17:47

I think he's just getting grumpy because he's tired of arguing. :heh:

Well, on that particular note I can't really fault him for it, I've almost stopped looking at these threads completely since it's pretty much the same old tired arguments week in and week out.

Dark Wing

2012-12-02, 17:48

...Solid argument there, truly.

Just give it up Chaos I've long since excepted the fact that the majority of the people who watch this series (including many anime nowadays) are doing it for sole reason to find something to complain about.

Just let them complain and move on....:rolleyes:

Dengar

2012-12-02, 17:49

It happens to a lot of people. I know I've done it a couple times, and I probably will do it a couple more times in the future.

Still though, giving short replies without mentioning the basis is hard to take seriously.

kyp275

2012-12-02, 17:51

I've long since excepted the fact that the majority of the people who watch this series (including many anime nowadays) are doing it for sole reason to find something to complain about.

I've never really understood this mentality, If I dislike a show, I drop it and move on to something else, I don't continue to waste hours of my life so I can make myself miserable and complain about how miserable it is on the internet later.

Chaos2Frozen

2012-12-02, 17:52

Just give it up Chaos I've long since excepted the fact that the majority of the people who watch this series (including many anime nowadays) are doing it for sole reason to find something to complain about.

Just let them complain and move on....:rolleyes:

Don't worry about me, I'm not that invested in the series :p It's just that this one stood out.

I've never really understood this mentality, If I dislike a show, I drop it and move on to something else, I don't continue to waste hours of my life so I can make myself miserable and complain about how miserable it is on the internet later.

It depends, some times there's that one thing that you can't let go no matter how bad it is and you still hope for something...

... Like a bad relationship :p

Dark Wing

2012-12-02, 17:54

I've never really understood this mentality, If I dislike a show, I drop it and move on to something else, I don't continue to waste hours of my life so I can make myself miserable and complain about how miserable it is on the internet later.

Which should tell you they have nothing else to do with their time.

I've said it many times myself that no one is forcing them to watch a show and if you don't like it then don't watch it.

Awrya

2012-12-02, 18:02

This helps Kirito's development as well. He always goes about solo, or with Asuna. But what about others? Others are offering their hands to help him, but he just neglects them and rushes Leroy Jenkins style for something or for Asuna. He believed he could beat anything solo-style. But I believe that death against the Guardians will help him realize that he needs to amend for neglecting everything in order to get to Asuna. And that he does need others to help him.

This made me laugh. :D

He pretty much solo'd everything in SAO for 2 years and was one of the best players, not surprising he thinks he still has god status in ALO.

Though I doubt losing against the Guardians changed his mind set, when Suguha resurrected him he went like this:
"Thank you for resurrecting me, but this is my problem, I'll do it alone."
If they didn't realise their real identity, he'd attempt the quest again and die (again). Asking other players for help didn't even cross his mind.

Dauerlutscher

2012-12-02, 18:05

Because half of the ALO arc is Suguha's story. A tragedy surrounding a girl who believes she's the protagonist of a different type of story.

You don't have to like it, and maybe you think the story would be better if it was just Kirito rescuing Asuna, but Suguha herself is a pretty central character to her own story, and that narrative can't just be simply replaced with someone else.

And here is what we see different. For me, her story has nothing to do with the actual plot, so i don't see any point to it. It just wasted episodes and added forced and pointless drama. Her story could easily stand on it's own or be completely removed from this arc and it would not affect anything at all.

So all you remember is the scenes were Kirito beats the bad guys? I guess you forgot about 20 episodes' worth of content magically?
What was this content anway?

I'm sorry that that is all you can get out of the story. As others have posted, there's a lot more to it than a hero defeating a bad guy and saving the girl...

What is it exactly, this "more to it"?

I'm not the one making bold claims that she can be 'easily replaced', and when asked to defend your point the only thing you have to say is...

...Solid argument there, truly.

It's not so hard to understand what I meant. Any other player could play her role. So I don't see why it had to be especially her.

I think he's just getting grumpy because he's tired of arguing. :heh:

I admit that I'm little tired of it. And I never wanted to fight about it or drag this on for so long.
I think i made my point more than clear.
It just would be nice if someone could show me with examples about how deep the characters are and how great the plot is instead on saying like this. "So all you remember is the scenes were Kirito beats the bad guys? I guess you forgot about 20 episodes' worth of content magically?" or "there's a lot more to it than a hero defeating a bad guy and saving the girl..."

And if I hated this show I would have droped it immediately, but that is not the case. I'm still enyoing it, but there are some things that are bothering me and I have no problem with saying it instead on acting like everything is fine or just downplay them.

Chaos2Frozen

2012-12-02, 18:17

Oh believe me I understand what you mean perfectly, but humor me a little and name one character that can replace her.

Ruby Princess

2012-12-02, 18:18

Klein. It's pretty obvious that he had a man crush on Kirito. Just have to change the story so that he stalks Kirito to his house after escaping from SAO and goes to live with him.

Dengar

2012-12-02, 18:18

<long post>

It's just hard to get a read on what it is you actually want.

You give off this impression that you want it to be a straightforward one-dimensional Kirito-beats-the-bad-guys plot, so you apparently refuse to remember anything that hasn't got anything to do with it. After that, you complain about it being a straightforward one-dimensional Kirito-beats-the-bad-guys plot.

It's very confusing.

Chaos2Frozen

2012-12-02, 18:20

Klein. It's pretty obvious that he had a man crush on Kirito. Just have to change the story so that he stalks Kirito to his house after escaping from SAO and goes to live with him.

Problem, how would Klein be a guide for a game he never played and couldn't have played long enough?

erneiz_hyde

2012-12-02, 18:24

This is the very same theme explored in D.C.S.S., where the whole plot revolved essentially around the inherent unfairness of those were not chosen and finding a way to move on.

Of course, this was an incredibly unpopular show in no small part because of this uncommon theme. A lot of people considered the entire show "pointless" simply because the romantic heroine never changed and they never really further developed the main couple... even though that tied to the very theme of the work.
Ho boy you reminded me of that trainwreck. I remember hating Aisia with a passion for ruining what have been a perfectly fine ending to the first season. :mad:

Honestly, get rid of Sugou and his comedic henchmen, and have Asuna just wake up in her hospital at the same time as Kirito. Is there anything of value lost? Asuna loses one fiance that stands no chance, and Kirito is reunited with his true love and they can move on to future battles together.

The entire value of this arc for me lies in the plots (read:boobs, perhaps a few tentacles and round hips). And with how the directing's been done, I'd say that's the producer's intention as well :heh:. So would anything of value be lost? I'd say yes!

Vsin

2012-12-02, 18:37

Honestly, get rid of Sugou and his comedic henchmen, and have Asuna just wake up in her hospital at the same time as Kirito. Is there anything of value lost? Asuna loses one fiance that stands no chance, and Kirito is reunited with his true love and they can move on to future battles together.

I think this whole arc is about the journey more than the destination. We've known the destination since day one.

(Incidentally, I don't believe the parallels between these two "futile" plot threads is an accident by any means.)

I don't quite consider Sugou to be an apt comparison. Sure, the guy is a painfully stereotypical villain with comedic henchmen, but at least he's a plot device. Stuff happens because he does things. You could replace him with something like a virus, Cardinal, etc, etc but he still fulfills the purpose of holding Asuna captive. The action creates a journey, despite the inevitable conclusion.

With Lyfa/Sugu though, to me it's just an excuse for another haremette and another pair of boobs. Her existence doesn't cause Kirito to change or even reveal anything more about himself. Yes, there are points like how Kirito may not have found out about the meeting if she didn't exist, but that could be remedied by just having him intervene Celestial Being style because he's Kirito. Or to put it another way, Lyfa could be replaced completely with multiple assorted plot pointers because that's all she achieves. The other part - you know, where she's an actual person - doesn't have any impact on anything. Her interactions produce no fruit other than producing a lack of fruit, and if you consider that important then so be it.

[mod edit: removed spoilers]

Lyfa/Sugu certainly has her own story, but it's almost entirely contained within her head and it doesn't interact with the other parallel story of saving Asuna...at least not until the reveal. And the story itself is just "I love onii-chan but can't. I love Kirito but he's onii-chan." In Anime terms, Ep 17 to 21 is spent dragging out this one plot point over way too many events - again, we have a completely missing chapter because the chapter only accomplishes more of the same.

Dauerlutscher

2012-12-02, 18:45

Now it gets stupid.:rolleyes:

Oh believe me I understand what you mean perfectly, but humor me a little and name one character that can replace her.
It's fine that you understood it and I have no intention to humor you.

It's just hard to get a read on what it is you actually want.

You give off this impression that you want it to be a straightforward one-dimensional Kirito-beats-the-bad-guys plot, so you apparently refuse to remember anything that hasn't got anything to do with it. After that, you complain about it being a straightforward one-dimensional Kirito-beats-the-bad-guys plot.

It's very confusing.
That is exactly what I don't want and it's exacly that what is bothering me in this show. And I'm not refusing anything. It's just that I didn't see those "things", whatever they are, like you guys.

So again. Please give me examples of the deep characters ins this show and examples about how deep story is. It would be nice to get some.

GDB

2012-12-02, 18:46

If you haven't seen anything you wanted, why are you still with it on episode 22? Most people would drop something like that after episode 3.

Metaneo

2012-12-02, 18:48

Well, on that particular note I can't really fault him for it, I've almost stopped looking at these threads completely since it's pretty much the same old tired arguments week in and week out.

Debating that myself. Just seems to be the closer we get to the end the worse it seems to get, and this is the first board I've actually been active on. I joined back in 2009 and kept my lurker status till now for this very reason.

He pretty much solo'd everything in SAO for 2 years and was one of the best players, not surprising he thinks he still has god status in ALO.

I dont think Kirito thinks of himself as having "god status" in ALO, his battle with Eugene probably showed him that. There's a lot he doesnt know about ALO and he knows that.

Though I doubt losing against the Guardians changed his mind set, when Suguha resurrected him he went like this:
"Thank you for resurrecting me, but this is my problem, I'll do it alone."
If they didn't realise their real identity, he'd attempt the quest again and die (again). Asking other players for help didn't even cross his mind.

I dont think it's that his mind set hasnt changed, his battle with the Guardians showed him he can't do it alone, and even though he knows this, he still picks himself up and moves to try it again. But here's the thing, What else can he do? He has no friends in ALO aside from Leafa and she firmly believes beating/getting past the guardians is impossible, certainly Lou and Sakuya owe him big time, but they aren't ready yet.

I'd certainly like to see Kirito and Eugene attempt it together, that'd certainly be epic. Now what I'd like to see is Kirito get ahold of his SAO friends and tell them the situation, and tell about the Nervgear/SAO glitch. I guarentee you atleast Klein would jump at this considering his loyalty to Kirito.

That is exactly what I don't want and it's exacly that what is bothering me in this show. And I'm not refusing anything. It's just that I didn't see those "things", whatever they are, like you guys.

So again. Please give me examples of the deep characters ins this show and examples about how deep story is. It would be nice to get some.

We could give you examples. I could give you a crapload of examples. But what's the point? You have your mind made up about this show. Either your standards on what qualifies as "deep" are much too high, or ours are much too low. We can go back and forth all day long, all week long, and it would make no difference.

Maybe if you didnt require 50+ episodes of character develpment to consider a character or plot "deep," you'd be able to enjoy this show the way some of us do.

Dauerlutscher

2012-12-02, 18:52

If you haven't seen anything you wanted, why are you still with it on episode 22? Most people would drop something like that after episode 3.

Because, despite the obvious flaws, it's still enjoyable as simple shounen story. I just find it sad that it had so much potential and has not used it.

Chaos2Frozen

2012-12-02, 18:53

It's fine that you understood it and I have no intention to humor you.

Not so easy when you're asked to prove your point huh?

Its easy to say anybody can replace so-and-so... Its something else when you're asked to actually say who.

Dauerlutscher

2012-12-02, 18:58

Not so easy when you're asked to prove your point huh?

Its easy to say anybody can replace so-and-so... Its something else when you're asked to actually say who.

It's easy. Replace her with any random guy/girl at the beginnig of ALO and make him Kiritos friend and nothing would have changed. It had not be especially Suguha in that role. That's the point.
So the question is why must it be especially Suguha in that place of the role of his friend in this arc, except to add a pointless and forced drama that Kirito is her cousin who will never return her feelings?

GDB

2012-12-02, 19:00

Yet, other than not liking what happened to her, there's no reason it didn't have to be her either. Funny how that works, huh?

Also, Suguha gives a connection to Kirito, since she started playing to understand him better. Wouldn't have that with some random.

Metaneo

2012-12-02, 19:02

Not so easy when you're asked to prove your point huh?

Its easy to say anybody can replace so-and-so... Its something else when you're asked to actually say who.

I dont get the "replacing a character with someone else" thing. I just watch shows, I dont write, or know anything about writing, that's probably why. But honest question here: What exactly does the whole thing prove?

Yeah sure, go make a great argument that Suguha can be replaced by someone, what have you proved exactly?

Oroboro

2012-12-02, 19:03

It's easy. Replace her with any random guy/girl at the beginnig of ALO and make him Kiritos friend and nothing would have changed. It had not be especially Suguha in that role. That's the point.

But that IS the point. Because running right alongside Kirito's "Save the girl" narrative, is Suguha's own story. And her story isn't about Kirito, it's about herself.

You don't like Suguha's story? That's fine. Could Kirito's "Save the girl" story be done with any random guide? Yes. Maybe you like that story better, and would rather all the focus be put there. That's fine.

But the only person who can star in Suguha's story is Suguha, and if you chop that away, well, you chop away half of the story being told.

Chaos2Frozen

2012-12-02, 19:07

It's easy. Replace her with any random guy/girl at the beginnig of ALO and make him Kiritos friend and nothing would have changed. It had not be especially Suguha in that role. That's the point.

What's stopping them from being 'easily replaced' as well? Also if you remembered my earlier post to you:

Because a random new character is totally the way to do it...

Oh wait, isn't Suguha a new character as well?

Who said that a different character should be a new character that just got introduced?

...well apparently you did.

In the end, this is nothing more than you not liking Suguha, and wanting her to be replaced by someone else with no story.

Makender

2012-12-02, 19:10

I suppose Dauerlutscher is arguing that Suguha's story gets in the way of the development of Kirito and Asuna's story? In a certain sense I suppose this is true as screen time is taken up to bust up some raid on a meeting of leaders that Sugu is angsting about that could be spent on developing Kirito's story and character for example. I guess its just a preference of whether one likes character development to be spread out amongst characters or to be concentrated and really well done?

GDB

2012-12-02, 19:13

Metaneo

2012-12-02, 19:16

But that IS the point. Because running right alongside Kirito's "Save the girl" narrative, is Suguha's own story. And her story isn't about Kirito, it's about herself.

You don't like Suguha's story? That's fine. Could Kirito's "Save the girl" story be done with any random guide? Yes. Maybe you like that story better, and would rather all the focus be put there. That's fine.

But the only person who can star in Suguha's story is Suguha, and if you chop that away, well, you chop away half of the story being told.

Quite true, Suguha is a main character in this arc. She's not like Klein or Agil in the previous arc who only showed up every few episodes. She's been in every episode, oh and she's one of the few characters who's point of view we see aside from Kirito's.

And I dont think the drama involving her feelings for Kirito/Kazuto are all that forced, sure there are probably better set-ups for this but also much, much worse. I could have told you Kirito's "little sister" either had feelings for him or was just simply fond of him back in episode 3.

Makender

2012-12-02, 19:22

But clearly Kirito cannot do this alone. He's going to need a lot of help. Cue the raid of two factions he just saved, and funded with his leftover SAO money (which for some reason he didn't think would benefit getting himself ancient weapons and armor), due solely to the fact that Leafa was with him.

It could have just as easily worked out as a lonesome journey where against all odds he is able to overcome overwhelming adversity. Saving the two factions is just a plot device to lend Kirito help under the assumption that he needs help. With some strategic planning on how to fight the guardians (along with a truckload of health pots :heh:) Kirito may very well be able to overcome that raid instance if they so chose to write it that way. All the other incidental stuff does is introduce more side characters that people may or may not care about.

GDB

2012-12-02, 19:24

Chaos2Frozen

2012-12-02, 19:26

Hmmm... nothing else but the main characters/favorite pairing should matter...? Why does that sound familiar-

Oh shit it's the Nanoha series all over again :eyespin: !

And even some of the old timers are back :eek:!

relentlessflame

2012-12-02, 19:29

Or to put it another way, Lyfa could be replaced completely with multiple assorted plot pointers because that's all she achieves. The other part - you know, where she's an actual person - doesn't have any impact on anything. Her interactions produce no fruit other than producing a lack of fruit, and if you consider that important then so be it.The "fruit" it produced is within her own heart, and for us as viewers to observe. It's a story about a girl who had to give up on her first love in the most bittersweet of ways. It is as much of a story in this arc as anything going on with Kirito and Asuna.

Basically, you're saying "your feelings for Kazuto never mattered because we (in the audience) knew all along that you stood no chance, so all you're doing is wasting our time". Is it really that hard to empathize with the story you're seeing unfold in "her life"? (Well, I guess it's pointless for me to ask this...)

Lyfa/Sugu certainly has her own story, but it's almost entirely contained within her head and it doesn't interact with the other parallel story of saving Asuna...at least not until the reveal.It's completely connected to Asuna from start to finish. We get to know Suguha through the context of her rekindled relationship with Kazuto as he mourns his lack of power over Asuna's "imprisonment". She encourages him to be strong despite the fact that she realizes her love now will need to be abandoned (because any chance she had is gone). She decides to still be strong and be there for Kazuto as his sister while she comes face to face with the (apparently unconscious) girl who "stole" his heart. Meanwhile, in an effort to move on, she tries to focus more on her growing relationship with Kirito, who only came to ALO because he's hoping to find Asuna.

The two stories are fully interconnected, and it's a lot more than what was "contained within her head".

And the story itself is just "I love onii-chan but can't. I love Kirito but he's onii-chan." In Anime terms, Ep 17 to 21 is spent dragging out this one plot point over way too many events.What actually happened is way more elaborate and nuanced than that trite summary. You've over-trivialized many episodes worth of development because you just don't care for them, not because there isn't anything happening there. And yet you rationalize Sugou because... because?

I don't quite consider Sugou to be an apt comparison. Sure, the guy is a painfully stereotypical villain with comedic henchmen, but at least he's a plot device. Stuff happens because he does things. You could replace him with something like a virus, Cardinal, etc, etc but he still fulfills the purpose of holding Asuna captive. The action creates a journey, despite the inevitable conclusion.Even if you don't like Suguha as a character, she at least serves as a plot device that creates a journey that leads to a conclusion. But there's more to plot than just the physical plot of going from Point A to Point B (although she contributes to that too!). Indeed, Sugou could probably be replaced by another plot device that manages to prevent Asuna's release if you really wanted to. The story of Suguha's heartbreak requires Suguha.

Suguha's story has every element of a story that fully stands on its on. It's just intertwined in this story so that two connected stories are being told at the same time. You can't lop off one of the two stories and be like "this one doesn't matter!". It's as much a part of this story as everything else.

Again, to be clear, I'm not saying you have to like it.

Makender

2012-12-02, 19:32

I don't know, I'm pretty sure a lot of people, myself included, would be beyond miffed if Kirito soloed what a raid in ancient equipment couldn't, in the equivalent of vendor trash. Especially after seeing how closely matched he was to the Salamander General.

Isn't ALO supposed to be skill based? I mean he was one-two shotting enemies more or less easily with that vendor trash and there was some strange sequence at the end before Kirito died where he seemed to be under the assumption that if he could reach the top he could end the raid. Honestly, it would have been kind of badass to struggle through it alone where others have failed as a group. Reminds me of sequences like in Metal Gear and MGS4 where snake has to crawl across an electrified floor in an individual effort of pain and suffering to accomplish his goals. Snake is scarred, but mentally-fortified after such a harrowing experience which is a route the writers could have went with Kirito. I guess we just have to deal with teen angst now.

GDB

2012-12-02, 19:35

and there was some strange sequence at the end before Kirito died where he seemed to be under the assumption that if he could reach the top he could end the raid.

Which is kind of odd, if you think about it. What makes him think that? If that's all it took, wouldn't any raid of considerable size already done it? Just meatshield around someone and you're guaranteed to get someone up there. Clearly that can't be the end of it.

Reckoner

2012-12-02, 19:38

Suguha's story has every element of a story that fully stands on its on. It's just intertwined in this story so that two connected stories are being told at the same time. You can't lop off one of the two stories and be like "this one doesn't matter!". It's as much a part of this story as everything else.

Again, to be clear, I'm not saying you have to like it.

I think the entire argument here can be settled on this one point and I'm surprised so many people are missing the point you and others have been pointing out.

Many people do not care for Suguha's story and obviously nothing we say is going to change their minds. However, the disagreement stems from the assertion that somehow she could be written out of the story and that'd there be a negligible effect. That's simply untrue because this story has basically been all Suguha, not just how Kirito saves damsel in distress Asuna from the evil clutches of Suguo. What gives this arc its weight is Suguha's story more so than Kirito's, which isn't terribly interesting anyways.

This is not to say that there isn't something to be said about the frustration of some viewers here. A lot of viewers came to like SAO because of Kirito x Asuna, which dominated a lot of the first arc, and this arc feels like a cheap way to deprive them of their relationship in the story we are seeing so far. In that sense, you could see Suguha's story as an unnecessary diversion if your only goal in this series is to watch Kirito and Asuna. I still do not think this holds much weight in the end though because the story has definitely been about more than just Kirito and Asuna's romance.

Makender

2012-12-02, 19:48

I still do not think this holds much weight in the end though because the story has definitely been about more than just Kirito and Asuna's romance.

I think it seems like unnecessary diversions because Kirito's ultimate goal in ALO is to save Asuna and Sugu seems to be distracting him from that goal. In SAO, the goal was to escape the game and over the course of that goal the story focused on Kirito's and Asuna's relationship (with asides for Lizbeth, Silica, Sachi and others which is kind of like filler, but ultimately serve to develop Kirito as a character). Honestly, I don't really mind it, but I don't see why Sugu couldn't be written out. It just makes it a detoured grind toward Kirito's ultimate goal. Concentrating on Kirito's journey does not have to be one-dimensional either with effective writing. Sugu's part of the story just seems to be frills to what Kirito is trying to do.

Chaos2Frozen

2012-12-02, 19:51

I think it seems like unnecessary diversions because Kirito's ultimate goal in ALO is to save Asuna and Sugu seems to be distracting him from that goal. Honestly, I don't really mind it, but I don't see why Sugu couldn't be written out. It just makes it a detoured grind toward Kirito's ultimate goal. Concentrating on Kirito's journey does not have to be one-dimensional either with effective writing. Sugu's part of the story just seems to be frills to what Kirito is trying to do.

Because it's not ALL about Kirito, not everyone exist solely as a stepping stone for him.

Dauerlutscher

2012-12-02, 19:51

Yet, other than not liking what happened to her, there's no reason it didn't have to be her either. Funny how that works, huh?
It would atleast not added this pointless and forced drama about her and not wasted episodes.

Also, Suguha gives a connection to Kirito, since she started playing to understand him better. Wouldn't have that with some random.
Her story doesn't matter to the over all plot at all.

That her whole existantance in this arc was pointless and was only used to waste episodes on forced drama.

But that IS the point. Because running right alongside Kirito's "Save the girl" narrative, is Suguha's own story. And her story isn't about Kirito, it's about herself.

You don't like Suguha's story? That's fine. Could Kirito's "Save the girl" story be done with any random guide? Yes. Maybe you like that story better, and would rather all the focus be put there. That's fine.

But the only person who can star in Suguha's story is Suguha, and if you chop that away, well, you chop away half of the story being told.
It's exactly that choping away her story would not change anything to the plot, that makes her story pointless.

What's stopping them from being 'easily replaced' as well? Have more influence on Kirito and the plot.

...well apparently you did.
What i meant was who said that a different character should be a new character that just got introduced in this episode or an episode ago.
He/she would obviously be introduced at the beginning of this arc, but without the baggage of this fiasoc of forced drama.

In the end, this is nothing more than you not liking Suguha.
Suguha is a pretty nice girl. It's just the role she is playing that is annyoing me.

I suppose Dauerlutscher is arguing that Suguha's story gets in the way of the development of Kirito and Asuna's story? In a certain sense I suppose this is true as screen time is taken up to bust up some raid on a meeting of leaders that Sugu is angsting about that could be spent on developing Kirito's story and character for example. I guess its just a preference of whether one likes character development to be spread out amongst characters or to be concentrated and really well done?

That's the point. It would have ben ok if this thing with Suguha would not have taken so much episode and would not have ben so blantaly used for the sake of drama.
There are couple of other posts that also explain what I'm trying to say.
For example Vsin or from Klashikari:

With Lyfa/Sugu though, to me it's just an excuse for another haremette and another pair of boobs. Her existence doesn't cause Kirito to change or even reveal anything more about himself. Yes, there are points like how Kirito may not have found out about the meeting if she didn't exist, but that could be remedied by just having him intervene Celestial Being style because he's Kirito. Or to put it another way, Lyfa could be replaced completely with multiple assorted plot pointers because that's all she achieves. The other part - you know, where she's an actual person - doesn't have any impact on anything. Her interactions produce no fruit other than producing a lack of fruit, and if you consider that important then so be it.

[mod edit: removed spoilers]

Lyfa/Sugu certainly has her own story, but it's almost entirely contained within her head and it doesn't interact with the other parallel story of saving Asuna...at least not until the reveal. And the story itself is just "I love onii-chan but can't. I love Kirito but he's onii-chan." In Anime terms, Ep 17 to 21 is spent dragging out this one plot point over way too many events - again, we have a completely missing chapter because the chapter only accomplishes more of the same.

This thread has 12 pages and everything that had to be said was said a couple of times already. For me, this arguing for arguing sake is just as pointless like this Suguha story thing. It's tiring, it doesn't go anywhere and I have no intention to continue with this debate. So lets move on from it. It has ended anyway.

Oroboro

2012-12-02, 19:57

Her story doesn't matter to the over all plot at all.

Suguha's. Story. IS The. Plot.

You don't have to like that, but that's the truth.

Makender

2012-12-02, 19:58

Because it's not ALL about Kirito, not everyone exist solely as a stepping stone for him.

Why can't it be? Side characters can serve as one time stories that develop Kirito and his story without becoming the new focus of the story. Honestly, having two focuses (unless really well written) can just serve to bog down the other focus. Then we just have two muddled through stories.

Rising Dragon

2012-12-02, 19:59

The problem with trying to use a different character for Suguha's role in Kirito's quest, one who isn't completely new, is that those characters would have to be from Sword Art Online.

None of which, if Sugou's taunting was any indication, would be all that interested in getting into another game like SAO only 2 months after the ordeal. Suguha has a good reason for being in the game to help and having enough playtime to be of any use to Kirito skills-wise. The only others who would be at the same level are Agil, Klein, and Asuna. None of which are available, it would seem.

Chaos2Frozen

2012-12-02, 20:00

It would atleast not added this pointless and forced drama about her and not wasted episodes.

Her story doesn't matter to the over all plot at all.

That her whole existantance in this arc was pointless and was only used to waste episodes on forced drama.

It's exactly that choping away her story would not change anything to the plot, that makes her story pointless.

Oh? So things that you don't like are not part of the plot? Or rather if they don't help Kirito they're not necessary?

There's more than one story being told here in case you haven't realized it.

Have more influence on Kirito and the plot.

Yup, Nanoha series all over again, nothing but the favorite pairing matters.

What i meant was who said that a different character should be a new character that just got introduced in this episode or an episode ago.
He/she would obviously be introduced at the beginning of this arc, but without the baggage of this fiasoc of forced drama.

Yes, this magically character that does everything right and give all of his/her support to only Kirito's cause and nothing else.

Why can't it be? Side characters can serve as one time stories that develop Kirito and his story without becoming the new focus of the story. Honestly, having two focuses (unless really well written) can just serve to bog down the other focus. Then we just have two muddled through stories.

Because it shows that the world does not revolve around two people.

kyp275

2012-12-02, 20:04

Suguha's. Story. IS The. Plot.

You don't have to like that, but that's the truth.

QFT

Why can't it be?

Because Kawhara Reki, not Makender, picked up the pen and wrote SAO, and as far as Kawahara Reki is concerned, the story of the SAO series is not solely about Kirito.

relentlessflame

2012-12-02, 20:09

Because it's not ALL about Kirito, not everyone exist solely as a stepping stone for him.
It may be worth conceding that, in the first arc (at least of the anime), this basically was Kirito's story. The narrative was essentially only told from his perspective (minus brief glimpses). Now, in the second arc, this story is told from three different perspectives: Suguha, Kirito, and Asuna (in approximately that order of magnitude). Each one is the protagonist of their own story taking place in ALO. Each story is interrelated and intertwined.

Whether each person thinks the split perspective and multiple concurrent story thing is well-done or not... to me that's a separate discussion. As has been mentioned, this is perhaps a bit harder to follow than it would be -- for example -- in a book, because the anime is almost obsessively following a "show don't tell" principle, and rarely uses internal monologue except when absolutely necessary. So you could almost assume that the story is following "the camera operator's perspective", but the camera is still following those three people.

Makender

2012-12-02, 20:10

Because it shows that the world does not revolve around two people.

It's a basic and obvious assumption that the world doesn't revolve around two people. You don't have to throw in a bunch of different focuses to show that. The point of telling a story is to focus on some character and little side stories that develop solely on those characters show that there are things going on in the world, but those things serve the writers point in developing a certain character. Would you like it if suddenly in the story they enter into a filler arc to focus on some new anime specific character while Kirito has to deal with Asuna and Sugu? Why don't we throw in a nuclear attack on Japan that Kirito has to deal with too? That'll really show that the world is out there.

Reckoner

2012-12-02, 20:11

I think it seems like unnecessary diversions because Kirito's ultimate goal in ALO is to save Asuna and Sugu seems to be distracting him from that goal. In SAO, the goal was to escape the game and over the course of that goal the story focused on Kirito's and Asuna's relationship (with asides for Lizbeth, Silica, and others which is kind of like filler). Honestly, I don't really mind it, but I don't see why Sugu couldn't be written out. It just makes it a detoured grind toward Kirito's ultimate goal. Concentrating on Kirito's journey does not have to be one-dimensional either with effective writing. Sugu's part of the story just seems to be frills to what Kirito is trying to do.

Again, if this is how you feel about Suguha then there's nothing to be said. However the point is that the core of this story thus far has largely revolved around Suguha's point of view and feelings. Writing her character out is writing out most of the story of the arc. If you're going to go that far then there is almost no point to the ALO arc since neither Kirito nor Asuna is getting that much character development.

All of this has been thematically consistent with the way the show has built up its narrative regarding VMMORPG's and their social aspect. Kirito saving Asuna is not the main goal of the story, that is the character Kirito's main goal (Who again isn't even the main perspective of the arc). Moreover, until this very last scene Kriito has been intently focused on his quest to save Asuna. He used Lyfa to help him get to the place he needed to be. Without her Kirito could not have learned about the game that fast. So in reality, she has not been a diversion to Kirito's goal and her character is definitely not a diversion to the story's narrative.

Whether you like it or not, once more, is entirely up to you.

It may be worth conceding that, in the first arc (at least of the anime), this basically was Kirito's story. The narrative was essentially only told from his perspective (minus brief glimpses). Now, in the second arc, this story is told from three different perspectives: Suguha, Kirito, and Asuna (in approximately that order of magnitude). Each one is the protagonist of their own story taking place in ALO. Each story is interrelated and intertwined.

Whether each person thinks the split perspective and multiple concurrent story thing is well-done or not... to me that's a separate discussion.

Yeah Kirito is the main character afterall and part of the transition to ALO, which might be jarring to many, is that suddenly he is not the dominant point of view for the arc. I think it's more jarring in anime form though, since after completing SAO you would pick up an entirely new book whereas this anime jsut continued right where it left off with SAO. The LN's feel like you're moving onto something new, whereas this should be true for the anime it just kinda flows uninterrupted without that sense of "I'm reading an entirely new adventure"

Chaos2Frozen

2012-12-02, 20:11

It may be worth conceding that, in the first arc, this basically was Kirito's story. The narrative was essentially only told from his perspective. Now, in the second arc, this story is told from three different perspectives: Suguha, Kirito, and Asuna (in approximately that order of magnitude). Each one is the protagonist of their own story taking place in ALO. Each story is interrelated and intertwined.

No arguments here- my statement was solely referring to ALO.

Makender

2012-12-02, 20:14

Because Kawhara Reki, not Makender, picked up the pen and wrote SAO, and as far as Kawahara Reki is concerned, the story of the SAO series is not solely about Kirito.

Yup and he's done pretty well with it too. I also know that people have complained about all the confusing timeskips and plot holes that has caused him to go back and try to rewrite the series. Just saying.

Writing her character out is writing out most of the story of the arc. If you're going to go that far then there is almost no point to the ALO arc since neither Kirito nor Asuna is getting that much character development.

So then you change the point of the ALO arc to give the character development to Kirito and Asuna. Very simple.

Chaos2Frozen

2012-12-02, 20:18

It's a basic and obvious assumption that the world doesn't revolve around two people. You don't have to throw in a bunch of different focuses to show that.

Yes... Yes you do.

The world... The story world, exist only as far as the author putting focus on them. If all those other people and things serve only for Kirito and Asuna, then yes within the context of that story- the world does revolve around two people.

The point of telling a story is to focus on some character and little side stories that develop solely on those characters show that there are things going on in the world, but those things serve the writers point in developing a certain character. Would you like it if suddenly in the story they enter into a filler arc to focus on some new anime specific character while Kirito has to deal with Asuna and Sugu. Why don't we throw in a nuclear attack on Japan that Kirito has to deal with too? That'll really show that the world is out there.

Except Suguha's plot line was set up from the beginning so your point is moot, plus it runs parallel to Kirito's story so it doesn't derail the progression of the story unlike your examples.

Why can't your focus on some other characters include her?

Dauerlutscher

2012-12-02, 20:19

Suguha's. Story. IS The. Plot.

You don't have to like that, but that's the truth.

Nope. It's just a subplot that has absolutely nothing to do with the actual plot.

Oh? So things that you don't like are not part of the plot? Or rather if they don't help Kirito they're not necessary?

There's more than one story being told here in case you haven't realized it.

Yup, Nanoha series all over again, nothing but the favorite pairing matters.

Yes, this magically character that does everything right and give all of his/her support to only Kirito's cause.

Dude. It seems to me that really want to start a pointless fight for no reason. Just because someone does't really give damn about a pointless subplot who you actually like and that added nothing to the overall story and that wasted many episodes. I made it pretty clear what i don't like about it and I think many people could at least understand why it was bothering me. So just take a chill pill and relax. Don't talk to me before you did that.

So again. I will move on from this pointless debate and this was my last post regarding this topic.