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Pellissier
2013-04-25, 15:31
Thread for the discussion of Science & Technology in Suisei no Gargantia. Feel free to elaborate theories about the Alliance, Chamber, Ledo and the world he comes from, how the Earth could experience an ice age and then become a water world... and so on.

Thread Guidelines

If required, please use spoiler tags (with appropriate titles) if your comments are based on the latest episode or raws (or any non-anime source).Don't forget to use a title for the spoiler!Please include the episode number or some such title in the spoiler tag (spoiler=episode number) since it at least helps others to identify if they may or may not have seen that particular episode. A spoiler without such a title is almost as bad as no spoiler since accidents do occur and it isn't rare for people to use spoiler tags in order to save space instead of hiding spoilers.



Please keep discussion about plot and storylines in the relevant Episode Discussion threads, not here.



Be polite to your fellow forum members and try and keep the discussion on topic and above all, enjoy.

LKK
2013-04-25, 17:03
Do you think the Alliance has faster than light (FTL) technology?*

I ask because having FTL technology is crucial to how soon or even if Ledo could expect a rescue. In episode 1, we saw the Alliance use what looked like an artificially generated wormhole to reach the Hidxxx stronghold. No FTL tech evident there as far as I could tell. But without FTL communication technology, Ledo's distress signal may not even reach the Alliance within his lifetime.

I know this is anime, and science logic doesn't always apply. But the series has done a good job so far of convincing me that the writers care about science. Which makes me wonder just what they're going to do about the fact that Earth is so far from Alliance territory that Chamber couldn't identify their location on his star charts.

* Let's pretend that FTL is somehow possible, okay? :D

Jan-Poo
2013-04-25, 17:40
So basically you are asking if they can achieve FTL locally?

Else the exploitation of wormholes can lead to an effective FTL travel without breaking the theory of relativity.

There is no evidence that they can surpass the speed of light with their engines, but since they have wormhole technology is that even necessary? They can still beat light in speed by taking the shortcuts the wormholes provide.

Their communication devices most likely use the same wormhole technology on a lesser scale. A black hole can be as little as an electron including its event horizon. I wouldn't put past them to have black holes in their radio devices.

LKK
2013-04-25, 18:15
Their communication devices most likely use the same wormhole technology on a lesser scale. A black hole can be as little as an electron including its event horizon. I wouldn't put past them to have black holes in their radio devices.
The communication devices are what I'm primarily interested in at the moment. Without something, Ledo's distress signal probably wouldn't reach the Alliance within his lifetime. I hadn't thought of the possibility of lesser scale wormhole technology. I'll have to consider the implications of that. Thanks!

Edit: Forgot to say that I agree wormhole technology makes FTL unnecessary.

Gravitas Free Zone
2013-04-25, 18:43
Is there any source material out there regarding the mechanism that Chamber uses to levitate? Gravity manipulation of some sort would seem to be the most handwavish answer.

Jan-Poo
2013-04-25, 19:04
I might be mistaken but that floater ball screams "gravity control" to me, besides I think that creating wormholes necessarily requires gravity manipulation technology.

However... Avalon is composed of several colonies disposed around rotating circles. This seems to imply that rather than artificial gravity they use the centrifugal force to simulate gravity.

Of course since this is decidedly more cost-efficient it might simply mean that they'd rather not waste energy if they can.

Algent
2013-04-26, 11:33
I wouldn't put past them to have black holes in their radio devices.

If they had that or quantum entanglement based communications there is now way Red would have lost contact with Avalon.

TimeSkip
2013-04-26, 15:54
If they had that or quantum entanglement based communications there is now way Red would have lost contact with Avalon.

There is one possibility. Avalon is not where it's used to be.

Their all all out attack failed miserably. They may have been fleeing from the Hideauze.

willyvereb
2013-04-27, 14:39
If they had that or quantum entanglement based communications there is now way Red would have lost contact with Avalon.Well, even those are pretty useless if you don't know the position of the one you'd want to contact.

I mean it's like shooting into the dark.
Even though you have a theoretical rifle that can instantly send bullets anywhere you want, it's useless unless you know the location of the target.

Same with wormhole-based communication.
Radio-waves spread at near lightspeed.
Which is insufficient to cross interstellar distances under a short time.
So the wormhole channels probably only useful up to the range of a few lightseconds.
Now, the Milky Way Galaxy is at least 100 million lightyears wide.
Randomly pasting through the entire thing would take an eternity of time.

Remember that the Galactic Alliance no longer knows the location of the Earth.
Same goes in reverse.
If Ledo is on Earth he has no way to know the location of Avalon.
Not to mention that Avalon is most likely on a constant move.
There's also the possibility that this "wormhole communication" has a certain range, a maximum distance for the wormholes' exit to reach. With the Alliance's forces being out of this range.

And of course this theorizes the Galactic Human Alliance uses wormhole based communication in the first place.
We just don't know anything about their communication aside from apparently that working FTL.

Jan-Poo
2013-04-27, 16:24
Hey, the Milky Way is 100-120 thousands (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milky_way) lightyears wide let's not exaggerate!

In addition I don't believe that they don't know where Earth is to begin with, because apparently Chamber had in his database enough information to determine they were on earth simply observing the sky. As long as the alliance has a map of the milky way and info of how the sky looked from Earth they should be able to determine Earth's position, no matter where they are.

And let's even say that somehow they lost the info of Earth's position and of the sky map as it could be seen from there while still having the info on the solar system itself, Chamber should still be able to determine his location observing the sky, provided that he has a map of the milky way.


Moreover a hypothetical wormhole communication technology would imply that the entrance and exit of the "tunnel" are already connected to begin with and that they remain constantly connected. It doesn't matter where you go, as long as the "thread" that ties the two wormholes isn't cut you should be able to communicate even if you don't know each other's positions.

apotheosis
2013-04-28, 00:24
Actually, based on our current understanding spooky action at a distance (quantam entanglement) would imply you do NOT need to know where the other "side" is. Of course its all theoretical.

I don't recall any FTL comm though? All of the communications were ship to ship in the battle as far I remember.

MeoTwister5
2013-04-28, 04:29
So I was wondering... considering that the bio luminescent algal blooms on the surface of the oceans apparently generate enough energy to help power the ships and propel them forward, it might not be a stretch to imagine that Chamber can devise a way to get energy from such a power source.

taofd
2013-04-29, 06:52
You guys seem to be missing an important point regarding locating Ledo.

Why would they even be searching for him? They probably assumed he was KIA. Not to mention, the way their the GA is structured, there is no reason for them to expend so much energy in finding one individual.

Jan-Poo
2013-04-29, 07:26
The problem is not that they aren't coming, the problem is that they aren't answering.

There doesn't seem to be a logical reason as to why they shouldn't answer to his distress call. They really aren't the kind of people that would rather not hurt his feelings by telling him "sorry we decided to leave you there".

Ledo has actually some important information to tell them. If they simply decided to ignore him, then they are just stupid.

ReddyRedWolf
2013-04-29, 10:23
Interesting tidbit from the doctor Ledo talked to. He seems to imply at least before Earthers and Spacers parted ways they had Artificial Intelligences but they lost the technology due to the collapse of civilization. I'm not sure if it is historical accurate or not but it is plausible.

Which begs the question if there is some preserved AI on Earth waiting to be activated.

MeisterBabylon
2013-04-30, 09:36
CHAMBER IS AWESOME.

Or maybe the suit is awesome.

BUT WHATEVER! Countless defense scientists would massecre for even 1% of his capabilities. Best of all, Chamber is advanced enough for me to wonder just how on Earth does his weapons function?

Which then puts into perspective, that all that technology... couldn't best the Flower Tyranids Hideauze. :p

Endless Soul
2013-04-30, 09:56
So....just how do organic creatures move around in space?

Endless "Space farts" Soul

Jan-Poo
2013-04-30, 10:12
So....just how do organic creatures move around in space?

Endless "Space farts" Soul

Now that's actually a very good question.
We see the machine calibers moving around a planet in a very short time and the snails follow them.
They must have been traveling at several thousand Km/hr.
I can only speculate that they have some kind of space distortion ability or gravity manipulation. Propulsion is out of the question, we didn't see any kind of discharge and it would be decidedly impractical for biological beings.

Gravitas Free Zone
2013-05-02, 10:07
Meanwhile, on reddit, this conveniently-timed question about the weather on a planet that is all ocean (http://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/1djbmu/what_would_weather_patterns_on_an_ocean_planet_be/).

mikeomni
2013-05-03, 09:34
I might be mistaken but that floater ball screams "gravity control" to me, besides I think that creating wormholes necessarily requires gravity manipulation technology.

However... Avalon is composed of several colonies disposed around rotating circles. This seems to imply that rather than artificial gravity they use the centrifugal force to simulate gravity.

Of course since this is decidedly more cost-efficient it might simply mean that they'd rather not waste energy if they can.

The floater ball reminds me of micro-black hole propulsion they use in Ian Douglas' Star Carrier series. The visible ball and rings are probably the containment field and inside they turn it off and on to change direction. It would need a pretty advanced AI to steer the thing, hence Chamber.

Weren't they trying to make some with the LHC? MC must have insane batteries if it's running on reserve power.

If they had that or quantum entanglement based communications there is now way Red would have lost contact with Avalon.

Actually, based on our current understanding spooky action at a distance (quantam entanglement) would imply you do NOT need to know where the other "side" is. Of course its all theoretical.

I don't recall any FTL comm though? All of the communications were ship to ship in the battle as far I remember.

If the technology is similar to other popular fiction, it's probably not quantum entanglement since it's supposed to not be affected by distance or location. If they're doing it like Stargate, you send the radio signal through the wormhole to the other side. If there are no relays where it exits or a break in the chain to the repeaters the Alliance might not get the signal.

I still wonder how Chamber can't get a fix on his location. He has enough data to identify the elements of the solar system. I guess if you go far enough across the galaxy, the stars you thought were still there being viewed from a spiral arm might have long been gone when you get to the actual location. So you might be constantly navigating on local group stars. If the FTL technology is wormholes and these are not moving, that would be your fixed point, so an accurate/up to date star map from any direction is less important. Chamber would have to do some fancy long simulations to extrapolate his location. The stars he knows might be very faint wherever the Sun is in the galaxy.

Jan-Poo
2013-05-03, 11:58
From the official site there are these images showing Avalon and explaining the functions of all of its parts.

http://plonq.org/up/5183eb1e4e5b7.jpg

http://plonq.org/up/5183eb7179f74.jpg

They've been on my hard disk for a while because I wanted to translate them first, but I got demoralized since the resolution is too low and that makes it hard to recognize the most difficult Kanji.

I've only got so far as getting from the first one "supermagnetic shield thrust reverser" but I miss a kanji.

Maybe someone with a better knowledge of Japanese can provide translations.

duckroll
2013-05-06, 09:17
From the official site there are these images showing Avalon and explaining the functions of all of its parts.

http://plonq.org/up/5183eb1e4e5b7.jpg

http://plonq.org/up/5183eb7179f74.jpg

They've been on my hard disk for a while because I wanted to translate them first, but I got demoralized since the resolution is too low and that makes it hard to recognize the most difficult Kanji.

I've only got so far as getting from the first one "supermagnetic shield thrust reverser" but I miss a kanji.

Maybe someone with a better knowledge of Japanese can provide translations.

Sorry, I forgot we have a tech thread too. Triple posting here too! >_<

About Avalon:

At the top of the structure is a Super Electromagenetic Shield which doubles as a Thrust Reverser, followed by Electromagnetic Shield Retention Rings holding it in place. Then there is a Ultra High Density Solid of Revolution with an Accretion Disc around it.

In the residential zone, there are two sets of 12 Revolving Residential Areas each. These are held in place with Residential Area Support Rings. "Filter Sails" are installed in the space between the residential areas and the plasma running through the center. The sails are made of a film which protects the residential areas from harmful radiation emitting from the plasma.

At the bottom of the structure are Power Control Rings followed by Plasma Acceleration Rings at the very bottom.

Gravitas Free Zone
2013-05-06, 09:24
That really does look like they're hauling a small black hole around with them.

It occurs to me that if their tech level is such, that the need to find a habitable planet should not be so critical aside from the psychological benefit. And, well, more room to walk/fly around on.

duckroll
2013-05-06, 09:34
Yeah I do agree that "Ultra High Density Solid of Revolution" seems to be their techspeak for "Artificial Black Hole". Maybe they felt that since Black Holes are named as such right now because we don't really know what they are, it would be more appropriate to use a general descriptive term for what the object actually is, since the people building such a structure would view it as such in practical terms instead of an unknown entity.

Jan-Poo
2013-05-06, 09:34
Sorry, I forgot we have a tech thread too. Triple posting here too! >_<

About Avalon:

At the top of the structure is a Super Electromagenetic Shield which doubles as a Thrust Reverser, followed by Electromagnetic Shield Retention Rings holding it in place. Then there is a Ultra High Density Solid of Revolution with an Accretion Disc around it.

In the residential zone, there are two sets of 12 Revolving Residential Areas each. These are held in place with Residential Area Support Rings. "Filter Sails" are installed in the space between the residential areas and the plasma running through the center. The sails are made of a film which protects the residential areas from harmful radiation emitting from the plasma.

At the bottom of the structure are Power Control Rings followed by Plasma Acceleration Rings at the very bottom.

Thank you Duckroll!


Certainly this whole technology is pretty hard to understand, and perhaps it isn't meant to be.

All that stuff actually exist, but the how it can exist in such configuration eludes me.

For example, what prevents the various parts of this colony from collapsing into that black hole?

How are those containment rings generated and by what?
Why thrust reversal? Why do you even need that?


Perhaps I'm wrong, but I have the feeling that this is mostly technobabble :heh:

Gravitas Free Zone
2013-05-06, 09:44
It could be a fairly small black hole (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_hole). Their structures would just have to be constructed at a reasonable distance. (Which, considering that fairly low-mass black holes are still going to generate gravitational forces on the scale of planetoids, is still a really big structure, considering how the "blades" seem to reach quite close to the singularity.)

Again, considering the other technology demonstrated, the gradual growth of their singularity may or may not be a big issue for them.

duckroll
2013-05-06, 10:21
It's not all technobabble. Obviously it's not hard scifi since it takes a lot of liberties with how things work simply because technology is "advanced enough", but the SF designer on the series seems to know what he's talking about in the interview.

Basically Avalon is a colony ship. It's not a space station, but a moving emigrant ship. The super mass is indeed supposed to mimic a black hole, and the entire structure of the ship is based on the concept of relativistic jets. The accretion disk caused by the black hole creates the plasma jet which runs through the entire structure. The plasma jet is used as an energy source which powers everything. The electromagnetic shield at the top is like an umbrella, sheltering the rest of the structure as it moves through space at near light speed.

Based on the explanation given, I'll say the thrust reverser and the electromagnetic shield are meant to bounce and filter everything off the "front" of the ship as it moves in that direction, to prevent any damage to the housing units further down the structure.

The black hole device is used as both a central mass as well as a central power source generating the plasma jet. The rings around the plasma jet probably draw power from the plasma directly to power the parts of the structure they control. He doesn't really go into any detail regarding the rings, but I think it makes sense.

As for how everything is secured, every piece of the structure rotates around the plasma jet, and centrifugal force from the constant rotations creates artificial gravity. Think of it as the black hole like thing being the main body of the ship, and as it moves, everything moves with it because it all rotates around parts of the plasma jet stream.


Edit: On second thought, the electromagnetic shield itself should be more than enough to protect against stray debris. The thrust reverser component is probably literally that - to slow down the ship or to bring it to a halt if they want to stop moving. Silly me. :P

Jan-Poo
2013-05-06, 11:01
The problem I see is that stuff should orbit around the black hole and not around its plasma jet. I see no physical reason as to why it should work that way.

As this colony is constructed it seems that the gravitational force of the black hole is somehow equally diluted along this plasma jet thus making everything orbiting around it while at the same time not being pulled by the black hole itself. But how is that logical?


Based on the explanation given, I'll say the thrust reverser and the electromagnetic shield are meant to bounce and filter everything off the "front" of the ship as it moves in that direction, to prevent any damage to the housing units further down the structure.

Or perhaps it's meant to reverse the thrust of the plasma jet itself. thus creating two thrusts in the same directions so that the colony can move. But why does this colony need to move?


After further thoughts I think it is more likely that they didn't create the black hole, they created the colony around a black hole that already existed. I can speculate that this whole thing is meant to provide a solution to the question of "how can a space colony exist without a sun to rely on". This is probably due to the fact that the Hideauze are taking every single sun available.

The answer they found seems to be "they exploit a black hole with an accretion disk". The plasma beams that they generate are in fact an enormous source of energy.

duckroll
2013-05-06, 11:25
Or perhaps it's meant to reverse the thrust of the plasma jet itself. thus creating two thrusts in the same directions so that the colony can move. But why does this colony need to move?

It's a colony ship. Why wouldn't it need to move? The entire Galactic Fleet is a colony moving through the vastness of space. It's meant to be a parallel to how the Gargantia is a fleet colony moving through the vast ocean.

Jan-Poo
2013-05-06, 11:31
It's a colony ship. Why wouldn't it need to move? The entire Galactic Fleet is a colony moving through the vastness of space. It's meant to be a parallel to how the Gargantia is a fleet colony moving through the vast ocean.

But in the case of Gargantia we know that they have a good reason to be constantly on the move, else they could just settle for floating platforms, it would be a lot more cost effective.
What's Avalon's reason?

Gravitas Free Zone
2013-05-06, 11:32
If they are trying to find a nice habitable planet, moving the combined lump that is Avalon closer to it would make it easier to transfer the population to the planet... or, considering their technology and the mass of the entire assemblage, maybe they'd just grab the planet and take it with them, dunno.

As a current issue, moving Avalon helps prevent being eaten by giant space snails.

Jan-Poo
2013-05-06, 11:37
Not getting eaten by giant space snails?

Ha ha, perhaps. It's difficult to tell as long as we don't know how the Hideauze move through space. If their space travel system allow them to jump just like the alliance do, it would be pointless.

There are some hints regarding this that could be useful to clarify this concept. We know that both Ledo and Kugel wanted to prevent at all costs the Hideauze from reaching the wormhole.

I always thought that this was because the Hideauze do not know the colony's position. But if you are right, it might be because they cannot normally reach it.


If they are trying to find a nice habitable planet, moving the combined lump that is Avalon closer to it would make it easier to transfer the population to the planet...

I doubt this. It would be better to first find an inhabitable planet and then move the colony there rather than moving it aimlessly.

duckroll
2013-05-06, 11:38
But in the case of Gargantia we know that they have a good reason to be constantly on the move, else they could just settle for floating platforms, it would be a lot more cost effective.
What's Avalon's reason?

Tradition. They were the humans who left the Earth to journey into the stars. They continue that journey to this day, only to be hindered by aliens as they go further and further. Avalon is their mobile home.

I really doubt that they "found" a black hole and used it too. Since in the opening of the first episode, you can see that ships like Avalon were destroyed before. They obviously managed to rebuild them. The high density mass is what "moves" the ship to begin with, so they definitely have control over it. Looking at Chamber's own gravitational sphere which it uses to fly, I would say they definitely have the technology to generate things which act like black holes, without the drawbacks of actual black holes today. Ie: they can create high density spheres with gravitational properties which don't suck everything into oblivion, and can be controlled.

Jan-Poo
2013-05-06, 11:43
Tradition. They were the humans who left the Earth to journey into the stars. They continue that journey to this day, only to be hindered by aliens as they go further and further. Avalon is their mobile home.

I really doubt that they "found" a black hole and used it too. Since in the opening of the first episode, you can see that ships like Avalon were destroyed before. They obviously managed to rebuild them. The high density mass is what "moves" the ship to begin with, so they definitely have control over it. Looking at Chamber's own gravitational sphere which it uses to fly, I would say they definitely have the technology to generate things which act like black holes, without the drawbacks of actual black holes today. Ie: they can create high density spheres with gravitational properties which don't suck everything into oblivion, and can be controlled.

Even if they have the technology they can't create energy out of thin air.
The exploitation of an existing black hole would solve this issue.

At any rate you need an enormous amount of matter to create a stable black hole with an accretion disk included, and that's another thing that they couldn't have possibly summoned from nothing.


As for "tradition" and "mobile home" I don't think that's true, because if Ledo thought that Earth could potentially become their new hub, then that means that Avalon is merely a temporary settlement and that they actually want to settle permanently on a planet, which is stated to be one of their main objectives.

duckroll
2013-05-06, 11:55
As for "tradition" and "mobile home" I don't think that's true, because if Ledo thought that Earth could potentially become their new hub, then that means that Avalon is merely a temporary settlement and that they actually want to settle permanently on a planet, which is stated to be one of their main objectives.

Remember what Chamber said in response to Ledo's speculation. There is no indication that they are looking for a permanent home. Ledo only knows what his orders are and he has never even been on Avalon himself. Not a reliable source imo. Oh the other hand, based on the narration at the start of episode 1, it clearly mentions humanity's journey onward, and that only the aliens stand in their way.

Maybe I missed it somewhere, but I don't remember settlement ever being stated as an objective - only fighting the Hideauze. It seems that's the only objective they ever had.

Jan-Poo
2013-05-06, 12:02
Remember what Chamber said in response to Ledo's speculation. There is no indication that they are looking for a permanent home. Ledo only knows what his orders are and he has never even been on Avalon himself. Not a reliable source imo. Oh the other hand, based on the narration at the start of episode 1, it clearly mentions humanity's journey onward, and that only the aliens stand in their way.

Maybe I missed it somewhere, but I don't remember settlement ever being stated as an objective - only fighting the Hideauze. It seems that's the only objective they ever had.

Episode 2, in that scene you mention, Chamber only intervenes when Ledo suggests that Earth might replace Avalon as their hub, but he doesn't say anything when Ledo just before said that securing a habitable planet is the alliance's most fervent wish.

I seriously doubt that Ledo made that up.

duckroll
2013-05-06, 12:06
Episode 2, in that scene you mention, Chamber only intervenes when Ledo suggests that Earth might replace Avalon as their hub, but he doesn't say anything when Ledo just before said that securing a habitable planet is the alliance's most fervent wish.

I seriously doubt that Ledo made that up.

Oh yeah, that's true. I missed that. Maybe their journey was to find a new planet after Earth was destroyed? It seems they travelled a long way and still never found anything like Earth ever again. That could be why they're still looking.

Haak
2013-05-11, 11:39
I'll be honest with everyone here in that i never really paid much attention in geography so let me just ask this one dumb question: In terms of making it drinkable, what's the difference between rain water and ocean water?(Based on Amy saying rain water was a valuable commodity).

Jan-Poo
2013-05-11, 13:06
I'll be honest with everyone here in that i never really paid much attention in geography so let me just ask this one dumb question: In terms of making it drinkable, what's the difference between rain water and ocean water?(Based on Amy saying rain water was a valuable commodity).

Basically: salt.

Ocean water is salt water, that means the concentration of salt (to be more precise Na+ and Cl- ions) is too high.

You probably know already that eating salty stuff makes you thirsty. That's because our body needs a precise ratio of salt/water to function correctly, so when you ingest too much salt, it wants you to drink water to compensate.

Sea water has so much salt that it offsets the water it provides, it would be pointless and even unhealthy to drink it.

Rain water on the other side has no salt whatsoever, since rain is basically condensed water that has firstly evaporated. Salt doesn't evaporate.

Haak
2013-05-11, 16:22
Ah that makes sense. I forgot that the water would've been evaported first. Thanks for that.

duckroll
2013-05-15, 14:50
http://gargantia.jp/#world_27

There's an update on the Gargantia site showing massive ruins of the past civilization on the ocean bed. The ruins are covered in deep fog have apparently "eluded many previous salvage attempts". It kinda looks like... a space elevator to me. ^^;

http://gargantia.jp/images/world/image/200.jpg

Dark Wing
2013-05-18, 00:56
Well Ep9 is entitled "The Secret of the Ocean's Depths" so I guess this is going to come into play later.

Jan-Poo
2013-05-18, 08:20
That structure stretching to the bottom of the pic could be a mass driver or... simply a monorail :heh:

I wonder what the eight structures around the center are. Some kind of emitters or receivers?

Beltane70
2013-05-19, 15:01
I wonder what the eight structures around the center are. Some kind of emitters or receivers?

They remind me and look a lot like the Towers of Babel in Nadia!

stormy001_M1A2
2013-05-19, 16:43
Or gate portal to open warp holes like 1st episode space battle. Ledo might use it to contact Alliance and I willing to bet the Colonel is still alive, leading an expeditionary force thru this structure.

Just speculation.

Funkatron
2013-05-19, 18:37
So, do we know yet if cloning is a thing in the Alliance? We know they at least use eugenics: they dispose of the weak and only the longest lasting soldier ie the strongest are allowed to mate. I suspect they clone new embryos that are formed during pregnancy

Ledgem
2013-05-20, 11:34
So, do we know yet if cloning is a thing in the Alliance? We know they at least use eugenics: they dispose of the weak and only the longest lasting soldier ie the strongest are allowed to mate. I suspect they clone new embryos that are formed during pregnancy
It's difficult to say for certain, but it doesn't seem like it. Ledo's "younger brother" (?) looked like a perfect replica, but Ledo looked and sounded quite different from his fellow soldiers in episode 1 (based on the commander that we saw and the teammates that we heard). That's point #1 for diversity. Point #2 was Chamber's statement that Ledo had proven himself a worthy human and that he would be discharged to live and reproduce on Avalon. If they were going purely by cloning then they wouldn't need reproduction of that nature, nor would Ledo need to be discharged and retired from military service for it.

The series creators probably took the route that they did for some unique storytelling elements, but it's interesting to compare the Galactic Alliance with something like Gundam Seed's Coordinators. The Galactic Alliance seems to be built around efficiency and the propagation of humanity, yet eugenics in the style that we've seen is arguably very inefficient. Compare that with the Coordinators, where genetic selection and/or modification occurs at the cellular stage of human development, resulting in humans that are disease-free and better in nearly every way than the Naturals. It seems difficult to believe that the Galactic Alliance could be as technologically advanced as they are and be incapable of producing the Suisei no Gargantia version of Coordinators, but again, fictional liberties are being taken.

LKK
2013-05-20, 11:54
Point #2 was Chamber's statement that Ledo had proven himself a worthy human and that he would be discharged to live and reproduce on Avalon. If they were going purely by cloning then they wouldn't need reproduction of that nature, nor would Ledo need to be discharged and retired from military service for it.
Correction: Ledo was NOT being discharged and retired from his military service. He had earned a vacation on Avalon. In other words, he had earned shore leave, nothing more. While on shore leave, he could reproduce freely, but there's no indication whether Ledo can or would be allowed to sire children. After his shore leave was over, Ledo would likely return to military service since his time on Avalon was limited. He wasn't going to live there like you thought.

Does this information make a stronger case for cloning? Or against cloning? I haven't decided.

Ledgem
2013-05-20, 12:38
Correction: Ledo was NOT being discharged and retired from his military service. He had earned a vacation on Avalon. In other words, he had earned shore leave, nothing more. While on shore leave, he could reproduce freely, but there's no indication whether Ledo can or would be allowed to sire children. After his shore leave was over, Ledo would likely return to military service since his time on Avalon was limited. He wasn't going to live there like you thought.

Does this information make a stronger case for cloning? Or against cloning? I haven't decided.
Thanks for the correction. I suppose it could go either way, in that case.

Andarkoshi
2013-05-20, 16:42
It's just a guess on my part but perhaps they use both clones and normal reproduction?

Essentially they allow the successful pilots to reproduce while at the same time they may clone them. Then if the pilot's child/children prove successful (meaning, they survive long enough to earn the rights) they receive the same treatment.

This is essentially a way to focus on efficiency (you clone only the best pilots) while maintaining diversity (making a homogeneous society is a bad idea for a number of reasons)

Alliance pretty much wants as good pilots and soldiers as they can so they mate the most successful ones and then test those kids if they will live up to the expectations. If not then they either die in battle or get "removed" by the Alliance itself.

Funkatron
2013-05-20, 19:24
It's just a guess on my part but perhaps they use both clones and normal reproduction?

Essentially they allow the successful pilots to reproduce while at the same time they may clone them. Then if the pilot's child/children prove successful (meaning, they survive long enough to earn the rights) they receive the same treatment.

This is essentially a way to focus on efficiency (you clone only the best pilots) while maintaining diversity (making a homogeneous society is a bad idea for a number of reasons)

Alliance pretty much wants as good pilots and soldiers as they can so they mate the most successful ones and then test those kids if they will live up to the expectations. If not then they either die in battle or get "removed" by the Alliance itself.

Which is Eugenics: breeding only the best to fight and the weak are cast off

Andarkoshi
2013-05-21, 01:39
Which is Eugenics: breeding only the best to fight and the weak are cast off

Yes, but the discussion was whether they use cloning or natural reproduction to make new soldiers. I just wanted to add another option ^^

aohige
2013-05-21, 03:30
http://gargantia.jp/#world_27

There's an update on the Gargantia site showing massive ruins of the past civilization on the ocean bed. The ruins are covered in deep fog have apparently "eluded many previous salvage attempts". It kinda looks like... a space elevator to me. ^^;

http://gargantia.jp/images/world/image/200.jpg

Yeah it looks like an anchor to space elevator - which would suggest the location being near or on the equator.

Funkatron
2013-05-21, 09:54
Yeah it looks like an anchor to space elevator - which would suggest the location being near or on the equator.

So in other words, this is the future of the Gundam 00 universe :p

Beltane70
2013-05-21, 12:41
So in other words, this is the future of the Gundam 00 universe :p

Or Super Dimension Century Orguss!

Paranoid Android
2013-05-27, 08:45
Yes, but the discussion was whether they use cloning or natural reproduction to make new soldiers. I just wanted to add another option ^^

They could definitely use both. If their cloning technology is not as advanced and perfected as their civilization may seem to possess, then natural-born could be superior to a clone. So the strong and healthy citizens are allowed to reproduce naturally; while the clones will make up for insufficient military size.

Xellos-_^
2013-05-27, 19:37
Basically: salt.

Ocean water is salt water, that means the concentration of salt (to be more precise Na+ and Cl- ions) is too high.

You probably know already that eating salty stuff makes you thirsty. That's because our body needs a precise ratio of salt/water to function correctly, so when you ingest too much salt, it wants you to drink water to compensate.

Sea water has so much salt that it offsets the water it provides, it would be pointless and even unhealthy to drink it.

Rain water on the other side has no salt whatsoever, since rain is basically condensed water that has firstly evaporated. Salt doesn't evaporate.now there is a question,

how high would the saline level of the ocean water be after all the fresh water has been mix into it. Assuming no more arctic ice.

Jan-Poo
2013-05-27, 20:00
now there is a question,

how high would the saline level of the ocean water be after all the fresh water has been mix into it. Assuming no more arctic ice.

Not much actually if this is just the water from the polar caps.
As some have already pointed out in this thread, all those glaciers do not contain that much water in the end (in comparison) and even if they'd completely melt the submerged land wouldn't even be that much.

Now since the Earth of this anime is completely submerged by water (or almost, judging by Ridget's map) either the authors didn't make their homework or there is additional water from somewhere else.

In the latter case it would be hard to tell the change in saline concentration, because we don't even know how much water was added.

Unknown Soldier
2013-05-28, 05:55
A few things:

As others have mentioned, if all the polar ice caps melted today, the entire Earth's surface would not be drowned. In order for a Waterworld scenario to occur, additional water is needed. This is explained away at the beginning by saying the Earth went through an Ice Age which is what prompted the spacefaring humans to leave in the first place. We can assume the humans who left didn't expect any humans to survive the Ice Age, but we know some did because their descendants now sail the endless sea on the Gargantia and other surface fleets.

What's bothersome is the fact that the spacefaring humans "forgot" where Earth was. How is this possible? Assuming that they didn't go through a catastrophic loss of technology of their own, which is unlikely since they can create artificial wormholes and traverse through them to any arbitrary point in space such as the Space Squids' nest, they would have starmaps which record exactly where Earth is!

Now if I was abandoning the Earth because I thought it was becoming uninhabitable, why wouldn't I leave at least a small installation on the Moon to monitor it, in case if ever became habitable again? Sure would be nice to have a homeworld to return to instead of a large space station which contains 470 million humans like Avalon.

The other problem is that the Hideous are apparently nanotechnology-enhanced Giant Squids and other sea life. Which is all very interesting, except how exactly do the Space Squids survive then? The DNA of "Whale Squids" on Earth and the Space Squids that Ledo was fighting in space are identical. So the Space Squids need oxygen, and an environment which isn't vacuum so they don't explode. How exactly did the Space Squids get there, and how are they able to survive much less attack spacefaring humanity?

It's obvious that the humans created the Hideous, but for what reason? Was it an experiment in harnessing bioenergy gone horribly wrong? We already know the nanomachines still in Earth's oceans generate vast amounts of energy, which the ships of the Gargantia fleet harvest. If so, then did they take the Hideous to space for use as an energy source, and then they escaped, and somehow were able survive in the vacuum of space, and got really big and attacked space humanity?

As you can see, this is getting ridiculous. I just hope they explain some of this before the series ends. They don't have very many episodes left!

Jan-Poo
2013-05-28, 07:30
What's bothersome is the fact that the spacefaring humans "forgot" where Earth was. How is this possible? Assuming that they didn't go through a catastrophic loss of technology of their own, which is unlikely since they can create artificial wormholes and traverse through them to any arbitrary point in space such as the Space Squids' nest, they would have starmaps which record exactly where Earth is!

The funny fact is that Chamber still had the map of the solar system in his database and that's how he knew he was on Earth to begin with.


Now if I was abandoning the Earth because I thought it was becoming uninhabitable, why wouldn't I leave at least a small installation on the Moon to monitor it, in case if ever became habitable again?

Because there is no moon :heh:
This has been discussed before, and it's really very strange but if you pay attention you'll notice that in spite of the many shots of the starry sky that we got never once you can see the moon in them.

It could be just a coincidence or just an error, but it is very suspicious.


Anyway I can't see many explanations apart from the theory that the alliance is hiding the truth from its citizens. I think that they likely don't want to return to Earth... ever. Not sure what's their reason though.

LKK
2013-05-28, 07:49
Because there is no moon :heh:
This has been discussed before, and it's really very strange but if you pay attention you'll notice that in spite of the many shots of the starry sky that we got never once you can see the moon in them.

It could be just a coincidence or just an error, but it is very suspicious.
I sure hope the lack of a moon is a coincidence or an error because the scientific implications of Earth actually losing its moon goes well beyond anything the series has demonstrated at this point. No more moon = calamity on a huge scale.

Paranoid Android
2013-05-28, 08:18
Because there is no moon :heh:
This has been discussed before, and it's really very strange but if you pay attention you'll notice that in spite of the many shots of the starry sky that we got never once you can see the moon in them.

It could be just a coincidence or just an error, but it is very suspicious.

I didn't notice that. Wow, if there's no moon, then just what happened in the past X years? That probably leaves plenty of room to explain the condition of the planet?

Lack of a moon would make the planet more susceptible to foreign projectiles. Maybe all their satellites were destroyed by another species or random space objects, and then the planet was bombarded with comets that melted to form the ocean planet.

The lack of moon also reduces the tidal forces and make earth's tilt more sensitive to other masses like Jupiter. Maybe the earth isn't on a tilt any more and season-less.

Jan-Poo
2013-05-28, 08:22
No more moon = calamity on a huge scale.

I'm very skeptical on that.
Yeah I read the various theories, but opinions vary and the most catastrophic didn't really convince me.

In the end if a moon was really that necessary why do people even plan to colonize mars and why is the lack of a moon (and no phobos and deimos don't count) never brought up as a major problem?

Yeah the axis of mars wobbles and it's very unstable, but no one ever said that that's something that would cause so many problems to prevent colonization.

LKK
2013-05-28, 08:46
If the Earth never had a moon or had only small moons like Phobos & Deimos, then that would be one thing. Presumably Earth's environment and geology would still have stabilized albeit into a very different world than our current one. However, I believe that to tear the current moon away from the Earth now would cause severe changes Earth's stability and that life on Earth would suffer severe trials in the process. I don't argue that the Earth could eventually find a stable situation without the moon. I argue that the transition to that new stable situation would be bad for life as we know it and as Gargantia depicts it. Very, very bad.

Jan-Poo
2013-05-28, 09:02
Well but the Earth of this anime did suffer severe calamities. A total glaciation and the transformation into a water planet have probably been even more catastrophic events than anything that the sudden removal of the moon would cause.

Of course I have no doubts that the transition from no moon would be catastrophic, but we're dealing with an even worse scenario here.
This Earth already recovered from something worse than that. I don't expect all this to have happened in less than at least several centuries.

Funkatron
2013-06-02, 13:33
Okay, I don't think cloning is involved after watching episode 9: I think the eugenics approach of the GA was created to both combat the idea of genetic manipulation ala the Evolvers and to combat humans adapting to space.

It's been proven that space travel, especially long periods of it can have detrimental effects on humans. The Evolvers relied on genetic manipulation, becoming something beyond human. The rest of humanity, disgusted by what their fellow man had become, decided on eugenics. The war with the Hideauze/Evolvers serves two purposes: a way of annihilation against those who gave up their humanity and a way to sift the wheat. The weak die in battle and those who survive their 16th birthday are deemed the strong and allowed to procreate and create a stronger generation. Those born weak are disposed of and the cycle continues. Scary stuff

mikeomni
2013-06-02, 13:41
Also in Episode 9, we see the moon from before the earth was flooded.

Paranoid Android
2013-06-04, 10:22
Also in Episode 9, we see the moon from before the earth was flooded.

Maybe GA secretly stole the moon and flew away on it! *gasp*

Dark Wing
2013-06-04, 12:07
Maybe GA secretly stole the moon and flew away on it! *gasp*

or was blown up along with the warp gate.

Gravitas Free Zone
2013-06-04, 16:15
or was blown up along with the warp gate.

Well, that's how things got really screwed up for Earth in Cowboy Bebop...

~Yami~
2013-07-17, 08:36
anyone can enlighten me about this :

I'm just interested in whale-squid.... are they actually ever exist as animal before?

from what I've understood, there's actually a kind of squid (symbiont or whatever), then they're engineered by mixing them with humans

JMvS
2013-07-22, 05:51
anyone can enlighten me about this :

I'm just interested in whale-squid.... are they actually ever exist as animal before?

from what I've understood, there's actually a kind of squid (symbiont or whatever), then they're engineered by mixing them with humans

To sum it up:

The scientists of the Evolver faction created an artificial life form: the Symbiot.

The Symbiot:
-kinda resembles a squid, though amusingly a starfish as well (the way they sucked on the walls of their tank).
-appears to be an autotrophic life form (like plants, and corals to some extent), meaning they don't need to feed on organic matter: light and inorganic nutriments are enough.
-it relies on symbiotic nanomachines which excell at converting sunlight into electricity (unclear on how this relation feed them)
-instead of an unnecessary gastrointestinal tract, it has a cavity designed to envelop, support and provide control to a Homo Sapiens

These symbiots were worn by Humans of the Evolver faction to become the 1st generation of Whalesquid/Hideauze. From how they and later individuales are depicted:
-they can produce electricity with their nanomachines
-they can electrolyse water into hydrogen and oxygen
-reproduction is done by what appear to be "Queens": the female "human" core likely produces fertilized eggs, which are processed by the Symbiot into combined "eggs".
-an egg's maturation, more or less equivalent to a pregnancy (probably covering infancy as well), resembles the hydrozoan's polyp life stage.
-"human" cores appear more and more fused with the symbiot as they mature ("face" and fangs).
-unclear if the human core continues to grows, if there's an atrophy of core limbs and/or a suppression/mitigation of bone calcification.

On space Hideauze, we know that:
-they have multiple forms, including large planetoid sized colonies (those probably develop by gathering water in order to provide a breeding ground for the colony)
-they develop a massive shell of nanomachines
-they can produce beams

Regarding the space Hideauze, I think that their space faring abilities rest on several mechanism:
-sails (no comsumption)
-maybe ion propulsion
-cryogenic propulsion (hydrogen+oxgen) for strong acceleration when needed (consumes water)
-probably simple water jets for correction (consumes water)
Their beams would be:
-carbon dioxyde laser: a CO2 cell and electricity and Voila!
-possibly hydrogen fluoride laser: chemically more complex, but extremely powerfull, and might enable nuclear fusion (a clue for interstellar travel)