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Pellissier
2013-04-28, 01:53
Welcome to the discussion thread for Suisei no Gargantia, Episode 4.

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Mangaka-chan
2013-04-28, 01:56
Judging by last week's preview this episode will be more slice-of-life than the previous 3 episodes. I'm interested to see more of Gargantia and whatever shenanigans Amy's friends might have in store for us. :)

hai_san
2013-04-28, 06:54
Damn the anticipation is killing me... not as bad as Unicorn yet but still SnG is till the serie i look most forward to this season atm.

Algent
2013-04-28, 08:46
http://i.imgur.com/PQ2g3qxl.jpg (http://imgur.com/PQ2g3qx)

MisaoFan
2013-04-28, 09:56
Superb episode so far. We learn more about what the Gargantia's lifestyle looks like, and since Chamber is automatically doing serious business, it seems Ledo is able to use a earphone to help Chamber translating what he said. His conversation with Amy's younger brother Bebel is interesting, and the moment a rain hits, I sense something wrong with the population but then I realized I was wrong. His piece of flashback which occurs the moment Bebel is singing a song with the shell looks amazingly touching. It does help that Gen Urobuchi managed to not throw everything in the abyss like he did in Madoka Magica and Psycho-Pass, and that's interesting to note that the next episode preview has beach stills, and the end eyecatch always looks good so far.

tsunade666
2013-04-28, 11:19
Wow... he just started working and he is already in dept. such treatment -_-

lightbringer
2013-04-28, 11:44
I was wrong. At the rate he's going, he'll have full mastery of spoken moonspeak (seaspeak?) within an episode or two.

kk2extreme
2013-04-28, 12:50
I am suspicious of the black antena looking thinig, it looks out of place...

SonicSpeed
2013-04-28, 12:58
During the flashback, is that his little brother send into space, because he was weak, disabled, or anything that possible has to do with his health. He seem to be sad because all he remember is that his little brother has that flute and he probably played the flute before. Considers that he recall his memory.

Entravity
2013-04-28, 13:03
Nice calm episode, but the end part is well done. It made me actually care for his situation and the disparity between two different people.

mikeomni
2013-04-28, 13:04
I am suspicious of the black antena looking thinig, it looks out of place...

Yeah, that was the one thing that seemed out of place. It looked like a tower where someone lived but I doubt that was its original purpose. Unlike everything else in Gargantia it didn't appear corroded. Plus the scale of thing was huge. Pointing straight up it reminds me of an attachment point for a space elevator. I suppose it could also be the tube to a rail launcher.

pagan poor
2013-04-28, 13:08
Looks like Bebel will be around alot to give Ledo some perspective. Well, also because he has alot of time to talk to Ledo because of his condition. Ledo will at least understand that "sick" people can contribute in some form or another. Hopefully, Ledo will find his place in this society outside of being the military ass kicker he's been so far.

Midonin
2013-04-28, 13:09
Gargantia 04 - Cruise Control

This is the kind of story I was expecting from this series back when it was announced. The first episode since the beginning with nobody getting killed, no overtly military elements - just surviving and enjoying life with friends at sea on Gargantia. It's good to see Ledo starting to snap out of his mindset, and that brief flashback hints that soldiers like him aren't born, they're made. I know giant space... things (Cryptids?) aren't the most pleasant to deal with, but Earth looks like the better place to live. I should know, I've lived there my whole life. (*rimshot*) Chamber does look a little suspicious with his intent to stop Ledo from being here, even if he is a hero and starting to get used to it, but he's an AI - one with some degree of sentience, mind you, but if Chamber started living here I can see it ending up like Straight Title Robot Anime's finale. He can't process the non-military life on Earth and just shuts down. Laughter has that effect on a person. I know this relaxing pace can't be kept up forever, but next week looks like a beach/swimsuit episode, and that means at least a little bit of fanservice. Viva fanservice! The Gargantians are what got me watching this series, and they're the ones I'm rooting for. Plus, their swimsuits look sexier than the ones in Majestic Prince. This is a very crucial element to weigh the shows on.

hai_san
2013-04-28, 13:23
Oha only 4th ep and Ledo is already in troubled thought about this "home". Bebel 2 killer lines+flute makes Ledo from obedient soldier to a more "human" being. Dunno about the boy in capsule is that Ledo younger brother or is it himself there and the one outside is his brother/father/genetic donor?

Gravitas Free Zone
2013-04-28, 13:28
The bit with the rain catching brought up another minor bit of scene trivia from Waterworld... though it did provide some further insight on their technology level; they would need to have some form of water treatment to support that large a population, but natural fresh water would still be an important supplement. Not knowing how the ships are powered, it's difficult to guess whether there is any other means of desalinating.

Big black tower: There is a building with some plants growing on it at the top. Presumably we'll find out what that is in due time.

It would seem that Chamber is more willing to roll with the punches in the current circumstances than Ledo is, but that's the benefit of being a pragmatic AI, I suppose. It might also be possible that Chamber does have some idea of where they are but it makes no sense to it yet. And now we find that Chamber is willing to be directed by others... which, presumably would not extend to hostile actions directed toward Ledo or other humans, but might give people bad ideas about removing Ledo from circulation.

So the Galactic Alliance's entire social organization is based around what seems to be the Clone Life and being cogs in the big wheel? The first episode suggested a civilian population on Avalon, but that seems a bit less likely now. Then again, maybe there is one, and it would be a matter of Ledo needing to be pointed at the right... places... to go while on shore leave.

Next week: Beach Episode already?

Kirarakim
2013-04-28, 13:28
This episode was excellent, even though it was just slice of life with world and character building it was done so well.

Ledo is so clueless and adorable. Not really sure how he grew up as well as he did in the world he grew up in. Loved his conversation with Amy's little brother.

And can I say how pleased I am Bebel is a little brother and not a little sister. :)

Looks like next week is the swimming service episode.

I only wonder when the plot line is going to kick into gear, after all this is only a one cour series. It's fantastic they are taking the time to build the world and characters but I just hope things won't be rushed in the end.

ookamigirl
2013-04-28, 13:32
Dealing with the aftermath of all the damages.
Nice and relaxing episode this time.
Ledo seems to have been adapting nicely.
At least he got to spend some time with Amy.
Guess he still hasn't figured out that people have more freedom there.
He doesn't know how to be free...

MUAHAHAHAHAHA
2013-04-28, 13:36
The whole conversation between Ledo and Bebel seems like therapy session between a patient and a psychologist.

Tranhieu
2013-04-28, 13:41
Very nice episode. Though we all expected Ledo's gonna change his mindset sooner or later from being a strict soldier who always follows orders and rational thinking to a more understanding human being, this episode really struck me by how the world of future Earth is so beautifully depicted without exaggerating the idea of 'everyone lives together happily ever after'. Plus the way it skillfully brings up those nuances of the 2 worlds (the downpour, families, kids) really grew on me. All in all, most favorite episode so far. I've had enough violence with Shingeki no Kyojin already :P

Kirarakim
2013-04-28, 13:50
Okay at first I thought Ledo's flashback was all him at different ages but then I looked at the screencaps again and realize it must be his own brother.

I guess Ledo's brother was killed because he was not a benefit to society.

Haak
2013-04-28, 13:55
That was a wonderful episode. As expected, Ledo is starting to learn a lot from living in a far more care free society and it's a treat to watch. It looks like he had some hidden emotions for some people he cared about that even he didn't realise. Very sad stuff.

tsunade666
2013-04-28, 14:01
Its a very nice episode. Ledo is becoming more and more like a normal human being instead of a weapon. Said human being still doesn't understand anything but Ledo is learning. The talk with Bebel really helped him.

The black tower looks like a control tower or communication tower if you ask me. Used for communication and if its a fleet. Then antenna shouldn't be that surprising but the way its presented which is not rusting and only being covered by vegetation, indeed gives it a more mysterious look.

The first episode gives a knockout perspective from the people on space which are fighting for survival. I just can't see this having a good ending. Knowing who the writer is doesn't help a bit. For now everything is mellow down and next episode is beach episode. Its like Ledo is slowing turning into a normal person but known Gen. It will all ended up in pain. Having an enemy alien and a space fleet that doesn't have home, doesn't spell good. I can imagine an invasion in the end. Specially, the fleet reminds me of macross which goal is to find home, even if attacking an alien planet just to get a new home.

With chamber constantly sending SOS signal and trying to find the fleet. I can see it ending with either good ending with Ledo having a normal life within Gargantia or true ending where there will be an invasion in the end.

The customs of people living in space and in war is pretty different from lax living in earth.

Also I think that person isn't really Ledo's little brother but probably a clone and he is related to him. Cloning when they have minimal numbers left will help them in survival. But having a weak body then he is just thrown like a thrash into the space. Since having a painful past will be a hindrance in a mission. They probably put a hypnotism on him or minor brainwashing to forget it.

Its a reminder on who is the writer.

Mangaka-chan
2013-04-28, 14:02
Nice episode. I was expecting a world building episode, and while we did plenty of that it turned out to be an important character building episode too. I really like how straight forward Ledo's conversation with Bebel is by telling him those like Bebel would not be allowed to exist in space. It's harsh a harsh thing to say to someone who's bedridden, but Ledo did not say it with cruel intention as the situation is simply illogical to him. And Bebel to his credit took that information really well, which shows that despite his age he's a well-adjusted person who's at peace with his physical condition.

My favorite part of this episode though, has to be when Bebel played the flute and Ledo had a flashback. Since Ledo's society has no family unit I'm guessing the person who looks just like him in the capsule is his clone (that or they're both the clone of someone else), thereby a younger brother of sorts. Judging by Ledo's confusion as to why he was crying after that flash of memory, his memories of this person with the flute might've been suppressed. If the Galactic Alliance value soldiers who have no attachment to life, maybe whomever suppressed Ledo's memory deemed it to be counterproductive to Ledo's ability as a soldier, because memories of this person could give Ledo another purpose besides fighting.

Next week's a beach episode (well, not technically, since you kind of need land for a beach :p), and I'm hoping I'll be surprised again by some nice ingots of character/plot development. Though I have to say, after the conversation Ledo had with Bebel about living life without worry I've started worrying if Bebel will make it out of this show alive. >_>

Kirarakim
2013-04-28, 14:08
Also I think that person isn't really Ledo's little brother but probably a clone and he is related to him. Cloning when they have minimal numbers left will help them in survival. But having a weak body then he is just thrown like a thrash into the space. Since having a painful past will be a hindrance in a mission. They probably put a hypnotism on him or minor brainwashing to forget it.

That's definitely a possibility. In fact Ledo could be the clone of that boy because the boy himself was to weak to fight.

Its a reminder on who is the writer.

Well he is only partially responsible for the script this time, people shouldn't forget that either.

ginger02
2013-04-28, 14:50
Bevel and Bellows seem like they're going to be like therapists for Ledo lol

Really loving the show, it's just so happy. And i love the music; reminds me of Chrono Cross (which had a lot of sea and ocean imagery going on).

Chamber getting tied up by the strings shows a way he could be subdued in battle I suppose. Ledo's pistol sword is super cool btw.

As far as the writer's intent, I found this while browsing wikipedia
Gen Urobuchi explained on the official website that the message of the story is aimed towards those in their teens and 20s, who are either about to enter into society or recently have, and is meant to cheer them on and to encourage them that "going out into the world isn't scary". He also said that the feeling of this work will be different from others he's been involved with.
http://gargantia.jp/#introduce_staff

Never seen his previous work, so don't really know what it was like, but I'm enjoying the themes of this show. It's a nice take on slice of life.

joshuafaramir
2013-04-28, 14:53
Nice episode so far.
Very relaxing and gives us a lot of insight on the lives of Gargantia and Galactic Alliance
Ledo is getting corrupted by civilian lifestyle
Galactic Alliance very similar to Spartan lifestyle.

Overall, one of the stronger eps. so far in the series.

LKK
2013-04-28, 15:51
Lovely episode. I expected to see the difficulties Ledo would have fitting into the fleet's society. But I wasn't expecting to learn some of Ledo's past as well. Since we learned some things about Ledo's past this week, I wonder if we'll learn some things about Amy's past next week? Like where are her parents?

I wonder why the workers didn't want Chamber to fly the cargo boxes? That seems to me an efficient way to move a group of them. Much better than lifting and walking each box individually.

SeijiSensei
2013-04-28, 15:55
it's not a big deal in the overall scheme of things, but I thought the rain scene was a bit implausible. Given how valuable rain and fresh water are, you would think the fleet had some standard collection methods in place and a large reservoir or cistern to store the collected water. Gargantia certainly has the technological knowledge to engineer a system like that. Running around with barrels and tarps seemed a bit too haphazard for something so important.

This episode had a couple of seemingly minor events that could blossom into bigger plot lines down the road. One concerns Ledo granting someone else control over Chamber. You just know there will be some person with nefarious motives who attempts to commandeer the mecha in the episodes ahead.

The other tidbit concerns the books on the desk of the "Sage." (By the way, isn't it a bit strange no one suggested he and Ledo meet before this?) There was a glimmer of recognition in Ledo's eyes when he saw those illustrations. Might it be possible that Chamber could use those books and help the Gargantians construct a space craft? Perhaps they'd even let Bebel onboard.

Gravitas Free Zone
2013-04-28, 15:57
It seemed that when Chamber lifted all of the containers at once they were banging into each other in the air and also hitting the ground a little roughly, which wouldn't have been good for the contents.

The cable entanglement looked like another good reason to not do that.

So, data point: Whatever method Chamber uses to fly, it (always) generates a working field that affects an area larger than Chamber itself?

Edited to add: The spacecraft in the book closely resembled that of Project Daedalus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Daedalus) (more) (http://news.discovery.com/space/history-of-space/project-daedalus-size-comparison-110119.htm), a nuclear-propulsion design.

Anh_Minh
2013-04-28, 16:02
This episode had a couple of seemingly minor events that could blossom into bigger plot lines down the road. One concerns Ledo granting someone else control over Chamber. You just know there will be some person with nefarious motives who attempts to commandeer the mecha in the episodes ahead.

Yeah, but I hope Chamber is smart enough to not let that happen. Instead of being dumbed down to generate drama.

Kirarakim
2013-04-28, 16:05
This episode had a couple of seemingly minor events that could blossom into bigger plot lines down the road. One concerns Ledo granting someone else control over Chamber. You just know there will be some person with nefarious motives who attempts to commandeer the mecha in the episodes ahead.


Hmm but it seemed while Chamber could take directions from someone else, Ledo was still communicating with Chamber through the ear piece. Thus Ledo was still in control.

Kanon
2013-04-28, 16:56
Lovely world building episode. Plenty of character development for Ledo as well. It's wonderful to see him slowly become more and more human.

The more we find out about the Galactic Alliance, the worse it gets. The concept of family has disappeared, people unable to fight are disposed of, children receive military training, and cloning is also pretty much confirmed. Their society exists solely for the purpose of war. Ledo's flashback was very intriguing. I can't tell if he was the child or the teenager. Whoever he was, I wonder what kind of relationship he had with the other person. They seemed to be close.

Gargantia, on the other hand is a very nice community upholding noble values. It sometimes strikes me as little too perfect, in fact. Everybody there is so nice. I hope for their sake that Chamber's SOS will never reach the alliance otherwise it will end very badly. Unfortunately, it probably will, but I won't make assumptions simply based on who the writer is. I'd like those peaceful days to continue for a little while.

Hmm but it seemed while Chamber could take directions from someone else, Ledo was still communicating with Chamber through the ear piece. Thus Ledo was still in control.

Yep, Ledo is still the main "operator". Chamber won't be hijacked so easily. It would be very dumb on Ledo's part to hand full control of Chamber over to somebody else.

Anh_Minh
2013-04-28, 16:58
The more we find out about the Galactic Alliance, the worse it gets. The concept of family has disappeared, people unable to fight are disposed of, children receive military training, and cloning is also pretty much confirmed. Their society exists solely for the purpose of war. Ledo's flashback was very intriguing. I can't tell if he was the child or the teenager. Whoever he was, I wonder what kind of relationship he had with the other person. They seemed to be close.

He's the one that didn't die.

Kanon
2013-04-28, 17:13
He's the one that didn't die.

I wasn't sure he died at first (the parallels with Bebel (can't help but think of Belmondo) were too unsubtle), but upon rewatching the scene, it's pretty obvious what happened here. Makes me even more curious what his relationship with the kid was. I was under the impression soldiers didn't interact a lot with other people, much less kids.

Anh_Minh
2013-04-28, 17:18
According to Ledo, all Galactic Alliance kids are soldiers or soldiers in training. No reason they shouldn't interact with each other. Maybe the older kids get some command training out of managing the younger ones.

And I don't think Gargantia embodies noble ideals. It's obvious they're complacent. And their leadership's full of short-sighted cowards.

Haak
2013-04-28, 17:19
Considering that its Ledo's memory and we saw the older guy's perspective on the kid being taken away, I'd say it's safe to assume Ledo is the older one.

Funnily enough though, like Kanon I didn't put two and two together and just figured the kid was seperated, but given how much they were talking about how the disabled and frail are treated, it makes sense the kid must have died, so that was some real fridge horror for me and it puts Ledo's crying in an entirely different light.

LoweGear
2013-04-28, 17:23
it's not a big deal in the overall scheme of things, but I thought the rain scene was a bit implausible. Given how valuable rain and fresh water are, you would think the fleet had some standard collection methods in place and a large reservoir or cistern to store the collected water. Gargantia certainly has the technological knowledge to engineer a system like that. Running around with barrels and tarps seemed a bit too haphazard for something so important.


They probably do have something like that for the majority of the water, but then many people would want to have their own easily-available and private water sources at hand without having to rely on a central source. Makes me remember my younger days when the family didn't have access to 24/7 water, and so we'd have to fill up the central water tank to provide water for the day. Yet despite having said tank, and having available faucets throughout the house, we'd still fill up individual basins and tubs of water for distribution throughout the house anyway. :heh:

mistress_kisara
2013-04-28, 17:35
This was a pretty good episode Ledo is starting to learn the language! and aww poor sobbing Ledo.. :(

Jan-Poo
2013-04-28, 18:03
I'm glad to see that after the weak episode3 we get yet another awesome episode, this is exactly what I was expecting to see at this point of the series and it was very well done.

Everytime Ledo wondered about the meaning and the inefficiency of the Gargantia's social structure there was a question that I really wanted him to think over and so I felt very happy when finally Bebel made him that very question.

It seems that Ledo's life has been very hard, but I'm a bit skeptical about whether that's the kind of life you have in the whole galactic alliance or if that only applies to soldiers.

Ledo apparently doesn't know anything about Avalon and how people live there. Chamber said that people there have citizens' rights and more importantly the right to reproduce freely.

That doesn't seem very compatible with the kind of cloning system and no family that it is hinted from Ledo's flashbacks, it wouldn't be "efficient" under Ledo's standards. Why would someone want to reproduce freely if he couldn't live with his offsprings? What would it matter whom your genes are going to be matched with?
Unless that was Chamber's way to say they can have "sex" which whoever they want. But then that would still mean people in Avalon reproduce through the "standard" mean and not through artificial fertilization.

Mangaka-chan
2013-04-28, 18:37
Chamber said that people there have citizens' rights and more importantly the right to reproduce freely.

That doesn't seem very compatible with the kind of cloning system and no family that it is hinted from Ledo's flashbacks, it wouldn't be "efficient" under Ledo's standards. Why would someone want to reproduce freely if he couldn't live with his offsprings? What would it matter whom your genes are going to be matched with?
Unless that was Chamber's way to say they can have "sex" which whoever they want. But then that would still mean people in Avalon reproduce through the "standard" mean and not through artificial fertilization.

I'm not sure if people on Avalon have families either, since Chamber said "family" is an archaic concept, which implies it's no longer in existence in the Galactic Alliance culture. And considering that the Galactic Alliance wants soldiers who are willing to throw their lives away for the "greater good of mankind" I feel like it's likely the concept of family was done away with so they'd have well trained individuals who are loyal to the ideals of the Alliance rather than to their kin.

Even if citizens could reproduce "freely" they might be required to hand their off spring over to the military for training at birth, and this is something so routinely done and ingrained in their culture that nobody questions the practice. Also if the people allowed to reproduce are those that are both elite soldiers and individuals who strictly adhere to the rules/orders anyway, I imagine no one would raise a fuse.

Dop
2013-04-28, 18:44
The spacecraft in the book closely resembled that of Project Daedalus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Daedalus) (more) (http://news.discovery.com/space/history-of-space/project-daedalus-size-comparison-110119.htm), a nuclear-propulsion design.

I spotted that too, and it was a nice reference.

This episode was all about the dichotomy between Ledo's society and the society on the Gargantia, and Ledo's struggle to understand it. Why aren't the children being drilled. Why are sick people not culled. What do people do when they're not in battle?

The Galactic Alliance is a harsh place. Certainly I'd not be allowed to live there.

I also liked the idea that Ledo was making the flute from the claw on kind of a subconcious level. He didn't consciously know why he was doing it. But then when Bebel played it he had that memory. Looks like his younger brother had not been seen as fit to live and so shot out into space as part of the cull.

I liked the idea that he'd learnt the basics of their language but still needed Chamber to translate more complicated phrases.

As for that big tower, the assembly at the top made me wonder if this was not just some "crow's nest" observation tower, rather than anything more sinister.

I am hoping that nothing bad happens in this show and that really it will be a case where Chamber finds a way back to the Galactic Alliance but Ledo decides not to go because he prefers life on the Gargantia.

Sure, Urobuchi has a reputation, but it would be cool if he belies it for a change!

Metaneo
2013-04-28, 19:07
And now we find that Chamber is willing to be directed by others... which, presumably would not extend to hostile actions directed toward Ledo or other humans, but might give people bad ideas about removing Ledo from circulation.

Yep, Ledo is still the main "operator". Chamber won't be hijacked so easily. It would be very dumb on Ledo's part to hand full control of Chamber over to somebody else.

Hmm but it seemed while Chamber could take directions from someone else, Ledo was still communicating with Chamber through the ear piece. Thus Ledo was still in control.

I think y'all are misunderstanding something. Ledo's mech is not Chamber, Ledo's mech is a Machine Caliber as he called it in Episode 1. Chamber is an AI that oversees the pilot. The two are not one-in-the-same. So when Ledo's machine caliber was being directed by someone else, it wasnt Chamber that was taking orders, it was his Machine Caliber that was taking orders.

DuelGundam2099
2013-04-28, 19:14
I liked the episode, it sets up the setting very nicely. I also found it weird that the Hideauze is just the word "hideous" with a different spelling. Not that I am complaining about that, although it would be nice to see them again.

creb
2013-04-28, 19:20
"You will eventually be reunited with the Army."

"Yes, I know."

Such simple words that almost certainly portend dark tidings to come. :heh:

Also, looking at this episode mechanistically, did they just lay the groundwork for someone to attempt to take control of Chamber with the exposition concerning Ledo being able to transfer command authority to another person?

'Cause, you know, no one really believes this story is going to be completely Amy-happy, right? :p

Kirarakim
2013-04-28, 19:20
I think y'all are misunderstanding something. Ledo's mech is not Chamber, Ledo's mech is a Machine Caliber as he called it in Episode 1. Chamber is an AI that oversees the pilot. The two are not one-in-the-same. So when Ledo's machine caliber was being directed by someone else, it wasnt Chamber that was taking orders, it was his Machine Caliber that was taking orders.


Yes they are. Chamber is both the mecha and the AI.

Good Smile's rendition of Chamber http://myfigurecollection.net/item/144370

Ledo also continues to refer to the mecha as Chamber.

When the mecha gets tangled, he yells Chamber
He says the place he is given to sleep is fine because he will be near Chamber

And so forth!

Gravitas Free Zone
2013-04-28, 19:21
I'll use your quotes to mention again that people might get ideas about killing Ledo to use ... the mecha.

I want to call the Machine Caliber "Chamber," if just because otherwise I have to call it the "Machine Caliber," which is as weird a name for anything as... any other name for a mecha, really. But I can resist the urge to accept their weird terms.

On that note, the mecha's shape in the legs reminds me of two ice cream cones in formation.

FlareKnight
2013-04-28, 19:30
This was a really good episode. I enjoyed seeing Ledo go around and express his questions about the way of life on Gargantia. A good chance to really express the differences between the culture there and the Alliance. A good case of everyone being human, but having extremely different cultural backgrounds.

Seems like to survive humanity threw a lot away for the sake of becoming more efficient. Survival was the top priority and if they couldn't beat these enemies then there wouldn't be a future. So no support for the weak, intensive training, making the most 'use' of every life. Those that survived long enough were deemed suitable for getting reproductive rights. That way the best humans would continue to survive and the best chance for victory could be had. In the end they are so different that even Ledo had no issues when questioned about getting rid of those that weren't useful.

I like that while they looked into these differences, Ledo is starting to look at things differently. He's willing to learn more. Not that he's throwing away all his beliefs, but he's not actively rejecting this different view point.

That flashback was sad which was added to by Ledo's reaction to it. Maybe his memories were messed with for the sake of efficiency or it was so traumatic he blocked it out himself. I feel for him. Certainly the more he learns about this place and the more he remembers, that desire to go back to his old lifestyle...probably isn't going to increase.

I just hope his biggest conflict is deciding whether to return or stay. Rather than having to fight off an Alliance invasion or something.

Gravitas Free Zone
2013-04-28, 19:35
I just hope his biggest conflict is deciding whether to return or stay. Rather than having to fight off an Alliance invasion or something.

Well, that would finish off the Dances With Wolves comparison...

ThereminVox
2013-04-28, 19:42
Ledo has finally secured room and board from Tom Nook Ridget, and is beginning to integrate into Ferngully the Gargantia.

It wasn't at all subtle, but it was nicely poignant that when it's first suggested to Ledo that he should meet Bevel/Bebel he quickly judges that conversing with the boy would be frivolous, and seeks out a more conventional authority figure from which to gather information. This proves fruitless, and yet Amy's "useless" brother brings worldview-shaking perspective to Ledo's mission. I'm not saying that Bevel is entirely right, or that the Alliance is some monstrous society, but they have left Ledo with a very narrow cone of experience; one that is rapidly expanding the longer he is among the Gargantians.

Something about the water collection scene made me feel like I was watching a feature length animated film. This was such a tremendous piece of world-building, and it one of my favorite sequences in the show thus far.

The language barrier continues to be handled deftly, though I suspect it won't continue much longer. Ledo is making a concerted effort to speak Earth-tongue with the assistance of his translator HUD, which probably includes phonetic guides along with real-time translation. He wouldn't be shown trying so hard if he weren't eventually going to be more or less fluent.

Algent
2013-04-28, 20:28
Never seen his previous work, so don't really know what it was like, but I'm enjoying the themes of this show. It's a nice take on slice of life.

Well he did say "this anime is made to heal hearts" or something like this about madoka :heh:.


That black tower look like some high tech part of something like 00's elevators or a colony. It's so completely out of place I expected Ledo to ask about it immediately.

zztop
2013-04-28, 21:43
Actually, I almost feel sorry for the Alliance people, if only for the circumstances that drove them to become the society depicted in the series thus far.

Their ancestors escaped Earth and fled across the stars in search of a new home, but found no refuge within the darkness of space, only the neverending blackness and the ravenous incursions of a monstrous alien species(assuming no other intelligent life was encountered).

I mean, it just seems rather sad they had to adapt themselves into that sort of society. I could sympathise with the Alliance on those grounds, but could not support the type of actions they do to maintain that society.

What does eveyone else think?

PS. I am curious as to whether all Alliance people are subjected to the same military training, or if Ledo is of an army caste serving the more privileged Alliance society(ala the society in The Hunger Games).

creb
2013-04-28, 22:12
I'm a pragmatist. I'd have zero issues with conforming to the type of lifestyle Ledo talks about concerning the Alliance, if circumstances warranted it (ie: fighting for humanity's survival).

That said, the fact that they call themselves the Alliance would suggest they used to be individual groups/nations/etc, so presumably there was a period of time during human expansion into space when they weren't fighting against this alien enemy. :)

I'm actually kind of curious what the time scale is here.

As for Ledo, and the other members of the Alliance, seeing as how eerily similar to Ledo that "kid" looked, and looking at all those "tubes", it seems almost certain that the Alliance operates on cloning individuals, and has at least two clones of an individual at different growth periods at any given time. Which makes sense, since human beings have a relatively long childhood phase, so to get around the issue of how long it takes to take a baby human and turn it into a soldier, compared to how quickly that soldier's life can be snuffed, you keep cloning it and stagger production of those clones on a timeline based on average life expectancy, which allows you to keep a far more efficient production line to keep your war machine operational than traditional human nurturing customs. :)

ChainLegacy
2013-04-28, 22:29
This was a truly amazing episode... Really hope this series can continue with this kind of storytelling because it is a rare thing to come across. You can almost hear a bit of doubt and dismay when Ledo acknowledges he will soon return to the fleet in the last scene. He's begun to understand that the barren existence of a soldier in space isn't all there is to human existence. I really like the culture shock he's experiencing. It's becoming accustomed to a foreign land, which is always a nice element in fiction, but his Spartan life in the Alliance offers much reflection as he now experiences the more traditional human mode of existence in Gargantia.

I enjoyed Bevel's line about how 'standing by' is basically what everyone is doing as they live their life. Ponderously philosophical for a quote from an anime character.

Jan-Poo
2013-04-28, 22:38
Ledo could paraphrase Kahlil Gibran's famous quote into:

"We live only to fight wars, all else is a form standing by".

Raviel
2013-04-28, 23:46
That said, the fact that they call themselves the Alliance would suggest they used to be individual groups/nations/etc, so presumably there was a period of time during human expansion into space when they weren't fighting against this alien enemy. :)

I'm actually kind of curious what the time scale is here.



Now that you mention, I'm kind of curious about the time scale as well.

Ledo did say they were fighting the Hideauze since the founding of the Alliance, the question now would be was the Alliance already founded when they left Earth.

I think you may be on to something when you said there may have been multiple groups in space because we were shown other destroyed human colonies in Ledo's training video. Perhaps the Alliance was once made up of more ships like Avalon but over the course of their fight against the Hideauze they were gradually worn down into the pragmatic society they are today.


P.S. : Next week on Gargantia, Ledo discovers girls and swimsuits.


EDIT: Was it just me, or did that black tower look a bit more "advanced" than anything else on Gargantia? Maybe it's an old communication tower nobody really knows how to use?

jeroz
2013-04-29, 00:03
I would be surprised if Ledo showed any reactions to the swimsuits next episode considering that he is used to the Starship Troopers style shower room. If anything most of the reactions would probably come from the girls :p

But yes, gravity ball is OP

Obelisk ze Tormentor
2013-04-29, 00:30
I would be surprised if Ledo showed any reactions to the swimsuits next episode considering that he is used to the Starship Troopers style shower room. Well, you know what people say: sometimes, a woman wearing erotic clothes is more arousing than wearing nothing at all :naughty:.

Eclipze
2013-04-29, 00:43
Well, you know what people say: sometimes, a woman wearing erotic clothes is more arousing than wearing nothing at all :naughty:.

Assuming he understands/is able to feel aroused. :D

calorie
2013-04-29, 00:57
My faith in this anime has been restored, some character development at last!

Dark Wing
2013-04-29, 01:14
And I don't think Gargantia embodies noble ideals. It's obvious they're complacent. And their leadership's full of short-sighted cowards.

Well that's a very cynical way to view it...:twitch:

Gargantia is simply a group of individuals who've come together with the common goal of survival in mind. They're not short sighted just not "big picture" type of people.

After all as long as you have everything you need to survive what else could you want?

Anh_Minh
2013-04-29, 01:27
Well that's a very cynical way to view it...:twitch:

Gargantia is simply a group of individuals who've come together with the common goal of survival in mind. They're not short sighted just not "big picture" type of people.

After all as long as you have everything you need to survive what else could you want?

Safety from pirates would be nice. So would a better fresh water gathering system than "everyone drops everything and gets buckets out".

ReddyRedWolf
2013-04-29, 01:43
I'm not sure if people on Avalon have families either, since Chamber said "family" is an archaic concept, which implies it's no longer in existence in the Galactic Alliance culture. And considering that the Galactic Alliance wants soldiers who are willing to throw their lives away for the "greater good of mankind" I feel like it's likely the concept of family was done away with so they'd have well trained individuals who are loyal to the ideals of the Alliance rather than to their kin.

Even if citizens could reproduce "freely" they might be required to hand their off spring over to the military for training at birth, and this is something so routinely done and ingrained in their culture that nobody questions the practice. Also if the people allowed to reproduce are those that are both elite soldiers and individuals who strictly adhere to the rules/orders anyway, I imagine no one would raise a fuse.

Oh cripes they are basically Farscape's Peacekeepers. Sebacean Peacekeepers generally do not have a concept of family. Anybody can freely copulate with anybody. It viewed as a recreation. But you have to be assigned permission to fully gestate a pregnancy. (Sebaceans can biologically hold off gestation of the embryo) Long term relationships are forbidden. Resulting children are trained as soldiers from birth.

Obelisk ze Tormentor
2013-04-29, 01:51
Assuming he understands/is able to feel aroused. :DIMO It’s a given that Ledo is able to “rise”. If not, he wouldn’t receive recommendation to reproduce freely in Avalon. He is a chosen ace-pilot after all, so I think he is as healthy as he can be. What matters now is what can actually make him aroused :naughty:.

ahelo
2013-04-29, 02:46
Why is Gargantia this . . . good? This episode . . . it was done so masterfully. Ledo slowly learning the language, Ledo showing emotions. . . there aren't many (or any) anime that can do stuff the way Gargantia does it.

Please, no butching, Urobutcher. These 4 episodes are surprisingly near perfect, just keep chugging along to what you've been doing.

Guardian Enzo
2013-04-29, 03:01
It's no exaggeration to say I've been pointing towards the moment when Ledo and Bevel speak since we first met Bevel in the second episode, because I could sense just the sort of dilemma it would present for Ledo. But not only didn't that meeting not disappoint, it exceeded my expectations.

Bevel represents a dilemma for Ledo in that he's the living embodiment of everything about Gargantia that makes no sense. For Bevel, this is surely the most exciting moment of his life - a chance to speak with a man from space, where he always argued that mankind must have fled, long ago. It's his vindication, and he's clearly thrilled - but Ledo is nothing if not deeply uncomfortable in speaking to Bevel. There's a rather heartbreaking tone to both of Ledo's conversations with Bevel in the episode, as relates to both characters. Bevel is a very smart and self-aware little boy, but that only makes him more aware of his encroaching fate. In contrast, it's actually Ledo who seems more the child - with his halting grasp of Japanese and the confusion in his mind, he's a very sad sight to see.

It's a terribly gut-wrenching moment Ledo even says to Bevel that in the Galactic Alliance, Bevel would have been "weeded out long ago" - an incredibly cruel and insensitive thing to say to anyone, never mind a sick child. But Bevel responds like someone who's clearly thought this through at great length, telling Ledo that he goes on because he's needed. Amy needs him, and "most of all, I need myself - so I live on." There's a simple and elegant truth to that notion that goes far beyond what most anime aspire to.

Tranhieu
2013-04-29, 03:01
What matters now is what can actually make him aroused :naughty:.

Chamber :naughty:

Folenfant
2013-04-29, 05:42
I must be about the only person that is enjoying this show but isn't absolutely blown away by it. I mean I haven't disliked a single episode or anything and I like all the characters, but it really hasn't gotten beyond that stage for me just yet. Really nothing in this episode stood out to me as incredibly exceptional content wise though it did have solid direction. I really can't think of terribly much else to say. We're past the 1/3 mark so I expect things to pick up shortly. I'm patiently waiting for this show to enrapture me like it appears to be so many, but I'm starting to feel it's never quite going to get to that level of experience for me.

taofd
2013-04-29, 06:42
Safety from pirates would be nice. So would a better fresh water gathering system than "everyone drops everything and gets buckets out".

From episode 3, it appears they do have a standing security force. Also Gargantia appears to be a group of loosely associated individuals who have formed a community out of mutual benefit and safety, similar to a merchant guild. As we've seen, they're a society that prizes voluntary exchange and non-violence.

They are the epitome of the opposite end of the spectrum when compared to the dystopian military Galactic Alliance.

Eratas123
2013-04-29, 06:54
Hmm, so the Protheans looked like humans at one point? Fascinating....

Anyway, Ledo seems to be even more suppressed than the others, probably due to his memory gaps. The people on the dying spaceship and his superior officer seemed just fine emoting.

Raviel
2013-04-29, 07:02
They are the epitome of the opposite end of the spectrum when compared to the dystopian military Galactic Alliance.

I don't think dystopia is the right word to describe the Alliance, pragmatic maybe, but definitely not dystopia.

Jan-Poo
2013-04-29, 07:06
I don't think dystopia is the right word to describe the Alliance, pragmatic maybe, but definitely not dystopia.

Depends on what you consider "dystopia". Brave New World (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brave_new_world) is generally considered a dystopian fiction, but it's a lot less tragic than Avalon in many ways, at least most people there are "happy".
One of its main "dystopic" point that the author describes is the complete abolition of the concept of family.

Eratas123
2013-04-29, 07:07
Agreed. We may condemn their actions now, but can you imagine what they're living with? An enemy that's stronger than them, that's utterly remorseless, and worst of all? They have no idea why they're being killed. These creatures offer no explanation, rationalization, or anything to the humans. As far as humanity is concerned, they just get drilled over and over again and they have to adapt. Killing sick people is monstrous, but it wastes resources that can be used on actual people who can fight.

Reminds of the Protheans and The Reapers: An enemy that pops out of fucking nowhere and doesn't stop till it utterly destroys you. You need to lose a lot of things just to survive.

lightbringer
2013-04-29, 07:09
I don't think dystopia is the right word to describe the Alliance, pragmatic maybe, but definitely not dystopia.

Pragmatic or not, a society based on universal forced conscription and murdering undesirable and/or weak/crippled individuals is exactly what I would call a dystopia. And from what we've seen and heard, the alliance is also practicing brainwashing.

taofd
2013-04-29, 07:12
I don't think dystopia is the right word to describe the Alliance, pragmatic maybe, but definitely not dystopia.

I think my original description is apt. Also props to whoever mentioned Brave New World.

I suspect, we'll be seeing just how much of a dystopia the GA is in coming slice of life episodes. We've already seen a sneak peak of what appears to be Ledo's friend / family being shunted into the future equivalent of a gas chamber.

Eratas123
2013-04-29, 07:16
The circumstances leading up to a dystopia matter as well. Look at "1984": People are killed, brainwashed, and kept down en masse. And the reason for this is because "We like the power it gives us". There is no moral justification to it at all; the ones who made it simply want to keep their hold and they love power. There's nothing keeping them that way and they could end it if they wanted - They just don't want to.

The Alliance may be brutal and cruel, but the alternative, death by Giant Squid Monster, is a horrible thing. Many would rather live with the Alliance and die fighting rather than claim to be a moral victor and be abandoned without a chance.

taofd
2013-04-29, 07:17
Agreed. We may condemn their actions now, but can you imagine what they're living with? An enemy that's stronger than them, that's utterly remorseless, and worst of all? They have no idea why they're being killed. These creatures offer no explanation, rationalization, or anything to the humans. As far as humanity is concerned, they just get drilled over and over again and they have to adapt. Killing sick people is monstrous, but it wastes resources that can be used on actual people who can fight.

Reminds of the Protheans and The Reapers: An enemy that pops out of fucking nowhere and doesn't stop till it utterly destroys you. You need to lose a lot of things just to survive.


Actually based off what we can see, we cannot determine the aliens to be the aggressor. I would bet good money that it's GA propaganda to make citizens think they're in the right for waging continuous war.

The circumstances leading up to a dystopia matter as well. Look at "1984": People are killed, brainwashed, and kept down en masse. And the reason for this is because "We like the power it gives us". There is no moral justification to it at all; the ones who made it simply want to keep their hold and they love power. There's nothing keeping them that way and they could end it if they wanted - They just don't want to.

The Alliance may be brutal and cruel, but the alternative, death by Giant Squid Monster, is a horrible thing. Many would rather live with the Alliance and die fighting rather than claim to be a moral victor and be abandoned without a chance.

Like I said, excellent propaganda if you already buy their argument.

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

-Benjamin Franklin

Anh_Minh
2013-04-29, 07:19
From episode 3, it appears they do have a standing security force. Also Gargantia appears to be a group of loosely associated individuals who have formed a community out of mutual benefit and safety, similar to a merchant guild. As we've seen, they're a society that prizes voluntary exchange and non-violence.
A security force that's instructed to fight the pirates... but not too hard. After all, the pirates only steal an "acceptable" quantity of resources and rape an "acceptable" quantity of women.

And they find such a situation satisfactory. Instead of, I don't know, try to persuade the pirates to change their ways. Or, if you're not so idealistic as to think that's realistic, band with other honest societies to hit the pirates hard once and for all. They'll still have to deal with small bands of pirates hiding from big forces and preying on isolated vessels, but the ocean won't belong to the pirates anymore.

That's why I say they're complacent.

They are the epitome of the opposite end of the spectrum when compared to the dystopian military Galactic Alliance.

We don't know what pushed the GA to such extremes. But assuming the Hideauze are every bit the threat Ledo thinks they are, I think his way of life has its own beauty. Bebel lives primarily for himself. So do most people IRL, me included. Ledo's people, OTOH, abandon every individual desire for the good of the whole. Because they don't have the luxury of doing anything less. To them, mankind's survival is an all consuming duty. Each of them, not just the soldier but even the culls, is an unsung hero.

Jan-Poo
2013-04-29, 07:20
I disagree. Nothing in the definition of "dystopia" says that it must be solely due to the people's fault.

Simply put a dystopia is any world where the future isn't "bright". It's the opposite of Utopia.
It might also be because of an external factor.

Orwellian society (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orwellian) is a more precise term for what you mean.

Eratas123
2013-04-29, 07:25
If the Alliance is lying, then sure. Then again, we have no idea because we never see anything beyond episode 1. Do note that the Hideauze (sp?) attack just as much as the alliance and even go after lone targets. Seems to me both sides can't claim superiority over another unless we find out their reasons.

The Benkamin Franklin quote sounds great in theory, but would the average human being really give everything up in the name of "Liberty"? If the sun were to explode right now and only those willing to submit to an oppressive government would be saved, do you really think people would cross their arms and tell them "We value liberty over everything"? I want to believe that, but something tells me its not gonna happen.

taofd
2013-04-29, 08:10
If the Alliance is lying, then sure. Then again, we have no idea because we never see anything beyond episode 1. Do note that the Hideauze (sp?) attack just as much as the alliance and even go after lone targets. Seems to me both sides can't claim superiority over another unless we find out their reasons.

The Benkamin Franklin quote sounds great in theory, but would the average human being really give everything up in the name of "Liberty"? If the sun were to explode right now and only those willing to submit to an oppressive government would be saved, do you really think people would cross their arms and tell them "We value liberty over everything"? I want to believe that, but something tells me its not gonna happen.

Depends on who you ask. Are people willing to die for their freedoms? If you agree to the previous question, then clearly, there are individuals who would be willing to lay down their lives in defense of liberty.

And actually, this is kind of applicable to the current political environment in the USA. There has been a gradual shift away from "neo-liberalism" and "conservatism" to "authoritarianism" and "voluntaryism".

Convenience does not always trump what is right.

edit: Your example of if the sun explodes doesn't eliminate the possibility for certain civil liberties. Clearly some must be curtailed, but it's up to the people to limit the scope of authority.

Eratas123
2013-04-29, 08:17
Yes, there are individuals, but the questions remains: Would these individuals be the majority or the minority? Anyway, at first glance, would you look at the Hideauze and think "Hmm, obviously the Alliance is the aggressor here and the giant aliens with more teeth than the Osmond family that eat people alive aren't".

Doesn't help that in anime Beauty = Goodness a lot of the time. Notice that Amy and the other Gargantian girls are cute and attractive in a wholesome way while Rackage looks like a Sadomasochist wearing garish make-up....and apparently, according to some sites, she's only 19!? Even Ledo, who's shown to have a conscience, is remarkably bruise-free and handsome despite being soldier who undergoes craploads of stress and fighting daily.

Gravitas Free Zone
2013-04-29, 09:05
In the scheme of Giant Space Thingies, the Hideauze are not exceptionally ugly, being giant space flowers (or giant space starfish) and giant space snails.

Ledo being good-looking: It would appear that the bad-looking clones are obviously defective and removed early, and that the nature of the fighting means that the pilot comes back generally whole, or is snail food.

There are bits of free thought in Alliance society, though... Ledo's commanding officer did "violate regulations" by sacrificing himself so that lower-ranked Ledo could live. However, that same CO tried to talk Ledo out of going back to save the crew on the Giant Bomb when the Hideauze were eating it.

Kirarakim
2013-04-29, 09:15
Ledo being good-looking: It would appear that the bad-looking clones are obviously defective and removed early, and that the nature of the fighting means that the pilot comes back generally whole, or is snail food.


We don't know any of this

1) The series has not said anything about anyone being eliminated in Ledo's society because of their looks.

He only said those who are not useful (the sickly and handicapped) are removed

2) We don't yet know if clones are involved, this is of course just a theory (although it is a viable one).

jeroz
2013-04-29, 09:18
I think he was joking

cyth
2013-04-29, 09:29
Ledo did say they were fighting the Hideauze since the founding of the Alliance, the question now would be was the Alliance already founded when they left Earth.

I think you may be on to something when you said there may have been multiple groups in space because we were shown other destroyed human colonies in Ledo's training video. Perhaps the Alliance was once made up of more ships like Avalon but over the course of their fight against the Hideauze they were gradually worn down into the pragmatic society they are today.This was what bothered me about the episode as well. Bevel may not think of Gargantia as an organization, but they do behave like one, perhaps just not with an enforced hierarchy in place. At the very beginning of the episode, while it was probably nothing more than a formalization, the one ship to join Gargantia had to sign a contract with them. Gargantia is what I'd call an ideal that every anarchist longs for, and it's slowly losing this innocence. The problem comes when such organizations get too big, where it's impossible to micromanage conduct and resolve conflicts, some rules have to be set up.

Gargantia is sort of like the Galactic Alliance, but on a different scale. If they wanted to beat space monsters, they had to team up. If independent ships wanted to survive the harshness of the sea, they had to merge into fleets.

Kirarakim
2013-04-29, 09:59
I think he was joking

Then I don't get the joke.

Jan-Poo
2013-04-29, 10:16
Doesn't help that in anime Beauty = Goodness a lot of the time.

Actually most villains are beautiful persons in anime. Ugliness is only shown on minor henchmen. Oh yeah, I guess the pirates of Suisei no Gargantia fit the trope perfectly.

At any rate Endless Knackwurst's avatar reminds us that there are anime where the insectoid aliens aren't necessarily evil.

Kirarakim
2013-04-29, 10:26
Actually most villains are beautiful persons in anime. Ugliness is only shown on minor henchmen. Oh yeah, I guess the pirates of Suisei no Gargantia fit the trope perfectly.



Right as a perfect example I don't think the pirate queen was supposed to be ugly (although I personally was not a big fan of her character design, I am sure many others appreciated it).

Her henchman were kind of ugly though.

As for the flower aliens, somehow they remind me of the aliens in Macross Frontier so I am also not expecting them to be evil.

I am not even necessarily expecting Avalon to be evil, maybe misguided would be a better term.

Eratas123
2013-04-29, 11:10
Sorry, I didn't mean ugly so much as....skimpy. Notice this: Heroes tend to be dressed or look good in a sensible and wholesome way: Ledo dresses in an all black bodysuit with a sleeveless blue undershirt while Amy is dressed in a practical orange cloth considering her job as a courier. Meanwhile Lady Rackage is dressed in a weird open Kimono thing with odd looking make-up and headwear and her slave girls are wearing rags and collars:/

Both are attractive, but the latter looks "depraved" in a way.

taofd
2013-04-29, 11:25
This was what bothered me about the episode as well. Bevel may not think of Gargantia as an organization, but they do behave like one, perhaps just not with an enforced hierarchy in place. At the very beginning of the episode, while it was probably nothing more than a formalization, the one ship to join Gargantia had to sign a contract with them. Gargantia is what I'd call an ideal that every anarchist longs for, and it's slowly losing this innocence. The problem comes when such organizations get too big, where it's impossible to micromanage conduct and resolve conflicts, some rules have to be set up.

Gargantia is sort of like the Galactic Alliance, but on a different scale. If they wanted to beat space monsters, they had to team up. If independent ships wanted to survive the harshness of the sea, they had to merge into fleets.

I don't see how they're slowly losing this innocence? Also what is this micromangement you speak of? So far, all exchanges and association between individuals have been voluntary-- and conflict resolution can be handled by individuals via arbitration. You don't necessarily need government to manage a small community like Gargantia.

Gravitas Free Zone
2013-04-29, 11:30
They might have gone a little over the top with the pirate character design and costuming...

Some comments on RandomC reminded me about what had been mentioned regarding the series's overall theme, of becoming an adult and feeling lonely going out into the big world for the first time. Looking at the analogy directly, the Alliance is Ledo's parents, telling him what to do, providing his basic needs, and melting him into goo if he did the wrong thing. Ledo's limited viewpoint and experience make it difficult for him to understand his old way of life beyond what he was told.

The limited viewpoint also means that I personally can't say much about the Alliance with regard to good/evil/ethics/fighting an extermination war against giant space thingies; from the Western contemporary perspective of most viewers, I wouldn't want to live like that, but there is much we don't know.

Jan-Poo
2013-04-29, 11:53
Sorry, I didn't mean ugly so much as....skimpy. Notice this: Heroes tend to be dressed or look good in a sensible and wholesome way: Ledo dresses in an all black bodysuit with a sleeveless blue undershirt while Amy is dressed in a practical orange cloth considering her job as a courier. Meanwhile Lady Rackage is dressed in a weird open Kimono thing with odd looking make-up and headwear and her slave girls are wearing rags and collars:/

Both are attractive, but the latter looks "depraved" in a way.

Well then I agree. But whenever an anime or manga go for a twist where the "evil guy" turns out to be good, or on the good side, he's usually depicted the same way a regular villain is.

Though I guess this doesn't matter either way since the Hideauze aren't human and they follow other tropes completely.

cyth
2013-04-29, 12:01
Also what is this micromangement you speak of? So far, all exchanges and association between individuals have been voluntary-- and conflict resolution can be handled by individuals via arbitration.Yeah, I realize this wasn't the best word for it. I think you corrected me pretty well. I meant interactions/deals between individuals on a micro level.
I don't see how they're slowly losing this innocence?Well, fact is Gargantia is growing bigger, and a bigger society needs things like contracts, more rules, and so on and so forth. When population gets big enough, chaos needs to be ordered to a certain degree.

Anh_Minh
2013-04-29, 13:32
Right as a perfect example I don't think the pirate queen was supposed to be ugly (although I personally was not a big fan of her character design, I am sure many others appreciated it).

Her henchman were kind of ugly though.

As for the flower aliens, somehow they remind me of the aliens in Macross Frontier so I am also not expecting them to be evil.

I am not even necessarily expecting Avalon to be evil, maybe misguided would be a better term.

They look like animals to me. Animals who want to eat us (or out technology, which is just as lethal, in space). So, not really "evil" the way people can be evil, but as Chamber said, enemies that can't be negotiated with.

Folenfant
2013-04-29, 14:11
They might have gone a little over the top with the pirate character design and costuming...

Some comments on RandomC reminded me about what had been mentioned regarding the series's overall theme, of becoming an adult and feeling lonely going out into the big world for the first time. Looking at the analogy directly, the Alliance is Ledo's parents, telling him what to do, providing his basic needs, and melting him into goo if he did the wrong thing. Ledo's limited viewpoint and experience make it difficult for him to understand his old way of life beyond what he was told.

The limited viewpoint also means that I personally can't say much about the Alliance with regard to good/evil/ethics/fighting an extermination war against giant space thingies; from the Western contemporary perspective of most viewers, I wouldn't want to live like that, but there is much we don't know.

The character designer is mostly known for erotic doujin work so its not terribly surprising in the long run. Pirates are gonna pirate too....not sure if you've ever seen One Piece but those outfits are still pretty tame compared to that one and that's like the quintessential pirate anime.

Also the alliance definitely gives off some serious Starship Troopers movie edition vibes. I can't help but suspect at least some inspiration was drawn from that movie with the space flowers filling a similar role to the bugs and the alliance being the Federation.

Kirarakim
2013-04-29, 16:32
They look like animals to me. Animals who want to eat us (or out technology, which is just as lethal, in space). So, not really "evil" the way people can be evil, but as Chamber said, enemies that can't be negotiated with.

We don't know that, we know very little about them.

Yes they were attacking the humans but we don't know who attacked first.

As it goes I wouldn't completely trust everything said by Avalon.

LostSome
2013-04-29, 16:36
This episode goes deeper in the difference between the Ledo`s life in the Gallactic Alliance and Gargantia.
Both sides have the good and bad points and the Gargantians`unability to see outside of the "status quo" is showned further.
I wonder if they even try to develop new tech... The very notion of change and innovation seems lost to them.

Ledo is honest to a fault and it`s show as both a good and bad thing.
He`s curious about everything and is working to learn to speak the native, which is the complete opposite to the Gargantians who don`t give a damn about his culture or language(Come one Amy, you could at least learn a few words to encourage him... I know I would.) with Bebel being the exception.
Seeing how hard Ledo`s trying to find a way home, I guess he`s a little homesick.

Kirarakim
2013-04-29, 16:39
I don't think Ledo is homesick per say, after all according to the first episode he's never even been home.

However being a soldier and fighting in the war are all he knew. They were his purpose.

Now he is in this strange world where he doesn't understand anything and he feels useless.

At this point he wants to get back because it gives him a purpose.

LostSome
2013-04-29, 16:50
I don't think Ledo is homesick per say, after all according to the first episode he's never even been home.

However being a soldier and fighting in the war are all he knew. They were his purpose.

Now he is in this strange world where he doesn't understand anything and he feels useless.

At this point he wants to get back because it gives him a purpose.

He`s missing his old life...
Maybe someone has a better word of it, I can`t think of a better word and it`s annoying me.:heh:
His lack of interest in going to Avalon was probably for the same reason.

Xion Valkyrie
2013-04-29, 16:54
We don't know that, we know very little about them.

Yes they were attacking the humans but we don't know who attacked first.

As it goes I wouldn't completely trust everything said by Avalon.

Well, it doesn't really matter even if the Alliance attacked first. If there was a resource the Alliance needed that the Space Flowers were also using, but there was no way to communicate between the two, then the only choice left to the Alliance is to fight.

It's like if you're out in the wild and all the fruit trees had tigers hanging around them. Your only choice is to fight the tiger off in order to get the fruit.

FredFriendly
2013-04-29, 17:03
The whole cloning discussion got me thinking what must that process be like? Not only do we not know what the privilege "to freely reproduce" actually means to the soldiers who have earned it, be it with another clone, a "real" human (if there are any left), a machine, or simply a petri dish, we don't know how those baby soldiers are conceived, gestated, or cared for as babies.

I would imagine that, if the army is, indeed, a "mass-produced" body of soldier clones, then there must also be an "army" of baby-producing females who are bred and born for the sole purpose of giving birth to perfect soldier babies. They are most likely artificially inseminated, kept in "baby factories," and brain-washed to believe that there is nothing else to life than pumping out a baby every nine months, like clockwork. If they produce defective clones, or are no longer able to produce, they are, of course, chucked out the shoot into the broad expanse of space like the rest of the refuse, Galactic Alliance style.

LostSome
2013-04-29, 17:09
What is with all the clones ?
Maybe all the grey hair and purple eyes are just part of their adaptation to space.
The boy could make a flute, so I don`t think it`s as crazy as some of you think... Maybe...:heh:

Look at all the interest in the GA.
I think they really should be planning a prequel of SnG called the Birth of the Gallactic Alliance.

Libros
2013-04-29, 17:11
What is with all the clones ?
Maybe all the grey hair and purple eyes are just part of their adaptation to space.
The boy could make a flute, so I don`t think it`s as crazy as some of you think... Maybe...:heh:

Look at all the interest in the GA.
I think they really should be planning a prequel of SnG called the Birth of the Gallactic Alliance.

I'd watch that in a heartbeat.:heh:

ReddyRedWolf
2013-04-29, 17:14
I would imagine that, if the army is, indeed, a "mass-produced" body of soldier clones, then there must also be an "army" of baby-producing females who are bred and born for the sole purpose of giving birth to perfect soldier babies. They are most likely artificially inseminated, kept in "baby factories," and brain-washed to believe that there is nothing else to life than pumping out a baby every nine months, like clockwork. If they produce defective clones, or are no longer able to produce, they are, of course, chucked out the shoot into the broad expanse of space like the rest of the refuse, Galactic Alliance style.

One of the Machine Calibers, the one Ledo tried to rescue, had a female pilot.

Also promo art material shows Ledo in a unisex shower with a girl. Said girl was with Ledo and a couple other guys during Chamber's maintenance.

FredFriendly
2013-04-29, 17:23
One of the Machine Calibers, the one Ledo tried to rescue, had a female pilot.

Also promo art material shows Ledo in a unisex shower with a girl. Said girl was with Ledo and a couple other guys during Chamber's maintenance.

And??? What has that go to do with my theory? Nothing.

Edit: Or, are you somehow suggesting that the Galactic Alliance has advanced bio-technology to the point where males can gestate babies?

ReddyRedWolf
2013-04-29, 17:43
And??? What has that go to do with my theory? Nothing.

Edit: Or, are you somehow suggesting that the Galactic Alliance has advanced bio-technology to the point where males can gestate babies?

Your theory states baby factories with women nothing but sex slaves but from what Ledo said everybody fights the Hideauze. That includes women as well.

Only the strong survive that has fulfilled the military hours quota has the right to breed and pass their genetic traits to the next generation.

This similar to the Clans in Battletech where a Clanner has to prove himself earning a Blood Name to allow his or her genes to be passed to the next batch of warriors.

Anh_Minh
2013-04-29, 17:57
We don't know that, we know very little about them.

Yes they were attacking the humans but we don't know who attacked first.

As it goes I wouldn't completely trust everything said by Avalon.

Sure, but we were talking about what they looked like. Judging a book by its cover. It's got neither more nor less basis than saying they're like the insects in Macross Frontier.

What is with all the clones ?
Maybe all the grey hair and purple eyes are just part of their adaptation to space.

Yeah. Or maybe they actually were brothers instead of clones.

FredFriendly
2013-04-29, 18:25
Your theory states baby factories with women nothing but sex slaves but from what Ledo said everybody fights the Hideauze. That includes women as well.

Well, if it ain't women gestating the babies, who or what is doing it?

And, no, not sex slaves. That's something completely different, which would imply some kind of interactive sexual activity between two or more humans. Perhaps Chamber was euphemistically using the phrase, "freely reproduce."

By the way, if you're somehow implying that I'm a sexist and don't think Galactic Alliance women are allowed to fight and are only used to gestate babies, you should read my previous post again. I neither said nor implied that only men were fighting the wars. You just seem to be missing the point of my speculation.

Only the strong survive that has fulfilled the military hours quota has the right to breed and pass their genetic traits to the next generation.

Well, either you understand Japanese where I have had to rely on a subbed English version, or you have knowledge based on material that has not yet been presented in the anime series, or you're just guessing, but the subs I read never said anything about "the right to breed and pass their genetic traits to the next generation." "Freely reproduce" is the closest that I got, and whatever that meant was not explained.

I am not going to assume that that phrase means the same to someone in the Galactic Alliance as it does to me, considering how the meanings of words and phrases in my own lifetime have changed. However, I would be inclined to believe that that "right" the soldiers are granted is simply like "shore leave" to a sailor, and what do sailors who have been at sea for a long time like to do when they do get on shore? Drink and have sex.

Also, considering that the Galactic Alliance is breeding soldiers and controlling their lives, it seems quite plausible to me that they also use some kind of brain-washing, mind control, or drugs, perhaps, to turn the soldiers sex drive completely off until they earn the right to "freely reproduce," when it would be turned back on for a very limited period of time. That would also explain the coed showers.

Jan-Poo
2013-04-29, 18:45
Well, if it ain't women gestating the babies, who or what is doing it?

It could be artificial wombs or cloning vats. That would be a lot more efficient provided that they have the technology.

Somehow it looks to me that you want to think that Avalon is more dystopian than we have seen so far. I can't deny that, we don't know, but I don't think your inferences are necessary conclusions either.

We know that on Avalon there are Citizen's right and the right to reproduce freely, why do you need to think that the cake is a lie?

ReddyRedWolf
2013-04-29, 18:52
Well, if it ain't women gestating the babies, who or what is doing it?

And, no, not sex slaves. That's something completely different, which would imply some kind of interactive sexual activity between two or more humans. Perhaps Chamber was euphemistically using the phrase, "freely reproduce."

The concept of family is foreign to Ledo. Likely women who are impregnated the fetus is removed and placed in an advanced incubator.

Yours truly was born too small to survive so I spent three months in an incubator before I can be leave the hospital.

Ledo never had a father or a mother raising him. These concepts are alien as they are very ancient human social orders that the Alliance got rid off for the sake of efficiency and of desperation.


By the way, if you're somehow implying that I'm a sexist and don't think Galactic Alliance women are allowed to fight and are only used to gestate babies, you should read my previous post again. I neither said nor implied that only men were fighting the wars. You just seem to be missing the point of my speculation.


I did not say you are sexist but pointing out what you said is not what Ledo describes of Alliance society he knows. It is either fight or on standby.


Well, either you understand Japanese where I have had to rely on a subbed English version, or you have knowledge based on material that has not yet been presented in the anime series, or you're just guessing, but the subs I read never said anything about "the right to breed and pass their genetic traits to the next generation." "Freely reproduce" is the closest that I got, and whatever that meant was not explained.


Chamber said Ledo is a an exceptional specimen of humanity in episode 1. In their society Alliance humans prove there worth fighting Hideauze as per the conversation Bevel.

The Alliance lifestyle is very Spartan where they get rid of the weak children.

Iron Maw
2013-04-29, 19:05
Best episode so far, this kinda of thing I want to see more of here. In fact I wouldn't mind if rest of series was just Ledo and Chamber conversing with Gargantia crew because this show is at it's best when there is interplay between characters rather than battles.

As for foreshadowing of Ledo reuniting with Galactic Alliance, I think it's very likely that there is no way he'll be able to reintegrate in that society again by the end of series. The Culture Shock he's going through is huge and despite not being Gargantia crew very long Ledo is already starting question his old life. It will be very interesting to see what Chamber might do when Ledo betrays Avalon.

I must be about the only person that is enjoying this show but isn't absolutely blown away by it. I mean I haven't disliked a single episode or anything and I like all the characters, but it really hasn't gotten beyond that stage for me just yet. Really nothing in this episode stood out to me as incredibly exceptional content wise though it did have solid direction. I really can't think of terribly much else to say. We're past the 1/3 mark so I expect things to pick up shortly. I'm patiently waiting for this show to enrapture me like it appears to be so many, but I'm starting to feel it's never quite going to get to that level of experience for me.

No I agree, this one my favorite shows of the season, but I don't there is anything especially outstanding or original about it. It's an "the whole is greater than the sum of its parts" kinda of thing. Everything for from production to the writing is pretty well crafted for the most part without much in the way of mishaps. I'm quite fine with that.

Gravitas Free Zone
2013-04-29, 19:09
If humanity is in extreme danger of disappearing, it is unlikely for females to be in combat roles because the extreme length of time required to naturally gestate a new human places a premium on women not being snail food. Assuming the Starship Troopers Shower image is actually true to the material, partially- or entirely-artificial gestation methods would be likely.

The parallel to the Clans in Battletech is fairly strong, with the twist that BT's Clans frowned upon random reproduction in their warriors, while here it seems like a bonus.

FredFriendly
2013-04-29, 19:25
It could be artificial wombs or cloning vats. That would be a lot more efficient provided that they have the technology.

Somehow it looks to me that you want to think that Avalon is more dystopian than we have seen so far. I can't deny that, we don't know, but I don't think your inferences are necessary conclusions either.

We know that on Avalon there are Citizen's right and the right to reproduce freely, why do you need to think that the cake is a lie?

Like I said, it's speculation, not conclusions. Who knows what methods they use or how far advanced their bio-technology is. For all we know, the gestation period might have been reduced to a month, or even a week, and the growth process from birth to maturity might also only take months or weeks. We are supposedly talking about a very long time into the future, after-all.

We are told that on Avalon there are Citizen's rights, but I've watched too much sci-fi to believe everything I'm told before I see actual evidence. That could all be just another form of brain-washing via virtual reality.

The concept of family is foreign to Ledo. Likely women who are impregnated the fetus is removed and placed in an advanced incubator.

Yup, this could be a possibility, as well. No more, and no less possible than my speculations. And who are these women that get impregnated? Soldiers?

Ledo never had a father or a mother raising him. These concepts are alien as they are very ancient human social orders that the Alliance got rid off for the sake of efficiency and of desperation.

Yup. I never said otherwise.

I did not say you are sexist but pointing out what you said is not what Ledo describes of Alliance society he knows. It is either fight or on standby.

Knowing that Ledo's entire life has been completely controlled by the military hierarchy, I certainly wouldn't rely on him for an unbiased and accurate synopsis of the Avalon society as a whole. All of his life experiences have been military related. He's never even been to Avalon.

Iron Maw
2013-04-29, 19:28
What is with all the clones ?
Maybe all the grey hair and purple eyes are just part of their adaptation to space.
The boy could make a flute, so I don`t think it`s as crazy as some of you think... Maybe...:heh:

Look at all the interest in the GA.
I think they really should be planning a prequel of SnG called the Birth of the Gallactic Alliance.

Considering what Ledo describe about the Alliance's extreme pragmatism, I'd say that cloning being a standard is very possible. It may only apply to the soldiers though since people on Avalon are able to reproduce naturally.

mikeomni
2013-04-29, 20:01
Your theory states baby factories with women nothing but sex slaves but from what Ledo said everybody fights the Hideauze. That includes women as well.

Only the strong survive that has fulfilled the military hours quota has the right to breed and pass their genetic traits to the next generation.

This similar to the Clans in Battletech where a Clanner has to prove himself earning a Blood Name to allow his or her genes to be passed to the next batch of warriors.

It's very possible they have artificial wombs like Battletech and Crest of The Stars. Battletech Clans had a caste system with warriors on top, but they were only a subset. We know too little about the alliance aside from their soldiers. The first episode seemed to have vehicles flying in tubes so there is a likelihood civilians. For every soldier you need lots of people in support role to maintain equipment, develop strategy, research, mining, logistics etc. You could use advance AI and robots for a lot of things but it would lead to stagnation if all management was done by machine. You need creativity to develop new technologies which allow you adapt to new problems.

If everything was purely utilitarian, a Machine Caliber wouldn't need colors when electronic IFF works better in space. And given how that kid made a flute, artistry shouldn't be unknown, even if only to promote mental development of children. Ledo was certainly more creative than Chamber. There must be these humans setting 'inefficient' policies like giving MC squadrons colors once they achieve full citizenship.

Dextro
2013-04-29, 20:05
The character designer is mostly known for erotic doujin work so its not terribly surprising in the long run. Pirates are gonna pirate too....not sure if you've ever seen One Piece but those outfits are still pretty tame compared to that one and that's like the quintessential pirate anime.

Also the alliance definitely gives off some serious Starship Troopers movie edition vibes. I can't help but suspect at least some inspiration was drawn from that movie with the space flowers filling a similar role to the bugs and the alliance being the Federation.

I actually think that it takes more after the book than the movie. The book, unlike the movie, is anything but lighthearted and makes a not so subtle point about the type of society it believes is better for humanity. One where the right to be a citizen must be earned through blood and where punishment for any crime is brutal and swift.

To me the Galactic Alliance seems to have reached the point where control is so absolute that you don't even need propaganda or fear, people are formatted from birth (or cloning) to serve the whole over themselves unquestionably. Even the commanding officer's decision to save Ledo back in episode one fits in with that theory: Ledo is younger and more likely to produce a greater number of genetically superior descendants so helping him survive is a better decision for the whole.

mikeomni
2013-04-29, 20:27
Are Amy and Bevel orphans? There appears to be only two beds in their unit. It doesn't seem to be a 'parents are away at work' situation typical in anime. You would think at least one parent would spend more time with Bevel given how he can't move freely. He's quite mature for his age. While Amy, despite her naivete, is treated more like an adult where her opinions are heard by fleet leaders.

Eratas123
2013-04-29, 20:49
Are Amy and Bevel orphans? There appears to be only two beds in their unit. It doesn't seem to be a 'parents are away at work' situation typical in anime. You would think at least one parent would spend more time with Bevel given how he can't move freely. He's quite mature for his age. While Amy, despite her naivete, is treated more like an adult where her opinions are heard by fleet leaders.

Most likely orphans. Bevel says "We need each other", so its likely they're the only family they have left.

Kaoru Chujo
2013-04-29, 21:06
1. I don't think "reproduce freely" is the best possible translation. I think it was "freedom to reproduce." Eat freely, sleep freely, and have the freedom to reproduce, is how I heard it. Method of reproduction not specified: normal sex, test tube, clone -- all possibilities.

2. I wonder if the Galactic Alliance is run by AI. People seem to be reduced to the level of "functional units."

3. I agree with Iron Maw that one interesting point will come when Ledo starts to act in the interests of the Gargantians rather than the Alliance. What will Chamber do?

4. Ledo had already started to drift off-norm in ep1, when he said he no longer had much interest in going to Avalon. He couldn't figure out what a "homeland" was. Now he's learning...

Eratas123
2013-04-29, 21:17
Chamber would likely follow protocol and inform the Alliance of their location regardless of what Ledo tells him. But the question is would he force Ledo to come back if Ledo chooses to stay.

Besides, is it even likely that the transmission will reach the Alliance? And if it does, would they expend all that time and energy to save one mook? Conquering Earth may sound great in theory, but it has no landmass and the fleets aren't nearly enough to support the people the Alliance has - They'd be fighting a war on two fronts: Fighting against the earth citizens and expending resources to colonize the planet while the Hideauze tear at their backsides. They might write off Ledo as being an acceptable loss.

creb
2013-04-29, 21:21
There were women fighting in episode 1. I think it far more likely they have vats, etc, than they have a society where women are just breeding stock. :heh:

Jan-Poo
2013-04-29, 22:25
Besides, is it even likely that the transmission will reach the Alliance?

Depend on what kind of technology they use. It seems that Chamber and Ledo expect an answer in spite of the fact that "only" a few months have passed. This implies that they have a faster than light system of communication.
This goes on a total sci-fi speculation field and therefore it is totally impossible to tell whether it is realistic or not.


And if it does, would they expend all that time and energy to save one mook?

Depends on how much costly it is for them to travel through space. To be honest I can't think of many things that would be more costly than space travel in terms of energy, but there are several sci-fi stories which introduced purely fictional systems of space travel that make it viable at low costs.

Chamber seems to think that they will retrieve Ledo so I think that logically the rescue operation shouldn't be more costly than what they normally spend in terms of both time and energy to raise and train a pilot like him.

Eratas123
2013-04-29, 22:39
It might not be costing them that much, but remember how Ledo got there: He got sucked into a wormhole and tossed somewhere that not even Chamber has any data on. Even if they did want to rescue Ledo, the chances of them replicating his stunt and then flying back are really low. The only other option they have is going to the Sol system the old fashioned way, which also seems way too big of a risk for just one guy.

Jan-Poo
2013-04-29, 22:53
Old fashioned way? Anything less than faster than light travel would take years and most likely thousands of years if not more.

It is not logic to assume that they cannot use their "telemothy swing" wherever they please provided they have the necessary coordinates, else Ledo would have already given up any hope of returning.

Eratas123
2013-04-29, 22:57
Yeah, but Ledo and Chamber aren't the best sources, are they? Chamber's an AI and so he can't voice his opinion. Meanwhile, Ledo's been brainwashed to believe that the Alliance will rescue him because his mind can't comprehend the alternative; that he's stuck. Hell, when Bevel asked him questions on what happens after the war he says "Standby for new orders". Ledo's doing just that "Standing by for rescue" because he has no idea what else to do.

Jan-Poo
2013-04-29, 23:01
I don't think "brainwashing" is the correct term. "Conditioning" is more apt. I know I'm nitpicking but there are important differences.

Ledo doesn't seem to be lacking rationality and he didn't lose his humanity nor his ability to make independent judgements.

He's being conditioned in a way to look at things in a precise way, but he's not brainwashed and therefore he should be able to tell what's impossible and what isn't.


PS: You have another proof of that with Kugel, Chamber's commander. Ledo comments that he is going against military regulations. A brainwashed person wouldn't do that. Therefore the alliance doesn't brainwashes its soldiers.

Eratas123
2013-04-29, 23:10
Sorry, you're right:) Condition, not brainwashed. Anyway, even if he can make individual judgements, there's a high likelihood that he can't comprehend the alternative; he's not worth the trouble. Again, his conversation with Bevel shows that when he doesn't have an answer he defaults to "Standby for orders". When Bevel questions him on what he'd do if the orders never came, he clams up and doesn't answer.

He's been conditioned to believe that he'll be extracted because he thinks that, as a young soldier, he still has a lot of uses and can kill a lot more before he dies. Anyway, are soldiers like him even worth the trouble of rescuing? He's not a commander or a person of high ranking power - He's cannon fodder.

Gravitas Free Zone
2013-04-29, 23:15
He's been conditioned to believe that he'll be extracted because he thinks that, as a young soldier, he still has a lot of uses and can kill a lot more before he dies. Anyway, are soldiers like him even worth the trouble of rescuing? He's not a commander or a person of high ranking power - He's cannon fodder.

There was that moment in the first episode where his commander performed the rear-guard operation, in violation of standing regulations, so that the younger Ledo could "stay alive to kill more bugs snails." That suggests, on top of the giant bomb being sacrificed to save the fleet, that ordinarily the Alliance will favor sacrificing the small to save the large.

Still, the commander defying orders suggests that it isn't entirely hidebound up at the top.

Jan-Poo
2013-04-29, 23:22
Which is why in the end it's only a matter of costs.

I don't know how much "cannon fodder" fits in his case.
The reason in the real world there are teams specifically trained to retrieve fighter pilots isn't simply because we value life and we take care about our soldiers, there are actually costs associated with their trainings. It is actually more economically advantageous to retrieve them rather than replace them, at least... in most cases.

Now we don't know how much costly it is for the alliance to raise and train machine caliber pilots. You need to consider both costs in terms of time and energy.
Then you need to consider the costs in terms of time and energy for them to go to earth, which again we don't know because we have no idea how the telemothy swing works or even how far they are from earth.

It might be entirely possible that to them going to earth is as much as bothersome and costly as it us to travel from home to the nearest drugstore.

Eratas123
2013-04-29, 23:30
Given that earth was "lost" to them, I can't imagine its convenient for them to go there for a rescue op. Considering how valuable it is, its kinda hard to imagine them not moving there en masse if it wasn't inconvenient for them.

Jan-Poo
2013-04-29, 23:38
Apparently to them Earth was just an useless block of ice. And perhaps they also lost its coordinates through the years.

According to Ledo the alliance would likely move en masse there as soon as they learn that it is inhabitable.


There might be other more complex reasons. I think that there is something amiss regarding Earth and its fate.

LostSome
2013-04-29, 23:42
A signal usually only give your location... Unless Chamber is broadcasting "We found Earth and humans can live on it !".

Now you have to think that Ledo was probably put DOA six months ago and getting a signal from him again could look suspicious for his superiors.

jeroz
2013-04-30, 00:43
Btw, the character designer also worked for another anime series in the past
Ever heard of Kamichu?

Repelsteeltju
2013-04-30, 02:29
Again, his conversation with Bevel shows that when he doesn't have an answer he defaults to "Standby for orders". When Bevel questions him on what he'd do if the orders never came, he clams up and doesn't answer. Well Ledo said he'd 'remain on standby' should that happen. To which Bevel responds: 'that's what the people of the Gargantia are doing', though he rephrases it as 'living on'. Disregarding that being 'on standby' would more likely than not mean some form of suspended animation or cryosleep for soldiers of the Alliance like Ledo.

Eratas123
2013-04-30, 04:10
I don't think so. Assuming the alliance isn't being monstrous by choice rather than necessity, they'll probably lighten up considerably once the hideauze are dead and there's nothing threatening to chew off their butts.

Anh_Minh
2013-04-30, 05:30
Considering what Ledo describe about the Alliance's extreme pragmatism, I'd say that cloning being a standard is very possible.
Only if cloning is at all practical. It might not be, no matter how advanced the technology.

I actually think that it takes more after the book than the movie. The book, unlike the movie, is anything but lighthearted and makes a not so subtle point about the type of society it believes is better for humanity. One where the right to be a citizen must be earned through blood and where punishment for any crime is brutal and swift.

I remember reading it wasn't so much about "better" as "necessary under certain circumstances".

Chamber would likely follow protocol and inform the Alliance of their location regardless of what Ledo tells him. But the question is would he force Ledo to come back if Ledo chooses to stay.

Besides, is it even likely that the transmission will reach the Alliance? And if it does, would they expend all that time and energy to save one mook? Conquering Earth may sound great in theory, but it has no landmass and the fleets aren't nearly enough to support the people the Alliance has - They'd be fighting a war on two fronts: Fighting against the earth citizens and expending resources to colonize the planet while the Hideauze tear at their backsides. They might write off Ledo as being an acceptable loss.
The discovery of an habitable planet would be pretty major. The lack of landmass is a lot easier to solve than the lack of breathable atmosphere and gravity you find in space, and they managed that easily enough. As for the Earthers... They're not a significant threat, even in the unlikely case they'd be unwilling to negotiate.


Best episode so far, this kinda of thing I want to see more of here. In fact I wouldn't mind if rest of series was just Ledo and Chamber conversing with Gargantia crew because this show is at it's best when there is interplay between characters rather than battles.

As for foreshadowing of Ledo reuniting with Galactic Alliance, I think it's very likely that there is no way he'll be able to reintegrate in that society again by the end of series. The Culture Shock he's going through is huge and despite not being Gargantia crew very long Ledo is already starting question his old life. It will be very interesting to see what Chamber might do when Ledo betrays Avalon.



Barring some dark revelation about the Hideauze not actually being a threat, I hope that doesn't happen. Ledo risked his life to fight save fellow soldiers, and his CO sacrificed himself because he believed there were more dead enemies in Ledo's future than in his. All that to defend humanity. And Ledo would throw it all away, desert his comrades to... what? Live in comfort among scantily clad women?

I can see the temptation, and I'm no hero myself. If I had to face a space monster, what I'd do would have more in common with pissing my pants than with any kind of heroics. But I expect better of actual heroes like Ledo.

MeisterBabylon
2013-04-30, 06:37
You must remember, after that mission, Ledo was to be honorably discharged and to reproduce in accordance of Darwinism. Maybe he's a bit different from a normal soldier given that circumstance.

------

I also don't see the Hideauze as the 'enemy', but rather the top of the food chain, and raw energy was their sustainance. They were probably eating the neo-human's batteries and reactors, which consequently meant the contents dying along with it. They most probably just grazed on stars and planets to create more biomass and colonized the galaxy as such, where they encountered an expanding force called Humanity.

To us, we are flesh and bone riding a reactor of unfathomable power encased in suits of eldritch technology.

To them, we're flying little stars with a coating of planet.

So, like a cow will not negotiate with a farmer, and a farmer just harvests the cow for the meat, the aliens feast on this new morsel and search for more. No one is evil, just the order of Nature, in a way. It could explain why the aliens all massed on that power magnet which Ledo saw during his retreat despite its reactor going nova, it just looked reeeaaal tasty.

The neohumans saw them as in their way of expanding through the stars, because no fleet is going to be able to jump properly when zerged, can they? And then when the Hideauze acquired a taste for reactor, little wonder then that Avalon may well be facing extinction. Avalon may have taken the logical route to reconfigure its entire societal structure, throwing precious biomass at an ever expanding foe just to find a way forward, or even just to survive.

This series can end 2 ways:

1) a glorious last stand over Earth with 1 machine against a friggin hive, only to have the neohuman fleet warp in and deal a surgical strike against the Queen, or...

2) to have Ledo settle in completely to his new life, while the ending scenes show Avalon completely wiped out, and the entire Hive coming for Sol and its little 2rd planet. Cliffhanger. :D

Anh_Minh
2013-04-30, 07:28
You must remember, after that mission, Ledo was to be honorably discharged and to reproduce in accordance of Darwinism. Maybe he's a bit different from a normal soldier given that circumstance.
A few weeks of leave isn't a discharge.



------

I also don't see the Hideauze as the 'enemy', but rather the top of the food chain, and raw energy was their sustainance.
Though I agree on the circumstances, I don't think it matters how they see us. They're the enemy because they kill people and threaten the very existence of human civilization.

Bern-san
2013-04-30, 08:03
For now I'm really liking the anime and this has to be my favorite episode so far. I wonder why the adults don't try to talk to Ledo about information about the Galactic Alliance or even think of the possibilities if more mechas like Chamber appear and decide to stay in the Earth or something. I mean I find it weird that only Amy and her brother are the ones who show most interest in him and his environment.

The clone theory is interesting although for now I think that person was his little brother. I don't know what's more tragic, our point of view about him knowing how unfair life in the Galactic Alliance is or the fact that since Ledo grew up like that he didn't realize until now that he doesn't have concepts like family or do something without expecting benefits for you.

Forever
2013-04-30, 08:23
I still think that boy was his brother. Discarded for being useless.

Anyway this story can only end in disaster.

1) GA finds the planet, eliminate the inhabitants as it is more efficient than to negotiate with someone so much less superior.

2) Hediaze follows GA here or somehow finds the planet. Also GG.

BY some miracle, a twist might happen.

Hediaze finds the planet, but does not attack. Then Ledo discovers they are a defensive species, defending themselves from humans who want to plunder them...

Jan-Poo
2013-04-30, 09:15
*snip*

I'm not so sure that the Hideauze are so mindless as you describe them. That giant flower-like cannon was firing at the enemy fleet, which means they can recognize humans as threats and not simply as food.

I wouldn't exclude that those hideauze rather sacrificed themselves to destroy the dangerous bombs rather than deciding to have a snack in the middle of gruesome battle.

MeisterBabylon
2013-04-30, 09:42
I'm not so sure that the Hideauze are so mindless as you describe them. That giant flower-like cannon was firing at the enemy fleet, which means they can recognize humans as threats and not simply as food.

I wouldn't exclude that those hideauze rather sacrificed themselves to destroy the dangerous bombs rather than deciding to have a snack in the middle of gruesome battle.

That's the act of the Queen/Hivemind/Flower Lord, I believe. However, the Overmind should be basal enough to just be concerned with most efficiently getting the next meal. Its intelligent like a dolphin can be, but wholly focused on eating.

Again, it's just me taking from the Tyranid model of organization.

dmaxzero
2013-04-30, 10:12
For a society that works completely on the focus of a war for survival against a destructive species, one person does not qualifies to be rescued or to be looked above everyone else to spend any form of above the minimal effort; at a small scale, between squad members they can maybe do what his boss did, but on a large organization level they wont.

Things change if the distress signal includes an "habitable planet" in the data. Otherwise he is stranded for good, his name put in the list of KIA and MIA, clone him again maybe and move on, they have war against a nearly indestructible life form to wage.

So I think Ledo and Chamber are only moving among the lines of typical training behavior, send distress signal and wait for an answer, because that is what they were trained and conditioned to do.

But, this is anime, there is no reason to be entirely logical or pragmatical, and is all in the plot driven story, so who knows.

Eratas123
2013-04-30, 10:52
Exactly: How will the Alliance know Ledo is on earth/a habitable planet? They don't know earths coordinates and they think its lost, so they'll look at the signal and think "The AI must have glitched and is sending a signal even if the pilot's dead. Not worth the trouble." because, as far as they know, Ledo was lost on an uninhabitable planet.

Jan-Poo
2013-04-30, 11:06
Why should they assume that the AI is glitched and the pilot is dead? The machine caliber can put the pilots in cold sleep, so whether he was in an inhabitable planet or in the middle of nowhere it wouldn't change his chances of being still alive.

Moreover Chamber said that they didn't "answer", and unless the translation I read was wrong this means that they are expecting to be contacted before being rescued.
The lack of answer means that something is wrong and not simply that they are ignoring it. Why would they not even bother to ask?

Anh_Minh
2013-04-30, 11:07
As far as they know, Ledo could be literally anywhere. Why assume a glitch instead of checking it out? What, exactly, is the trouble you're speaking of? It could be a major expedition requiring thousands of people and taking years. It could be a day-trip by an automated rescue ship. We don't know.

MrTerrorist
2013-04-30, 11:22
Whoa. The Alliance policy on their citizens makes the film version of Terran Federation look nicer.

In the Federation, you need a license if you want children even if your not working with the government but in the Alliance, the privilege to breed is only granted after you done military service of 16 years.

If your sick, injured, maim, etc, the Federation will pay for your health bill and help you continue your duty, but in the Alliance, your useless and must be culled.

Anh_Minh
2013-04-30, 11:22
Depends on how treatable it is, I guess.

Eratas123
2013-04-30, 11:33
I'm basing my assumptions on what I saw: In Episode 1, saving the crew of a ship was deemed too "risky" because of the Hideauze (Can we get a different name for these guys?) - Reasonable enough. But then, how would they get to Ledo? He was lost in a wormhole practically crawling with Hideauze.

Though I'll stop this here: We really don't know how troublesome it'll be, so lets just wait.

ReddyRedWolf
2013-04-30, 11:43
Hideauze (Can we get a different name for these guys?)

Hideous works too.

Triple_R
2013-04-30, 11:53
For now I'm really liking the anime and this has to be my favorite episode so far. I wonder why the adults don't try to talk to Ledo about information about the Galactic Alliance or even think of the possibilities if more mechas like Chamber appear and decide to stay in the Earth or something. I mean I find it weird that only Amy and her brother are the ones who show most interest in him and his environment.

While I wouldn't go quite as far as Anh_Minh did in his criticisms, I do think that the leadership of the Gargantia is somewhat... passive. So they're reactive rather than proactive. And they're pretty loosely organized, with a few guiding principles but otherwise rather flexible.

I think this is fitting in a way. The Gargantia strikes me as a largely pleasant place to be born, grow up, and live in, but it is also somewhat limited. As limited as Ledo's world was, so to is the world of Gargantia. It's just that the limitations are different in cause and type.

Ledo was limited by extensive military conditioning, and strict rules and regulations in accordance with that. His world involved little else except battle.

Amy's world is limited by environmental circumstances and the tech level of her people. People certainly seem to enjoy more personal freedom in Amy's world than in Ledo's, but there's real practical limits to those personal freedoms for those in Amy's world.

Such limitations can close minds somewhat, leading to a calm acceptance of the status quo, and people trying to make the most of things in little ways here and there (such as carving out a flute and playing it). People take things day-by-day rather than year-by-year. Improvising triumphs over long-term planning.


With this in mind, I don't have the same problem with "catching rainwater" as some other viewers had. I find it reasonably plausible for the sort of society we see in Gargantia. Plus, even if they have another means of fresh water collection, that other means may be costly in its own way.

Let's say, for instance, that they have some device that can turn ocean saltwater into drinkable fresh water. Even if so, this device may take up a lot of electrical energy in order to use - While you get more drinkable water out of it, perhaps it also depletes your energy stores. You may simply create one hole/need while filling another. Whereas rainwater come at no cost at all, of course, so I can see how people of limited resources would take to collecting it.


The clone theory is interesting although for now I think that person was his little brother.

I think that was either Ledo's brother, or the person that Ledo was cloned from. Either way, the two are genetically tied. Their similarities were too great to be coincidental, imo.


As for the debate on whether or not the Galactic Alliance is a dystopia - For me, this depends on if it's legitimately based on "desperate times call for desperate measures", or if something darker/more insidious is behind it. I'm not prepared to make a judgement call either way yet. However, here is where I think Urobuchi's reputation as a darker-themed writer could be relevant - If I had to lean one way or the other, I'd lean towards "something darker/more insidious" since that's more in keeping with Urobuchi's writing style.


It's interesting that some are speculating that the Hideauze are basically like the Beta of Muv-Luv - That they're basically just looking to chow down on food/fuel.

What if it's the reverse? What if the Hideauze inhabit a resource-rich and/or energy-rich region of space, and the leadership of the Galactic Alliance are just attempting a straight-up, old-fashioned resource grab? Perhaps the military of the Galactic Alliance are being duped into thinking they're fighting a war for humanity's very survival, when really they're just fighting for the future's version of Big Oil and Big Gas. :heh:

I think this is an interesting possibility worth considering.

Kirarakim
2013-04-30, 12:05
I expect Avalon is a dystopia but I have a feeling that we aren't going to really explore it in depth or this is a series about changing a society. There just really isn't enough time for that in a one cour series and if the story does try to go there I expect it will be rushed and not satisfying at all.

To me this is a story about how Ledo's perspective will change through his experiences on Gargantia.

I do think Avalon will come back into the story but I don't think this will be a story about changing Avalon (unless the series ends with Ledo going back to change things). But definitely to me the greatest and most important change will be in Ledo himself (and that is already happening).

It's also possible that the Gargantians will change because of Ledo. As in it doesn't have to be a one way street that they can both impact each other positively, even if it is only Ledo teaching them about technology.

Triple_R
2013-04-30, 12:18
I expect Avalon is a dystopia but I have a feeling that we aren't going to really explore it in depth or this is a series about changing a society. There just really isn't enough time for that in a one cour series and if the story does try to go there I expect it will be rushed and not satisfying at all.

I agree. This is Ledo's story, not Avalon's.

Don't worry. I won't have the same hopes/expectations for this show as I did with Psycho-Pass. ;)

Here, Ledo finding out some dark secrets about the Galactic Alliance would feel more important in and of itself than what similar scenes did in Psycho-Pass and Madoka Magica, imo. For Ledo, it could represent the culmination of great character growth and realization, rather than mostly being a matter of "What are you going to do about it?"


I do think Avalon will come back into the story but I don't think this will be a story about changing Avalon (unless the series ends with Ledo going back to change things). But definitely to me the greatest and most important change will be in Ledo himself (and that is already happening).

Agreed. This show isn't set in the Galactic Alliance. It's set in Gargantia (whereas Psycho-Pass is set in Sybil-controlled Japan, and Madoka Magica is set in witch-infested/threatened Mitakihara Town). That makes a big difference, imo. The narrative implication is clear - The Galactic Alliance is only as important to this story as it is important to Ledo personally, and (possibly in time) the Gargantia protagonists. Strictly speaking, this isn't dystopian fiction, though it may involve a dystopia.


It's also possible that the Gargantians will change because of Ledo. As in it doesn't have to be a one way street that they can both impact each other positively, even if it is only Ledo teaching them about technology.

Good point.

Kirarakim
2013-04-30, 13:06
There are a couple lines of Ledo's in the first episode that stuck out to me

One that he didn't really seem to care about going to Avalon, becoming a citizen meant nothing to him. We can kind of see this in his reaction to Gargantia too. All Ledo knows and even wants is to be a soldier. Being a soldier and fighting the Hideauze gave Ledo a purpose and a place to belong.

From our perspective (and Amy's) Ledo's life seems pretty rough, but for him it wasn't rough at all.

Right now Ledo feels out of place and lost not just because he is in a foreign place but because he lost his purpose. This probably will tie into what Gen said about this being a story about "going out into the world isn't scary".


The other thing Ledo said in the first episode was "when was the last time I was afraid?". As in Ledo may no longer be afraid for himself but then he has no one to be afraid for. That also I expect to change.

He also talks about how he does what he is told and his never questions anything but of course this situation is forcing him to question everything.

Anh_Minh
2013-04-30, 13:18
I expect Avalon is a dystopia but I have a feeling that we aren't going to really explore it in depth or this is a series about changing a society.
I hope it's not. Mostly because the assumption of Gargantia's moral superiority annoys me to no end.

I'm basing my assumptions on what I saw: In Episode 1, saving the crew of a ship was deemed too "risky" because of the Hideauze (Can we get a different name for these guys?) - Reasonable enough. But then, how would they get to Ledo? He was lost in a wormhole practically crawling with Hideauze.

Though I'll stop this here: We really don't know how troublesome it'll be, so lets just wait.
Well, yes, that's the question - would they even need the same wormhole? I thought it was temporary to start with.


It's interesting that some are speculating that the Hideauze are basically like the Beta of Muv-Luv - That they're basically just looking to chow down on food/fuel.

What if it's the reverse? What if the Hideauze inhabit a resource-rich and/or energy-rich region of space, and the leadership of the Galactic Alliance are just attempting a straight-up, old-fashioned resource grab? Perhaps the military of the Galactic Alliance are being duped into thinking they're fighting a war for humanity's very survival, when really they're just fighting for the future's version of Big Oil and Big Gas. :heh:

I think this is an interesting possibility worth considering.

It could be both. Maybe the humans are the aggressors, but need the resources guarded by the Hideauze or they'll die out in a few decades or centuries.

Triple_R
2013-04-30, 13:57
I hope it's not. Mostly because the assumption of Gargantia's moral superiority annoys me to no end.

I think this assumption is based a bit on Gen's tendencies as a writer.

At least in his anime works, Gen likes to have philosophical conflicts between emotionally-driven moral idealists on one side, and logic-driven ruthless numbers-crunching pragmatists on the other side.


This isn't just for large conflicts (Madoka/Kyubey, Akane/Sybil) but also often for secondary ones (Sayaka/Kyouko, Akane/Gino).

It's pretty clear that Gargantia and the Galactic Alliance are similarly in conflict in Ledo's mind. So... which is which? Which is the emotionally-driven moral idealist, and which is the logic-driven ruthless numbers-crunching pragmatist?

Honestly, I don't think that Gargantia has the brains necessary to be ruthless numbers-crunching pragmatists. :heh: But their society certainly has a lot of kids frolicking about with smiles on their faces, and people living happily, and people with an almost quaint lack of guile to them. And Amy did object to killing all the pirates, while Bellows put forward something of a moral guideline that these people seem to take very seriously.

Yeah, Gargantia could well be Gen's latest "emotionally-driven moral idealist". So the Galactic Alliance is perhaps presumed to fill the antithesis role, especially since some of what we know about it seems to fit that role well. I'm inclined to think that Kyubey and Sybil would approve of how the Galactic Alliance is doing things...


It could be both. Maybe the humans are the aggressors, but need the resources guarded by the Hideauze or they'll die out in a few decades or centuries.

Good point. That could complicate things in a compelling way.

Kirarakim
2013-04-30, 14:06
At least in his anime works, Gen likes to have philosophical conflicts between emotionally-driven moral idealists on one side, and logic-driven ruthless numbers-crunching pragmatists on the other side.


I definitely do not see that this is the case in this story. Gen often does explore ideas like this and I think he actually does it at expense of characters at times. The characters become more archetypes or mouthpieces for the ideas and philosophies Gen is trying to get across in the story.

In this case though I think we are getting much more of a character piece than a philosophical piece.

I don't think this story is so much about exploring how horrible Avalon is, I think it is more about learning to see things from new perspectives, questioning things, and not being afraid to change who we are and what we believe.

Just look at Ledo's discussion with Bebel. Bebel doesn't say OMG how horrible that they kill people like me in your society, no he opens up Ledo's world a bit makes him look at things from a different perspective

Bebel explains to Ledo why he does think he is worthy, not why Ledo's thinking is wrong.

I know people didn't like the thing about the pirates but I found this episode with Bebel decidedly not preachy. And it's not just Bebel, Amy doesn't judge Ledo either when she hears what his society does. Well Amy thinks Ledo comes from a tough place but she doesn't think horribly of him for what he said.

Anh_Minh
2013-04-30, 14:08
I think this assumption is based a bit on Gen's tendencies as a writer.

At least in his anime works, Gen likes to have philosophical conflicts between emotionally-driven moral idealists on one side, and logic-driven ruthless numbers-crunching pragmatists on the other side.


This isn't just for large conflicts (Madoka/Kyubey, Akane/Sybil) but also often for secondary ones (Sayaka/Kyouko, Akane/Gino).

It's pretty clear that Gargantia and the Galactic Alliance are similarly in conflict in Ledo's mind. So... which is which? Which is the emotionally-driven moral idealist, and which is the logic-driven ruthless numbers-crunching pragmatist?

Honestly, I don't think that Gargantia has the brains necessary to be ruthless numbers-crunching pragmatists. :heh: But their society certainly has a lot of kids frolicking about with smiles on their faces, and people living happily, and people with an almost quaint lack of guile to them. And Amy did object to killing all the pirates, while Bellows put forward something of a moral guideline that these people seem to take very seriously.

Yeah, Gargantia could well be Gen's latest "emotionally-driven moral idealist". So the Galactic Alliance is perhaps presumed to fill the antithesis role, especially since some of what we know about it seems to fit that role well. I'm inclined to think that Kyubey and Sybil would approve of how the Galactic Alliance is doing things...


The problem with that conflict is that it looks a bit too much like, say, a PETA member going back in time and telling stone age hunter gatherers to protect saber toothed tigers. Gargantians aren't about to become space monster snack, so when they uphold shiny principles, it sounds a bit hollow.

Especially since they were quick enough to resort to violence when they were threatened. Or to bill Ledo for, well, various stuff.

LostSome
2013-04-30, 14:20
I agree with Kirarakim.
At not point I saw the Gargantian as idealists.
Their view is pretty much the same as the Alliance, what is best for survival.

And I can`t think highly of a society without schools or an education system of any kind...
BTW Can Oldham even read those books ?

Triple_R
2013-04-30, 14:28
I definitely do not see that this is the case in this story.

I definitely disagree. Why do you think this episode draws so many contrasts between hyper-pragmatic "If you're not practically useful, you get disposed of" Galactic Alliance and much more caring "Even the bed-ridden get cared for" Gargantia?

This is very much in line with similar contrasts in previous Gen works.


Gen often does explore ideas like this and I think he actually does it at expense of characters at times. The characters become more archetypes or mouthpieces for the ideas and philosophies Gen is trying to get across in the story.

There's nothing inherently wrong with a character being an archetype. Many extremely popular, and even iconic, characters are archetypes.

So I disagree with your criticism of Gen using characters like this. And the fact is that even in real life there are people who lean more towards idealism, and there are people who lean more towards pragmatism. I know some very idealistic people, and I know some very pragmatic people.


In this case though I think we are getting much more of a character piece than a philosophical piece.

There's no rule saying that it can't be both. Consider some of Shakespeare's works.


I don't think this story is so much about exploring how horrible Avalon is, I think it is more about learning to see things from new perspectives, questioning things, and not being afraid to change who we are and what we believe.

Yes, but much of that will come down to Ledo weighing his very logic/pragmatic-based soldier training/conditioning against what he's learning from Gargantia.

The difference here is that the conflict between two philosophically opposed sides gets internalized within one character. Ledo hence is not thesis or antithesis - He will be the one to try to arrive at a good synthesis, I think. This will indeed make him different from Gen's previous anime characters, imo.




Just look at Ledo's discussion with Bebel. Bebel doesn't say OMG how horrible that they kill people like me in your society,

He openly disagrees with it, though. And he offers arguments against their approach. And Bebel did show sympathy towards Ledo - It's clear that Bebel considers Ledo's space society a rough place to be.


no he opens up Ledo's world a bit makes him look at things from a different perspective

Yes, he challenges some of the pragmatic assumptions of Ledo's world.


Bebel explains to Ledo why he does think he is worthy, not why Ledo's thinking is wrong.

But in arguing why he thinks he is worthy, he is by extension showing where the thinking of the Galactic Alliance may be wrong.


I know people didn't like the thing about the pirates...

I didn't have any problems with the thing about the pirates. Many people didn't.


...but I found this episode with Bebel decidedly not preachy. And it's not just Bebel, Amy doesn't judge Ledo either when she hears what his society does. Well Amy thinks Ledo comes from a tough place but she doesn't think horribly of him for what he said.

You can excuse a person for being a product of his society while still disliking that society that he comes from. It's pretty clear to me that Amy and Bebel would not be fans of the Galactic Alliance.


Edit:

The problem with that conflict is that it looks a bit too much like, say, a PETA member going back in time and telling stone age hunter gatherers to protect saber toothed tigers. Gargantians aren't about to become space monster snack, so when they uphold shiny principles, it sounds a bit hollow.

Come on, it's pretty clear that the Gargantians aren't exactly a well-to-do people of plenty. They're collecting rainwater, after all. That's hardly what people with abundant resources/wealth would ever bother doing.

So for them, with their obviously limited resources, to choose to use some of them to clothe, feed, and take care of a bed-ridden boy, does not ring hollow to me at all.


Especially since they were quick enough to resort to violence when they were threatened. Or to bill Ledo for, well, various stuff.

There's a difference between using just enough violence to chase off aggressors, and eliminating aggressors totally.


I agree with Kirarakim.
At not point I saw the Gargantian as idealists.

They appear to place a high value on each individual human life, even the lives of pirates. That clearly is a moral contrast between them and the Galactic Alliance.

They also have the principle of "Give fresh water to the one who catches the fish." So they believe in justly rewarding people who contribute to the common good.

Kirarakim
2013-04-30, 14:51
There's nothing inherently wrong with a character being archetype. Many extremely popular, and even iconic, characters are archetypes.

I am not necessarily saying there is anything wrong with it but I do think Gen's character suffer for this. They never fully grow as characters or feel like real people but remain set as archetypes.

His story strengths are usually not in character development to me. His plot and themes drive the characters. I see this story doing something different where this is much more a character piece.

Now I usually prefer the latter but it is a testament to Gen's writing skills that I still enjoy his work overall even though he usually does it in the former way



So I disagree with your criticism of Gen using characters like this. And the fact is that even in real life there are people who lean more towards idealism, and there are people who lean more towards pragmatism. I know some very idealistic people, and I know some very pragmatic people.


I think we are talking about something different here.

There's no rule saying that it can't be both. Consider some of Shakespeare's works.

Yes but Gen usually falters for me a bit in the character area.

Yes, but much of that will come down to Ledo weighing his very logic/pragmatic-based soldier training/conditioning against what he's learning from Gargantia.

The difference here is that the conflict between two philosophically opposed sides gets internalized within one character. Ledo hence is not thesis or antithesis - He will be the one to try to arrive at a good synthesis, I think. This will indeed make him different from Gen's previous anime characters, imo.

I do see a conflict in Ledo's mind but I feel it is more because he is experiencing something completely different than he knew before.

He said himself I don't question anything, well now he is asked to question everything. If anything to me it is not necessarily important to realize there is a right answer but maybe to realize there is more than one answer.


He openly disagrees with it, though. And he offers arguments against their approach. And Bebel did show sympathy towards Ledo - It's clear that Bebel considers Ledo's space society a rough place to be. Yes, he challenges some of the pragmatic assumptions of Ledo's world. But in arguing why he thinks he is worthy, he is by extension showing where the thinking of the Galactic Alliance may be wrong.


Disagreeing is not the same as preaching. I disagree too but I wouldn't call myself idealistic. :heh:

And considering the situation I think Bebel responded the only way he could. Ledo was telling him my society sees you as useless and he was saying I don't see myself that way. If anything I would say Bebel was being just as pragmatic in his response to Ledo.



I didn't have any problems with the thing about the pirates. Many people didn't.


Well I know there were people who didn't have problems with it but it was a hotly contested topic last week. So I wasn't saying everyone had problems, just that people had issues with it.

Although I don't think they were being all that idealistic there either. I don't think it was just about "not killing" but more about trying to avoid something that could bring further conflict.

You can excuse a person for being a product of his society while still disliking that society that he comes from. It's pretty clear to me that Amy and Bebel would not be fans of the Galactic Alliance.

Maybe not but so far Amy and Bebel haven't been preaching against Avalon.

But who knows what will come later.

Reckoner
2013-04-30, 15:11
I am not necessarily saying there is anything wrong with it but I do think Gen's character suffer for this. They never fully grow as characters or feel like real people but remain set as archetypes.

His story strengths are usually not in character development to me. His plot and themes drive the characters. I see this story doing something different where this is much more a character piece.

Now I usually prefer the latter but it is a testament to Gen's writing skills that I still enjoy his work overall even though he usually does it in the former way

I don't understand how you could possibly describe the characters in Gen works like this.

Psycho-Pass Gino and Akane definitely grew over the course of the series.

Fate/Zero we had multiple characters undergo serious growth (Kotomine, Saber, Waver, etc.).

Madoka's whole cast pretty much had plenty of growth.

Characters are actually one of Gen's biggest strengths as a writer honestly. I think thematic clarity is one of his weaker points. He has lots of interesting ideas in his works, but doesn't necessarily stick to one point completely. Exception being Fate/Zero because he had set themes to work with courtesy of Nasu from Fate/Stay Night.

Anh_Minh
2013-04-30, 15:12
Come on, it's pretty clear that the Gargantians aren't exactly a well-to-do people of plenty. They're collecting rainwater, after all. That's hardly what people with abundant resources/wealth would ever bother doing.

So for them, with their obviously limited resources, to choose to use some of them to clothe, feed, and take care of a bed-ridden boy, does not ring hollow to me at all.
They aren't rich, but my point is, their continued existence isn't threatened. Their "bad guys" are pirates with whom they had some kind of arrangement.

And the point of rainwater is, they don't seem to have spent much thought on how to effectively collect it, so how precious can it really be?


There's a difference between using just enough violence to chase off aggressors, and eliminating aggressors totally.
And they looked just about ready to use the latter on Ledo.



They appear to place a high value on each individual human life, even the lives of pirates. That clearly is a moral contrast between them and the Galactic Alliance.

They also have the principle of "Give fresh water to the one who catches the fish." So they believe in justly rewarding people who contribute to the common good.

Considering Ledo's accomplishment against the bill they send him for one destroyed hangar, I'd argue against the "justly".

Triple_R
2013-04-30, 15:16
I am not necessarily saying there is anything wrong with it but I do think Gen's character suffer for this. They never fully grow as characters or feel like real people but remain set as archetypes.

Well, these are the Gen characters that I listed as fulfilling one of the two conflicting archetype roles - Madoka, Kyubey, Sayaka, Kyouko, Akane, Gino, and Sybil (as a collective).

I'll grant you that Kyubey and Sybil are pretty static, but all the rest showed considerable character growth and development, imo. They pretty much felt like real people to me.

If you disagree, that's fine, but I would be curious to know why. This isn't really the place for it, though, so if you disagree with me on these Gen characters, please bring it up to me in PM. It could be an interesting discussion. :)


His story strengths are usually not in character development to me. His plot and themes drive the characters. I see this story doing something different where this is much more a character piece.

Well, I do think that this anime is more character-driven than Madoka Magica or Psycho-Pass were. So I agree with you there. I do see some of the same philosophical conflicts arising, though.


I do see a conflict in Ledo's mind but I feel it is more because he is experiencing something completely different than he knew before.

I see a possibility here - Perhaps Gen wanted a sort of tabula rasa character that could work well as a character that has to mediate between two opposing sides of a philosophical conflict.

Ledo serves very well as such a character due to his knowledge/experience limitations prior to landing on Earth.

So instead of seeing two conflicting sides arguing/battling it out, we see a person weighing the two sides in his own mind.

I think it could be very interesting to see this play out. So I do see promise here.


He said himself I don't question anything, well now he is asked to question everything.

Exactly. Quite possibly the ideal tabula rasa character. Someone with minimal predisposed biases.


Disagreeing is not the same as preaching. I disagree too but I wouldn't call myself idealistic. :heh:

To be fair, "idealistic" might be too strong of a word, at least in some cases. Let's just say that Gen picks one side that thinks that moral considerations are valid and important considerations, and an opposing side that is pragmatic to the point that moral considerations often/typically don't even factor into things.


And considering the situation I think Bebel responded the only way he could. Ledo was telling him my society sees you as useless and he was saying I don't see myself that way. If anything I would say Bebel was being just as pragmatic in his response to Ledo.

I disagree. Bebel was clearly appealing to emotion ("I need to be there for my sister"), imo.


Although I don't think they were being all that idealistic there either. I don't think it was just about "not killing" but more about trying to avoid something that could bring further conflict.

And why do they want to avoid further conflict? Because they value human lives - Both their own, and that of the pirates.


Maybe not but so far Amy and Bebel haven't been preaching against Avalon.

Why would you feel compelled to say much of anything about some far-off empire that you know next to nothing about and that you may well never come in contact with?

This isn't like, say, a Russian defecting to America circa 1980. This isn't a pressing conflict.

Let's see what the Gargantians have to say if it ever becomes a pressing conflict though...

Kirarakim
2013-04-30, 15:35
Triple R and Reckoner: Saying Gen's characters don't change at all would of course be false but again I feel their change is more in relation to their changes in the archetype roles.

I don't feel Gen's stories are about the character's growth themselves. But yes maybe this should be taken to another discussion.

I think Waver is kind of an exception to this though.

Well, I do think that this anime is more character-driven than Madoka Magica or Psycho-Pass were. So I agree with you there. I do see some of the same philosophical conflicts arising, though.

You might be right

I disagree. Bebel was clearly appealing to emotion ("I need to be there for my sister"), imo.

Well yes but again how else should he have responded. Should he have been like "yep I am useless". I can understand why he doesn't see himself as useless.

Anyways what I am trying to say was the conversation didn't come across as "your way is bad, my way is right"

Bebel didn't get upset at what Ledo said (although I think he was momentarily shocked) he was able to give an answer to Ledo. I don't think I am useless so I am not. I don't think it really matters if Bebel was looking at it from an emotional or practical standpoint. Again to me it was more about opening Ledo's world a bit.



Let's see what the Gargantians have to say if it ever becomes a pressing conflict though...

Well I suppose I could see Avalon becoming a conflict if they directly oppose Gargantia in some way and Ledo has to make a choice that way.

edit: And to explain further what I mean the dystopian elements of Avalon are not necessarily anything we haven't seen many times before. So I think trying to argue against them seems pointless. I don't think that is the theme (practicality vs idealism) is what Gen is necessarily going for here. Ledo might discover what he learned in Avalon is wrong but that's not what I think we as the audience are supposed to get from this story. I think Ledo's experiences are more metaphorical for something else.

Triple_R
2013-04-30, 16:11
Kirarakim: I don't think that Gen is saying that the emotionally-driven moral-considering side is always right. I don't think he's discounting that the logic-driven ruthless pragmatist side has some valid points on their side of the discussion as well. Actually, I think that's why Gen's works lacks thematic clarity, as Reckoner pointed out. I think it's because Gen himself hasn't come to a strong personal stand here. That's probably exactly why this philosophical conflict appears to fascinate him. I think he keeps coming back to it because he views it as a compelling puzzle to grapple with.


That's why Bebel isn't simply saying "The Galactic Alliance is wrong. Wrong I tell you!" Because I think Gen is aiming for something more nuanced here (also because it wouldn't suit Bebel's soft-spoken character, really).

I actually think this could be the work where Gen takes a clear thematic stance on the two conflicting sides. And that's why I really like what I see with Ledo, as I think he could be a Mediator that brings a synthesis out of the thesis and antithesis.

Kirarakim
2013-04-30, 17:32
I just don't think the point of the story is debating between these two systems.

And while Avalon might not be all bad (the people who were fighting with Ledo don't seem bad at all) it's hard to justify killing people because they are not well.

I don't think the story will try to justify the other side as in I don't think that was Gen's point with this episode.

As for Gen's themes even if he doesn't always give an answer I am largely fine with how he presents them but more so in Madoka & Fate Zero than Psychopass.

FlareKnight
2013-04-30, 20:46
Yeah, I can't really go and judge the system with such a limited look at it. If they are fighting for their very survival out there, it's not surprising extreme measures are being taken. Though I do wonder with Bevel what the Alliance will do if they manage to win this conflict. Can they simply transition out of the way they've been living for who knows how long? An extreme threat is a good catalyst for change, but not having that threat might not be as good a catalyst.

Either way it's good for Ledo to get to experience another culture that doesn't have to exist the way the Alliance does.

Hamster
2013-04-30, 22:57
And they looked just about ready to use the latter on Ledo.


Although "getting rid" of him was one of the suggestions, they were probably just exploring all possible options, in the end they just decided to wait and see.

They don't look like the type of people who would use poison in an act of deceit so I wondered how they would actually get rid of him. One possibility is trying to shoo him away or asking him to just leave. Then he'd just join the pirates and they'd end up fucked.

jeroz
2013-05-01, 00:15
Other than the blonde guy who no one is listening to , who else is suggesting getting rid of Ledo?

Eratas123
2013-05-01, 01:49
The Gargantian's being nice and forgiving to the pirates isn't simply blind idealism: Resources are strapped worldwide an NO ONE wants an escalating war that wastes resources. If they did have enough resources? Then yeah, maybe the Gargantian's would attack the pirates. But they don't and their best gear is coated in rust, so I get the feeling neither side wants conflict because they know they'll all end up being boned if they do win in the end because they wasted too much time and resources fighting.

Rackage seems to be an exception, given her "Ax Crazy" nature.

MeoTwister5
2013-05-01, 03:12
One thing's for sure... that kid is wise beyond his years. I'd assume that his heart condition has probably put him in a life-threatening condition before to give him such a worldview.

It also bring a very existential dilemma for Ledo...

Anh_Minh
2013-05-01, 03:19
They'd need to spend a lot less in defense and pirate tributes if the pirates were properly afraid of the authorities instead of the other way around.

Eratas123
2013-05-01, 03:51
They'd need to spend a lot less in defense and pirate tributes if the pirates were properly afraid of the authorities instead of the other way around.

Its not so much tribute, really. If the Gargantian's prove "Look, we have more guns than you. You really wanna try this?", then the pirates back off. Again, Rackage seems to be the exception to this rule since she's so unhinged. She was enjoying the chance to fight.

And besides, they were threatening Gargantia; a single fleet. What would happen if the pirates pissed off all the fleets? Something tells me they wouldn't be much of a threat then.

Anh_Minh
2013-05-01, 04:48
Its not so much tribute, really. If the Gargantian's prove "Look, we have more guns than you. You really wanna try this?", then the pirates back off. Again, Rackage seems to be the exception to this rule since she's so unhinged. She was enjoying the chance to fight.

And besides, they were threatening Gargantia; a single fleet. What would happen if the pirates pissed off all the fleets? Something tells me they wouldn't be much of a threat then.

And yet Bellows explain exactly the opposite - they must not piss off the pirates because the pirates are so scary. The leaders of Gargantia agree with that sentiment and are all too willing to bend over and spread them. The only reason it didn't happen exactly like that is that Ledo didn't get the memo and pissed the pirates off in a way that can't be apologized over.

Rackage isn't the exception. She's the one that unites the pirates to punish the fleets that dare to resist. And till Ledo arrived, it's worked for her.

ReddyRedWolf
2013-05-01, 05:54
And yet Bellows explain exactly the opposite - they must not piss off the pirates because the pirates are so scary. The leaders of Gargantia agree with that sentiment and are all too willing to bend over and spread them. The only reason it didn't happen exactly like that is that Ledo didn't get the memo and pissed the pirates off in a way that can't be apologized over.

Rackage isn't the exception. She's the one that unites the pirates to punish the fleets that dare to resist. And till Ledo arrived, it's worked for her.

The way I see it is how Japanese used to think of war prior to and during WWII.

War to Imperial Japan is another form of negotiation. When Japan won the Russo-Japanese War they believed they were equal to the Western powers.

Japan got an oil embargo from the US because of the occupation of China and their excursiveness. Without oil Japan's industry and war machine would halt.

So Japan thought of this idea to bring the US into a negotiation advantageous to them by initiating a war and at the same time increasing their occupied territory thus be a supreme power in the Asia Pacific.

Showing the US and its allies it is not advantageous to them fight a war with Japan while they themselves are occupied dealing with Germany and Italy.

To put it plainly Japan grossly overestimated their advantage and underestimated the US industrial might. Also they bet wrongly on Germany winning the European theatre.

Even when they were losing they adhered to the Decisive Battle Doctrine that Japan would get a better deal in peace negotiation even after defeat. The mere possibility of unconditional surrender was not acceptable until the US showed the H-bombs.

While not escalating a conflict is smart Gargantians are disillusioned in thinking pirates would be rational like them. Indeed Rackage will be back after the beating she got.

They are so set in their ways that they could not wrap their minds an alliance with Ledo would be very beneficial for them or he has the capability of wiping both them and the pirates or anybody else on Earth.

Katai2013
2013-05-01, 06:09
Sorry 4 the lenguage, i'm new i'm italian XD

The episode 4 was beautiful. The main protagonist of the episode is that Ledo deprived of his life purpose or "take orders" tries to spend time looking for the meaning of Gargantia. In fact Ledo begins to wonder just when no longer un'obbiettivo, purpose, and I really liked it a phrase that is said in this episode that is "live = remain pending orders"

The episode exposes the multiplicity of external and internal Gargantia, we see both the inhabitants, structures, some internal policies and ways of living, but we also and above all the moral within the Gargantia very different from the cold policy of the alliance which comes Ledo. (I will not open parentheses or controversy of who knows what kind, but I'm curious to see if the fleet Gargantia also has some religious belief because if Council does not, really, I am standing on a chair and I'll kill myself of applause XD)

The flute part, gave me tears in his eyes because even in its "trivial issue" (the classic stereotype of a boy soldier who does not know what a family), the episode manages to transport you and tell all in a very discourse with a sparkling direction and in fact I repeat, just started playing the flute came to my shining eyes

Beautiful episode.

PS: I would recommend Ledo read some of Freud's book if they were ;D

http://i40.tinypic.com/3485c89.jpg
Bellows XQ_____________"

Jan-Poo
2013-05-01, 07:47
Rackage seems to be an exception, given her "Ax Crazy" nature.

"Rackage" Didn't want a war either, she only wanted to punish them and make them understand who is the boss again.

The pirates she commands have no interest in seriously damaging the fleet or to keep them focused on a long standing war. That would be for them one less cow to milk.
They need them to remain relatively at peace and focus on salvaging goods, valuable and technology from the bottom of the sea so that they can then reap part of the fruits of their efforts.

Which is why Rackage decided to aim for the commander of the Gargantia. Her objective was clear, she wanted to kill him to set an example so that the next person in command would think twice before messing with her and her pirates.

The commander was well aware of that, and that's why he told the others to leave him alone. After his death Rackage would have simply retreated, perhaps looting a bit as a collateral for the expenses she sustained, but otherwise leaving the Gargantia fully operational.


However the situation has probably changed. Depending on how Rackage reacted to that defeat she might either decide to accept the superiority of Gargantia and steer clear from them or decide that it has become something personal and plot a way to destroy them or make them miserable to get her revenge.


It all comes to this. As long as it is just business the pirates will never try to seriously damage the Gargantia. Make them sworn enemies and a real war will ensue.
Until this point for years the Gargantia always tried to avoid a war at all costs, because it is clear that they would have all been exterminated if that happened.

orpheus2
2013-05-01, 07:50
Looks like Ledo will now have to think what to do now after all the fighting is done. Maybe he should just stay with the Gargantians. After all, they seem to have a more fulfilling life when compared to the Alliance.

Eratas123
2013-05-01, 08:34
I just hope there's not a surprise death scene that pops up.

Cloudedmind
2013-05-01, 11:15
I know the conversations kind of steered away from this but earlier people were commenting on whether it would be cost effective to rescue Ledo. But no one seemed to mention that Ledo isn't there by himself. It may be extremely cost effective for them to retrieve Chamber as we have no idea the time or resources it takes to create something like it. The Alliance may want to retrieve it even if they assume Ledo himself may be dead, and as such Ledo gets rescued by default.

TimeSkip
2013-05-01, 17:16
It may be extremely cost effective for them to retrieve Chamber as we have no idea the time or resources it takes to create something like it. The Alliance may want to retrieve it even if they assume Ledo himself may be dead, and as such Ledo gets rescued by default.

After they've received the distress signals, wouldn't it be more cost effective to just send a command to make Chamber go on autopilot and return by himself?

Anh_Minh
2013-05-01, 17:20
We just don't know enough about their FTL travel to say what would be possible, let alone cost-effective. Heck, we don't even know if Chamber can escape the gravity well.

Still, rescuing Ledo and Chamber is completely insignificant compared to the fact they've discovered an habitable planet.

ReddyRedWolf
2013-05-01, 17:31
We don't even know if they can FTL without a fleet. The wormhole maneuver was very precise and organized. Even the escape.

Hamster
2013-05-02, 03:33
Just one more thought. If the alliance ever discover Earth and decide to colonize, with the vast difference in technology, I don't think they have to do anything against the locals. They'll just land and go about their business while the natives watch on helplessly.

Anh_Minh
2013-05-02, 03:47
The Alliance will probably want to integrate the local human resources. We don't know how fast or how forcefully, though.

Jan-Poo
2013-05-02, 07:30
There are few hints that make me think the Alliance would want to integrate all humans in itself.

The first is that when Ledo recognizes that the Gargantian aren't from the alliance he assumes that they are a "wandering tribe". The term "wandering tribe" seems to imply that those that aren't part of the alliance are considered stragglers. Ledo doesn't seem to recognize that there can be sovereign nations outside the alliance.

The second hint is when Chamber tentatively tries to communicate with the Gargantians the first time. He said: "you are all fellow humans" "Join alliance". It seems that for Chamber it is only logical for all humans to ally in order to fight against the common enemy.
Ridget didn't react well to that... :heh:

Triple_R
2013-05-02, 11:48
One thing that I think might be getting discounted on this thread is the possibility that the wormhole threw Ledo not just through space, but also through time.

If so, then locating Ledo might be that much harder (if not impossible) for the Galactic Alliance.

Jan-Poo
2013-05-02, 12:32
That was actually discussed in other threads.
So far there isn't something that would make it necessary to think that a time leap occurred, but of course it can't be excluded either.
It's just a bit meh, in my opinion.

The real debate here is whether there is something that prevents the alliance from contacting Ledo or if they are simply ignoring him.

A time travel would fall on the first hypothesis, especially if Ledo traveled back to a time where the alliance didn't exist yet or didn't developed that particular communication system yet. Or in a future where the alliance was wiped out.

Triple_R
2013-05-02, 12:36
That was actually discussed in other threads.
So far there isn't something that would make it necessary to think that a time leap occurred, but of course it can't be excluded either.
It's just a bit meh, in my opinion.

Ledo creating a butterfly effect could be interesting, but I will say I hope we see more of the Galactic Alliance before its all said and done.

ReddyRedWolf
2013-05-02, 18:13
Well I'll be damned... It is the kid in this episode.

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c111/ReddyRedWolf/1367511727055_zps9265bb38.jpg (http://s26.photobucket.com/user/ReddyRedWolf/media/1367511727055_zps9265bb38.jpg.html)

Hamster
2013-05-03, 11:10
They look pretty happy for genetically engineered cannon fodder who know nothing but war.

Raviel
2013-05-03, 13:09
From what little we've been shown, it looks like the Alliance doesn't really prevent them from acting friendly towards each other so long as they manage to do their jobs efficiently.

I guess the Alliance also takes morale into account when looking at the efficiency of their army, in a way you could say "happy troops are effective troops".

P.S. Is it just me or is Ledo's Machine Caliber (the mech Chamber is installed in) painted differently from the others?

mikeomni
2013-05-03, 13:36
It's probably a training unit, not Chamber. Are they coming out with prequel/supplementary books?

LostSome
2013-05-03, 13:41
The little boy could play music and even make a flute(I don`t know how to do that) and, by the look of things, they at least tried to cure him.
I`m thinking Ledo is more pragmatic than most.

Funkatron
2013-05-03, 16:14
From what little we've been shown, it looks like the Alliance doesn't really prevent them from acting friendly towards each other so long as they manage to do their jobs efficiently.

I guess the Alliance also takes morale into account when looking at the efficiency of their army, in a way you could say "happy troops are effective troops".

P.S. Is it just me or is Ledo's Machine Caliber (the mech Chamber is installed in) painted differently from the others?

Which begs the question: when they did dispose of that one sick kid, did Ledo wipe out the memory or did the Alliance so that the disposal didn't hinder Ledo's performance?

cyth
2013-05-03, 17:38
At first I thought the kid was actually Ledo who was being separated from his parent and sent to space for training. :heh:

SQA
2013-05-04, 01:28
One thing that I think might be getting discounted on this thread is the possibility that the wormhole threw Ledo not just through space, but also through time.

If so, then locating Ledo might be that much harder (if not impossible) for the Galactic Alliance.

Another thing to keep in mind: The opening of ep 1 had some nice Gunbuster and Starship Trooper homages. Gunbuster should be best regarded for the attempt to keep relativity with FTL travel. Ledo could be hundreds of years removed from when he fought the battle.

Note: if it was several thousand years, then it would explain Chamber's location problem. 1-2 clear nights should give Chamber enough to get a pretty solid location, unless it's been thousands of years and the stars have, as a result, shifted from what his astronomical charts would say. Or Chambers' optical sensors for stars simply isn't sensitive enough inside an atmosphere to figure out star color values.

Raviel
2013-05-04, 09:59
Which begs the question: when they did dispose of that one sick kid, did Ledo wipe out the memory or did the Alliance so that the disposal didn't hinder Ledo's performance?

I wouldn't put it above the Alliance to periodically wipe "unecessary" thoughts and memories from the minds of their soldiers just to keep them in top mental shape.

They probably want just the right amount of individuality in their troops to allow them to develop into skilled fighters and not just organic robots that can't think outside the box (i.e. Ledo and his squadron leader's decision to hold off the Hideauze so that most of their unit could escape).

On a side note, notice how that kid is wearing a mask in the picture? Assuming it is him, I think we can say that the Alliance does what it can to keep valuable combat/support personnel active, if they begin to outlive their usefulness only then would they consider disposal.

jeroz
2013-05-05, 06:53
Just realised something.

It won't surprise me if the future antagonists uses rope to fight against Chamber, like how he was binded by his own rotational gravity field in this episode

Funkatron
2013-05-05, 08:40
Just realised something.

It won't surprise me if the future antagonists uses rope to fight against Chamber, like how he was binded by his own rotational gravity field in this episode
He still has antigravity, so he'll shrug it off like he did Rackage and her underlings. They'd have to really anchor the rope/chain/binding in order for that to work

Anh_Minh
2013-05-05, 08:50
He might also get free relatively easily if he was willing to break everything around him.

LKK
2013-05-05, 11:25
He might also get free relatively easily if he was willing to break everything around him.
I assumed that's why he remained bound. He was still following Ledo's instructions to not hurt the people or destroy the ships. I can't imagine ropes actually being much of a hindrance to Chamber.

Gravitas Free Zone
2013-05-05, 12:09
Considering the first episode fight sequence, it appears that the Machine Caliber has beam emitters in all sorts of places, so cutting free should not be a big problem either.

Guido
2013-07-07, 16:09
Before leaving my final thoughts for this series, I'm rewatching episodes which I miss to deliver my review about them back after they aired.

Fourth episode deals with the themes of free thought and flexibility. The idea that a person's existence is not assigned but can be beneficial to others that want to have company or a friend that will listen to them.

I cannot be biased against the GA, since it's most likely they didn't have any choice on the matter to evolve their civilization in order survive against the Hideauze.

On the other hand, the people on Earth are living and let live, and it is what Bebel gave to Ledo his own interpretation to the meaning of "standing by".

One thing for sure is that I likeD how the staff executed with natural spontaneity both Ledo and Chamber's lack of credibility, upon observing how much Earthling human's society differs drastically from the GA.