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monir
2013-05-10, 23:14
Welcome to the discussion thread for Suisei no Gargantia, Episode 6.

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MisaoFan
2013-05-12, 08:35
Today's episode involve on how our mysterious soldier Ledo participates in fun activities, something that he's never seen before. The girls practice their own ethnic dance that was reminiscient of an Arabic/samba hybrid look. Ledo seemed endangered by the squid meal, and when he's capturing fishs with Chamber, something horrible happened when Hideauze, the extraterrestrial monsters from space, attack Earth, and it looks like they really slowly hit the fan with the plot. I'm sure the next episode will probably explain more.

bastek66
2013-05-12, 08:37
I was healed
http://i.imgur.com/17zSj5Jl.jpg (http://imgur.com/17zSj5J)
http://i.imgur.com/ojZuhpq.gif (http://imgur.com/ojZuhpq)http://i.imgur.com/Jws0pfL.gif (http://imgur.com/Jws0pfL)

MeoTwister5
2013-05-12, 08:48
I imagine some people might be turned off by apparent fanservice again.

But hey, if one thinks that belly dancing is more fanservice than sociocultural then...

bastek66
2013-05-12, 08:49
Better than Magi's
http://i.minus.com/i8kHlYPa5XgIf.gif

whitecloud
2013-05-12, 09:56
Ok....now the question is..since the hideauze has begin attack...WHO is gonna die ? In what manner? Who gonna fall into despair first...muahahaha

MUAHAHAHAHAHA
2013-05-12, 09:58
I was healed
http://i.imgur.com/17zSj5Jl.jpg (http://imgur.com/17zSj5J)
http://i.imgur.com/ojZuhpq.gif (http://imgur.com/ojZuhpq)http://i.imgur.com/Jws0pfL.gif (http://imgur.com/Jws0pfL)


You know....there's going to be plenty of gifs made from this episode, if you know what I mean :heh:

RainbowMagnet
2013-05-12, 10:07
Ok....now the question is..since the hideauze has begin attack...WHO is gonna die ? In what manner? Who gonna fall into despair first...muahahaha

Are we even sure that thing at the end was a hideauze? It could be a fake-out, Chamber was only 99.97% sure after all.

Kirarakim
2013-05-12, 10:20
I imagine some people might be turned off by apparent fanservice again.

But hey, if one thinks that belly dancing is more fanservice than sociocultural then...

Just by looking at the Gifs its way more than apparent.

Hopefully it is actually a well written episode this time.

bastek66
2013-05-12, 10:28
http://i.imgur.com/b4ptZLUl.jpg (http://imgur.com/b4ptZLU)
Solo dance for Ledo scene
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4jBtYg34O8

Cirno
2013-05-12, 10:39
コレハセツクス?

Oh wow, it took 6 episodes for Ledo to become sexually attracted to Amy.

http://i.imgur.com/gjwmsVm.jpg

Are we even sure that thing at the end was a hideauze? It could be a fake-out, Chamber was only 99.97% sure after all.

Yeah, I doubt it's a hideauze. Maybe it's just a mutated squid.

RainbowMagnet
2013-05-12, 10:42
Just by looking at the Gifs its way more than apparent.

Hopefully it is actually a well written episode this time.

If it makes you feel any better, the dancing only makes up about 2 minutes of the total airtime. And the dancing bit with Amy in the end was actually handled really well and classy :)

Oh and no tranny jokes, so this episode is already better than last weeks.

Kirarakim
2013-05-12, 10:53
If it makes you feel any better, the dancing only makes up about 2 minutes of the total airtime. And the dancing bit with Amy in the end was actually handled really well and classy :)

Oh and no tranny jokes, so this episode is already better than last weeks.

I watched the Amy dance scene that someone posted. You are right it was well done.

If the other more fanservicey scene is only 2 mins I guess I can live.

mikeomni
2013-05-12, 10:56
Man, those last two minutes made my heart jump, especially when Ledo pushed Bellow's yunboro out of the way. Way to ramp up the tension, now we have to wait another week.

Obelisk ze Tormentor
2013-05-12, 11:10
So it seems that Urobuchi is at it again this episode, even in a limited capacity :heh:.

Also, Amys classy belly dancing reminds me of the similar belly dancing scene in From Russia with Love.

DuelGundam2099
2013-05-12, 11:14
You're thinking Live and Let Die.

Marina2
2013-05-12, 11:22
Phenomenon that Ledo often sees on Earth at night

http://i.imgur.com/1ZxyB7y.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/E4PRQQD.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/1pTM6Sb.jpg


and a creature that appear at the end...


http://i.imgur.com/HEH2QCM.jpg

See the connection??

If that thing is really a hideauze, its origin may not be so far away....

Obelisk ze Tormentor
2013-05-12, 11:39
You're thinking Live and Let Die.Nope. The belly dancer in From Russia with Love is more impressive imo, and Amy’s belly dancing reminds me of that. That said, have you actually watched From Russia with Love?

Iby
2013-05-12, 12:17
There's one more Nitro+ writer involved in the project who hasn't written a script yet. Probably soon. He's the one writing the "Boy and Giant" spin off novel for Gargantia. Apparently set during Ledo's days in the military.

http://gargantia.jp/#product_23

Yep it's his time already :heh:
Also end card by Tsuji Santa!

Gravitas Free Zone
2013-05-12, 12:50
Perhaps there might be a connection between the leftover nanomachines in Earth's ocean and the odd mollusks they've got, but even if Chamber says the giant squid-thing at the end is a Hideauze, it still could just be a weird giant squid. Ledo's paranoid about ika and tako is bad enough already.

Having the dancing mixed in with the Ledo/Pinion/Bellows discussion made the dancing fall into the gratuitious fanservice category (Cultural significance? Suggestive dancing!), but the part at the end wasn't too bad... probably because it was less obviously suggestive dancing. And there wasn't a roomful of cheering guys.

No mentions from Chamber about any power consumption concerns, despite some moderate force field usage, and now we know that the Machine Caliber has no problem operating underwater.

ookamigirl
2013-05-12, 12:50
Ledo was so funny with his inability to use money.
Their festival was anything but typical.
Looks like he finally managed to make himself useful.
Latest episodes are more everyday stuff, nice and relaxing.
Wonder if we'll get to see some real action and fighting soon.

hai_san
2013-05-12, 12:52
ha and ppl were saying last ep was too much fanservice... this ep half of the time we are seeing the girls doing table dance... and the bomb comes at the end... with "Hideauze" mutant octopus?

Mangaka-chan
2013-05-12, 13:00
Bellows mentioned that there's something called a whalesquid, so that might be what Ledo and Chambers are thinking is a Hideaze. As to if this bioluminescent squid looking inch creature has any direct connection to the aliens Ledo was fighting is uncertain at the moment. For all we know it might be a red herring.

As for the episode itself, while I normally don't care for fan service, Amy's belling dance was animated very well. But for a festival I was disappointed they didn't show Ledo and Amy winning/buying the little crab toy and candies that they got. I thought that would've been fun to see, and i was kind of confused when they cut directly from the belly dancing/restaurant scene to after the festival. I'm also not sure what is the purpose of the scene where Ledo detects a threat while he was with Amy and grabs her to protect her. Is that suppose to reinforce that he's still very much in a soldier mind set or is it suppose to help reinforce the Ledo/Amy pairing?

Marina2
2013-05-12, 13:05
I'm also not sure what is the purpose of the scene where Ledo detects a threat while he was with Amy and grabs her to protect her. Is that suppose to reinforce that he's still very much in a soldier mind set or is it suppose to help reinforce the Ledo/Amy pairing?

IMO, I think that scene is a bit strange. Ledo has seen that phenomenon before in ep.2. Why would he still think it is a sign something danger??

ApathyEcstasy
2013-05-12, 13:06
I suspect that it may be the evolutionary ancestor of Hideauze.

Midonin
2013-05-12, 13:06
Gargantia 06 - It Reminds Me of an Old Joke

I really enjoyed the dance sequence. I was encouraged to. It's the kind of thing that would encourage a lot of fan art, and I see that as nothing but a good thing. A lot of fan art means a healthy and active fan community. If the series continues to have more episodes like this, I'll be just fine with it. As I said, Gargantia never really struck me as a mecha series, and episodes like this only further reinforce that. I get that Ledo's skills would inevitably be in something robot related, but I'd imagine it's like trying to use a very old version of Windows after getting used to an iPod.

And the start of the episode made me think of this classic exchange.

"Aww, $20? I wanted a peanut!"
"$20 can buy many peanuts."
"Explain how."
"Money can be exchanged for goods and services."
"WOOHOO!"

EroKing
2013-05-12, 13:07
10/10 for some quality hip shaking :p

DuelGundam2099
2013-05-12, 13:09
That said, have you actually watched From Russia with Love?
I've seen all the Bond movies. Come to think of it I was thinking of The Man With The Golden Gun since a belly dancer hid a bullet by disguising it as a belly ring.

I'm also not looking forward to this episode since it sounds like fan service junk like the last episode, but the squid is tempting so it isn't like I can say no.

CJ_Walker
2013-05-12, 13:22
All I gotta say about this ep is : HOLY SHIT I WAS RIGHT!

I mentioned in a previous episode that the swirling galaxy things were made by humans of the past! (of course people here said I was wrong) but chamber said it in the first 5minutes of the ep!


#Vindicated

edit: and yes there was fanservice. but well #whatcanyoudo?

Japan has to sell its shows somehow.

Haak
2013-05-12, 13:27
So I'm guessing Yamauchi directed this episode or something what with all those close ups? :heh:

And i honestly couldn't give a rat's ass about Ledo's past. He is one freaking lucky guy...

Dop
2013-05-12, 13:27
I suspect the creature at the end is an aforementioned 'Whalesquid' (if you weren't so distracted by the dancing you missed that bit), but I also suspect that the Hideauze may be descendants of sea life taken into space by early settlers, and that they and the whalesquid are genetically similar enough to trigger Chamber's detector.

Also I thought Ledo's reaction to the octopus did have an element of PTSD about it.

andyjay729
2013-05-12, 13:29
Much better than last week, I think. The fanservice was, umm, nicely erotic, but in a way that you didn't feel like you needed a shower afterwards. And we're starting to get back into unlocking some of the mysteries of this world.

It was also very sweet how Ledo's possible attraction to Amy was awakening. (Though, heh, if they do get paired up in this show, I hope his attraction to her is more than just physical.) And I would like to see some internal monologue on her thoughts too.

And of course, there was the big reveal at the end, so now I absolutely can't wait for next week.

SeijiSensei
2013-05-12, 13:45
And there wasn't a roomful of cheering guys.

Including one who appeared to be doing pelvic thrusts with an erect penis.

OK, I'm going to mention this just once. I have not liked Amy's character model from the beginning. She and Ledo are supposed to both be sixteen, but he looks 24, and she looks 12. Her behavior and speech often seem a bit juvenile as well. As for Ledo, though he looks much older than 16, his virginity and (dissolving) asexuality also place convenient limits on his maturity.

So I find scenes where three supposedly sixteen-year-old girls dance provocatively in front of a bunch of inebriated older men disturbing. Drawing the girls to look young for their ages makes it even worse. I figured that after the bikini episode we would leave the fanservice behind and return to the main story this week. I was disappointed to say the least.

Whenever I see Ledo with Bellows, as in this episode, they always seem a more likely pairing than Ledo and Amy. Bellows also seems attracted to Ledo despite their supposed difference in ages. I don't think it's simply harem-building; Amy is the obvious love interest. However I do think Bellows's interest in Ledo includes more than just becoming salvage partners.

Kirarakim
2013-05-12, 13:48
This episode was much better than last week. I also actually didn't mind the fanservice as much (probably because it wasn't accompanied by girls discussing their body weight).

As far as animation, Amy's dance certainly beats the Magi one (although that's not saying much).

This episode also makes last week's swimsuit escapades even more pointless. Last week we had Ledo trying to find work unsuccessfully and this week he is able to get a job fishing and then get recruited to salvaging. Well if life's problems could only be solved that easily.

So yeah the series did practically nothing meaningful with Ledo trying to get a job. Don't get me wrong I actually enjoyed seeing the Gargantians at work and Ledo and Chamber's failed attempt to fish with their war experience (the episode also showed that Ledo and Chamber work much better as a pair) but I still feel the series could have done so much more with this theme of Ledo trying to find a place in this world and it just feels like a missed opportunity.

As for the squid being Hideauze, well looking at the preview I highly doubt it. However I am game with the theory that the aliens might have evolved from the squid.


Japan has to sell its shows somehow.

Pretty sad state of affairs that a well written show can't you know sell itself.


Bellows's interest in Ledo includes more than just becoming salvage partners.

Personally I see far more chemistry with Bellows and Pinion.

Bellows seems like an older sister to Ledo. I don't really see anything else in their relationship.

Crazy'O
2013-05-12, 13:57
Great episode, this show has so much potential and room to grow, I can't wait for the next episode.

Also, all the talk about fanservice. For me it's a reason I picked up anime 14 years ago, I really do not understand how anyone can be surprised anymore by it unless you started watching anime recently.

kukuru
2013-05-12, 14:11
Including one who appeared to be doing pelvic thrusts with an erect penis.

OK, I'm going to mention this just once. I have not liked Amy's character model from the beginning. She and Ledo are supposed to both be sixteen, but he looks 24, and she looks 12. Her behavior and speech often seem a bit juvenile as well. As for Ledo, though he looks much older than 16, his virginity and (dissolving) asexuality also place convenient limits on his maturity.

So I find scenes where three supposedly sixteen-year-old girls dance provocatively in front of a bunch of inebriated older men disturbing. Drawing the girls to look young for their ages makes it even worse. I figured that after the bikini episode we would leave the fanservice behind and return to the main story this week. I was disappointed to say the least.


Learn history if anything what you're saying right now is a the definition of being abnormal.

Just because our society is overly prudish due to our puratan background and skewed conservative propaganda doesn't make a cultural relic any less effective because its fan service.

Amiration and propogation of youth, beauty and vaitality, is very common and natural in human culture. The dancing of beautiful scanty clad young girls in a tavern/festival of gruff sweaty men is the cliche definition of a cultural symbol around the world, especially in mining towns(which is what this story closely tries to draw parallels from).

12-18 is probably overly accurate age in any culture. That is the age when they are no longer kids but not marriable by most standards. Thus the epitome of youth and valtaility. It is only in the last 50 years when we actually shifted past 20 for that stuff which you now deemed normal.

Kirarakim
2013-05-12, 14:11
Also, all the talk about fanservice. For me it's a reason I picked up anime 14 years ago, I really do not understand how anyone can be surprised anymore by it unless you started watching anime recently.

No one is surprised by fan service. But there is plenty of anime without it (in the past and today). And while the girls costumes have always been revealing the fanservice started to get amped up with episode 3 and the introduction of the pirate queen.

Is fanservice the worst thing ever, well no. But no I don't see why it is needed.

To me it seems like the message is we have this great story, great setting, great characters but we know you guys aren't going to buy it unless we include some T&A. That is certainly the message it sends.


Just because our society is overly prudish due to our puratan background and skewed conservative propaganda doesn't make a cultural relic any less effective because its fan service.


Oh please, don't give me that prude argument.

Japanese Culture does not=Otaku Culture either.

joshuafaramir
2013-05-12, 14:13
You know it's been proven that Octopus are damn smart. Anyhow, it could be a solo alien that accidentally fell over there as well with Chamber.

Of course Chamber/Gundam can operate underwater. How the hell can it operate in space if it's not sealed shut and airtight?

Haruyasha
2013-05-12, 14:14
99.7% probability.. Implying .3% they're wrong.

Although, tbh... I kinda wish it is the Hideauze.. this series is dragging out way too long.

joshuafaramir
2013-05-12, 14:18
No one is surprised by fan service. But there is plenty of anime without it (in the past and today). And while the girls costumes have always been revealing the fanservice started to get amped up with episode 3 and the introduction of the pirate queen.

Is fanservice the worst thing ever, well no. But no I don't see why it is needed.

To me it seems like the message is we have this great story, great setting, great characters but we know you guys aren't going to buy it unless we include some T&A. That is certainly the message it sends.




Oh please, don't give me that prude argument.

Japanese Culture does not=Otaku Culture either.




As for the culture festival, it's not really a BIG DEAL if you consider the environment they live in. Those girls/women/people are scantily clad at all times. They must be used to seeing it by now. Jeeze, don't bring your own cultural perception and "criticizing" the show if haven't looked and considered the whole picture.

Shadow5YA
2013-05-12, 14:21
Including one who appeared to be doing pelvic thrusts with an erect penis.

OK, I'm going to mention this just once. I have not liked Amy's character model from the beginning. She and Ledo are supposed to both be sixteen, but he looks 24, and she looks 12. Her behavior and speech often seem a bit juvenile as well. As for Ledo, though he looks much older than 16, his virginity and (dissolving) asexuality also place convenient limits on his maturity.

So I find scenes where three supposedly sixteen-year-old girls dance provocatively in front of a bunch of inebriated older men disturbing. Drawing the girls to look young for their ages makes it even worse. I figured that after the bikini episode we would leave the fanservice behind and return to the main story this week. I was disappointed to say the least.


You must have some developed 12-year-olds in your area if they have the same curves as Amy's design...

Haruyasha
2013-05-12, 14:22
Japanese Culture does not=Otaku Culture either.

Shingeki no Kyojin implies that the ugly people of society = otaku.

Gravitas Free Zone
2013-05-12, 14:24
Of course Chamber/Gundam can operate underwater. How the hell can it operate in space if it's not sealed shut and airtight?

Water pressure is entirely different from vacuum. Now, Chamber was pulled out of the ocean after it fell to Earth, and is obviously strong enough to withstand some grabbing and crunching from the Hideauze, but there had been questions raised during the pirate battle about whether Lukkage's plan to drag it underwater would work, whether the antigravity ball would work underwater, etc. They've now shown it...

joshuafaramir
2013-05-12, 14:26
Water pressure is entirely different from vacuum. Now, Chamber was pulled out of the ocean after it fell to Earth, and is obviously strong enough to withstand some grabbing and crunching from the Hideauze, but there had been questions raised during the pirate battle about whether Lukkage's plan to drag it underwater would work, whether the antigravity ball would work underwater, etc. They've now shown it...

Look bob, if that ROBOT CAN WITHSTAND THE G-FORCES ON A BLACK HOLE/Worm Hole, how the hell can it NOT withstand some measly underwater pressure?

Kirarakim
2013-05-12, 14:26
As for the culture festival, it's not really a BIG DEAL if you consider the environment they live in. Those girls/women/people are scantily clad at all times. They must be used to seeing it by now. Jeeze, don't bring your own cultural perception and "criticizing" the show if haven't looked and considered the whole picture.

Okay once again there is nothing cultural about it. It is fricking fanservice.

I said I don't mind the fanservice in this episode, I tolerate it but I am so tired of people making stupid excuses for it.

It is not part of their culture. It's meant to appeal to the target audience of the series. That is all.

Please do not give me the argument that they are scantily clad because they live near water. It's only the women who are dressed like that. I wonder why.

We don't need a swim suit episode and belly dancing episode to show us their culture. And for the record I have seen real belly dancing performers many times.

Shingeki no Kyojin implies that the ugly people of society = otaku.

Sorry I am not sure I understand this statement. I also wasn't trying to imply that all Otaku series automatically have fanservice (because that is not true).

What I was trying to say that the amount of fanservice we do see in many anime series is not necessarily representative of Japanese culture as a whole.

And on another note fanservice is not exclusively a Japanese anime thing either.

edit: Although Titans does prove that a series can exist without fanservice and still sell just fine.

ApathyEcstasy
2013-05-12, 14:26
I was going to give a huge rant about moral/cultural relativism, but I think I'll just say this: someone needs to get off his high horse.

As for whether sexism/sexualization is related to culture or not. If you define culture as a collection of beliefs, values, and norms, then sexism/sexualization such as fan service is, indeed, a cultural feature. If you want to split hairs, you can call it a sub-cultural feature.

Product marketing is also directly connected to culture.

joshuafaramir
2013-05-12, 14:28
Okay once again there is nothing cultural about it. It is fricking fanservice.

I said I don't mind the fanservice in this episode, I tolerate it but I am so tired of people making stupid excuses for it.

It is not part of their culture. It's meant to appeal to the target audience of the series. That is all.

Please do not give me the argument that they are scantily clad because they live near water. It's only the women who are dressed like that. I wonder why.

We don't need a swim suit episode and belly dancing episode to show us their culture. And for the record I have seen real belly dancing performers many times.

How the hell do you know it's NOT PART OF THEIR CULTURE boy?

Haruyasha
2013-05-12, 14:29
It is not part of their culture. It's meant to appeal to the target audience of the series. That is all.

Please do not give me the argument that they are scantily clad because they live near water. It's only the women who are dressed like that. I wonder why.

And you're talking as if you know anything about (or live in) this fictional culture.

Just let it go, really. Nobody is forcing you to watch this series if the lack of clothing bothers you. (Or be here if the discussion of said fanservice troubles you.) Let people think what they want.

Midonin
2013-05-12, 14:30
It's meant to appeal to the target audience of the series. That is all.
As one of those people, it's working. The past two episodes have been my favorite in the series, for their general atmosphere and, yes, their fanservice. The less "serious" something is, the more I can get invested in it, though I realize that hardly applies to everyone.

We don't need a swim suit episode and belly dancing episode to show us their culture.
If I may use a hopefully not too awkward real world analogy, Akiba is as much a part of Japan's culture as the old Edo castles. Culture has its entertainment that's designed solely to entertain. There's a whole broad scope of things that represent "culture", and fanservice is equally important in that.

KrimzonStriker
2013-05-12, 14:31
I was going to give a huge rant about moral/cultural relativism, but I think I'll just say this: someone needs to get over his high horse.

As for whether sexism/sexualization is related to culture or not. If you define culture as a collection of beliefs, values, and norms, then sexism/sexualization such as fan service is, indeed, a cultural feature. If you want to split hairs, you can call it a sub-cultural feature.

Product marketing is also directly connected to culture.

Seconded, you see plenty worst in real-life cultures as well. I didn't think any different of the dance then say Carnival in Brazil. Is it an excuse for fan-service? Sure, but that doesn't mean it's not relevant or doesn't work for the series. If we can tolerate and even appreciate it in real-life, then why not in anime?

GDB
2013-05-12, 14:33
My only problem with the belly dancing is that it's the same three girls we've seen the entire series. What, are they the only girls under 25 years old in the entire floating city?

ApathyEcstasy
2013-05-12, 14:34
I get the feeling that Kirarakim has a very narrow and selective view of what does and doesn't qualify as culture. Unfortunately for him, the actual definition of culture is extraordinarily broad. Whether he likes it or not, seedy aspects of entertainment also qualify as culture. This includes drug use, prostitution, and yes, anime fan service.

Haruyasha
2013-05-12, 14:34
My only problem with the belly dancing is that it's the same three girls we've seen the entire series. What, are they the only girls under 25 years old in the entire floating city?

They're marking their territory.. Who knows.. Maybe they're the ones who are making sure that Redo only sees them? :)

Enjou
2013-05-12, 14:35
I'm in agreement with those that suggested the creature at the end is one of the whalesquids that was mentioned. Whether it's related to the Hideauze are it's evolutionary cousin or not, I'm not so sure it is - that would be too much of a coincidence that both the known spacefaring species are from the same planet. More likely it would be a case of convergent evolution.

DuelGundam2099
2013-05-12, 14:36
I just watched the episode, if not for the Hideaouze and Ledo freaking out from a cooked octopus it would have been just as lackluster as the last episode. The fan service made me want to cringe. On that note, where are you guys getting the idea Ledo's getting aroused? At best he's just starring off into space.

Haruyasha
2013-05-12, 14:39
On that note, where are you guys getting the idea Ledo's getting aroused? At best he's just starring off into space.

He's hypnotized by her dance, and goes as far as to ask her to dance for him (in private). That's not just starring off into space. :p

Although I really don't see the big deal if he gets sexually aroused.. Remember his character flaws when Chamber told him his reaction to living on Avalon was lackluster and not as expected. Redo has no interest in interacting with humans.. thus living on Earth is exactly what he needs.

SeijiSensei
2013-05-12, 14:40
You must have some developed 12-year-olds in your area if they have the same curves as Amy's design...

I raised a daughter and knew a number of girls in the 11-13 range who had "developed". It's pretty common in modern America. The average age at menarche is around 12.5.

My reaction to Amy has more to do with her facial design than her body. Her facial appearance is quite juvenile for someone who is supposed to be sixteen.

where are you guys getting the idea Ledo's getting aroused? At best he's just starring off into space.

I thought that aspect of the scene in the bar was quite poorly directed. Was Ledo looking at the stage? It seemed like he was looking in an entirely different direction throughout, either in horror at the "Hideauze" on his plate, or toward the waitress, or toward his potential employers. If he was looking at the girls, it wasn't made obvious.

Entravity
2013-05-12, 14:41
Looks to be getting more serious by the end part. Otherwise, not that good, but it does have some developments albeit not that much.

BUT DEM HIPS.

Blaat
2013-05-12, 14:41
I'm getting worried here at the rate this show is going doesn't bode well. I mean people might run out of tissue paper or cleaning solutions to keep the keyboard sticky free. With the current economic situation the small costs always add up. I hope the situation is going well for you guys.
Whenever I see Ledo with Bellows, as in this episode, they always seem a more likely pairing than Ledo and Amy.In the previous episodes I thought, like you, that Bellows (along with all the other recurring female characters) had an interest in Ledo but in this episode I didn't see any of it. In this one I thought Bellows interest was with Pinion not with Ledo.
Also, all the talk about fanservice. For me it's a reason I picked up anime 14 years ago, I really do not understand how anyone can be surprised anymore by it unless you started watching anime recently.After all my years of watching anime I've noticed that the better quality the anime the less fanservice it tends to have (having said that the opposite isn't necessarily true e.g. a show with no fanservice doesn't mean it's of high quality).
Now it could be observational bias on my case, or maybe the fanservice is handled so much better that it feels like a genuine part of the show instead of something to increase the sell numbers. Obviously my opinion is in the minority and I'll accept that but that won't prevent me from voicing my complaints unnecessary fanservice we see in this show.

Kirarakim
2013-05-12, 14:44
I get the feeling that Kirarakim has a very narrow and selective view of what does and doesn't qualify as culture. Unfortunately for him, the actual definition of culture is extraordinarily broad. Whether he likes it or not, seedy aspects of entertainment also qualify as culture. This includes drug use, prostitution, and yes, anime fan service.

I don't have a narrow view of anything. I am saying it isn't meant to represent "culture" it is meant to be "fanservice".

Trying to say it is meant to be culture comes off as extremely stupid. And you can easily show "belly dancing" without it being objectifying.

Heck even in this episode there is a sharp contrast between Amy's dance and the dance at the beginning.

And I am not a he!

Haruyasha
2013-05-12, 14:46
I thought that aspect of the scene in the bar was quite poorly directed. Was Ledo looking at the stage? It seemed like he was looking in an entirely different direction throughout, either in horror at the "Hideauze" on his plate, or toward the waitress, or toward his potential employers. If he was looking at the girls, it wasn't made obvious.

Really? Must be a person to person case.. I personally had the idea right from the start that he was staring at Aimi..

DuelGundam2099
2013-05-12, 14:47
Was Ledo looking at the stage?
As someone who is asexual I can tell you that he most likely was not and is more likely he simply tried ignoring the two blabber mouths in front of him. Can't say I blame him, I tend to do that too when annoying people jabber on about nothing.

ApathyEcstasy
2013-05-12, 14:47
I raised a daughter and knew a number of girls in the 11-13 range who had "developed". It's pretty common in modern America. The average age at menarche is around 12.5.

My reaction to Amy has more to do with her facial design than her body. Her facial appearance is quite juvenile for someone who is supposed to be sixteen.

Baby faces are relatively more common among Asians. Heck, I'm 26 but look 21. And when I was 21 I looked 17. If anything, the facial vs actual age gap is actually increasing with time, as time seems to be passing disproportionately more quickly than my body is capable of aging. If my parents are anything to go by, this effect won't reach equilibrium itself until I'm in my mid 40s, at which point I will just begin to look my age. I can still recall my father looking 30 when he was 38, and my mother looking 27 when she was 34.

Tenzen12
2013-05-12, 14:48
This show is weird. Why they do close-ups of some kids when there is Bellows in same room? That just doesn't make any sense:twitch:!

But seriously even though I weren't originaly sure if I should ship, I can't help but find Ledo x Amy weird, she realy isn't much more than kid andI think he should be with someone more mature. If that someone happen to be Ceirtain Redhead I guess I wouldn't particulary mind (at least she would get more screentime).

joshuafaramir
2013-05-12, 14:48
My only problem with the belly dancing is that it's the same three girls we've seen the entire series. What, are they the only girls under 25 years old in the entire floating city?

THEY WANT LEDO'S SEED. That's why they're trying to entice him with the girls who he's comfortable with and already know. Durr man :D

ApathyEcstasy
2013-05-12, 14:49
I don't have a narrow view of anything. I am saying it isn't meant to represent "culture" it is meant to be "fanservice".

Trying to say it is meant to be culture comes off as extremely stupid. And you can easily show "belly dancing" without it being objectifying.

Heck even in this episode there is a sharp contrast between Amy's dance and the dance at the beginning.

And I am not a he!

At no point did I ever say that the fan service is "meant" to represent culture. I am making the point that fan service IS a cultural feature, regardless of whether it is meant to be or not. Also, I have nothing against objectification. For the record though, I'm in favor of Ledo x Bellows, and she hasn't done any major fan service yet (or at all) if I am recalling her correctly.

lightbringer
2013-05-12, 14:53
Fanservice in this episode was fine. And no, Amy does not look like she's 12, that's just what anime girls look like :heh:

On a more serious note, going by all the serious faces in the preview, either the creature really was a Hideauze, which strikes me as unlikely at this stage (although a genetic connection may exist), or Ledo seriously mucked something up during its accidental annihilation. Either way, looks like things are gonna get serious now that we are getting into the second half of the season. I was already having a bad premonition of "farewell" during Amy's private dance show but now I'm seriously worried about Amy and Ledo's future together :sad:

Haruyasha
2013-05-12, 14:54
It's a real shame this series is so misunderstood.. I personally think the main character's development is very strong. Like I said, the series is addressing the issues it brought up in the first episode.. In that sense, Amy's "fanservice" isn't all that empty and meaningless..

I do not think that putting the 1 + 1 together is really that difficult.

As someone who is asexual

That's nice.. Perhaps you need to be sent to a devoid water planet, too.. Sitting here all day, I don't think you'll change much as an individual.

Folenfant
2013-05-12, 14:56
Can the belly dancing not just be both a cultural thing and a fan service thing cause I think it is. It's kind of like how the music video in Valvrave's recent episode was both a fundraising gambit for the newly independent colony and a way to send a message to the outside world that they're not all dead yet but also clearly fan service.

Personally I'm just glad that it looks like the story will be taking it's next step next episode. I feel I've gotten to know all I need to know about Amy and her friends and Ledo has had enough standing by and learning the ways of the Gargantia that it's a great time for further development of the shows overall core plot.

ApathyEcstasy
2013-05-12, 14:58
Lol I am starting to get the feeling now that the real issue is that Kim is against objectification.

Helius
2013-05-12, 14:58
99.7% probability.. Implying .3% they're wrong.

Although, tbh... I kinda wish it is the Hideauze.. this series is dragging out way too long.

I'm with the Hedeauze being evolved from those mutated sea creatures. The 0.3% probably just accounts for the genetic discrepancies in the evolutionary ladder.

Kirarakim
2013-05-12, 14:58
At no point did I ever say that the fan service is "meant" to represent culture. I am making the point that fan service IS a cultural feature, regardless of whether it is meant to be or not.

But I don't see much difference between fanservice in Japanese anime and fanservice in US productions. This is what I mean when I don't see my complaints as a lack of cultural understanding.

I am also not saying "belly dancing" can't be part of the characters culture. But the way it was animated (at least the first part) comes off as just adding more fan service.

It's not the belly dancing itself is the problem to me. It's the way the camera pans to the girls boobs and behind that feels objectional to me. I admit it wasn't the worst thing ever (and I said as much in previous posts) but lets not kid ourselves that this scene was primarily meant to be fanservice not tell us anything important about Gargantia culture.


Lol I am starting to get the feeling now that the real issue is that Kim is against objectification.

Of course. Is there something wrong about that?

Haruyasha
2013-05-12, 15:01
I'm with the Hedeauze being evolved from those mutated sea creatures. The 0.3% probably just accounts for the genetic discrepancies in the evolutionary ladder.

Yes, the idea that humans aren't the only ones who evolve slipped my mind.. But the fact that all Hideauze look like snails, squids, and plants really supports that idea.

ApathyEcstasy
2013-05-12, 15:02
But I don't see much difference between fanservice in Japanese anime and fanservice in US productions. This is what I mean when I don't see my complaints as a lack of cultural understanding.

I am also not saying "belly dancing" can't be part of the characters culture. But the way it was animated (at least the first part) comes off as just adding more fan service.

It's not the belly dancing itself is the problem to me. It's the way the camera pans to the girls boobs and behind that feels objectional to me. I admit it wasn't the worst thing ever (and I said as much in previous posts) but lets not kid ourselves that this scene was primarily meant to be fanservice not tell us anything important about Gargantia culture.

I'm not pretending that it was supposed to be some expression of Gargantian culture. I'm saying that providing fan service is a part of OUR culture. I'm also not saying that this is a matter of cultural understanding. Just because you're a part of US culture doesn't mean you're automatically in favor of all the features of your own culture. Hence there's no contradiction that you're both American and are opposed to American fan service. Likewise I am sure plenty of Japanese women are against Japanese fan service

Of course. Is there something wrong about that?

Of course not. No need to be so defensive about your choice. My point is only that watching shounen anime and then complaining about fan service is like drinking a bottle of wine and then complaining about a hangover. When I make the decision to give a shounen anime a try, I'm going into it with the understanding that there is likely to be some degree of fan service, whether gratuitous or not.

Jan-Poo
2013-05-12, 15:03
I really liked this episode from start to end in my opinion it was really well executed.

This episode managed to have even more fan service than the plotwise "pointless" swimsuit episode that we have seen last time, but this time it actually makes sense and it is really well done.

There's an enormous difference from fanservices where the girls just stick their bums in absolutely improbable and awkward positions for no reason and fanservices that are actually part of the plot.
In this case the girls were performing dances that were clearly meant to show and exalt their young bodies. It's not just something done for the public behind the 4th wall, it's done for the characters in the stories, they aren't doing that for no reason.

These dances had the twofold purpose of showing yet another bit of the culture of the Gargantians and Ledo's reaction to it. It was important that Ledo at this point would be mesmerized by both yet another cultural aspect that doesn't exist in his world and the sexuality inherent in Amy's dance which is also repressed where he always lived.

And I sure enjoyed seeing Ledo's reaction as well as seeing the beginning of the romance between he and her. The fact that he felt embarrassed when he realized he was touching her is clear sing of this albeit a but clicheed and typical of the Japanese culture.


Regarding the very last part, I'm also of the idea that the giant squid we have seen isn't a Hideauze coming from space but a close relative of them which are already known to exist by the Gargantians.


Also I thought Ledo's reaction to the octopus did have an element of PTSD about it.

That really surprised me. Ledo said that he stopped feeling fear at the very start of this series, but seeing as how he reacted to that mutated octopus he sure didn't show that.

Let's disregard his quick reaction that could simply be conditioning, but he was sweating and breathing heavily.

I loved Pinion hiding behind the table though XD

Kirarakim
2013-05-12, 15:07
I'm not pretending that it was supposed to be some expression of Gargantian culture. I'm saying that providing fan service is a part of OUR culture. I'm also not saying that this is a matter of cultural understanding. Just because you're a part of US culture doesn't mean you're automatically in favor of all the features of your own culture. Hence there's no contradiction that you're both American and are opposed to American fan service. Likewise I am sure plenty of Japanese women are against Japanese fan service.

Okay well I am not sure I entirely agree with all this but at least I think we are coming to an understanding.

Please note my original post about Otaku culture does not equal Japanese culture is because of someone saying our culture is so prude (I assumed this meant Western culture). This is what I was disagreeing with that people who are not fans of this type of fanservice are just prudes and don't understand that Japanese culture is different. That was my main objection when I said that fanservice is no way a representation of Japanese culture as a whole.

And also although you personally weren't saying that the scenes were meant to be a representation of Gargantia culture, other people certainly were.

Of course not. No need to be so defensive about your choice. My point is only that watching shounen anime and then complaining about fan service is like drinking a bottle of wine and then complaining about a hangover.

Eh plenty of shounen anime don't have fanservice. Also like I said while the girls were kind of scantily dressed from the beginning the fanservice has been amped up starting with episode 3.

It doesn't ruin the anime for me by any means but it is a bit disappointing.

ApathyEcstasy
2013-05-12, 15:09
Okay well I am not sure I entirely agree with this but at least I think we are coming to an understanding.

Please note my original post about Otaku culture does not equal Japanese culture is because of someone saying our culture is so prude (I assumed this meant Western culture). This is what I was disagreeing with that people who are not fans of this type of fanservice or just prudes and don't understand that Japanese culture is different. That was my main objection when I said that fanservice is no way a representation of Japanese culture as a whole.

And also although you personally weren't saying that the scenes were meant to be a representation of Gargantia culture, other people certainly were.

Yes well that was never my argument. It was somebody else's. You should direct your argument to the correct person! lol.

Gravitas Free Zone
2013-05-12, 15:13
I thought that aspect of the scene in the bar was quite poorly directed. Was Ledo looking at the stage? It seemed like he was looking in an entirely different direction throughout, either in horror at the "Hideauze" on his plate, or toward the waitress, or toward his potential employers. If he was looking at the girls, it wasn't made obvious.

Ledo looks at the stage once Bellows and Pinion really start arguing and Bellows actually bends down so that she's out of his line of sight to the stage, at which point he is staring blankly at Amy. The moment is very short, during the entire preceding conversation he is not paying any attention to the stage at all, and right after that he draws his sidearm on the main course.

It does make the point, but holding the scene for a moment longer or showing Ledo and Amy making eye contact then would have helped.

The octopus horror moment is a good setup for the final scene, but during the actual restaurant scene it messed up my recollection of events enough that I barely remembered Ledo noticing the stage until I rewatched. Also, editing in T&A shots of the dancing girls while Ledo and Pinion were having their conversation actually made those events feel more separated instead of connected.

KrimzonStriker
2013-05-12, 15:16
But I don't see much difference between fanservice in Japanese anime and fanservice in US productions. This is what I mean when I don't see my complaints as a lack of cultural understanding.

I am also not saying "belly dancing" can't be part of the characters culture. But the way it was animated (at least the first part) comes off as just adding more fan service.

It's not the belly dancing itself is the problem to me. It's the way the camera pans to the girls boobs and behind that feels objectional to me. I admit it wasn't the worst thing ever (and I said as much in previous posts) but lets not kid ourselves that this scene was primarily meant to be fanservice not tell us anything important about Gargantia culture.



Of course. Is there something wrong about that?

What's the cultural significance of Carneival in Brazil? This was a festival in a similar light and that's how I think people should approach it, and simply kick back and have fun like they try to do with Ledo. In my mind, that he asked for a repeat performance afterwards symbolized that because initially he didn't pay attention. Plus by you logic of objectification we should throw out nude sculptures and paintings. Nor accusing you of meaning that but that's what it implies to me.

ApathyEcstasy
2013-05-12, 15:20
Eh plenty of shounen anime don't have fanservice. Also like I said while the girls were kind of scantily dressed from the beginning the fanservice has been amped up starting with episode 3.

Yes. And not every bottle of wine will lead to a hangover. My point still stands. Shounen anime may not always have gratuitous fan service, but the odds of it are certainly much greater than if you're watching something else.

It doesn't ruin the anime for me by any means but it is a bit disappointing.

Poor baby. Want a hug? :D I find this whole conversation ironic, since I'm also not really into the fan service because of the important way in which it takes precious limited minutes and animation budget away from the main attraction.

That being said, I know how to enjoy myself some delicious objectification. Omnomnom human meat market.

Folenfant
2013-05-12, 15:20
I honestly don't mind the fan service with Amy and her skimpy outfits in general on the whole character design/being easy on the eyes front...I mean that's not the reason that I don't care much for her character yet so much as she doesn't have a whole lot going on for her other than in terms of what she's doing in the show other than her relationship with Ledo. So far I see mild shades of Romary Stone from Gundam AGE in being defined largely by her relationship with the much more interesting male lead.

ApathyEcstasy
2013-05-12, 15:24
What's the cultural significance of Carneival in Brazil? This was a festival in a similar light and that's how I think people should approach it, and simply kick back and have fun like they try to do with Ledo. In my mind, that he asked for a repeat performance afterwards symbolized that because initially he didn't pay attention. Plus by you logic of objectification we should throw out nude sculptures and paintings. Nor accusing you of meaning that but that's what it implies to me.

A huge facet of culture is entertainment and amusement. Sexy people dancing like tantalizing pieces of meat is entertaining and amusing. Omnomnom deliciousness.

Kirarakim
2013-05-12, 15:26
Yes well that was never my argument. It was somebody else's. You should direct your argument to the correct person! lol.

If you didn't say it then I didn't originally quote you as I did quote the original statement. I don't remember who I quoted though because I was replying back to more than one person. Maybe that was my mistake. ;)


What's the cultural significance of Carneival in Brazil?

Clearly you have not read through my posts. I said I have no problem with actual belly dancing (and I have seen it in person many times myself). I also said there was a sharp contrast to Amy's later dance and the earlier one of the 3 girls.

I had some issue with how the camera was purposely panning on the girls boobs and behind. This came off as objectifying to me. And as others have mentioned the room was filled with men gazing on them.

I also said that I could tolerate it (and no I don't think it is the worst thing ever) but I think it is silly to deny what it is=fanservice not a scene for us to better understand Gargantia culture.

KrimzonStriker
2013-05-12, 15:26
^^It was a rhetorical question, if not quite the sarcastic answer I was going for :heh:

^You didn't read my full post. This whole episode was about getting Ledo to ease up, the dancing in my view was to symbolise that turmoil in his mind along with the contentious conversation between Pinion and Bellows.

ApathyEcstasy
2013-05-12, 15:27
If you didn't say it then I didn't originally quote you as I did quote the original statement. I don't remember who I quoted though because I was replying back to more than one person. Maybe that was my mistake. ;)

It's okay. I checked out the anime you're currently following from your "MAL" page and it seems we're mostly following all the same ones this season. I look forward to more discussions.

Clearly you have not read through my posts. I said I have no problem with actual belly dancing (and I have seen it in person many times myself). I also said there was a sharp contrast to Amy's later dance and the earlier one of the 3 girls.

I had some issue with how the camera was purposely panning on the girls boobs and behind. This came off as objectifying to me. And as others have mentioned the room was filled with men.

I am also said that I could tolerate it but I think it is silly to deny what it is=fanservice not a scene for us to better understand Gargantia culture.

The panning was delicious though. I mean yeah, I would've certainly preferred if they had spent more time and resources on the fantasy, mystery, and sci-fi elements, but since they didn't, I don't have any trouble enjoying what little consolation (fan service) they are attempting to offer. It's shounen anime so they'll have to appeal to either sexuality or violence (or both), but since sexuality is probably cheaper to animate, their decision to do so makes sense from a business perspective. That being said, there are very good reasons why I prefer seinen and josei anime.

Anh_Minh
2013-05-12, 15:29
That really surprised me. Ledo said that he stopped feeling fear at the very start of this series, but seeing as how he reacted to that mutated octopus he sure didn't show that.

Let's disregard his quick reaction that could simply be conditioning, but he was sweating and breathing heavily.

I loved Pinion hiding behind the table though XD

I think the unfamiliarity of his environment's reawakened his sense of fear. He was also very jumpy when he was with Amy, but once he was in Chamber, he was, once again, calm. Even when a Hideauze appeared.

andyjay729
2013-05-12, 15:40
I don't know if Ledo was scared of the octopus so much as battle-ready. He's conditioned to think "tentacles=enemy=ZENMETSU", no questions asked.

Kirarakim
2013-05-12, 15:45
^^It was a rhetorical question, if not quite the sarcastic answer I was going for :heh:


Sorry it's the internet I can't always read people's tones correctly.



The panning was delicious though. I mean yeah, I would've certainly preferred if they had spent more time and resources on the fantasy, mystery, and sci-fi elements, but since they didn't, I don't have any trouble enjoying what little consolation (fan service) they are attempting to offer. It's shounen anime so they'll have to appeal to either sexuality or violence (or both), but since sexuality is probably cheaper to animate, their decision to do so makes sense from a business perspective. That being said, there are very good reasons why I prefer seinen and josei anime.

And I don't actually have any problem with people saying they enjoy it as fanservice. :)

But I do think the fanservice has been amped up quite a bit from what I initially thought it was going to be. I can't deny that I am disappointed by that but it is what it is.

And well I did actually think this episode was a step up from last week. But the best episodes for me so far have been 1,2, and 4.

Kanon
2013-05-12, 15:45
Excellent. Once again, this is the type of slice of life episodes that I love. It took the good elements of the previous episode and removed the bad ones.

The dancing was indeed a lot better than in Magi, which granted, isn't hard. It was beautiful to watch nonetheless. It was pretty sensual and tasteful in my opinion. Well, not so much the part where the guys in the room were fawning over a bunch of teenagers, but you'd get that kind of reaction anywhere. This kind of dancing is meant to be enticing after all. I was disappointed the only dancers were the three girls, however. I would loved to see Bellows dancing in that kind of outfit... fanartists are my last hope.

Good development for Ledo and Amy. They're slowly growing closer, and Ledo is apparently starting to see her as a woman. This is the perfect time to introduce some drama, which is presumably what the show is about to do going by the end of the episode. 99.7% is a pretty damn high percentage. That thing, which I agree is probably the whalesquid Bellows was talking about is definitely related to the Hideauze in some way. It's rather intriguing that it's apparently not hostile. Me thinks we're about to get some huge revelation.

There's an enormous difference from fanservices where the girls just stick their bums in absolutely improbable and awkward positions for no reason and fanservices that are actually part of the plot.
In this case the girls were performing dances that were clearly meant to show and exalt their young bodies. It's not just something done for the public behind the 4th wall, it's done for the characters in the stories, they aren't doing that for no reason.

These dances had the twofold purpose of showing yet another bit of the culture of the Gargantians and Ledo's reaction to it. It was important that Ledo at this point would be mesmerized by both yet another cultural aspect that doesn't exist in his world and the sexuality inherent in Amy's dance which is also repressed where he always lived.

This. Thank you. It fit perfectly into the narrative and had a purpose. You would lose a lot if you removed this "fanservice", which was actually much more than that. It was completely different from what we got last week. I never expected this would spark such an animated debate.

But I do think the fanservice has been amped up quite a bit from what I initially thought it was going to be. I can't deny that I am disappointed but it is what it is.

They got a famous hentai artist to design the characters, so this wasn't unexpected. I don't think it's actually as bad as you make it out to be. I guess everybody has a different threshold. This feels like light fanservice to me.

KrimzonStriker
2013-05-12, 15:52
Sorry it's the internet I can't always read people's tones correctly.

The two arrows pointing up meant that particular statement was for Apathy. My response to you came in the second statement with only one arrow and I'm curious if you see my point as to the close-up shots representing Ledo's turmoil.

ApathyEcstasy
2013-05-12, 15:53
Sorry it's the internet I can't always read people's tones correctly.





And I don't actually have any problem with people saying they enjoy it as fanservice. :)

But I do think the fanservice has been amped up quite a bit from what I initially thought it was going to be. I can't deny that I am disappointed by that but it is what it is.

And well I did actually think this episode was a step up from last week. But the best episodes for me so far have been 1,2, and 4.

Those are my "best episodes" as well. That being said, this anime season could have been better. I really wish they had gone on to continue with a S3 of Magi, Jojo, and SAO.

joshuafaramir
2013-05-12, 15:54
FANSERVICE DESU will never go away in whatever kind of anime your watching. It's a "put up or shut up" situation.

Anyhow, what kind of guy in their right mind wouldn't get rowdy when watching a live performance of a scantily clad and sensual dance by young ladies. Men by nature are attracted to youth... It's instinctual.

KrimzonStriker
2013-05-12, 16:01
I don't think you guys are looking at the scene deep enough or appreciating the context it was in, dance symbolizing a character's inner conflict and turmoil is a common enough device in my experience and I don't think you're giving the animetors enough credit here.

Crazy'O
2013-05-12, 16:02
And I don't actually have any problem with people saying they enjoy it as fanservice. :)

But I do think the fanservice has been amped up quite a bit from what I initially thought it was going to be. I can't deny that I am disappointed by that but it is what it is.


Ok, I understand.

I think I can relate to this. Several years ago I watched a show called Kare Kano and I really liked it. But I was bothered by the implied homosexuality of a character. I realized this show wasn't really targeting my demographic. But I saw that there may be demand for that and there are girls and some men who like to be catered too also. Yes, fanservice is part of more anime but that's only because the demand is there and people actually spend money on it.

The ratio is far better on the Manga/Doujin market. But personally I've come to the conclusion that I don't complain about shows that aren't targeting my interests and accept them if I get enjoyment out of them. Thanks to this I came to like some great shows like Nana, Skip Beat or even Ouran High School Host Club.

I think it's sad that people complain about fanservice instead supporting more and different content. It's not like fanservice will disappear because there is a demand for it. But prove that there is a demand for other things aswell and we all will profit from it. I will be the last one complaining about a good anime that was not marketed for me.

Kirarakim
2013-05-12, 16:04
They got a famous hentai artist to design the characters, so this wasn't unexpected.

Well I personally found this information out later. But yeah I guess that should have clued me in.


I don't think it's actually as bad as you make it out to be. I guess everybody has a different threshold. This feels like light fanservice to me.

Actually I said in my initial posts it's something I can tolerate. Although like I said it wasn't the belly dancing itself but the way the camera was panning that was the issue for me. Although I do know what you mean by different thresholds.

KrimzonStriker
2013-05-12, 16:08
Actually I said in my initial posts it's something I can tolerate. Although like I said it wasn't the belly dancing itself but the way the camera was panning that was the issue for me. Although I do know what you mean by different thresholds.

Anyways I was more bothered by certain posts on here than the fanservice in the episode itself if I am being frank.

Would one of those posts be me? Because I'm honestly trying to be constructive here and would like to get some opinions on my point

Shinhwa
2013-05-12, 16:16
That thing at the end no matter what looks something not from Earth...

Don't tell me this series will be where Hideaze attacks humans on earth and Ledo trying to kill them all or something, where Urobutcher finally comes in and gives everyone some Zetsubou and Tragedy... = =;

DuelGundam2099
2013-05-12, 16:45
Perhaps you need to be sent to a devoid water planet, too
What the hell will that accomplish?

FredFriendly
2013-05-12, 17:05
My only problem with the belly dancing is that it's the same three girls we've seen the entire series. What, are they the only girls under 25 years old in the entire floating city?

This was also my reaction.

It's not the belly dancing itself is the problem to me. It's the way the camera pans to the girls boobs and behind that feels objectional to me.

If, say, it had been Bellows and other older women dancing, would it have been less objectionable to you?

To me, that whole belly dancing scene was objectionable because, a) the women dancing were in fact young girls, and b) the atmosphere was more like that encountered in strip joints where the dancers will perform extra services (which makes it even more objectionable considering the age of the girls).

Of course, this is me applying my own standards to the Gargantian culture. What we learn from this episode is that not only is it okay for the men of Gargantia to view young teenage girls as overt sex symbols, they are actually encouraged to do so, and young teenage girls are encouraged to exhibit and flaunt their sexuality openly in front of men, titillating and exciting them as much as possible.

ThereminVox
2013-05-12, 17:09
Some more great stuff again this week for Ledo. I'm deeply invested in his development as a person at this point, and it was good to get some reminders of how far he's come from being a deeply conditioned soldier by seeing him suddenly snap back into that frame of mind. Those scars will probably never go away, even if he had nothing but peaceful days on the Gargantia ahead of him.

The first belly dancing was a clever bit of fanservice, in that it was culturally justified and was executed with real effort to portray the actual dance. It did feel kind of like cheating to put the girls in skimpy outfits again so soon after episode 5, but at some point I just have to shrug and say "eh, anime."

The private dance on the other hand was tremendous, and I loved it. Watching Ledo slowly develop interpersonal relationships with humans in general and Amy in particular has been one of the joys of the season for me, and the ship-teasing is further fueled by the other characters encouraging him to consider his personal desires and the joys that can come of living. They're asking him the unfamiliar question of "what do you want?" This is something that Ledo has the opportunity to consider now that he's "standing by," or "living" as Bevel calls it.

As for the glowing squid, I'm with most of you. It's probably not a Hideouze as Ledo knows it, but a hint that humanity's greatest enemy is of the same terrestrial origin, and is the result of mutations. Further, Ledo is going into the scavenging business, where Bellows says he can uncover all sorts of forgotten things, so we're likely going to get some historical revelations from the bottom of the sea.

Dark Wing
2013-05-12, 17:39
Looks like I was right in that Ledo would start to develop some kind of feelings for Amy he probably don't know what it's called yet. However from the preview images it seems the happy days won't last long especially after seeing that shot of Ledo pushing Amy out of his way to get into Chamber. :(

SeijiSensei
2013-05-12, 19:09
If, say, it had been Bellows and other older women dancing, would it have been less objectionable to you?

I won't speak for Kim, but yes, it would have been less objectionable to me. When the girls first appear they are shot from a distance, so we don't really know who they are. I expected to see a trio of anonymous adult performers dancing on stage, not our 16-yo heroine and her two best friends.

To me, that whole belly dancing scene was objectionable because, a) the women dancing were in fact young girls, and b) the atmosphere was more like that encountered in strip joints where the dancers will perform extra services (which makes it even more objectionable considering the age of the girls).

Of course, this is me applying my own standards to the Gargantian culture. What we learn from this episode is that not only is it okay for the men of Gargantia to view young teenage girls as overt sex symbols, they are actually encouraged to do so, and young teenage girls are encouraged to exhibit and flaunt their sexuality openly in front of men, titillating and exciting them as much as possible.

My thoughts exactly. Thanks! If we still had rep points, I'd give you some.

Pong
2013-05-12, 19:12
Ledo is probably one of the most interesting characters that showed up in anime in years. He comes from a world were life was reduced to bare essentials needed to continue the war. Not only is Ledo himself as much a tool of war as Chamber, the entire alliance seemingly structured itself around the war with Hideazu to the point that nobody even considered what they'll do if they win. To call what separates him from Earthlings a "wall of cultural differences" would understatement. They come from two completely different worlds.

I love how it's portrayed, and this episode does it perfectly. It's not played for laughs, we can see that Ledo is seriously troubled when he has no orders to follow, and is confused by all those weird inefficient ideas that Earthlings have, like the fact that food can be enjoyed and is not only source of nutrition or that once you secured things like food and air, you might want to use your money for something else.

I love he's slowly learning to live on his own terms and trying to find something he wants to do instead of just following orders. I also liked that it's slow process and the second he assumes there's danger present he falls back on his military training.

We finally see just why Chamber needs Ledo anyway. For all his super-AI capabilities it seems he still must rely on human judgement for more complicated things.

The dance scene was... awesome, simply awesome. I don't just mean in fanservice sense either. It was beautifully choreographed and animated. You could be the gayest man in the world and still enjoy every minute of it.

Lots of interesting tibids too like the fact that the Galaxy ways are made of ancient nano-machines. Also the ending. Oh man things are getting interesting as the plot thickens. I'll be waiting for the next episode on the edge of my seat.

10/10 Perfect episode!

Grey
2013-05-12, 19:19
A little bit heavy on the scantily clad femme focus this time. :heh: But, along with the BGM, it did create some cool, eerie dissonance when Ledo flipped out at the octopus.

Also, 99.97% probability that the...squid thing at the end is Hideauze? Spooky. And ancient nanomachines in the water?

I look forward to seeing more undersea salvaging and exploration!


Edit: I hope Ledo doesn't break anything by killing that squid thing. :heh: Like wiping out a crucial part of a nanomachine system that transmits power.

taofd
2013-05-12, 19:53
Wasn't too impressed w/ this episode. There was a noticeable drop in animation quality and there was too much of a focus on fan service. Recent episodes make me wonder who is the target demographic of this series...

ChainLegacy
2013-05-12, 20:00
Wasn't too impressed w/ this episode. There was a noticeable drop in animation quality and there was too much of a focus on fan service. Recent episodes make me wonder who is the target demographic of this series...

I'm starting to get a little worried, too. They really hooked me in with the early episodes and now it feels like they've gone on some completely different track. I wouldn't say I outright disliked this or the previous episode, but I'm definitely not impressed. Originally, I was very intrigued by the backdrop of the plot. Hopefully the psuedo-hideauze creature seen at the end of this episode will serve as a launchpad to get back into that 'lore' of the series.

Grey
2013-05-12, 20:21
Maybe the Hideauze are a failed engineering project of the people who went into space. Tried to engineer octopi/squid to do some space tasks but lost control and they became the autonomous Hideauze. Mutated them and merged them with nanomachines maybe?

That would be a pretty sad and dangerous blunder.

Maybe they can use these semi-Hideauze as a trojan that carries some sort of destructive payload to the Hideauze nest. If the show ever brings the Alliance-Hideauze conflict back into Ledo's story.

bastek66
2013-05-12, 20:26
Wasn't too impressed w/ this episode. There was a noticeable drop in animation quality and there was too much of a focus on fan service. Recent episodes make me wonder who is the target demographic of this series...
Demography is exactly that which they want. It's currently third most preordered anime of season.

Midonin
2013-05-12, 20:51
I keep forgetting little points.

One is the flute metaphor. Something that comes from a bad place that needs a hole poked into it to make something good. Obvious but effective.

Two. "Turtle shell ass" doesn't really sound like an insult, at least through my lens. If Bellows is packing a little backside, more power to her. It worked for Team Vivid!

Guardian Enzo
2013-05-12, 21:02
Very good ep - but does anyone else think it did exactly what #5 did, only it was good? I wasn't sure last week's ep was necessary in any way but this one seems to totally obsolete it, because it covered the same themes only in far better fashion. This really should have been episode 5.

bastek66
2013-05-12, 21:12
First blush
http://i.imgur.com/O7AuhH6l.jpg (http://imgur.com/O7AuhH6)
Look how subtlety is this anime:
http://i.imgur.com/YKfvZEpl.jpg (http://imgur.com/YKfvZEp)
http://i.imgur.com/M2zqPlvl.jpg (http://imgur.com/M2zqPlv)
http://i.imgur.com/vQaeK7A.gif (http://imgur.com/vQaeK7A)

Jetzero Infinity
2013-05-12, 21:32
Nice episode this week. It was interesting seeing Ledo struggle with the concept of money, and I like how it tied into him trying to understand work in the last ep showing that there was some value to it despite people's complaints. Also nice to see the romance between him and Amy progressing quite a bit. The angles for those dancing scenes felt a bit too much at times but I guess the purpose was to highlight Ledo's attraction so I sort of get where they were going with it. Should be interesting to see where the romance stuff leads since Ledo doesn't really have any concept of the subject at all.

The Hideauze related stuff was also pretty nice. I thought Ledo would cause a bigger scene after that freakout but it was nice to see them avoid that cliche, though I wonder what'll happen now that he's confirmed the real deal are living on the planet.

ChainLegacy
2013-05-12, 21:57
Very good ep - but does anyone else think it did exactly what #5 did, only it was good? I wasn't sure last week's ep was necessary in any way but this one seems to totally obsolete it, because it covered the same themes only in far better fashion. This really should have been episode 5.

Yes. We could have done without the previous episode, or perhaps combined some of the better themes of it into this one. As it stands, I couldn't properly enjoy this episode, even though it was clearly the superior one, because I felt like we were wasting time treading the same water over again. A little 'down time' is fine, but two episodes is a bit much.

Kirarakim
2013-05-12, 22:09
Yes. We could have done without the previous episode, or perhaps combined some of the better themes of it into this one. As it stands, I couldn't properly enjoy this episode, even though it was clearly the superior one, because I felt like we were wasting time treading the same water over again. A little 'down time' is fine, but two episodes is a bit much.

Agreed, this episode was much better than last week but there were still some meh things here too.

It would have been best if they took the best things from both episodes and made one episode focused on Ledo trying to find a purpose on Gargantia.

kyp275
2013-05-12, 22:31
Reading through this thread makes me think some people would be happier if every female characters are fully wrapped from head to toe and act like nuns. Some people IMO takes political correctness entirely way too far.

That said, glad to see the story turning its focus on the space-squid threat, it's about time.

Irenesharda
2013-05-12, 23:03
Wasn't too impressed w/ this episode. There was a noticeable drop in animation quality and there was too much of a focus on fan service. Recent episodes make me wonder who is the target demographic of this series...

That's exactly what I thought when I saw this episode. I kept getting the feeling that the show didn't know who it's target audience was and so were trying a bit of everything. However, as with a lot of times when you do that, you end up pleasing nobody.

I know some who came in thinking it was an action mecha, some who thought it was a slice-of-life with a little romcom, some even thinking it was a harem/ecchi. And because Gargantia has some of all these things, no one knows really what to think.

Jimmy C
2013-05-12, 23:18
The quality drop when Amy and friends got on stage was atrocious. My first thought was, "who are those girls?" Then, "I think that's supposed to Amy, but isn't her other friend supposed to be dark haired?""

jeroz
2013-05-13, 00:33
Again, I have to remind you guys that Hanaharu designed characters for Kamichu. So finding the most idiotic excuses for things you don't like.

OliverTwist
2013-05-13, 00:55
I'll give this 1 more episode because it looks like something might finally be happening, but if it's a red herring I think I'm done with the series. It hasn't turned out to be anything like what I was expecting after the first 2 episodes.

I'd be more interested if it didn't look like everything from this point on was gonna be driven by Ledo protecting the generic love interest Amy.

Terrestrial Dream
2013-05-13, 01:09
Reading through this thread makes me think some people would be happier if every female characters are fully wrapped from head to toe and act like nuns. Some people IMO takes political correctness entirely way too far.

That said, glad to see the story turning its focus on the space-squid threat, it's about time. To be fair fan service wasn't this strong in previous episode, this one feels little out of the norm.

I enjoy the slow development of interaction between Ledo and the rest of the people. It give us sense that Ledo is really starting to bond and learn from other. Now we pretty much set the character dynamics, the real plot should be kicking in soon.

apotheosis
2013-05-13, 01:19
I'm starting to get a little worried, too. They really hooked me in with the early episodes and now it feels like they've gone on some completely different track. I wouldn't say I outright disliked this or the previous episode, but I'm definitely not impressed. Originally, I was very intrigued by the backdrop of the plot. Hopefully the psuedo-hideauze creature seen at the end of this episode will serve as a launchpad to get back into that 'lore' of the series.

Agreed. At least this episode had a bit more interesting conversation than last & some comedy with the fishes.

The hook at the end is intrigueing ... whether its really a hideauze or not, I hope it marks the start of something deeper as well.

Anh_Minh
2013-05-13, 01:48
Reading through this thread makes me think some people would be happier if every female characters are fully wrapped from head to toe and act like nuns. Some people IMO takes political correctness entirely way too far.

That said, glad to see the story turning its focus on the space-squid threat, it's about time.

I wouldn't care if Bellows thought a bikini was perfectly normal work attire. Or even if they had a dance festival where everyone danced.

But yeah, I have to admit - 16 years old belly dancers are a bit much for me. Especially with the camera angles.

Cloudedmind
2013-05-13, 02:04
I'm interested to know what people think the "real" plot is. Personally I think it's Ledo learning how to be a human being and just not a product of his military conditioning. So with that in mind, I don't think these last two episodes have deviated from the plot. Last episode Ledo try's to find his purpose, this episode he's still looking for a purpose, and possibly experiences sexual attraction for the first time. These are all part of his character development. That's not to say these were great episodes, although I did enjoy them for the most part. So when people make comments about the show getting back to the plot it makes me wonder, what show are you guys watching exactly. ^_^;; To me the hideaze are not the focus of the show, yes they are important because they are a part of the world that Ledo comes from that shaped who he is, but they are not the main focus. Although, like many of you I do find them interesting and wonder where they come from and all that.

Also was this the first episode in which Ledo smiles, albeit it was a bit forced? We only really see it for like a split second because then he and Amy get interrupted by her friends.

Izayoi
2013-05-13, 02:07
This whole thread seems to be just about the fan service that hardly bothered me. With the character design and all, it would be odd not to expect fan service. I admit there were more fanservices in this episode than usual but it shouldn't be that surprising. In addition, the dance was well animated and was quite enticing when mixed with the music and mood. Overall, it was an excellent episode.

ReddyRedWolf
2013-05-13, 02:27
Believe it or not Bellows is 18 years old. Rakage is 19 years old.

Given the fact the fleet council asked for Amy's input on the stranger and she is already a full time contributor to society it might be argued Amy is already an adult by Gargantian standards.

Notice Ledo observation that kids are free to play where as people his age work. Melty is 14 so beginning 13 or 14 an individual should start to contribute to the community.

jeroz
2013-05-13, 02:55
After so many years, Ledo finally reached puberty.

Obelisk ze Tormentor
2013-05-13, 03:10
After so many years, Ledo finally reached puberty.And that actually makes me thankful that we have a 16-year-old space soldier as protagonist, not 30 or older :heh::uhoh:.

taofd
2013-05-13, 03:42
I'll give this 1 more episode because it looks like something might finally be happening, but if it's a red herring I think I'm done with the series. It hasn't turned out to be anything like what I was expecting after the first 2 episodes.

I'd be more interested if it didn't look like everything from this point on was gonna be driven by Ledo protecting the generic love interest Amy.

I liked Kamichu actually... but it's really not a fair comparison. The characters in Gargantia is fine, where the plot is headed is not. IMHO, after an excellent first episode, and even follow up 2nd episode, it is an utter waste for this show to become fan service fodder.

Episode 5 wasn't even that bad for me, but two episodes in a row of pure fan service is really pushing it. Maybe it's my fault for coming into this show expecting a sophisticated Sci-Fi Urobucho series.

Jan-Poo
2013-05-13, 05:43
Episode 5 wasn't even that bad for me, but two episodes in a row of pure fan service is really pushing it. Maybe it's my fault for coming into this show expecting a sophisticated Sci-Fi Urobucho series.

From the very beginning I thought this was a show about Ledo adapting to the life in Gargantia (hint: title). I'm not disappointed at all because so far I'm getting what I was expecting. And while I agree that the 5th episode was mostly filler this 6th episode is not because we see important steps being taken by Ledo on its path to find a place in this new world.

zztop
2013-05-13, 05:45
Fun fact: Ledo's seaweed bread strongly resembles prata/roti canai, an Indian-influenced flatbread from Malaysia, Singapore and Indonesia.
It goes very well with most curries, although it stands pretty well by itself too.

http://www.ayshacatering.com/communities/6/004/009/209/446/images/4550969309.jpg

Has anyone here ever had prata before?

Obelisk ze Tormentor
2013-05-13, 05:55
Has anyone here ever had prata before?Yup. Its already delicious as a standalone food. But it's even more so if you add toppings of your choice (cheese, chocolate, sambal, meat, etc).

But I think what Ledo ate looks more fluffy than your usual prata.

jeroz
2013-05-13, 07:02
I can accept people using"not enough character development" as a reason for not liking ep5.
but seriously? when we saw plenty of growth from Ledo this episode character wise you still complain?

Edit: no pun intended
Edit2: fluff it, pun intended.

Pong
2013-05-13, 07:29
All this bitching about fanservice makes me wonder how warped and unhealthy is a culture that views sexuality as something dirty and shameful and showing it of as degrading and objectifying.

Compared to that, people of Gargantia have it all figured out. :cool:

j4c06
2013-05-13, 07:29
Let me guess: the Hideauze evolved from marine life on Earth. This will create a conflict in Ledo's already troubled mind.

Or, maybe when he jumped through the wormhole he ended up in humanity's past where the Hideauze are still merely sea life, and he can help humans coexist with them rather than create the future enemy.

Better still, he will be the catalyst in creating the Hideauze from the (still friendly) sea creatures.

Kanon
2013-05-13, 09:40
Believe it or not Bellows is 18 years old. Rakage is 19 years old.

Seriously? I thought they were in their twenties at least. That's pretty ridiculous especially for Rakage/Lacage.

FlareKnight
2013-05-13, 09:42
Let me guess: the Hideauze evolved from marine life on Earth. This will create a conflict in Ledo's already troubled mind.

Or, maybe when he jumped through the wormhole he ended up in humanity's past where the Hideauze are still merely sea life, and he can help humans coexist with them rather than create the future enemy.

Better still, he will be the catalyst in creating the Hideauze from the (still friendly) sea creatures.
Yeah, that last scene should make things pretty interesting now that we've gotten a chance to set things up character wise. At the very least data wise that is a Hideauze, but a lot of possibilities still attached to that. Maybe they did evolve from the armine life on Earth. It could be dangerous, but maybe those that remained in their natural environment are peaceful. If those things could evolve to survive in space who knows what happened to their behavior once they got there.

Of course plenty of options left like time travel, etc, so will be fun to see what happens next. Could see him going on a bit of a crusade though, diving into the sea hunting for Hideauze.

Iron Maw
2013-05-13, 11:03
Better than last week IMO. Much more substantial progress in both in terms character development for Ledo and the plot in general. I also noticed in some parts pf Ledo's dialogue he's speaks fairly fluently which is a nice touch if intention. Fanservice was notably more "in face your face" this time around, but still prefer it this way instead nearly an episode being about it.

Count me in as one of those who predicted the a Hideauze being on earth, even fact that was probably weak one. :p

maximilianjenus
2013-05-13, 11:11
From the very beginning I thought this was a show about Ledo adapting to the life in Gargantia (hint: title). I'm not disappointed at all because so far I'm getting what I was expecting. And while I agree that the 5th episode was mostly filler this 6th episode is not because we see important steps being taken by Ledo on its path to find a place in this new world.

Ledo is an otaku who is adapting to the outside world; though in fact it is more general and for me the series work as a coming of age plot. the thing with the squids is that we don't know if there is a 99% chance of them being hideauze or if they are 99% hideauze genetically speaking, the latter might mean that they are the monkeys to the hideauze humans, but I prefer the former because it might force ledo to kill the hideauze thus having a big impact on the ecosystem of earth, which ads a pollution/humans ruining the planet sub plot to the anime.

Will ledo kill the hideauze even if that risks ruining the balance of earth's ecosystem, to fulfill humanity's goal of exterminating the hideauze , or will he value humanity itself more than humanity's goal ?

ahelo
2013-05-13, 11:13
Mor's dance should've been like Amy's dance.

Dark Wing
2013-05-13, 11:21
Believe it or not Bellows is 18 years old. Rakage is 19 years old.

Given the fact the fleet council asked for Amy's input on the stranger and she is already a full time contributor to society it might be argued Amy is already an adult by Gargantian standards.

Notice Ledo observation that kids are free to play where as people his age work. Melty is 14 so beginning 13 or 14 an individual should start to contribute to the community.

That is very observant of you Red. People tend to forget that once upon a time if your old enough to do work then you were considered an adult by most cultural standards. Even in today's world there are still places that hold on to these concepts.

Anh_Minh
2013-05-13, 11:32
Yeah, and in some places, kids younger than ten are put to work. Heck, in some places, kids younger than ten are put to work as child prostitutes.

I'm not saying it was that bad. But it still wasn't the kind of scene I want to see in my entertainment. Especially considering how... forced it was.

Pinion brings Ledo to a restaurant - fair enough. It's a restaurant with a show, but instead of trying to put Ledo in an even better mood by enjoying the show, the focus is entirely on the food and Pinion's proposal - for Ledo. We are treated to the dance. And coincidentally instead of random dancers, the ones on stage are Amy and her friends (don't they have jobs to do?).

tsunade666
2013-05-13, 11:32
Crappy animation why!!!!?

The episode is great and the romantic development is also nice. I'm actually feeling happy without the butchering but then the episode ended with the enemy of mankind appearing. I wonder if there will be massacre. Hope not.

Iron Maw
2013-05-13, 11:37
Mor's dance should've been like Amy's dance.

Going off of this a little bit.

I wonder why was Amy and her two other friends the only dancers anyway? This type of festival usually have way more dancers and I'm sure there are a lot girls on Gargantia that were around Amy and co ages who could participate.

Triple_R
2013-05-13, 11:41
The fanservice, per se, isn't what I think is disappointing some people here.

The fanservice in this episode, and in this anime, would indeed be mild if this was, say, your standard modern LN adaptation or your standard harem romcom.

But that's generally not what people look for in a Gen Urobuchi-wrote show or in a mecha show. I honestly am a bit disappointed that world building in this show has focused pretty heavily on mundane, slice of life-stuff while grander sci-fi/space fantasy lore has been almost nowhere to be seen since Episode 1 (this undersea exploration with Bellows is frankly well overdue).


It's one thing for Gen to shift from his typical dark style to a relatively lighter one. But even then, it's a bit surprising that this work has been so light and fluffy this episode and the one before it; it's like going from one extreme to the other. If you had told me a few months ago that Gargantia would be, by far, the most light and fluffy and fanservice-driven of the three Spring 2013 mecha shows, I would have found that hard to believe. Yet here we are, and it is indeed the case right now.

Destined_Fate
2013-05-13, 11:45
Going off of this a little bit.

I wonder why was Amy and her two other friends the only dancers anyway? This type of festival usually have way more dancers and I'm sure there are a lot girls on Gargantia that were around Amy and co ages who could participate.

Betting on Fanservice and how athletic they are. They also seemed to volunteer for it and with their asking Amy about why she wasn't changed yet makes it seem like they've been doing it like every year for awhile.

Anyway.

Ledo asking to see her dance when they were alone and being mesmerized but it was hilarious. Than Amy's reaction when he shielded her from what he thought was a threat. They really are adding fuel to this ship ad letting the sail go all out.

Reminds me of last episode when her jealous friend was demanding why it was always Amy that got Ledo.

maximilianjenus
2013-05-13, 11:51
Yeah, and in some places, kids younger than ten are put to work. Heck, in some places, kids younger than ten are put to work as child prostitutes.

I'm not saying it was that bad. But it still wasn't the kind of scene I want to see in my entertainment. Especially considering how... forced it was.

Pinion brings Ledo to a restaurant - fair enough. It's a restaurant with a show, but instead of trying to put Ledo in an even better mood by enjoying the show, the focus is entirely on the food and Pinion's proposal - for Ledo. We are treated to the dance. And coincidentally instead of random dancers, the ones on stage are Amy and her friends (don't they have jobs to do?).
it's a festival, nobody is supossed to be home so they would waste their time doing their regular courier jobs, making some extra money working as dancers makes more sense.

Going off of this a little bit.

I wonder why was Amy and her two other friends the only dancers anyway? This type of festival usually have way more dancers and I'm sure there are a lot girls on Gargantia that were around Amy and co ages who could participate.
mayeb the other dancers are dancing in other places ? the festivla should be bigger than a single tavern anyway; and it is also very likely that pinion went to that specific dance to ship red and nadia(?).

Iron Maw
2013-05-13, 12:07
Betting on Fanservice and how athletic they are. They also seemed to volunteer for it and with their asking Amy about why she wasn't changed yet makes it seem like they've been doing it like every year for awhile.


I get that, by why only them?

mayeb the other dancers are dancing in other places ? the festivla should be bigger than a single tavern anyway; and it is also very likely that pinion went to that specific dance to ship red and nadia(?).

Guess I could buy that.

Jan-Poo
2013-05-13, 12:12
I get that, by why only them?

That's quite typical of anime to use the least minimum amount of characters to avoid the bother of creating new ones.

Yeah of course that's certainly not something praiseworthy but nothing to be surprised about either.

I guess that another reason is that fanservice works better if it's about characters that the spectators already know and cherish. By the way I don't think that Melty and Saya have any other purpose in this story. At any rate they needed Amy to be there else Ledo couldn't ask for more Amy dance later.

Destined_Fate
2013-05-13, 12:28
Yes. Ledo seeing Amy's dancing is very important...

...For the plot, I mean.

I get that, by why only them?



Guess I could buy that.

Because they're characters we know and they make sense with how active and athletic they are? It also seems to be a routine with the two girls supporting Amy whose the lead dancer.

ahelo
2013-05-13, 12:39
I would say the three girls dancing in the festival really was just plain fanservice and slightly distasteful but it does work in sort of showing how Ledo is getting distracted while talking with Bellows about salvaging. Ledo realizing his sexual desires is also part of the culture change coming in to Gargantia.

Now the private dance with Amy on the other hand is definitely important. That, even more so, showed how Ledo is changing since the first episode. There was tension there (+ the whole lightning scene with Ledo covering Amy) that wasn't in the first five episodes.

Kirarakim
2013-05-13, 13:01
By the way I don't think that Melty and Saya have any other purpose in this story.

Yes this is another huge problem of mine.

Don't get me wrong I am not happy about Amy being sexualized either but at least she is a character beyond that.

What have Melty and Saya done besides present fanservice for the viewer & tease Amy a bit?

Haak
2013-05-13, 13:15
ANN (http://www.animenewsnetwork.co.uk/encyclopedia/people.php?id=4069)
Shigeyasu YAMAUCHI
Staff in:
Gargantia on the Verdurous Planet (TV) : Storyboard (ep 6), Episode Director (ep 6)

Totally knew it.

SeijiSensei
2013-05-13, 13:18
That's quite typical of anime to use the least minimum amount of characters to avoid the bother of creating new ones.

They didn't seem to have a problem creating the Pirate Queen's harem. They could have drawn three anonymous adult dancers. They chose not to.

Jan-Poo
2013-05-13, 13:32
They didn't seem to have a problem creating the Pirate Queen's harem. They could have drawn three anonymous adult dancers. They chose not to.

Those have a few lines and I think they will return.

kakakka
2013-05-13, 14:31
Yes this is another huge problem of mine.

Don't get me wrong I am not happy about Amy being sexualized either but at least she is a character beyond that.

What have Melty and Saya done besides present fanservice for the viewer & tease Amy a bit?

So it begins. We start scrapping off the bottom of the can then. I mean com'on, those girls are obvious eye candies from the start. If they ended up being relevant, fine, but making a big deal out of it if they are eventually going to be?

Destined_Fate
2013-05-13, 14:33
Those have a few lines and I think they will return.

Indeed. When they blasted away like Team Rocket I always had a feeling that they would return eventually/

Grey
2013-05-13, 14:34
What have Melty and Saya done besides present fanservice for the viewer & tease Amy a bit?Yeah...they're a little boring in their usage. Which is a shame, because I like their cheeriness. I can only listen to Melty and Saya talk about guys so many times. :heh: At least use them to talk about space, Chamber, Bellows, other fleets, or something.

Destined_Fate
2013-05-13, 14:37
Well they are her friends and they did go racing together and stuff.

SeijiSensei
2013-05-13, 14:38
I can only listen to Melty and Saya talk about guys so many times. :heh:

Or needlessly worry about their weights.

Kirarakim
2013-05-13, 14:47
So it begins. We start scrapping off the bottom of the can then. I mean com'on, those girls are obvious eye candies from the start. If they ended up being relevant, fine, but making a big deal out of it if they are eventually going to be?

I am not saying they need to be relevant or major characters. But when their major purpose is "fanservice" yeah sorry but I don't see this as a positive way to write female characters.

Reckoner
2013-05-13, 14:48
The fanservice, per se, isn't what I think is disappointing some people here.

The fanservice in this episode, and in this anime, would indeed be mild if this was, say, your standard modern LN adaptation or your standard harem romcom.

But that's generally not what people look for in a Gen Urobuchi-wrote show or in a mecha show. I honestly am a bit disappointed that world building in this show has focused pretty heavily on mundane, slice of life-stuff while grander sci-fi/space fantasy lore has been almost nowhere to be seen since Episode 1 (this undersea exploration with Bellows is frankly well overdue).

With all due respect, I don't think this is very correct to say whatsoever. Gen's reputation precedes him, but Gen explicitly made clear his intentions in this show. Furthermore, mecha is such a varied concept that can manifest itself in just so many ways.

It's one thing for Gen to shift from his typical dark style to a relatively lighter one. But even then, it's a bit surprising that this work has been so light and fluffy this episode and the one before it; it's like going from one extreme to the other. If you had told me a few months ago that Gargantia would be, by far, the most light and fluffy and fanservice-driven of the three Spring 2013 mecha shows, I would have found that hard to believe. Yet here we are, and it is indeed the case right now.

The problem with this notion is that the more light and fluffy moments as you put it are the very core of the show. Gen explcitely stated that this show is about the time of your life when you enter soceity and that sense of wandering that comes with it. All this stuff about Ledo trying to figure out what to do with his life on Gargantia is the most important aspect of the entire show. Not to downplay everything else, but if people were looking for other things, they're ignoring the director/writer's intentions in this show.

Of course, one must also acknowledge that even though Gen is the head script writer, he doesn't write every episode. So while he of course provides much oversight, it's easy to see where some aspects of these episodes (the dialogue mostly) has nothing to do with his writing style. One striknig scene would be when the girls were discussing their weight last episode, I could never imagine Gen writing such a distasteful a line of dialogue like that ever :heh: (and in fact he didn't).

Destined_Fate
2013-05-13, 14:51
Or needlessly worry about their weights.

Weight is an important thing for many teenage girls you know. Just like muscles are very important many teenage boys.

kakakka
2013-05-13, 15:00
I am not saying they need to be relevant or major characters. But when their major purpose is "fanservice" yeah sorry but I don't see this as a positive way to write female characters.

There are characters that are made just to be there. I think it's normal for a medium such as an anime to have such (I have seen parodies make fun of these).

In my stance, when writing is concerned, if that is done to main characters (or sub-mains), then I will agree with you. If they are just background characters, I might as well just ignore it. It's obvious the writers are not going to make some complex things about them (just going to give them paper thin characterization, with closeness to stereotypes, cliches, etc.).

Triple_R
2013-05-13, 15:23
With all due respect, I don't think this is very correct to say whatsoever.

It is largely, if not completely, correct. People tend to expect actual mecha action in a mecha show. We've now had 3 consecutive episodes (in an one cour show no less) without any actual mecha action. This would probably go over better if the substitute for this was extensive world-building that made the Gargantian universe seem more interesting and fascinating. But instead we're getting a fair bit of material that could easily be found in any run of the mill LN adaptation or harem romcom.


Gen's reputation precedes him, but Gen explicitly made clear his intentions in this show.

Those intentions are not incompatible with a show that would have more mecha action and a wider range of world-building and mecha action than what we've seen here in Gargantia, imo.


The problem with this notion is that the more light and fluffy moments as you put it are the very core of the show. Gen explcitely stated that this show is about the time of your life when you enter soceity and that sense of wandering that comes with it.

That doesn't mean it has to be light and fluffy. "Entering society" can also be a dramatic experience for some people.


I'm not saying this is a bad episode. I found it a reasonably pleasant watch. But it's the same sort of viewing experience I could get from countless anime shows. I was hoping for something a bit more distinct given Gen's track record.

kivredia
2013-05-13, 15:42
Guess there are different reasons why people disliked the fan service. Personally I don't even get why suddenly there are shots of characters in a conversation and the part which you see of their bodies are their breasts/bottom(10:30ish Bellows and Pinion talking ...). Then the camera angle on the girls dancing which makes it blatantly in your face fan service.

But most of all, why are the dancers 15/14 year old girls and not women/young women like Bellows/Ridgett or someone else in that age range. Then you could spin the story that Amy is also learning to dance(tradition on Gargantia or w/e) and the scene with Ledo later could still happen and imho would be even "better" because its more personal.

I guess pointless fanservice is easier though.

Reckoner
2013-05-13, 15:43
It is largely, if not completely, correct. People tend to expect actual mecha action in a mecha show. We've now had 3 consecutive episodes (in an one cour show no less) without any actual mecha action. This would probably go over better if the substitute for this was extensive world-building that made the Gargantian universe seem more interesting and fascinating. But instead we're getting a fair bit of material that could easily be found in any run of the mill LN adaptation or harem romcom.

Point me out a LN that legitimately explores the concepts and themes of Gargantia then. I'll tell you that you'll probably have a hard time doing so.

My point anyhow is that trying to pigeon hole mecha is a bit silly considering the wide variety of mecha titles out there. Mecha can literally take any form of storytelling and Gargantia is but another example of this.

Those intentions are not incompatible with a show that would have more mecha action and a wider range of world-building and mecha action than what we've seen here in Gargantia, imo.

Wider range of world-building? Isn't that what these past episodes have been about? Exploring the Gargantia, as it appears like a microcosm of society?

Mecha have been involved in the story nearly every episode, including this one. Mecha don't only have to be used for blowing stuff up.

That doesn't mean it has to be light and fluffy. "Entering society" can also be a dramatic experience for some people.

Has it not been distressing to Ledo?

Kanon
2013-05-13, 16:48
Am I the only one who is getting almost exactly what he expected/wanted out of this show? They never lied to us about what it was going to be. I understand Urobuchi's reputation precedes him (which imo is bad thing) but that doesn't mean he has any obligation to make the same type of shows forever. If he doesn't wish to be stuck in this mold, he doesn't have to. A writer should not have to surrender his creative freedom to please his fans. I've enjoyed all of his works, but frankly, I was getting a bit tired of them lately, so I'm very pleased he's decided to go for something different this time. I like it when a writer gets out of his comfort zone and decides to explore new horizons. Makes it easier for them to surprise their audience.

Now, I completely understand why his fans would be disappointed and they have every right to be, but I wish they wouldn't compare it to his old works and would simply enjoy it (or not) for what it is. Gargantia should be judged on its own merits.

Kirarakim
2013-05-13, 16:51
I don't want another dark Urobuchi show but I do want less pandering and more of the great writing we saw in episodes 1, 2, and 4.

Terrestrial Dream
2013-05-13, 17:04
That doesn't mean it has to be light and fluffy. "Entering society" can also be a dramatic experience for some people.
What would you want instead? I personally feel the way Ledo is being integrated into the society is very reasonable and well done.
Am I the only one who is getting almost exactly what he expected/wanted out of this show? They never lied to us about what it was going to be. I understand Urobuchi's reputation precedes him (which imo is bad thing) but that doesn't mean he has any obligation to make the same type of shows forever. If he doesn't wish to be stuck in this mold, he doesn't have to. A writer should not have to surrender his creative freedom to please his fans. I've enjoyed all of his works, but frankly, I was getting a bit tired of them lately, so I'm very pleased he's decided to go for something different this time. I like it when a writer gets out of his comfort zone and decides to explore new horizons. Makes it easier for them to surprise their audience.

Now, I completely understand why his fans would be disappointed and they have every right to be, but I wish they wouldn't compare it to his old works and would simply enjoy it (or not) for what it is. Gargantia should be judged on its own merits. I am satisfied with the show so far. Ledo and his integration to Gargantia has been enjoyable to watch. And from the initial I didn't really expect things to get dark or at dark from early on.

I really do feel that last two episodes have been justified, don't really need to rush into anything right now. I think if those two episodes were one, the pace might be off as well as the progression of the story.

jeroz
2013-05-13, 17:16
Btw guys, Fumoffu is a horrible show. /s

DuelGundam2099
2013-05-13, 17:23
I want pirates again.

SeijiSensei
2013-05-13, 18:52
Weight is an important thing for many teenage girls you know. Just like muscles are very important many teenage boys.

Young Japanese women of all weight categories tend to overestimate their body image.... Studies summarized in Table 4 show that 41% and 68% of Japanese female adolescents aged 613 years and 1618 years, respectively, had negative body image perception and high desire for thinness, regardless of their actual weight. [M]any Japanese girls had weight and shape concerns. Similarly, as this trend of overestimation has grown in most female age groups since 1998, it is considered that body image perception amongst Japanese females has become distorted.

http://www.brown.uk.com/eatingdisorders/chisua.pdf

Eating disorders are one of the most common and most difficult and life-threatening psychological problems that adolescent girls face. Reinforcing the image that "thin is in" and "that's what boys want" as the producers do here only worsens this problem.

ThereminVox
2013-05-13, 19:10
That doesn't mean it has to be light and fluffy. "Entering society" can also be a dramatic experience for some people.

I'm not sure that everything about it is light and fluffy, though. I know that the Gargantian fleet's real joie de vivre culture is portrayed as almost ridiculously like a paradise, but that's mostly to contrast it with the place that Ledo comes from. In addition, his adaptation to their world hasn't been without hiccups, and he knows he can't stay forever. It's not likely that Gargantia will be able to "save" Ledo if his people come calling, but what they've already done is given him perspective, and shown him possibilities that he never would have imagined otherwise.

While I'd like to include a caveat stating that I'm hoping to see some conflict revolving around the greater universe that's been created before the end of the show, I'm otherwise of the mind that Ledo's growth is the story, and that it's being handled rather exceptionally.

Cloudedmind
2013-05-13, 19:55
http://www.brown.uk.com/eatingdisorders/chisua.pdf

Eating disorders are one of the most common and most difficult and life-threatening psychological problems that adolescent girls face. Reinforcing the image that "thin is in" and "that's what boys want" as the producers do here only worsens this problem.

I don't think the producers are necessarily trying to do that. I think they were just trying to portray them as "normal" teenage girls. And yes back when I was a teen I heard these types of conversations among other fellow teenage girls often. Heck I still hear these conversations now among adult women. Whether we like it or not body image is a big part of many cultures.

Birdway
2013-05-13, 20:17
And that actually makes me thankful that we have a 16-year-old space soldier as protagonist, not 30 or older :heh::uhoh:.
Setsuna F. Seiei never reached it... :heh:

Mor's dance should've been like Amy's dance.

Different staff and budget.

Destined_Fate
2013-05-13, 20:42
http://www.brown.uk.com/eatingdisorders/chisua.pdf

Eating disorders are one of the most common and most difficult and life-threatening psychological problems that adolescent girls face. Reinforcing the image that "thin is in" and "that's what boys want" as the producers do here only worsens this problem.

They're merely having them act as teenagers. If anything what you linked and quoted reinforces my point that such things "are" important to teenagers. Thus I see no issue with them talking to each other about weight as they are teenagers. At the very least they aren't starving themselves and Amy seems to be fine with her body as is. Clearly Ledo agrees as well.

Obelisk ze Tormentor
2013-05-13, 21:14
Setsuna F. Seiei never reached it... :heh:I thought he has a hard-on whenever he looks at his Gundam :D.

taofd
2013-05-13, 21:32
You guys seem to be missing the point of the majority of criticisms. Sure the directors are in their full rights to create whatever show they want. However, there are natural consequences for falsely setting expectations (or poorly setting them).

Interviews w/ the Gargantia Directors have revealed that Urobuchi has written the setting for both the first and last episode of Gargantia. This implies that Urobuchi was responsible for the overall setting of the tone and setting expectations for the entirety of the series. The fact that the series has taken a complete 180 is not only disappointing, it's also bad business and setting the entire show up for failure.

I won't write off the show just yet, but I will assert that they've made a serious mistake that they should've seen coming. When you entice a certain demographic of users, you are setting expectations for the type of series you are creating. We can rationalize all we want in this thread, whether or not this was expected or they are doing the right thing, but numbers and the amount of criticism will surely tell over time.

I'll make a prediction -- If the next episode heralds the return of the Hideaze, the studio may yet salvage their current situation.

However, if it turns out to be a whale squid (or whatever they called it) and the rest of the episodes until episode 13 turn out to be slice-of-life/fan-service, it will be a tremendous waste of talent, and I suspect the show's ratings will reflect their failure to evaluate their consumer-base.

Methuselah
2013-05-13, 22:12
You guys seem to be missing the point of the majority of criticisms. Sure the directors are in their full rights to create whatever show they want. However, there are natural consequences for falsely setting expectations (or poorly setting them).

Interviews w/ the Gargantia Directors have revealed that Urobuchi has written the setting for both the first and last episode of Gargantia. This implies that Urobuchi was responsible for the overall setting of the tone and setting expectations for the entirety of the series. The fact that the series has taken a complete 180 is not only disappointing, it's also bad business and setting the entire show up for failure.

I won't write off the show just yet, but I will assert that they've made a serious mistake that they should've seen coming. When you entice a certain demographic of users, you are setting expectations for the type of series you are creating. We can rationalize all we want in this thread, whether or not this was expected or they are doing the right thing, but numbers and the amount of criticism will surely tell over time.

I'll make a prediction -- If the next episode heralds the return of the Hideaze, the studio may yet salvage their current situation.

However, if it turns out to be a whale squid (or whatever they called it) and the rest of the episodes until episode 13 turn out to be slice-of-life/fan-service, it will be a tremendous waste of talent, and I suspect the show's ratings will reflect their failure to evaluate their consumer-base.

Same goes towards Muv Luv Total Eclipse. First 2 episodes was to portray this wide setting (Science fiction, action, pychological trauma etc) then the rest of it is pure fanservice and harem.... WTF?

cf18
2013-05-13, 22:16
My theory on the dance / Whalesquid / Hideauze:

Hideauze were sea creatures that came from Earth, evolved and flown into space millions of years ago, when the planet was frozen in another ice cycle.

After most human left the ice earth and earth become the water world we see, these giant squid become the biggest creature of the ocean. The people of Gargantia celebrate or worship them, like how some of our cultures treat elephants and lions. Notice how the dance dress matching up with the giant squid - the head fins, the eyes and the tails.

andyjay729
2013-05-13, 22:31
My theory on the dance / Whalesquid / Hideauze:

Hideauze were sea creatures that came from Earth, evolved and flown into space millions of years ago, when the planet was frozen in another ice cycle.

After most human left the ice earth and earth become the water world we see, these giant squid become the biggest creature of the ocean. The people of Gargantia celebrate or worship them, like how some of our cultures treat elephants and lions. Notice how the dance dress matching up with the giant squid - the head fins, the eyes and the tails.

I seriously hope you're right with that one. Then there'd actually be some context for the dancing. Not that I didn't enjoy that scene, heh, but that would just be too good a plot twist to miss. (And it'll create some juicy tension between Ledo and Gargantia.)

I'll admit that I wish they could've gotten to the meat of the story sooner (and I wish we could've learned more about Amy's background), but now things will probably get much more interesting. As a lot of people were saying, Gen would probably want to get us when our defenses are really down.

ReddyRedWolf
2013-05-13, 22:37
My theory on the dance / Whalesquid / Hideauze:

Hideauze were sea creatures that came from Earth, evolved and flown into space millions of years ago, when the planet was frozen in another ice cycle.

After most human left the ice earth and earth become the water world we see, these giant squid become the biggest creature of the ocean. The people of Gargantia celebrate or worship them, like how some of our cultures treat elephants and lions. Notice how the dance dress matching up with the giant squid - the head fins, the eyes and the tails.

It is only been couple of thousand years given Earthers still remember prior to, during and after the ice age.

Now I a suspicion with what Chamber calls nano-machines are actually terraforming technology.

That terraforming technology saved Earth.

The Alliance being space North Korea keeps its troops and citizens in the dark about the origins of the Hideauze. It is either a weapon the Avalon made to dominate all other fleets that went out of control or they are interfering with the terraforming activities of other human groups.

Iron Maw
2013-05-14, 00:42
That's quite typical of anime to use the least minimum amount of characters to avoid the bother of creating new ones.

Yeah of course that's certainly not something praiseworthy but nothing to be surprised about either.

I guess that another reason is that fanservice works better if it's about characters that the spectators already know and cherish. By the way I don't think that Melty and Saya have any other purpose in this story. At any rate they needed Amy to be there else Ledo couldn't ask for more Amy dance later.

Yeah, but it wouldn't have kill them to add some random background dancers the for sake of legitimacy. I don't have a problem with Amy and co being on stage so much as show playing them off as the only dancers/girls on the ship.

Agreed on Melty and Saya, but the show still has 6 or so episodes to give them some development.

Am I the only one who is getting almost exactly what he expected/wanted out of this show? They never lied to us about what it was going to be. I understand Urobuchi's reputation precedes him (which imo is bad thing) but that doesn't mean he has any obligation to make the same type of shows forever. If he doesn't wish to be stuck in this mold, he doesn't have to. A writer should not have to surrender his creative freedom to please his fans. I've enjoyed all of his works, but frankly, I was getting a bit tired of them lately, so I'm very pleased he's decided to go for something different this time. I like it when a writer gets out of his comfort zone and decides to explore new horizons. Makes it easier for them to surprise their audience.

Now, I completely understand why his fans would be disappointed and they have every right to be, but I wish they wouldn't compare it to his old works and would simply enjoy it (or not) for what it is. Gargantia should be judged on its own merits.

Kirarakim's response below is more or less how I feel.

I don't want another dark Urobuchi show but I do want less pandering and more of the great writing we saw in episodes 1, 2, and 4.

This week's episode essentially accomplished what 5 tried to do only much better, even fanservice had point despite arguably being more noticeable.

Triple_R
2013-05-14, 00:52
Point me out a LN that legitimately explores the concepts and themes of Gargantia then.

That has nothing to do with the point I made to you there. My issue is not with what Gargantia is doing, but how it's doing it. Like I said, the actual content of this episode and the last is very run-of-the-mill stuff for the anime world. I find that disappointing given how distinctive and "standout" Gen's anime works tend to be. And by that, I don't mean "dark", I mean that they offer something significantly different than your standard anime fare.

Gargantia was similarly doing that for awhile, but it hasn't done that this episode or the last. The sort of content we saw in this episode and the last wouldn't seem out of place in almost any average anime show. But that's not something I would say about the vast majority of Madoka Magica, Psycho-Pass, and Fate Zero episodes.


My point anyhow is that trying to pigeon hole mecha is a bit silly considering the wide variety of mecha titles out there. Mecha can literally take any form of storytelling and Gargantia is but another example of this.

The vast majority of the mecha shows I've seen usually don't take more than an episode or two (at a time) away from mecha action.


Wider range of world-building? Isn't that what these past episodes have been about?

Not really. The Gargantia is not the whole of humanity on the Earth of this show, as we learned in the first few episodes. Instead of giving us another lighthearted "Ledo tries to find a job" with lots of fanservice on the side, why not give us an episode where the Gargantia runs into another fleet of ships? Why not show some diplomacy, or conflict? Why not delve more deeply into this world as a whole, and not just the Gargantia part of it?


Has it not been distressing to Ledo?

Even if so, he's the only one distressed. It doesn't make for the most compelling of character drama, imo.


I don't want another dark Urobuchi show but I do want less pandering and more of the great writing we saw in episodes 1, 2, and 4.

Agreed.


What would you want instead?

I covered this above. But aside from that, I agree with DuelGundam2009 - A surprise pirate raid on the ship itself forcing Ledo into hand-to-hand combat might have been very fun and interesting.


I personally feel the way Ledo is being integrated into the society is very reasonable and well done.

It's not bad, per se, but this episode and the last has felt like generic anime to me. That's simply not what I wanted from Gargantia.


I'm not sure that everything about it is light and fluffy, though. I know that the Gargantian fleet's real joie de vivre culture is portrayed as almost ridiculously like a paradise, but that's mostly to contrast it with the place that Ledo comes from.

The problem with this is that we know precious little about the place that Ledo comes from. And... here's yet another possibility that I'd find more interesting than what we actually did get in this episode. Why not have part or all of an episode that's a flashback to Ledo's days in the Galactic Alliance prior to the Episode 1 battle? Wouldn't that aid the contrast that you're mentioning here?

ReddyRedWolf
2013-05-14, 01:40
Triple R did you watch Sora no Woto? This is a post-apocalypse world building show.

Only we got a curbstomp mech at the beginning instead of the end.

Anh_Minh
2013-05-14, 02:03
Am I the only one who is getting almost exactly what he expected/wanted out of this show? They never lied to us about what it was going to be. I understand Urobuchi's reputation precedes him (which imo is bad thing) but that doesn't mean he has any obligation to make the same type of shows forever. If he doesn't wish to be stuck in this mold, he doesn't have to. A writer should not have to surrender his creative freedom to please his fans. I've enjoyed all of his works, but frankly, I was getting a bit tired of them lately, so I'm very pleased he's decided to go for something different this time. I like it when a writer gets out of his comfort zone and decides to explore new horizons. Makes it easier for them to surprise their audience.

Now, I completely understand why his fans would be disappointed and they have every right to be, but I wish they wouldn't compare it to his old works and would simply enjoy it (or not) for what it is. Gargantia should be judged on its own merits.

I tend to judge anime by its cover, so I haven't been disappointed. I didn't even know Urobuchi was involved until I read the thread and people kept name dropping him every other post. Frankly, I don't care. I find the obsession with him annoying more than anything, but it's not the show's fault. I'll take things as they come.

jeroz
2013-05-14, 02:29
We know little by little how Ledo's world works by his reactions to things that even us finds to be "normal". His confusion to monetary system, concept of family, failure to enjoy life, narrow minded view into what a conversation should be about, all showed us the upbringing he had, and the world as a whole.

People often forget that while Gargantia might be normal for us, it is a completely different world to Ledo. The more he explores this peaceful world the better. We already had both the conflict in the form of pirate, and alliance in the form of new ship addition. Unnecessary drama and conflict will only put Ledo at ease since it will be another "us vs them" scenario that he knows best. The more peaceful it is, the more confronted he is.

Don't blame on the studio when you didn't even do any pre-reading. Watch the OP, watch the Ed, listen to the BGM. Those calling for grim dark action are just fooling themselves.

Reckoner
2013-05-14, 02:51
That has nothing to do with the point I made to you there. My issue is not with what Gargantia is doing, but how it's doing it. Like I said, the actual content of this episode and the last is very run-of-the-mill stuff for the anime world. I find that disappointing given how distinctive and "standout" Gen's anime works tend to be. And by that, I don't mean "dark", I mean that they offer something significantly different than your standard anime fare.

Gargantia was similarly doing that for awhile, but it hasn't done that this episode or the last. The sort of content we saw in this episode and the last wouldn't seem out of place in almost any average anime show. But that's not something I would say about the vast majority of Madoka Magica, Psycho-Pass, and Fate Zero episodes.

Am I not seeing a contradiction here? First you tell me it's not what the show is doing, but HOW, then you're giving complaints about the CONTENT. Is the content not the WHAT?

What distinguishes this anime for me in any case is its themes and how it chooses to explore them. I can't really think of too many anime like this honestly, and that's why I asked for examples if you're going to claim that the CONTENT is run of the mill.

The vast majority of the mecha shows I've seen usually don't take more than an episode or two (at a time) away from mecha action.

There's no reason why this series has to have action at least every other episode, and given that there are plenty of mecha that don't as well, it's not exactly setting a precedent for anything here. Again, given Gen's statements before this show aired, I feel the show has developed quite naturally around the stated themes.

Not really. The Gargantia is not the whole of humanity on the Earth of this show, as we learned in the first few episodes. Instead of giving us another lighthearted "Ledo tries to find a job" with lots of fanservice on the side, why not give us an episode where the Gargantia runs into another fleet of ships? Why not show some diplomacy, or conflict? Why not delve more deeply into this world as a whole, and not just the Gargantia part of it?

What does this have to do with Gen's themes? That would be a different story.

Even if so, he's the only one distressed. It doesn't make for the most compelling of character drama, imo.

For a 1 cour show, they can hardly afford to branch off into developing too many characters extensively. Of course it makes sense that Ledo is the core of the show because he's the fish out of water here, not the Gargantia citizens.

In any case, I find Ledo's story more than compelling personally.

Triple_R
2013-05-14, 03:17
Triple R did you watch Sora no Woto?

What does that have to do with anything? Sora no Woto is very different from this show in numerous ways. I wouldn't even call Sora no Woto a mecha show, for one thing.


We know little by little how Ledo's world works by his reactions to things that even us finds to be "normal". His confusion to monetary system, concept of family, failure to enjoy life, narrow minded view into what a conversation should be about, all showed us the upbringing he had, and the world as a whole.

You don't need three whole episodes to effectively convey this. As I pointed out in detail in my last post on this thread, this latest episode could have easily accomplished more than what it did.


People often forget that while Gargantia might be normal for us,

Actually, it's not. There's nothing normal about a world seemingly covered entirely in water. Naturally, I would like to learn more about that world as a whole. Not just Gargantia.


The more he explores this peaceful world the better.

I agree. The more he explores this world the better. This world is more than just Gargantia.


We already had both the conflict in the form of pirate, and alliance in the form of new ship addition. Unnecessary drama and conflict will only put Ledo at ease since it will be another "us vs them" scenario that he knows best.

That's not necessarily correct. This show has already shown how drama and conflict can distress Ledo, and force him to reconsider his typical approach to conflict.


Those calling for grim dark action are just fooling themselves.

Nobody is saying it has to be "grim dark".


Am I not seeing a contradiction here?

No, you're not. "How" is obviously part of the "Content". The content of a show is not just the concepts and themes that it's exploring, but also how it explores it.

You can take a somewhat unusual concept/theme, but explore it in a very conventional and generic way. Unless you're going to argue that beach episodes, light fanservice, and lighthearted slice of life content is unusual to anime...


There's no reason why this series has to have action at least every other episode, and given that there are plenty of mecha that don't as well,

Really? You really sure about that? Because I have my doubts. If you're convinced that its commonplace to see a lot of slice of life content in mecha anime, then please list some such mecha anime.


For a 1 cour show, they can hardly afford to branch off into developing too many characters extensively.

I know plenty of 1 cour shows that effectively developed several characters. AnoHana, True Tears, ef, Sola, Madoka Magica, Tari Tari, Kamisama Dolls, Kamisama no Memochou, Usagi Drop, Wandering Son, and the list can go on and on.

It's a pretty sad commentary on Gargantia if the only non-static character in this show is Ledo.

ThereminVox
2013-05-14, 04:28
This week's episode essentially accomplished what 5 tried to do only much better, even fanservice had point despite arguably being more noticeable.

Yeah, weird, huh? I try not to tell people how to do their jobs, but it seems to me in the wake of episode 6 that they really could have skipped #5 and released it later as an OVA. Sort of like "Hey, remember all of that stuff about Ledo looking for work? Here's the story of how all of that started, plus bonus fanservice!"

The problem with this is that we know precious little about the place that Ledo comes from. And... here's yet another possibility that I'd find more interesting than what we actually did get in this episode. Why not have part or all of an episode that's a flashback to Ledo's days in the Galactic Alliance prior to the Episode 1 battle? Wouldn't that aid the contrast that you're mentioning here?

In a way, it feels like we know almost as much as Ledo considering how little he ever concerned himself with the details. The battle at the start shows us most everything he's ever seen, and we can glean much of the rest of his understanding of his world from what he tells the Gargantians.

Having said that, sure, I'd kind of like to see more of the GA, specifically Avalon, even though the show seems to keep insisting that "no, you really wouldn't, it's kind of a depressing place." :heh:

As for the lack of mecha action, I've found most of Chamber's business to be pretty fun. I'd rather watch him try to grasp the finer points of fishing than beam-spamming an infinite army of nameless space-mollusks, though obviously I can only speak for myself on that subject.

jeroz
2013-05-14, 04:46
It's not about the new earth, it's about how Gargantia works. As the title suggests, this is about Gargantia. Like what I said earlier, there's no need for politics since everyone just comes and go. You wonder why there hasn't been much contact with other fleets? The most likely explanation is that it would be an odd occurrence in this setting. Those that help out each other would just form a fleet together. I doubt there will be "a governing body" or even a navy.

Not to mention Ledo already adapts the philosophy that the Gargantian follows. The only source of conflict only comes if there's an external 3rd party, which Gargantia has no idea how to deal with, that comes into the picture. If it's just any other conflicts on this New Earth, he will most likely just follow the protocols of how they works. I doubt we will see any new things here. Ledo is a soldier, he know how to follow orders, and since he know that his way is different from the usual way, he won't be as reckless again.

This is why the appearance of a possible Hideazu is interesting since he KNOW it's something that only he can deal with. Yes chances are that it's merely a red herring, but it will subsequently be a smoke and mirror for future developments.

While on the surface the plot is about him finding a job, it's more about Ledo further discovering the human side in him. He discovered love/lust in this episode, and the fact that he's fascinated by Amy's dance is already a massive change from episode one when he doesn't care about any form of entertainment at all.

ReddyRedWolf
2013-05-14, 04:54
What does that have to do with anything? Sora no Woto is very different from this show in numerous ways. I wouldn't even call Sora no Woto a mecha show, for one thing.


That is just the point like Sora no Woto Gargantia is not a action packed mecha show but a world building and character driven series.

Both are set in the future. Both have a mystery of how the world got to be this way. Both showcases the local culture. Both show the growth of the MC. Both have one advance mech that is OCP for those with primitive mechs.

Both have Hisako Kanemoto as the cheerful girl lead heroine.:heh:

orpheus2
2013-05-14, 05:52
Looks like we are to the getting to the point where things get worse. Let's see how these creatures are related to the enemies Ledo fought.

Libros
2013-05-14, 07:55
Real quick I'd just like to drop this here. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gargantia_on_the_Verdurous_Planet#Episode_list)(Ge n has only written the first episode of this anime so far, the link is my source)

eplipswich
2013-05-14, 08:18
Real quick I'd just like to drop this here. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gargantia_on_the_Verdurous_Planet#Episode_list)(Ge n has only written the first episode of this anime so far, the link is my source)

I would like to add that in that wiki, it is stated that Gen Urobuchi is in charge of the first and last episodes, but not in between. He also said that the feeling of the work of this anime will be different from the others he's been involved with. So don't expect any darkness from this anime (from the episodes that I've watched so far, I can certainly say that there's none of the darkness like his previous works). ~ ~

Also, if people are expecting this anime to be action-packed, let alone mecha, to be honest, well, don't. From the episodes that I've watched so far, it's starting to become clear that this anime is pretty much all about Gargantia. Also, Suisei no Gargantia is translated in English as Gargantia on the Verdurous Planet, or if literally translated, Gargantia on the Planet of Greenery. That title alone is enough to hint that this anime won't be a lot on the fighting, but more on character development and the setting/culture.

Triple_R
2013-05-14, 09:44
The first three episodes of an anime show (especially an anime original like this one) tend to set the tone and overall viewer expectations for what is to come later on. And the first three episodes of this anime show had loads of excellent mecha action. Episode 1 in particular had truly fantastic mecha action, a rarer treat in modern anime than the sort of content we've had in this episode and the last.

The first three episodes of this anime show also had plenty of suspense and intrigue to it.

And all of the above is why the Sora no Woto comparison is silly. Sora no Woto's first three episodes are wildly different from this show's first three episodes. For one thing, they had far less action in them than this anime's first three episodes had.


So based on the first three episodes of this show, it's perfectly reasonable for people to expect this show to continue to have plenty of mecha action, suspense, and intrigue to it. But instead we're getting light and fluffy slice of life content. It's good slice of life content, but for myself (and some others I suspect), it's like getting served up a clubhouse sandwich when you expected a rarer treat of a nice, juicy steak.

ReddyRedWolf
2013-05-14, 10:21
~snip

[citation needed]

With unrealistic expectations as that no wonder you don't like the tone of this show.

You focus on one factor (Mechs) instead of looking at the whole picture, which isn't even complete yet.

Kanon
2013-05-14, 10:28
Not really. The Gargantia is not the whole of humanity on the Earth of this show, as we learned in the first few episodes. Instead of giving us another lighthearted "Ledo tries to find a job" with lots of fanservice on the side, why not give us an episode where the Gargantia runs into another fleet of ships? Why not show some diplomacy, or conflict? Why not delve more deeply into this world as a whole, and not just the Gargantia part of it?

Because that's not the kind of story they want to tell. The title alone should make it clear the story is all about Gargantia and Ledo trying to find his place in it. The director himself has also plainly laid out what the theme of the series was. At this point you should more or less know what to expect.

So based on the first three episodes of this show, it's perfectly reasonable for people to expect this show to continue to have plenty of mecha action, suspense, and intrigue to it. But instead we're getting light and fluffy slice of life content. It's good slice of life content, but for myself (and some others I suspect), it's like getting served up a clubhouse sandwich when you expected a rarer treat of a nice, juicy steak.

We can't constantly have action and suspense given the setting. The world of Gargantia is mostly peaceful. We're only halfway through the series anyway, there's a good chance you'll get what you want by the end of it, maybe as soon as next episode. It's unrealistic to expect the entirety of the series to be like this though.

I don't see anything wrong with slice of life episodes, especially when they continue to explore the main theme of the series. These episodes are needed (not so much the last one in retrospect, since episode 6 did exactly the same thing it attempted to do except better) in order to develop Ledo. He's trying to get used to a peaceful life, throwing him into fights all the time would be counter-productive. Seeing how he copes with being on "stand-by" is just as important as seeing how he deals with enemies. Right now, we're exploring/discovering another facet of his personality, and I find it very interesting.

I personally think the storytelling has been top tier so far and I would never in a million years compare it to a LN adaptation, but that might be because I have a very bad opinion of them. It's fine if you don't feel the same way, but it seems to me your disappointment with the series is the result of seriously misplaced expectations. This "light and fluff" episode was perfectly fitting for this series.

Somnus
2013-05-14, 10:30
With so many divergent viewpoints for so many reasons (and a fair share I disagree with), being this late in the thread I'm just going to avoid it altogether! However, my own viewpoint on Gargantia pretty much coincides with Kanon's:

Am I the only one who is getting almost exactly what he expected/wanted out of this show? They never lied to us about what it was going to be. I understand Urobuchi's reputation precedes him (which imo is bad thing) but that doesn't mean he has any obligation to make the same type of shows forever. If he doesn't wish to be stuck in this mold, he doesn't have to. A writer should not have to surrender his creative freedom to please his fans. I've enjoyed all of his works, but frankly, I was getting a bit tired of them lately, so I'm very pleased he's decided to go for something different this time. I like it when a writer gets out of his comfort zone and decides to explore new horizons. Makes it easier for them to surprise their audience.

Now, I completely understand why his fans would be disappointed and they have every right to be, but I wish they wouldn't compare it to his old works and would simply enjoy it (or not) for what it is. Gargantia should be judged on its own merits.

HandofFate
2013-05-14, 11:12
Really liked the end with Ledo and Chamber going into full battle mode again.
Its like "dundundun" *SRW battle music starts*

Also the dancing was great too.
Melty my favorite.

Triple_R
2013-05-14, 11:18
With unrealistic expectations as that no wonder you don't like the tone of this show.

My expectations weren't unrealistic at all. They were perfectly reasonable given what the show itself was like for the first three episodes. Let me be clear - I'm not saying that I expected every episode to be like the first three. But I did expect most of them to be like that, which is why Episodes 4 through 6 being entirely different from Episodes 1 through 3 is a bit displeasing to me.

Also, I'm not focusing on just one factor. Aside from mecha, I also focused on world-building, drama, suspense, intrigue. That's certainly more than just one factor.



Because that's not the kind of story they want to tell. The title alone...

The anime world is absolutely loaded with nonsensical titles. Besides, titles alone often indicate little. Julius Caesar is not the main character of Shakespeare's "Julius Caesar". Similarly, just because this anime has "Gargantia" in the title doesn't mean Gargantia should be the only major setting in the show, or that people should expect it to be.


We can't constantly have action and suspense given the setting.

I'm not asking for that constantly. A lighthearted slice of life episode or two is fine. But 3 in a row in an one cour show that started like this one did really is a bit much.


These episodes are needed (not so much the last one in retrospect, since episode 6 did exactly the same thing it attempted to do except better)

That's exactly my point. We didn't need this episode and the last one. The anime could have been using its time better, imo.


I personally think the storytelling has been top tier...

I don't. It's becoming needlessly repetitive and very limited in scope. It's not developing its world or characters anywhere near as much as it could, or as much as I would like to see.

ThereminVox
2013-05-14, 11:34
I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting more suspense out of the episodes, but at this still-early stage, there's really not much they could do without introducing an out-of-left-field kind of enemy, because the potential conflicts that have been set up all involve such a vast gap in power that no extensive combat is really possible. Let's run down the list of obvious conflicts:

Gargantia (w/ Ledo) vs. Pirates/Another fleet
Gargantia vs. The Galactic Alliance (w/ countless Machine Calibers and orbital bombardment capability)
Gargantia vs. Hideauze (who turned away the largest fleet GA could summon in a few minutes)

I'm not exactly a odds-maker, but I'm guessing the underdog in each situation won't pull too many bets, nor do I imagine an honest-to-God battle would take more than a moment to resolve.

These are all good enemies, but there are only so many episodes you could dedicate to tense, small-scale engagements before you start wondering why the stronger force doesn't just turn the other side to dust, and be done with it.

I'm sure we'll get some real existential danger before all is said and done, but until then, I'm content to let the flotilla and its impossibly idealistic people worm their way into my heart with world-building so that I can properly sh*t myself when something comes along to crush them all.

Folenfant
2013-05-14, 11:57
A while back I tried to warn people about expecting non-stop or even occasional "grimdark" and serious situations just cause Gen Urobuchi was theoretically the writer of the show (he is as stated numerous times not the individual writer for all episodes) and even though he himself stated that he was trying to do something a little more light-hearted with his concept this time around. I really am not sure it's fair to blame the show for what IMO were obviously misplaced expectations and assumptions. Possibly of another Madoka Magica I don't know, but I can't really understand how people can be too surprised about the way the show has gone.

That being said there is something to say for how the narrative has slowed down and not really felt like it's covered as many points as it probably could given the time it's used already (this is the half-way point of the TV broadcast), but of course there are some people that absolutely adore this kind of pace where there's maybe one key event per episode and everything else is what amounts to a "daily life" segment. Personally I'm not one of them, but I do hope that the apparent appearance of the Hideauze means finally moving into new territory for the story. I think Ledo as a fish out of water learning the ways of Gargantia's daily life and culture have long since been firmly established that we don't need to spend much more time on it right now.

Reckoner
2013-05-14, 15:13
No, you're not. "How" is obviously part of the "Content". The content of a show is not just the concepts and themes that it's exploring, but also how it explores it.

You can take a somewhat unusual concept/theme, but explore it in a very conventional and generic way. Unless you're going to argue that beach episodes, light fanservice, and lighthearted slice of life content is unusual to anime...

I've already expressed that last episode might as well have not existed, but it wasn't because it lacked mecha action and more visceral drama; it was simply mediocre and didn't aim for anything other than some simple low brow comedy (Aside from the beginning portions of it). This episode was not the same however.

Really? You really sure about that? Because I have my doubts. If you're convinced that its commonplace to see a lot of slice of life content in mecha anime, then please list some such mecha anime.

Patlabor, FMP, Eureka 7, certain Votoms series, parts of several macross series to name a few off the top of my head.

I know plenty of 1 cour shows that effectively developed several characters. AnoHana, True Tears, ef, Sola, Madoka Magica, Tari Tari, Kamisama Dolls, Kamisama no Memochou, Usagi Drop, Wandering Son, and the list can go on and on.

It's a pretty sad commentary on Gargantia if the only non-static character in this show is Ledo.

You're misinterpreting what I was trying to say. My point is if they keep introducing more plot elements and characters in a 1 cour series, then the focus on Ledo and the already present characters gets diluted. I don't want that. Look at the shows you mentioned.

True Tears only developed 3 characters well. Ef developed about 5-6 characters well. Usagi Drop developed about 2-4 characters well. Kamisama Dolls didn't even conclude in a satisfying way because it's based on an ongoing manga. Too many characters did not have their arcs concluded. As a result only about 4-6 characters were REALLY developed. Tari Tari barely developed 4-6 characters, some of them in a very unsatisfying manner.

The point here is that 1 cour shows have to keep their focus tight. They can't diverge into all kinds of directions. Gargantia is one cour, and right now they have about 4-6 characters introduced that they have continually developed, most of all being Ledo. But there's also Amy, Bevel, Bellows, Pinion, Ridgett, etc. And we're only halfway through here!

If there's anything depressing about Gargantia is that it's only 1 cour long, since it does limit its scope. But since the scope has to be smaller, I am perfectly content with the direction of the series. I don't care much to see more mecha explosions as long as continue to get quality episodes like this and 4.

Terrestrial Dream
2013-05-14, 15:36
Well RRR, I believe your biggest problem with Gargantia was just having too many episodes with mostly slice of life elements. I am just gonna point out that combining the last two episodes into one would would be rushed and the pace would be off. One thing that I really liked what they have done with the last episodes was development of Ledo's language. As a result everything feels natural and flows very well.

Triple_R
2013-05-14, 16:33
Well, I've said my piece on this episode and the overall direction of this anime. We'll probably just be going in circles if I continue debating it at this point. I will say that I can understand why many like this episode and the overall direction of the anime as a whole.

Ultimately, where the anime goes from here will be what's most important to me. I'm hoping that the plot will kind of pick up a bit starting next episode. If it does, then my issues with this particular section of the anime will probably be soon forgotten.

Terrestrial Dream
2013-05-14, 16:47
That is a fair point, I do agree that if we don't get progression in the actual plot by next episode then something is seriously wrong.

SeijiSensei
2013-05-14, 17:48
My point is if they keep introducing more plot elements and characters in a 1 cour series, then the focus on Ledo and the already present characters gets diluted.

I'll offer Baccano! as a counter-example both in terms of the number of characters and in terms of the number of plot elements. Just when you think you have everything sorted out you get
the episode on board the Advenna Avis.
Yes, Gargantia is different because it focuses on Ledo and Amy rather than having multiple story threads like Baccano!. Still the pace of Gargantia is by design and not solely the consequence of working in the one-cour format.

Kirarakim
2013-05-14, 18:13
Baccano also managed to develop or make me love almost all of its characters.

So far I am only stuck on Ledo & Chamber. And I think Ledo is fantastic MC, one of the best of the year. But it would be nice if more was done with the other characters.

Reckoner
2013-05-14, 19:29
I'll offer Baccano! as a counter-example both in terms of the number of characters and in terms of the number of plot elements. Just when you think you have everything sorted out you get
the episode on board the Advenna Avis.
Yes, Gargantia is different because it focuses on Ledo and Amy rather than having multiple story threads like Baccano!. Still the pace of Gargantia is by design and not solely the consequence of working in the one-cour format.

First of all, I'm not sure how much this example counts because it is 16 episodes long, far from typical for a one cour series. Those 3-4 episodes really do matter.

Anyways, yes Baccano! is a lovely series, and it's probably one of the best examples around alongside Durarara that can balance out a huge cast. At the same time, not a lot of its characters strike me as being all that developed. They don't really grow over the course of the series. They're mostly known values. Nothing like we are seeing here with Ledo. Lots of entertaining characters for sure though.

Kirarakim
2013-05-14, 19:42
Baccano was 13 episodes with 3 OVAS or something like that.

Gargantia is also one cour with OVAS. It has practically the same amount of time as Baccano. Lets see how it uses it.

CJ_Walker
2013-05-14, 20:39
My expectations weren't unrealistic at all. They were perfectly reasonable given what the show itself was like for the first three episodes. Let me be clear - I'm not saying that I expected every episode to be like the first three. But I did expect most of them to be like that, which is why Episodes 4 through 6 being entirely different from Episodes 1 through 3 is a bit displeasing to me.

Also, I'm not focusing on just one factor. Aside from mecha, I also focused on world-building, drama, suspense, intrigue. That's certainly more than just one factor.





The anime world is absolutely loaded with nonsensical titles. Besides, titles alone often indicate little. Julius Caesar is not the main character of Shakespeare's "Julius Caesar". Similarly, just because this anime has "Gargantia" in the title doesn't mean Gargantia should be the only major setting in the show, or that people should expect it to be.




I'm not asking for that constantly. A lighthearted slice of life episode or two is fine. But 3 in a row in an one cour show that started like this one did really is a bit much.




That's exactly my point. We didn't need this episode and the last one. The anime could have been using its time better, imo.




I don't. It's becoming needlessly repetitive and very limited in scope. It's not developing its world or characters anywhere near as much as it could, or as much as I would like to see.

you've hit the nail on the head here, I feel the exact same way. But since gen only wrote the first episode or two, I guess its just not the show it was hyped up to be. I kinda get the feeling that the studio that greenlit this just wanted to use Gen's name to get more people to watch it.

for a 12 episode series, the lack of stuff happening is going to end up in a rushed series.

oh well.

I do like the setting and the animation, so it's still watchable. . .especially given the competition, i.e. code geass gundamn vampire super saiyan3 destiny. I dropped that show at episode 2(or was it three, whichever ep that shoko was rev-conned)

A lot of people like the show BECAUSE of the fanservice hehe. . .its just that people are too ashamed to admit it. I kinda knew from the wanna be beach episode fanservice, including the okama part that this show isn't something to be taken seriously like psycho pass or madoka or even chaos head (which was bad but still) with this show it like "ok I see that you're just not going to go anywhere I haven't seen a million times before, at least the animation is great, and the fanservice (which I usually abhor) is appealing, guess I'll just sit back and enjoy it, it's definitely not going to be best anime of the year or something lol not even close"


Also, I dont get what you guys have been getting your panties in a bunch over. Yes this show is using fanservice to sell it. . .and yes amy does look a little young. . .not as young as that one show where they looked like they were 10 (forgot the name but the opening scene was a shot of one of the ten year olds ass in daisy dukes in a overtly sexual shot )but still. I've accepted that some people (especially those on these forums) are very into that kind of stuff, trying to rationalize it isn't fooling anyone, the marketers obviously hit the nail on the head and hooked you with it! That definitely has nothing to do with "Japanese Culture" as it does with "We need people who are into these kinds of things (about 98% of the Anime watching community world wide) to buy our shit and give us money"

I've given up giving a crap about. . .you know asia's tendencies to objectify women wherever they can (look up "Scarlet Blade" on youtube. . .a Korean mmo ported to the west). It's a fact that they do, and in a way look down on the men watching thir shows: "yeah you can't get a sexy "waifu" in your real life,(or any kinda of waifu lol) so just "enjoy" yourself to these 2d waifus! Have fun guys"

At least the studios are thinking about you guys! If anything, I'm envious!

Terrestrial Dream
2013-05-14, 21:00
Good job generalizing man.

Destined_Fate
2013-05-14, 21:56
Hey now. At least Japan is far more willing to objectify men as well!:p

Baccano also managed to develop or make me love almost all of its characters.

So far I am only stuck on Ledo & Chamber. And I think Ledo is fantastic MC, one of the best of the year. But it would be nice if more was done with the other characters.

I dunno... I like Amy, Bellows, Ledo, and Chamber. Course Amy is the main heroine and love interest so she naturally has had a lot of screen time so it's pretty easy to like her as she's around all the time and being cool.

Iron Maw
2013-05-14, 22:04
you've hit the nail on the head here, I feel the exact same way. But since gen only wrote the first episode or two, I guess its just not the show it was hyped up to be. I kinda get the feeling that the studio that greenlit this just wanted to use Gen's name to get more people to watch it.


Just to clear up something here.

Gen came up with concept of this show with the Director I believe. He's also still the Chief Writer here even if every episode wasn't written himself as per usual. So any grievances or praises you have with the plot can still label at him.

justinstrife
2013-05-15, 02:32
Including one who appeared to be doing pelvic thrusts with an erect penis.

OK, I'm going to mention this just once. I have not liked Amy's character model from the beginning. She and Ledo are supposed to both be sixteen, but he looks 24, and she looks 12. Her behavior and speech often seem a bit juvenile as well. As for Ledo, though he looks much older than 16, his virginity and (dissolving) asexuality also place convenient limits on his maturity.

So I find scenes where three supposedly sixteen-year-old girls dance provocatively in front of a bunch of inebriated older men disturbing. Drawing the girls to look young for their ages makes it even worse. I figured that after the bikini episode we would leave the fanservice behind and return to the main story this week. I was disappointed to say the least.

Whenever I see Ledo with Bellows, as in this episode, they always seem a more likely pairing than Ledo and Amy. Bellows also seems attracted to Ledo despite their supposed difference in ages. I don't think it's simply harem-building; Amy is the obvious love interest. However I do think Bellows's interest in Ledo includes more than just becoming salvage partners.

Trust me. I'm as big a fan of Bellows as anyone, but unfortunately her character type(both physically and mentally), don't usually win the romance pairings. It's sad really, but reality in anime.

So I will gladly take her if Ledo doesn't want her. I at least know how to treat her well and appreciate ALL of her qualities. :D :D

Triple_R
2013-05-15, 03:28
I dunno... I like Amy, Bellows, Ledo, and Chamber. Course Amy is the main heroine and love interest so she naturally has had a lot of screen time so it's pretty easy to like her as she's around all the time and being cool.

There's a difference between liking a character and thinking s/he's well-developed.

I like Amy and Bellows, but neither of them strike me as well-developed (and given how much screen-time Amy's had, that's a bit disconcerting to me). I certainly don't presume to speak for Kirarakim, but maybe Kirarakim feels the same way.

Kirarakim
2013-05-15, 07:32
There's a difference between liking a character and thinking s/he's well-developed.

I like Amy and Bellows, but neither of them strike me as well-developed (and given how much screen-time Amy's had, that's a bit disconcerting to me). I certainly don't presume to speak for Kirarakim, but maybe Kirarakim feels the same way.

Yeah I like Amy well enough, there isn't anything I dislike about her. But when I think about it there isn't much to her character. She is a genki girl who supports the main character.

Unfortunately for all the characters besides Ledo they don't really go beyond a basic characteristic or two, we don't really get to know them.

Although I will say with the exception of Amy's two friends (who are a waste of space at this point in my opinion). I do like that at least the other female characters: Amy, Bellows, and Ridget have very distinct personalities and at least they aren't your typical anime ones. Although it would be nice if we got to know them a bit more.

And this goes for the guys too: Bevel, Pinion, the doctor, and that guy who I am not even sure of his name who was directing Chamber.

I kind of feel that the show might only develop these characters in respect to their relationship to Ledo. That is fine and all but it doesn't really make them stand out as compelling characters in their own right.

Casshern
2013-05-15, 11:18
Is it time to crush the cutie yet?

Jan-Poo
2013-05-15, 12:08
There are quite a lot of characters in this show that have a specific entry in the official site's character list (http://gargantia.jp/#character) but that barely had any lines so far.

If it wasn't for that, we wouldn't even know their names. Palinuri and Palaem, for example (Rackage's slaves).

Oldam's assistant, which doesn't even have a name apparently.
Then there's Maita, Pinion's mechanic, which only appeared in a very few shots.

Then there's a few guys from what appear to be some sort of government body. We only know that they are there when important decisions about the fleet must be taken.

It also appears that there will be a new character named Storia, which looks like some kind of nurse.

The guy that Kirarakim mentioned apparently is called Joe.

Destined_Fate
2013-05-15, 12:15
Well, I know that Amy loves her brother, was the first to accept Ledo, doesn't judge Ledo, is very nice, helps Ledo understand the culture of the world, isn't offended by some of the heartless things Ledo unintentionally says even about her brothers, does a ton of deliveries thus everyone knows her, helps out Ledo with everything, has close friends that tease her, she is extremely reliable, can use the kite to fly very well, she loves to have a good time, she can dance, tries to teach Ledo to swim, makes it known when she doesn't like something such as Ledo's living conditions, clearly has a crush on Ledo, and the such.

Triple_R
2013-05-15, 14:27
Well, I know that Amy loves her brother, was the first to accept Ledo, doesn't judge Ledo, is very nice, helps Ledo understand the culture of the world, isn't offended by some of the heartless things Ledo unintentionally says even about her brothers, does a ton of deliveries thus everyone knows her, helps out Ledo with everything, has close friends that tease her, she is extremely reliable, can use the kite to fly very well, she loves to have a good time, she can dance, tries to teach Ledo to swim, makes it known when she doesn't like something such as Ledo's living conditions, clearly has a crush on Ledo, and the such.

Exactly, she doesn't have a darker side at all. She also doesn't seem to have much in the way of character flaws in general. She's a pure genki girl, only without any of the common flaws held by the archetype (she's not pushy, she's not particularly airheaded/oblivious).

We never see her conflicted. We never see her really challenged. We never see her melancholic. She never complains for her own sake, but only out of moral consideration every once in a while. She's just constantly bubbly and good-natured and supportive.

When I raise Gen, it's not because I expect everything with his name attached to it to be "dark". But I do expect a certain heft to his writing. I expect his characters to have some real depth and complexity to them, because his more important characters typically do.

andyjay729
2013-05-15, 14:56
TBH, Gen does seem to have some issues with pacing in general. Yes, Mami got "Mamied" in Episode 3, but most of Madoka's big revelations came only around the halfway point, and of course Homura's backstory was only revealed in Episode 10. And let's not forget how Kyoko goes from wanting to kill Sayaka to wanting to save her in only one episode.

And in Psycho-Pass, Akane and co. didn't confirm that Makishima was their man until the halfway point, and that's also when the audience learns something's fishy with Sybil. That's why I gave both shows 8/10 ratings.

So...I kind of agree that Episode 5 seemed a bit superfluous given the events of 6, which was overall much more meaningful to me. If they had saved 5 for an OAV or something, then this story would actually be moving close to the normal schedule.

I also agree that I really wish they would've talked about Amy and co's backstories, or at least as much about them as necessary. But now that one of Gen's plot twists seems to be materializing, I have to wonder if he may be gearing up for a kill-em-all ending after all. The characters may make us feel good, but they don't have a lot of substance to them...so it won't hurt for too long if they die like ants.

Reckoner
2013-05-15, 15:06
Gen's pacing is actually one of his strongest aspects. His stories don't have sudden rushed endings like we often see in so many anime. Psycho Pass is a good example, it would've been too easy to have gone off in a blaze of glory in that show, but he didn't and made sure everything flowed logically and sensibly to the very end.

hai_san
2013-05-16, 04:59
Or perhaps we are all wrong and Gen is making his first very normal slice of life anime ? ;)

I know chances are low but who knows? :p

andyjay729
2013-05-16, 08:20
Or perhaps we are all wrong and Gen is making his first very normal slice of life anime ? ;)

I know chances are low but who knows? :p

With that last scene in this episode I have to doubt that. If it was just a fakeout, that would be criminally bad storytelling.

LKK
2013-05-16, 08:38
^^ I don't think that last scene shows us a Hidxxx. I think it's a whale squid that Bellows mentioned during the festival dinner. My reasoning goes back to a speculation I made weeks ago in the Speculation thread. I speculated that when the humans left Earth, they took with them an assortment of plants and animals to help establish a viable colony. While in space, the plants and animals mutated and evolved into the Hidxx. I think the whale squid is an evolutionary ancestor to the Hidxx but isn't a Hidxx yet. My guess is that the Hidxx's Earth origins will be episode 7's reveal.

Jan-Poo
2013-05-16, 08:50
With that last scene in this episode I have to doubt that. If it was just a fakeout, that would be criminally bad storytelling.

Most people here think that that was just one of those giant squids that was mentioned by Bellows before. A close relative of the Hideauze but not threatening to humanity.

A "false alarm" wouldn't be bad writing at all, it's been used successfully in many famous works. Though I must admit that if there is a "false alarm" there must be a "real alarm" in the future.

We already had a combat scene at the start of the series and then another during the pirate attack. It's safe to assume that there will be more of those, but so far it doesn't seem that they'll be the main focus of this series.

Diveman
2013-05-16, 11:12
My only complaint about the series so far is that well, these 2 last episodes haven't really said much or helped develop the story. Sure Ledo is learning some new stuff, but so far I can' really see where this series is going other than "slice of space-life" more or less. I do enjoy the character development Ledo is going through, but it still feels like not much is happening.

Even the "implied" villans got owned in a matter of seconds.

Also, I read Gen was only involved in the script for episode 1 while the rest aren't being done by him.

relentlessflame
2013-05-16, 11:31
Also, I read Gen was only involved in the script for episode 1 while the rest aren't being done by him.
This is relatively common practice in the industry. He's the Lead Writer and did the broad Story Planning, but other writers work on the screenplay/script for some of the individual episodes. This is basically a way of spreading the workload. I guess it's a bit different than some of his previous anime where he was more directly involved in the screenplay/script for every episode, but the Story Planner typically is still coordinating the broad direction of the plot and what needs to happen in each episode.

Birdway
2013-05-16, 20:37
The show never lied about its contents.

Guys its your own fault, didn't Urobuchi said he wish to write a kid's show?

Let the guy be and don't step on the way of a writer's creativity.

This is relatively common practice in the industry. He's the Lead Writer and did the broad Story Planning, but other writers work on the screenplay/script for some of the individual episodes. This is basically a way of spreading the workload. I guess it's a bit different than some of his previous anime where he was more directly involved in the screenplay/script for every episode, but the Story Planner typically is still coordinating the broad direction of the plot and what needs to happen in each episode.
Wasn't this the same for Railgun anime series?
Those script writer aren't there just for show in the credits.

Triple_R
2013-05-16, 21:35
The show never lied about its contents.

Guys its your own fault, didn't Urobuchi said he wish to write a kid's show?

No he never. But in any event, Urobuchi made comments about Madoka Magica that were designed to mask or be ironic about the overall aim/tone of that show. So you shouldn't blame people for not taking everything Urobuchi says at face value given his track record.

So no, it's not our "own fault". Some of us have good reasons for being disappointed in some of the recent content of this show.

Gravitas Free Zone
2013-05-16, 23:49
Or, he may have masterfully trolled everyone again... by telling the truth?

andyjay729
2013-05-17, 00:25
I think he might be half right. It probably won't be nearly as dark as most of his material, but with last week's cliffhanger, I still think the second half of this show will be a bit more interesting than the first. Not that the first hasn't held my interest, especially in a "daww" sense.

Kanon
2013-05-17, 11:48
No he never. But in any event, Urobuchi made comments about Madoka Magica that were designed to mask or be ironic about the overall aim/tone of that show. So you shouldn't blame people for not taking everything Urobuchi says at face value given his track record.

So no, it's not our "own fault". Some of us have good reasons for being disappointed in some of the recent content of this show.

He did, actually (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2013-04-18/madoka-magica-and-fate/zero-urobuchi-plans-project-for-kids).

Urobuchi only lied about Madoka which was a very special project (we weren't supposed to know he was involved) and nobody bought it anyway so he had no reason to attempt to pull that off again. Once instance shouldn't have be enough to turn into him the boy who cried wolf. He and the staff had no reason to lie about Gargantia, and they haven't. It may not be your fault but it certainly isn't his either.

Destined_Fate
2013-05-17, 16:44
Exactly, she doesn't have a darker side at all. She also doesn't seem to have much in the way of character flaws in general. She's a pure genki girl, only without any of the common flaws held by the archetype (she's not pushy, she's not particularly airheaded/oblivious).

We never see her conflicted. We never see her really challenged. We never see her melancholic. She never complains for her own sake, but only out of moral consideration every once in a while. She's just constantly bubbly and good-natured and supportive.

When I raise Gen, it's not because I expect everything with his name attached to it to be "dark". But I do expect a certain heft to his writing. I expect his characters to have some real depth and complexity to them, because his more important characters typically do.

Eh.

Not everyone needs a darker side, she's a young and bright girl. It's not like she has anything in her life to make her darker as she's happy. Now if **** hits the fan than she will have a reason.

As of right now giving her a darker side or past would be too forceful as it isn't needed.

She seems quite challenged when it comes to Ledo from what I've seen and hasn't really been able to tell him how she feels because she's human and is confused. After all, falling for the guy that fell from the sky who had kidnapped her earlier? Yeah...

Triple_R
2013-05-17, 18:03
He did, actually (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2013-04-18/madoka-magica-and-fate/zero-urobuchi-plans-project-for-kids).

... So why do people keep bringing up this quote about Gen saying that this show is for young adults on the verge of entering society (i.e. leaving high school, presumably) or those that have just entered into society?

That's not "kids". "Kids" are those 14 and under.


Urobuchi only lied about Madoka which was a very special project (we weren't supposed to know he was involved) and nobody bought it anyway so he had no reason to attempt to pull that off again.

Wouldn't that actually give him a reason to try to pull it off again?


Once instance shouldn't have be enough to turn into him the boy who cried wolf.

It's enough so people shouldn't be faulted for not taking what Gen says at face value. He may or not be lying. He may or may not be spinning things.


He and the staff had no reason to lie about Gargantia, and they haven't.

Don't you think that's an awfully presumptive statement for you to make at the one half mark?



Eh.

Not everyone needs a darker side,

If a character doesn't have a darker side, then that character at least needs some real character flaws, imo. What character flaws does Amy have?


she's a young and bright girl. It's not like she has anything in her life to make her darker as she's happy.

What about her brother's condition? That's not exactly something to be happy over, is it?


As of right now giving her a darker side or past would be too forceful as it isn't needed.

I strongly disagree. Amy having a darker side would make her a much more well-rounded, well-developed, believable and interesting character.


She seems quite challenged when it comes to Ledo from what I've seen and hasn't really been able to tell him how she feels because she's human and is confused. After all, falling for the guy that fell from the sky who had kidnapped her earlier? Yeah...

You gotta be kidding me, dude. Amy and Ledo's relationship has been as smooth as it possibly could have been. She hasn't been challenged at all when it comes to Ledo. She has adapted very quickly and effectively to him, and has managed to influence him tremendously in only a few episodes.

Jan-Poo
2013-05-17, 19:10
It's enough so people shouldn't be faulted for not taking what Gen says at face value. He may or not be lying. He may or may not be spinning things.


So you don't trust Gen Urobuchi but you feel entitled to be disappointed if your expectations of what you think he's going to do in spite of what he says aren't met?

andyjay729
2013-05-17, 19:35
TLDR: It's damn near impossible to tell where this show will go, or what exactly is going through the mind of the piece of work known as Gen Urobuchi.

I still think that the cliffhanger at the end of 6 means that if you thought the first half of this show was lame, you'll be much more pleased with the next half. At this point the show's reception could go either way.

Kanon
2013-05-18, 11:35
... So why do people keep bringing up this quote about Gen saying that this show is for young adults on the verge of entering society (i.e. leaving high school, presumably) or those that have just entered into society?

That's not "kids". "Kids" are those 14 and under.

There seems to be a misunderstanding. The show for kids isn't Gargantia but a completely different thing. Not sure why it was brought up in the first place, but it's a good indication Urobuchi is trying to branch out as a writer.

It's enough so people shouldn't be faulted for not taking what Gen says at face value. He may or not be lying. He may or may not be spinning things.

It was just one time. We shouldn't distrust everything he says just because of that. It's pretty sad to be branded a liar just because you attempted to mislead people once. I'll keep assuming he was telling the truth until proven otherwise.


Don't you think that's an awfully presumptive statement for you to make at the one half mark?

We're already half-way through the series and it's been exactly as Urobuchi said it would be. Furthermore, I see no indication there will be a drastic change of tone. Why should I think otherwise?

HandofFate
2013-05-18, 15:24
I don't get the action that happened near the end where Ledo pushed(?) the other girl back or something?

What did he do? Didn't look like it was attacking her, rather it seemed a far distance away when it was spotted.

I'm also confused if it just appeared there swimming above them, or it came out when Ledo opened up the sunken ship.

Don't think its just a squid. Chamber so far has been very accurate in his analysis.
In the beginning when Ledo got sucked into the wormhole, him & Chamber had an enemy wrapped around him right? Makes sense that it would pop up sooner or later if it went into the wormhole with him.

Anh_Minh
2013-05-18, 15:28
I don't get the action that happened near the end where Ledo pushed(?) the other girl back or something?

What did he do? Didn't look like it was attacking her, rather it seemed a far distance away when it was spotted.

I'm also confused if it just appeared there swimming above them, or it came out when Ledo opened up the sunken ship.

Don't think its just a squid. Chamber so far has been very accurate in his analysis.
In the beginning when Ledo got sucked into the wormhole, him & Chamber had an enemy wrapped around him right? Makes sense that it would pop up sooner or later if it went into the wormhole with him.

Either pushed her out of the squid's line of attack, or just away from him because he's the biggest threat to the Hideauze, so it's natural he'd get attacked first. That way she won't be caught in it.

Triple_R
2013-05-18, 17:33
So you don't trust Gen Urobuchi but you feel entitled to be disappointed if your expectations of what you think he's going to do in spite of what he says aren't met?

That's a ridiculous mischaracterization and oversimplification of my position.

My expectations are shaped by the following:

1. Gen Urobuchi's actual resume of work and his reputation.
2. The actual content of the first three episodes of the anime.

It's reasonable for my expectations to be shaped by the above.

The fact that Gen has intentionally attempted to mislead audiences in the past should at the very least mean that what he says about his works before/during their airing should be taken with a big grain of salt.


It was just one time.

So what? He's only done a handful of anime projects in total. One time is enough to take what he says with a big grain of salt.

We shouldn't distrust everything he says just because of that. It's pretty sad to be branded a liar just because you attempted to mislead people once.

Nobody's branding him a liar. :heh: Besides, there's nothing necessarily wrong with a writer trying to pull the wool over the eyes of viewers, and skew their expectations in order to later surprise them.


We're already half-way through the series and it's been exactly as Urobuchi said it would be.

There's plenty of anime shows that get much darker in the 2nd half than what they were in the 1st half.

Besides, saying that producers haven't been misleading about a show when a show is only half-finished is truly a case of jumping to conclusions, as you don't know what will happen in the 2nd half of this show.

apotheosis
2013-05-18, 18:11
One time is enough to make everyone second-guess what he says. And he knows it.

He can milk it either way. (Some) viewers will be wary of a second occurence the entire series, even if it never happens, which maintains a state of tension despite the material itself.

He'll attract both the viewers who enjoy slice of life & those who want the cast's lives sliced apart ;) It's marketing brilliance, I tell you.

It's a perfect position to troll from, whether he pulls out the bloody axe or leaves it snugly sheathed on his back.

Jan-Poo
2013-05-18, 20:38
That's a ridiculous mischaracterization and oversimplification of my position.

My expectations are shaped by the following:

1. Gen Urobuchi's actual resume of work and his reputation.
2. The actual content of the first three episodes of the anime.

It's reasonable for my expectations to be shaped by the above.

The fact that Gen has intentionally attempted to mislead audiences in the past should at the very least mean that what he says about his works before/during their airing should be taken with a big grain of salt.


"Taking with a grain of salt" in my book doesn't mean to disregard someone's words to the point where you consider more probable your own speculations.
Because you know it's entirely possible that Urobuchi didn't lie this time, and his "tricks" would grow stale pretty fast if he kept doing that. Does he really want to do that twice so that everyone won't believe him ever again?

Anyway at the very least you should similarly take "with a grain of salt" your expectations and not be so surprised if they aren't met.

Expectations which, by the way, aren't agreed upon by many people here which never thought those first 3 episodes ever suggested something different from what we are getting. And it's not like we don't know Urobuchi's reputation.

Triple_R
2013-05-18, 22:11
"Taking with a grain of salt" in my book doesn't mean to disregard someone's words to the point where you consider more probable your own speculations.

I never said I outright disregarded them. But there's ways those words could be made to fit with a more dramatic and less lighthearted show than what we've seen in the last three episodes of Gargantia (i.e. the words may not actually be a lie, but a truth stated cleverly to create false expectations). Given Gen's existing body of work, and what he said before/during the airing of Madoka Magica, there's nothing unreasonable about thinking that there's a decent chance that this is what he would do.


Because you know it's entirely possible that Urobuchi didn't lie this time, and his "tricks" would grow stale pretty fast if he kept doing that.

So according to Kanon, one time alone means nothing, and now according to you, two times means it's already going stale. Frankly, I think you're both being a bit extreme.


Does he really want to do that twice so that everyone won't believe him ever again?

A lot of people didn't believe him the first time. Which could provide motivation for trying to pull it off on a second attempt.


Anyway at the very least you should similarly take "with a grain of salt" your expectations and not be so surprised if they aren't met.

Where have I expressed such extreme surprise? You're greatly exaggerating my words and my position here.


Expectations which, by the way, aren't agreed upon by many people here which never thought those first 3 episodes ever suggested something different from what we are getting.

What counts for "many"?

Here (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4678147&postcount=119) are (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4677770&postcount=106) four (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4677929&postcount=114) different (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4679418&postcount=178) people who share views very similar to mine on the recent content of this anime in comparison to the content that came in the first two or three episodes. And all of those posts are from this one episode thread. So these 4 (which become 5, if you add me) are a fair number given the total number of people that have made posts on this thread.

So I think you've overstated your argument here, and I also think that you aren't being fair to those who disagree with you about the recent direction of this anime show.

Jan-Poo
2013-05-19, 09:36
I never said I outright disregarded them. But there's ways those words could be made to fit with a more dramatic and less lighthearted show than what we've seen in the last three episodes of Gargantia (i.e. the words may not actually be a lie, but a truth stated cleverly to create false expectations). Given Gen's existing body of work, and what he said before/during the airing of Madoka Magica, there's nothing unreasonable about thinking that there's a decent chance that this is what he would do.

The problem is your implication that somehow this show "created false expectations".
There is no objective proof that such things exist. Your arguments are based on things that I'd rather call self-deceptions, and you only have to blame yourself for that.

One of your point is that "Urobuchi always wrote a certain kind of story, so I expect his next story to be of the same kind."
This is a plain inductive method (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inductive_method), which is proven to be often unreliable.

It was then shown that it was stated from the beginning what kind of direction this story would take. The objective fact is that this claim exist, the supposed lie is only a speculation from your part.

You cannot accuse them for creating false expectations if they will do exactly what they said. You can blame them for lying, but you cannot blame them for defying your expectation of them lying.
If you decide to not trust them, that's your choice only, and you can't say that you haven't been warned. You were, you just decided to not give much credit to that warn.

Kanon
2013-05-19, 10:42
There's plenty of anime shows that get much darker in the 2nd half than what they were in the 1st half.

Besides, saying that producers haven't been misleading about a show when a show is only half-finished is truly a case of jumping to conclusions, as you don't know what will happen in the 2nd half of this show.

Hold up - they never said it was going to be all rainbows, sunshine, and boobies. Only that this work would have a different feel than your usual Butcher fare. That doesn't mean it won't get darker in the second half (the end of this episode indicates there is some drama incoming), only that the show as a whole will be different from what you'd usually expected from Urobuchi. My understanding is that it will be an uplifting work. I'm not jumping to conclusions, I'm just believing what they're telling me... is that wrong?

Triple_R
2013-05-19, 12:43
The problem is your implication that somehow this show "created false expectations".

It certainly seemed to do that, for some of us, as I made clear in my last reply to you on this thread.

If only one person or two people feel that their expectations for a show aren't being met, then maybe "self-deception" is at play. But if 4 or 5 or more people feel that, then maybe the anime and its producers really could have been clearer about what type of show it is, and where it was intending to go.


Your arguments are based on things that I'd rather call self-deceptions, and you only have to blame yourself for that.

Is it a "self-deception" to say that the first three episodes of this anime is loaded with mecha action, plenty of drama, plenty of intrigue, plenty of suspense, and plenty of extensive-world building?

No, that's not a self-deception at all. Rather, it's a fact. The way an anime presents itself in its first three episodes will obviously shape the expectations of many viewers going forward. This is definitely not something that viewers should be faulted for, as you are currently attempting to fault them for.


One of your point is that "Urobuchi always wrote a certain kind of story, so I expect his next story to be of the same kind."

No, that's not my point. My point is that Urobuchi has certain tendencies and strengths as a writer, as displayed by his resume of work. While a writer writing against his/her tendencies isn't unbelievable, readers/viewers shouldn't be faulted for expecting to see those tendencies to at least some degree. But more important are Urobuchi's strengths as a writer, which any fan of his would obviously expect to see in his work, and that's why I pointed to the disappointing lack of depth to Amy's character.


It was then shown that it was stated from the beginning what kind of direction this story would take.

What was stated by Urobuchi is not incompatible with what some of us expect of Gargantia, as I've argued numerous times before.


The objective fact is that this claim exist, the supposed lie is only a speculation from your part.

I never claimed that he is lying. I'm saying that he might be trying to create false expectations. You don't necessarily have to lie to do that.


You cannot accuse them for creating false expectations if they will do exactly what they said.

You really think that viewer expectations should be shaped strictly by what producers say about the show? You don't think that actual episode content, or promotional imagery, or PVs, or the reputations/bodies of work of the members of the production staff, should play any role whatsoever in shaping viewer expectation?

If so, then I completely and strongly disagree with you. And it should be noted that any anime blogger that does season previews would similarly disagree with you, as they all take all of the above into account when it comes to their expectations for an upcoming anime show. Comments by the production staff are only a very small part of what shapes viewer expectations, even when people do believe those comments to be entirely honest and trustworthy.


You can blame them for lying, but you cannot blame them for defying your expectation of them lying.

That's not what I'm blaming them for.



Hold up - they never said it was going to be all rainbows, sunshine, and boobies. Only that this work would have a different feel than your usual Butcher fare. That doesn't mean it won't get darker in the second half (the end of this episode indicates there is some drama incoming), only that the show as a whole will be different from what you'd usually expected from Urobuchi. My understanding is that it will be an uplifting work.

Madoka Magica was an uplifting work to me. At least, it's final episodes were.

Anyway, it's fine if you believe them. I'm just saying that you should at least be open to the possibility that their comments are meant to lull viewers into a false sense of security. Again, that's not even necessarily "lying", per se.

Jan-Poo
2013-05-19, 20:25
It certainly seemed to do that, for some of us, as I made clear in my last reply to you on this thread.

If only one person or two people feel that their expectations for a show aren't being met, then maybe "self-deception" is at play. But if 4 or 5 or more people feel that, then maybe the anime and its producers really could have been clearer about what type of show it is, and where it was intending to go.

Unless that is due to the fact that this is a story penned by Urobuchi, which seems the case to me.

What I mean to say is that since the very first episodes I had the feeling that many people were interpreting what they saw through their expectations of what Urobuchi has done in the past, even if in my opinion such interpretations deviate too much from what I consider an objective analysis.

An example is how the initial space battle was seen as a typical "urobutcher" style. While to me it was a standard feature of like 90% of space anime I've seen.


Is it a "self-deception" to say that the first three episodes of this anime is loaded with mecha action, plenty of drama, plenty of intrigue, plenty of suspense, and plenty of extensive-world building?

The problem is whether that is the main focus of the story or the background setting.

The show didn't spend much time before getting to the part where Ledo is taken away from his epic galactic battle scenario and into the peaceful Gargantia. Pair to that the fact that the very title of the show is "Gargantia" and you could pretty well understand that the main focus of this story is the peaceful Gargantia and not the epic galactic war of the Alliance.

Of course I'm not denying that mecha battle against squidly creatures will be a part of this show, but I don't think that that is the point of this show, and therefore it's only natural that a good part of it will be spent on showing the daily life of the titular Gargantia.


No, that's not my point. My point is that Urobuchi has certain tendencies and strengths as a writer, as displayed by his resume of work. While a writer writing against his/her tendencies isn't unbelievable, readers/viewers shouldn't be faulted for expecting to see those tendencies to at least some degree. But more important are Urobuchi's strengths as a writer, which any fan of his would obviously expect to see in his work, and that's why I pointed to the disappointing lack of depth to Amy's character.

I don't agree with your absolute certainty that Urobuchi can't go against his tendencies or if those tendencies exist to begin with. But I think you really are forgetting that he is not the only writer of this show and I am fairly sure he left the most light-hearted parts to others. Specifically Amy is probably a character that he didn't even touch.